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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 4:20:54 GMT -5
The only pails I have seen were those near the dining areas, and they were not used for the collection of money, they were used for the collection of left over food for dogs and hogs/pigs. Ps. In my neck of the woods, distribution of funds to workers was a bit more sophisticated, money was placed in small envelopes and handed privately to individual workers.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 6:39:07 GMT -5
Was the pail of money under his chair... was the money for convention grounds to pay bills or it was for his personal use? I thought he used it to wipe his butt.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 6:44:07 GMT -5
The only pails I have seen were those near the dining areas, and they were not used for the collection of money, they were used for the collection of left over food for dogs and hogs/pigs. Ps. In my neck of the woods, distribution of funds to workers was a bit more sophisticated, money was placed in small envelopes and handed privately to individual workers. For the first 40 years of my life that's what I believed too. I thought it was mighty friendly when we started going to a convention where they met us at the gate and handed out speakers lists. It was a few years later that we followed someone else onto the convention grounds and saw them pass the envelope to the worker, who dropped it in his pail. The spirit was very slow at educating me on that matter.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 7:48:22 GMT -5
The only pails I have seen were those near the dining areas, and they were not used for the collection of money, they were used for the collection of left over food for dogs and hogs/pigs. Ps. In my neck of the woods, distribution of funds to workers was a bit more sophisticated, money was placed in small envelopes and handed privately to individual workers. For the first 40 years of my life that's what I believed too. I thought it was mighty friendly when we started going to a convention where they met us at the gate and handed out speakers lists. It was a few years later that we followed someone else onto the convention grounds and saw them pass the envelope to the worker, who dropped it in his pail. The spirit was very slow at educating me on that matter. Well at least it is different, we could do like other churches do and send a few people around with pails collecting from the friends whilse singing hymn 286:An Offering I would Bring, or hymn 299: Approved of God, or maybe hymn 33:Give of your best to the Master. For us it is based on a concept of freely received freely given.Nobody really demands anything, it is freely given by those who feel moved to give.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 11:23:27 GMT -5
Ah yes, freely received freely given. That MUST be referring to money! Or is it?
If that is all someone is taught, that is all they comprehend. In my studies of that teaching, first I had to understand what was received freely. Was it money? No, not so far as I could understand. Food? No. Clothing? No. Then what? Perhaps they had received grace freely? I think so. Then they were taught to give it just as freely. It certainly had nothing to do with offerings, collections, etc. Oh yeah, I remember. I am not a worker and thus no say in the matter. Nonetheless, I know what I believe, and find it stands up as true linguistically from Biblical Greek to language after language.
Yeah, I know too, who cares what I might believe? Still, many have eventually found what I believe with regard to such things as not so outlandish after all.
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 12:07:38 GMT -5
Oh, John will be a free loader. Have you ever been to a convention where a worker meets you at the gate with a little pail under his chair to drop the money into? No Square ® credit card swipe device on his/her phone?
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 12:15:50 GMT -5
It seems to me that taking a collection in church is straight forward and honest. Palming white envelopes only tries to create the 'illusion' that workers don't collect money for their services.
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 12:29:42 GMT -5
It seems to me that taking a collection in church is straight forward and honest. Palming white envelopes only tries to create the 'illusion' that workers don't collect money for their services. When I was in the work in the area with 8 churches in the field, we stay each home mostly twice in a year. They gave us 20$ sometimes a little more before we leave. Many friends wanted to give us more but didn't have the opportunity to do so, therefore they gave us after the gospel in the handshakes style.
Judas carried the group bag of money, so they received money from people, and the disciples. The disciples had money to buy food for themselves, Paul and his co-workers travel on ships to different countries preaching the gospel, so they received money from their own followers donation.
Yes even Jesus collected from people. So why the 'smoke and mirrors' the workers play with. The only people they are fooling in a sense are those newbies who come to gospel meetings and think that they won't ever have to pay anything like in other churches. Then they profess and find out the 'Truth', pardon the pun.
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Post by Mary on Apr 2, 2015 13:16:19 GMT -5
So the workers are doing it the wrong way. Giving money in an envelope to a worker is wrong according to the Bible which says the right hand should not know what the left hand is doing. Giving it to someone says loud and clear exactly what the person is giving. No one knows how much some one is dropping into a bag or box which is more Biblical.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Apr 2, 2015 14:51:53 GMT -5
When I was in the work in the area with 8 churches in the field, we stay each home mostly twice in a year. They gave us 20$ sometimes a little more before we leave. Many friends wanted to give us more but didn't have the opportunity to do so, therefore they gave us after the gospel in the handshakes style.
