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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 19:57:22 GMT -5
Quote 'especially the teachings regarding "Hell" and eternal torment. This was another expansion of RCC doctrine to keep the masses under the control of the Church, considered their only source of salvation. Does any of this sound familiar, by the way?' I am not Roman Catholic. I have never read Augustine, and never intend to do so. If I want to understand the Gospel's position on hell I would read the New Testament. I don't have to read any other book, or listen to any other preacher or Worker.
And "hell" BTW, as mentioned in both testaments, seems to point to separation from God and missing out on the promises of God. eh, -don't forgot the "burn in hell" promise, Bert.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 22:00:57 GMT -5
Quote 'especially the teachings regarding "Hell" and eternal torment. This was another expansion of RCC doctrine to keep the masses under the control of the Church, considered their only source of salvation. Does any of this sound familiar, by the way?' I am not Roman Catholic. I have never read Augustine, and never intend to do so. If I want to understand the Gospel's position on hell I would read the New Testament. I don't have to read any other book, or listen to any other preacher or Worker.
And "hell" BTW, as mentioned in both testaments, seems to point to separation from God and missing out on the promises of God. Bert ~ Well, here's a site that might give a good idea of what the Bible actually teaches on the subject of Hell in the both the Old Testament and New Testament? www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 0:37:48 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Just because the Waldensians had this as a part of their statement of faith, doesn't mean they considered themselves to go back to the shores of Galilee or considered their group the only means of salvation, like the 2x2's. Maybe some of their traditions reflected the 2x2's in ways, but they never made the same claims under their founder as William Irvine made involving the Living Witness Doctrine, which the workers continued to promote today after "burying the memory" of their original founder. Jesus also spoke about the members of His Church being one in unity and spirit throughout the world, which was his prayer for all believers. Also, they believed in the Godhead or Trinity, which the 2x2's definitely do NOT and the workers preach against the Trinity to this day. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120) "3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit."
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper. 14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshipping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 0:58:26 GMT -5
Nathan ~ From the Wiki article referenced in my last post, here is what it says about the Waldensians under Teachings.
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Post by Mary on Jan 26, 2015 3:06:53 GMT -5
They very clearly say there is One Church made up of believers not one denomination. Believers are one church, one body regardless of denomination. That is what the statement you wrote says. They are not saying they alone are that one church. You are saying that not them.
They are also not saying their denomination has been there from the beginning but that the church has. Nothing about them all about those who are believers. You are trying to make it sound like they are talking about themselves not all believers everywhere throughout time.
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Post by Greg on Jan 26, 2015 6:33:58 GMT -5
The workers from 1900-1970 believed and taught the Triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), the Deity of Christ, Jesus is God(the son). You do not know that.
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Post by snow on Jan 26, 2015 12:09:14 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Just because the Waldensians had this as a part of their statement of faith, doesn't mean they considered themselves to go back to the shores of Galilee or considered their group the only means of salvation, like the 2x2's. Maybe some of their traditions reflected the 2x2's in ways, but they never made the same claims under their founder as William Irvine made involving the Living Witness Doctrine, which the workers continued to promote today after "burying the memory" of their original founder. Jesus also spoke about the members of His Church being one in unity and spirit throughout the world, which was his prayer for all believers. Also, they believed in the Godhead or Trinity, which the 2x2's definitely do NOT and the workers preach against the Trinity to this day. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120) "3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit."
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper. 14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshipping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
Faune his confession of faith is not the one that I know of so I will post their Confession of Faith that I found. They also believe in the Catholic belief of wine being his blood and bread his flesh. WALDO ("Valdesius") CONFESSION OF FAITH : Catholic to the Core "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....
"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.
"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....
"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.
"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.
"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.
"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]
In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]as you can see they also believed in infant baptism which isn't a 2x2 belief.
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Post by Mary on Jan 26, 2015 13:12:15 GMT -5
The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)
"3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit."
The Waldenses clearly accept all Christians as 'the church'. They are saying we are one church just like many Christians say regardless of denomination. God does not only accept one denomination, he accepts born again Christians. The Waldenses clearly do not believe in a denomination. They believe that 'we' are one church.
They claim they started in 1120 so they are not saying it is just them who are the elect and faithful who existed since the beginning of the world. They are talking about Christians through out the centuries.
The 2x2s are clearly so denomination focused and believe only their church/denomination is true.
