Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 20:09:39 GMT -5
Bob wrote, "You're forgetting that for most of 2 millennia ending about 1950 the Christian world held Jews responsible for killing their savior. Russia and Hitler embarrassed themselves so badly over the Holocaust that they decided Jews weren't a religion after all, but a race. Problem is, the majority of genes in the Jewish world population did not originate in Palestine."
Are there such a thing as Jews? Are they "God's people"?
Awfully big questions. Modern "Jews" are about 70% Semitic/Middle East and 30% European. This is not surprising as people have "converted" to Judaism and become "Jews" in a religious sense over more than 2,500 years.
The two groups, Ashkenazic and Sephardic, are closely related.
So you can become a "Jew" by converting or marrying one. But at the end of the day - there's still a person who is genetically a Jew and who hails from Palestine and is of the "seed of Abraham."
Are they "God's people"? Paul wrote, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Rom.3:1-2) But the Jews were a metaphor for God's people, in the same way Israel was a metaphor for the "promised land", Jerusalem was a metaphor for the holy city and the Temple was a metaphor for the God's sanctuary/inner sanctum.
And two promises God gave the Jews - they would be a blessing to the world (note their contribution in many human endeavors) and they would be cursed and scattered into all the nations when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. In a similar vein, the return of the Jew to Palestine ("all of them" - Ezekiel) would signify the "fulfillment" of the Gentiles.
So yes, there is a Jew, and yes, the bible account of them is believable because their history is still being played out before us to this day.
|
|
|
Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 5, 2015 20:25:21 GMT -5
Could there be a distinction between "Jew" and "Israelite"...
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 5, 2015 21:09:05 GMT -5
Bob wrote, " You're forgetting that for most of 2 millennia ending about 1950 the Christian world held Jews responsible for killing their savior. Russia and Hitler embarrassed themselves so badly over the Holocaust that they decided Jews weren't a religion after all, but a race. Problem is, the majority of genes in the Jewish world population did not originate in Palestine."Are there such a thing as Jews? Are they "God's people"? Awfully big questions. Modern "Jews" are about 70% Semitic/Middle East and 30% European. Your statistics are too simple to answer those questions. First of all, not all "Semites" are Jews -- most of them are Arabs and descendants of other non-Jewish Semitic people. But anyway, I didn't say most Jews were European or anything else -- I said the majority of their collective gene pool did not originate in Palestine. As statistics go, a Jewish woman whose mother was 50% Jewish, and who is married to a gentile, and has a daughter ... the daughter will be called Jewish despite the fact that only 15% or her genes are Jewish. And her daughter will be called Jewish in the same circumstances even though her genes are only 7% Jewish. In the same manner, by now, a lot of Jews will carry some of Genghis Khan's genes, since it is estimated that about 15% of the world's population has him as a forefather.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 5, 2015 21:16:03 GMT -5
Could there be a distinction between "Jew" and "Israelite"... There is a distinction, really. Israelites were citizens of the ancient kingdom of Israel. They were not Jews. Jews were the citizens of Judah. This happened when Solomon's kingdom was split upon his death. The descendants of the kingdom of Israel are the long-lost tribes of Israel, Israel having been conquered and scattered some time before Jerusalem was conquered. It was the Judean/Jewish exile that returned to Palestine and is recognized as the Jews of today. But there are recognizable descendants of Israel in the present state of Israel. They generally live in the vicinity of ancient Samaria, and aren't really recognized by Jews as the founders of the present state of Israel. Samaria was the capital city of Israel -- probably why they are still in that region. The Jews don't call them Jews, but I forget what word they have for them.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 5, 2015 23:52:40 GMT -5
Could there be a distinction between "Jew" and "Israelite"... There is a distinction, really. Israelites were citizens of the ancient kingdom of Israel. They were not Jews. Jews were the citizens of Judah. This happened when Solomon's kingdom was split upon his death. The descendants of the kingdom of Israel are the long-lost tribes of Israel, Israel having been conquered and scattered some time before Jerusalem was conquered. It was the Judean/Jewish exile that returned to Palestine and is recognized as the Jews of today. But there are recognizable descendants of Israel in the present state of Israel. They generally live in the vicinity of ancient Samaria, and aren't really recognized by Jews as the founders of the present state of Israel. Samaria was the capital city of Israel -- probably why they are still in that region. The Jews don't call them Jews, but I forget what word they have for them. Then with Jews being the tribe of Judah where are all the other tribes. I had a friend who argued that the dont know who they are. That they were scattered across europe and Britain. She belonged to British Israelism.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 5, 2015 23:57:08 GMT -5