Judas carried the group bag of money, so they received money from people, and the disciples. The disciples had money to buy food for themselves, Paul and his co-workers travel on ships to different countries preaching the gospel, so they received money from their own followers donation.
Yes even Jesus collected from people. So why the 'smoke and mirrors' the workers play with. The only people they are fooling in a sense are those newbies who come to gospel meetings and think that they won't ever have to pay anything like in other churches. Then they profess and find out the 'Truth', pardon the pun. I find it a relief at my church that they simply pass around a bag and no one says anything about 'please give.' In fact, there is no pressure to give, and it is so low key and upfront that it feels more honest than the way we used to do it in the fellowship. That always felt a little weird to me--but then it would, I'm a CPA. In my church, we know exactly where all the money goes, how much came in, and the pastors don't have access to the money or the records.
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 15:23:07 GMT -5
Yes even Jesus collected from people. So why the 'smoke and mirrors' the workers play with. The only people they are fooling in a sense are those newbies who come to gospel meetings and think that they won't ever have to pay anything like in other churches. Then they profess and find out the 'Truth', pardon the pun. I find it a relief at my church that they simply pass around a bag and no one says anything about 'please give.' In fact, there is no pressure to give, and it is so low key and upfront that it feels more honest than the way we used to do it in the fellowship. That always felt a little weird to me--but then it would, I'm a CPA. In my church, we know exactly where all the money goes, how much came in, and the pastors don't have access to the money or the records. Which makes so much more sense to me. More transparent, more honest, no illusions of a penniless ministry.
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Post by Admin on Apr 2, 2015 15:47:51 GMT -5
Great news for North America. John Watt is travelling this year from NZ to help you at your conventions. This reminds me a bit of an announcement of a visiting rock star!! Do we have a list of venues and times yet? (just nudging us back on topic )
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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2015 16:00:28 GMT -5
Great news for North America. John Watt is travelling this year from NZ to help you at your conventions. This reminds me a bit of an announcement of a visiting rock star!! Do we have a list of venues and times yet? (just nudging us back on topic ) Perhaps he will give his "Profess" speech in the USA and affirm Eldon Tenniswood's position March 10, 1985Special Meeting Los Angeles, CA - “ You can only profess through our ministry. You cannot know our Heavenly Father through the traditional church.” www.votisalive.com/content/john-watt-what-profess-profess-what
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Post by Admin on Apr 2, 2015 16:16:13 GMT -5
Perhaps he will give his "Profess" speech in the USA and affirm Eldon Tenniswood's position March 10, 1985Special Meeting Los Angeles, CA - “ You can only profess through our ministry. You cannot know our Heavenly Father through the traditional church.” www.votisalive.com/content/john-watt-what-profess-profess-whatI don't think so.
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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2015 16:17:16 GMT -5
Perhaps he will give his "Profess" speech in the USA and affirm Eldon Tenniswood's position March 10, 1985Special Meeting Los Angeles, CA - “ You can only profess through our ministry. You cannot know our Heavenly Father through the traditional church.” www.votisalive.com/content/john-watt-what-profess-profess-whatI don't think so. That's progress
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 16:25:35 GMT -5
Great news for North America. John Watt is travelling this year from NZ to help you at your conventions. This reminds me a bit of an announcement of a visiting rock star!! Do we have a list of venues and times yet? (just nudging us back on topic ) Too late my friend, it has been derailed. MONEY TALKS.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 16:46:20 GMT -5
It seems to me that taking a collection in church is straight forward and honest. Palming white envelopes only tries to create the 'illusion' that workers don't collect money for their services. Maybe they collect it to assist with their keeps and some personal needs. They still have to render unto Caesar as well as render unto God.
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Post by Gene on Apr 2, 2015 17:42:29 GMT -5
Great news for North America. John Watt is travelling this year from NZ to help you at your conventions. This reminds me a bit of an announcement of a visiting rock star!! Do we have a list of venues and times yet? (just nudging us back on topic ) Hey John - could you share your itinerary with us? If you're flying through New York City, maybe we could grab a cup of coffee or a beer!
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 17:57:27 GMT -5
It seems to me that taking a collection in church is straight forward and honest. Palming white envelopes only tries to create the 'illusion' that workers don't collect money for their services. One time after a gospel meeting, I dropped some brown, blue, and a couple of purple bills around me on the floor before I handed it all to the worker.