Bob wrote, " You're forgetting that for most of 2 millennia ending about 1950 the Christian world held Jews responsible for killing their savior. Russia and Hitler embarrassed themselves so badly over the Holocaust that they decided Jews weren't a religion after all, but a race. Problem is, the majority of genes in the Jewish world population did not originate in Palestine."Are there such a thing as Jews? Are they "God's people"? Awfully big questions. Modern "Jews" are about 70% Semitic/Middle East and 30% European. This is not surprising as people have "converted" to Judaism and become "Jews" in a religious sense over more than 2,500 years. The two groups, Ashkenazic and Sephardic, are closely related. So you can become a "Jew" by converting or marrying one. But at the end of the day - there's still a person who is genetically a Jew and who hails from Palestine and is of the "seed of Abraham." Are they "God's people"? Paul wrote, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Rom.3:1-2) But the Jews were a metaphor for God's people, in the same way Israel was a metaphor for the "promised land", Jerusalem was a metaphor for the holy city and the Temple was a metaphor for the God's sanctuary/inner sanctum. And two promises God gave the Jews - they would be a blessing to the world (note their contribution in many human endeavors) and they would be cursed and scattered into all the nations when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. In a similar vein, the return of the Jew to Palestine ("all of them" - Ezekiel) would signify the "fulfillment" of the Gentiles. So yes, there is a Jew, and yes, the bible account of them is believable because their history is still being played out before us to this day. According to scripture we are in the time of the gentiles. Luke 21:24
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 1:20:21 GMT -5
Quote - "According to scripture we are in the time of the gentiles. Luke 21:24"
"They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
This tells me that the "... the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." because Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands again. This means, as I see it, that the Gentiles are now finished and will suffer as the Jews once suffered.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 6, 2015 1:34:39 GMT -5
There is a distinction, really. Israelites were citizens of the ancient kingdom of Israel. They were not Jews. Jews were the citizens of Judah. This happened when Solomon's kingdom was split upon his death. The descendants of the kingdom of Israel are the long-lost tribes of Israel, Israel having been conquered and scattered some time before Jerusalem was conquered. It was the Judean/Jewish exile that returned to Palestine and is recognized as the Jews of today. But there are recognizable descendants of Israel in the present state of Israel. They generally live in the vicinity of ancient Samaria, and aren't really recognized by Jews as the founders of the present state of Israel. Samaria was the capital city of Israel -- probably why they are still in that region. The Jews don't call them Jews, but I forget what word they have for them. Then with Jews being the tribe of Judah where are all the other tribes. I had a friend who argued that the dont know who they are. That they were scattered across europe and Britain. She belonged to British Israelism. Most of the other tribes were scattered long before the Judeans/Jews were exiled. But unlike the Jews, the other tribes were not ever given the opportunity to return to (ancient) Israel and so became assimilated into other populations. I wouldn't expect that Europe and Britain were the main recipients of these outcast Israelites -- possibly some south European populations, but much more apt to be present day Arab and African populations of today. The Jews didn't migrate throughout Europe in large numbers until the Roman Empire incorporated Palestine into their realm.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 1:35:46 GMT -5
Quote - "There is a distinction, really. Israelites were citizens of the ancient kingdom of Israel. They were not Jews. Jews were the citizens of Judah. This happened when Solomon's kingdom was split upon his death. The descendants of the kingdom of Israel are the long-lost tribes of Israel, Israel having been conquered and scattered some time before Jerusalem was conquered. It was the Judean/Jewish exile that returned to Palestine and is recognized as the Jews of today.
But there are recognizable descendants of Israel in the present state of Israel. They generally live in the vicinity of ancient Samaria, and aren't really recognized by Jews as the founders of the present state of Israel. Samaria was the capital city of Israel -- probably why they are still in that region. The Jews don't call them Jews, but I forget what word they have for them."