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Post by Gene on Apr 2, 2015 19:10:22 GMT -5
It seems to me that taking a collection in church is straight forward and honest. Palming white envelopes only tries to create the 'illusion' that workers don't collect money for their services. One time after a gospel meeting, I dropped some brown, blue, and a couple of purple bills around me on the floor before I handed it all to the worker. Euros? British pounds? Monopoly money?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 19:33:29 GMT -5
One time after a gospel meeting, I dropped some brown, blue, and a couple of purple bills around me on the floor before I handed it all to the worker. Euros? British pounds? Monopoly money? Oh - Canadian $2 $5 and $10 The green and brown ones are gone now. They've been replaced with loonies and twoonies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 20:36:03 GMT -5
This reminds me a bit of an announcement of a visiting rock star!! Do we have a list of venues and times yet? (just nudging us back on topic ) Perhaps he will give his "Profess" speech in the USA and affirm Eldon Tenniswood's position March 10, 1985Special Meeting Los Angeles, CA - “ You can only profess through our ministry. You cannot know our Heavenly Father through the traditional church.” www.votisalive.com/content/john-watt-what-profess-profess-whatyou're a bit of a misery
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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2015 21:37:07 GMT -5
Perhaps he will give his "Profess" speech in the USA and affirm Eldon Tenniswood's position March 10, 1985Special Meeting Los Angeles, CA - “ You can only profess through our ministry. You cannot know our Heavenly Father through the traditional church.” www.votisalive.com/content/john-watt-what-profess-profess-whatyou're a bit of a misery Virgo - Do you side with the Eldon Tenniswood's on this question?
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 22:24:48 GMT -5
It seems to me that taking a collection in church is straight forward and honest. Palming white envelopes only tries to create the 'illusion' that workers don't collect money for their services. Maybe they collect it to assist with their keeps and some personal needs. They still have to render unto Caesar as well as render unto God. I'm sure they do. Nothing wrong with taking a collection. But I heard from the 'pulpit' many times that only 'false' churches did this. It was frowned on. But it's okay to accept white envelopes, a folded bill in a palm and keep it all quite secret that they are getting money from the friends, possibly more money than any traditional pastor gets from a collection plate too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 0:26:45 GMT -5
Virgo - Do you side with the Eldon Tenniswood's on this question? that you are a bit of a misery
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 4:05:09 GMT -5
Doesn't want to burden his people? That is exactly what the workers are doing. People giving money are not placing the burden on one or two people like the workers do but are sharing the load. The Bible says 10% but people give what they want. You seem out of touch with churches Nathan. I would say the workers car cost the same as what any pastor's car costs but the burden is shared. I'm sure Jesus and the apostles didn't have a car (or should I say donkey) brought just for them. In all good conscience I could not take a car, have someone put petrol in and feed and keep me free.
What did the apostles use the money Judas collected if it was not food for the apostles.
Most pastors work hard for their money, the workers do very little work and see little results.
As someone who was thinking of leaving the work was told. He had it made.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 4:40:22 GMT -5
Maybe they collect it to assist with their keeps and some personal needs. They still have to render unto Caesar as well as render unto God. I'm sure they do. Nothing wrong with taking a collection. But I heard from the 'pulpit' many times that only 'false' churches did this. It was frowned on. But it's okay to accept white envelopes, a folded bill in a palm and keep it all quite secret that they are getting money from the friends, possibly more money than any traditional pastor gets from a collection plate too. Yes I beleive that this disguise can be construed as Hipocracy; frankly speaking I don't see the need for the attempt at such a cover up, nobody is fooled; but I suppose the friends are equally guilty as well in that they/we aid and abet the practice and behaviour. There needs to be transparency and honesty in this business of serving God in all religeous organisations. I Don't begrudge the workers anything, they have made a great sacrifice, yes I do believe that some do better than most traditional pastors because they are provided for financially, in many areas of life - they are fed, housed, clothed, provided with transportation and Medicare, travel to other countries and areas in addition to monetary donations and so on; however it is not a way of life that is appealing to everyone, I believe that it can be very demanding and stressful and challenging as well- no bed of roses for some. Ps. To sum it up, I believe that God's servants are being paid in one way or another here on earth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 5:04:25 GMT -5
Partaker, the term "God's servants" in the venacular of the 2&2 ministry group, simply is not what it means to myself and many many other's who believe in God. Further, to me and the many like me, use of that term as those of that group do, grows increasingly offensive by its restriction to 2&2 workers.
Fact! I am more God's servant now than I ever was as a "worker." So are many others.
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