Some definitions are in order. By "Jew" most people I know mean the descendants of Abraham. The lost tribes of "Israel" would also be "Jew." Judah gave the NAME Jew, but not the race "Jew." Thus: Jew to most means "Those people who are descendents of the twelve tribes of Jacob, or who are significantly related to these people." Another more tenuous definition would be "Those who observe the practices of Judaism." This latter definition doesn't make a lot of sense because there are so many secular genetic Jews around.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 6, 2015 1:42:35 GMT -5
Bob wrote, " You're forgetting that for most of 2 millennia ending about 1950 the Christian world held Jews responsible for killing their savior. Russia and Hitler embarrassed themselves so badly over the Holocaust that they decided Jews weren't a religion after all, but a race. Problem is, the majority of genes in the Jewish world population did not originate in Palestine."Are there such a thing as Jews? Are they "God's people"? Awfully big questions. Modern "Jews" are about 70% Semitic/Middle East and 30% European. This is not surprising as people have "converted" to Judaism and become "Jews" in a religious sense over more than 2,500 years. The two groups, Ashkenazic and Sephardic, are closely related. So you can become a "Jew" by converting or marrying one. But at the end of the day - there's still a person who is genetically a Jew and who hails from Palestine and is of the "seed of Abraham." Are they "God's people"? Paul wrote, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Rom.3:1-2) But the Jews were a metaphor for God's people, in the same way Israel was a metaphor for the "promised land", Jerusalem was a metaphor for the holy city and the Temple was a metaphor for the God's sanctuary/inner sanctum. And two promises God gave the Jews - they would be a blessing to the world (note their contribution in many human endeavors) and they would be cursed and scattered into all the nations when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. In a similar vein, the return of the Jew to Palestine ("all of them" - Ezekiel) would signify the "fulfillment" of the Gentiles. So yes, there is a Jew, and yes, the bible account of them is believable because their history is still being played out before us to this day. According to scripture we are in the time of the gentiles. Luke 21:24 One could debate what that passage means by the "time of the gentiles". But the scriptures are neither history nor science. So as I explained, what religious people can call 70% Jews does not at all represent 70 of world Jewish ancestry. That's why we can't say that there are 900 million Mongolians in the world today.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 6, 2015 1:52:47 GMT -5
First of all, Bert, -you need too go back to the post you made on the Humor Thread.
Seems someone believed it was an Atheist making a post.
So, no answer from me on your present thread until you set straight the post you left on the Humor thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 1:54:12 GMT -5
Another point re Jew. Many Jews today consider themselves descendants of those driven out of Israel during the Roman wars of First and Second Century AD. They can more or less trace their ancestry to those who settled in Germany, or Spain or Russia etc.. Some claim "Jew" because they resided in Iran from the first exile times. These are the people the bible speaks of when it refers to the "Return" of the Jews to their homeland.
Many will argue Israel isn't their homeland, but that's another story.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 6, 2015 2:13:52 GMT -5
Another point re Jew. Many Jews today consider themselves descendants of those driven out of Israel during the Roman wars of First and Second Century AD. Many - if maybe half a million were many. Certainly not most. Paul never lived in Palestine, didn't care for Palestinian Jewry, and met lots of Jews in every major city he went to in the Roman Empire. For economic reasons Jews migrated throughout the Mediterranean region long before the Roman Wars. Most Jews at that time were Hellenistic Jews. They're not necessarily any of the Jews who left after the Roman wars. They were there for generations before that. The Jews were not involved in the first exile. Those were the Israelites, not the Jews. It was the people of the second exile (Jews) who were permitted to return to their homeland. However, some of them remained behind and they are the descendants of the Jews, the second exile. Netanyahu thinks it is.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 6, 2015 2:51:48 GMT -5
Quote - " According to scripture we are in the time of the gentiles. Luke 21:24" "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
This tells me that the "... the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." because Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands again. This means, as I see it, that the Gentiles are now finished and will suffer as the Jews once suffered.Grrrr. Lost a long post
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 2:52:54 GMT -5
Quote - "The Jews were not involved in the first exile. Those were the Israelites, not the Jews."
re "Jews" who were called this name because of Judea, or Judah. This is the generic term used by people to describe ALL those descendant from Judah's father Jacob. It doesn't matter if they were of Ephraim, Mannesah, Benjamin etc. - we call them all "Jews." Once they were known as Hebrews - same thing. Hamas from Gaza call them "Sons of Pigs and Monkeys" - whatever, just so long as we know who we are talking about (!) Yes, lots of "Jews" immigrated early in the history of Israel.
Again - first return is generally known to be from Babylon. Quote from Wikipedia, "The concept of Aliyah (return) to the Holy Land was first developed in Jewish history during the Babylonian exile. During the Jewish diaspora, Aliyah was developed as a national aspiration for the Jewish people, although it was not usually fulfilled until the development of the Zionist movement in the late nineteenth century. Large-scale immigration to Palestine began in 1882"
Never heard anyone speak of Moses/Joshua leading an aliyah as the "promised land" didn't belong to the Hebrews/Jews/Sons of Pigs and Monkeys until Joshua crossed the Jordan.
|
|
|
Post by responding on Apr 6, 2015 3:20:30 GMT -5
Quote - " According to scripture we are in the time of the gentiles. Luke 21:24" "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
This tells me that the "... the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." because Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands again. This means, as I see it, that the Gentiles are now finished and will suffer as the Jews once suffered. Bert, this verse in Luke 21 is in the context of when Jesus returns. Jesus said that his disciples (presently mostly Gentiles) will be taken away from the earth and those Jews who still believe in the O.T. prophecies about the Messiah will recognize and accept Jesus at that time.
Isn't that what Paul meant in Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 3:33:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by responding on Apr 6, 2015 5:06:06 GMT -5
RESPONDING, Not sure what you think this verse is referring to. The return of the Messiah and the restitution of Israel are variously connected. I know that the word "Jew" is derived from "Judah". But taking the whole New Testament as our common authority (I hope), it seems that all descendents of Jacob's 12 sons are referred to as Jews (i.e. wasn't John the Baptist a Jew, although of the tribe of Levi? Wasn't Paul a Jew, although of the tribe of Benjamin?).
Luke 22:30 "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Rev. 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."
Don't you think these verses refer to "Jews" in the common usage of the New Testament?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 5:12:05 GMT -5
Gets complicated... Jew can also have a spiritual meaning on top of a spiritual meaning. Thus the Jews are a symbol of God's people, and God's people can be symbolically Jews!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 6, 2015 5:28:17 GMT -5
Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 6, 2015 6:06:40 GMT -5
Quote - " According to scripture we are in the time of the gentiles. Luke 21:24" "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
This tells me that the "... the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." because Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands again. This means, as I see it, that the Gentiles are now finished and will suffer as the Jews once suffered.Grrrr. Lost a long post Try again. Matt 23:27-29 Jesus weeps over Jerusalem. Matt 24:2 70AD Roman Armies destroyed Jerusalem and burnt the 2nd temple to the ground. 2000yr exile began. Acts 15:14 God turns to the gentiles who were humble enough to recieve salvation they didnt deserve. The time of the gentiles began. Romans 11:25-27 Paul tries to explain Luke 21:24 Jesus places a time on the desolation of Jerusalem. During 1967 war bible students thought the time of the gentiles were over. Israels secular govt returned control of the temple mount to the muslims. Rev 11: 1-2 explains when the time of the gentiles is over.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 6:18:45 GMT -5
Bubbles, it might pay to type a long post in a text editor or Word, or, write a little, post it, then edit it. Or, try using the back arrow if you happen to hit the wrong button!!!
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 6, 2015 6:21:32 GMT -5
Im using ph and havent a clue how to copy and paste. Keep dropping out as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 6:42:52 GMT -5
Copy and paste is Fundamental to using a PC. Just select your text and hit Ctrl C to copy and then in your target spot just hit Ctrl V to paste. Or use the Toolbar menus. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 6, 2015 13:01:09 GMT -5
Yea I know. On pc. Not on ph.keyboard different.
|
|