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Post by snow on Jan 26, 2015 13:23:14 GMT -5
The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120) "3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit." The Waldenses clearly accept all Christians as 'the church'. They are saying we are one church just like many Christians say regardless of denomination. God does not only accept one denomination, he accepts born again Christians. The Waldenses clearly do not believe in a denomination. They believe that 'we' are one church. They claim they started in 1120 so they are not saying it is just them who are the elect and faithful who existed since the beginning of the world. They are talking about Christians through out the centuries. The 2x2s are clearly so denomination focused and believe only their church/denomination is true. The church today claim Waldo as their founder. It's just evangelicals like Ed Broadbent and a few others that are trying to tie their church back to the beginning like some in the 2x2's do. But they can't all have it their way. Clearly the Waldenses were Catholic in all the ways that counted, they believed in the Trinity, the transubstantiation, infant baptism and praying for the dead. Those are not evangelical beliefs and they are definitely not beliefs I remember when I was part of the 2x2 group. But those who want them to be a link just ignore this part.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 13:38:50 GMT -5
The workers from 1900-1970 believed and taught the Triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), the Deity of Christ, Jesus is God(the son). You do not know that. Nathan ~ I professed back in 1965 and the workers did NOT teach or support the doctrine of the Trinity; in fact, they called it false teaching in the gospel meetings I attended back in time. However, what they did teach was more in line with Arian theology and it's still the same today. I realize a few folks may embrace the Trinity within the 2x2's, but you are definitely among the minority! Also, if the workers taught it in their gospel meetings, my guess is they would be soon removed from the work by the overseer in their area due to not promoting the 2x2 doctrine. So, basically the workers' gospel message is the 2x2 homeless ministry and meeting in the home, plus all the unwritten rules that do follow.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 13:44:35 GMT -5
They very clearly say there is One Church made up of believers not one denomination. Believers are one church, one body regardless of denomination. That is what the statement you wrote says. They are not saying they alone are that one church. You are saying that not them. They are also not saying their denomination has been there from the beginning but that the church has. Nothing about them all about those who are believers. You are trying to make it sound like they are talking about themselves not all believers everywhere throughout time. Mary ~ You expressed my sentiment exactly pertaining to those who are true believers in Jesus and make up the One Church or body of believers in unity and it has nothing to do with any group or denomination. In fact, I found this article this morning that better describes what the early Christians did believe from the writings of ECF's who lived during the same time and described their practices and style of worship within the Church.
I feel this should not be confused with the organized Roman Catholic Church of Rome towards the end of the 4th century who took a big turn in their practices and tried to wipe out all other beliefs who didn't endorse their doctrine and traditions through the early Inquisitions, Crusades, and later Witch Hunts. It's no wonder that by the time of the Reformation period during the 16th century, people had enough of the corrupt Popes within the RCC and it edicts and began to break away from its yoke over their lives.
www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1-300/what-were-early-christians-like-11629560.html
What Were Early Christians Like?
listverse.com/2011/06/08/top-10-shameful-moments-in-catholic-history/
10 Shameful Moments in Catholic History www.toptenz.net/top-10-worst-popes-in-history.php 10 Worst Popes in History
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Post by Mary on Jan 26, 2015 14:23:37 GMT -5
The trinity is only mentioned as being a false doctrine.
Remember a worker in Alaska was put out because he preached the trinity.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 14:26:48 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Just because the Waldensians had this as a part of their statement of faith, doesn't mean they considered themselves to go back to the shores of Galilee or considered their group the only means of salvation, like the 2x2's. Maybe some of their traditions reflected the 2x2's in ways, but they never made the same claims under their founder as William Irvine made involving the Living Witness Doctrine, which the workers continued to promote today after "burying the memory" of their original founder. Jesus also spoke about the members of His Church being one in unity and spirit throughout the world, which was his prayer for all believers. Also, they believed in the Godhead or Trinity, which the 2x2's definitely do NOT and the workers preach against the Trinity to this day. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120) "3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit."
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper. 14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshipping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
Faune his confession of faith is not the one that I know of so I will post their Confession of Faith that I found. They also believe in the Catholic belief of wine being his blood and bread his flesh. WALDO ("Valdesius") CONFESSION OF FAITH : Catholic to the Core "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....
"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.
"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....
"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.
"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.
"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.
"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]
In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]as you can see they also believed in infant baptism which isn't a 2x2 belief. Snow ~ Thanks for sharing that information which does conflict with what I found just recently. Could it be they changed their views by the time of the Reformation in the 16th century from the beginning of their movement during the 12th century? Here's what I discovered around the Reformation period which is very different from the above. www.thereformation.info/waldensians.htm
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 14:35:31 GMT -5
From Kathy Lewis' (Ex-2x2) book: The church without a name 2x2s belief on the Trinity. The workers are usually very quiet about this subject because they know its importance to Christians. They will usually answer that the word “Trinity is not in the scripture”. They say, “We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” They usually end their statement with that, and a questioner usually accepts it without further interest. However, further inquiry is necessary. The workers do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and repudiate it as a Catholic heresy. They call it the “Argument of the Trinity”. One worker said that the “Trinity is the belief that God is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Mary the Mother of God.” The workers are very ignorant of what Christians mean by the term Trinity or at least they act ignorant. They wrongly say that Christians think that Jesus is his own Father. The workers say, “The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate beings, united in spirit (attitude or purpose), not in essence.” And, they say “the Church is One with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” They believe that “there is only One God, the Father.” They state that Jesus is a just a man, the Son of God. 1 Chapter 15 7/16/2004The church without a name not believe that He (Jesus) is the Creator, or equal to God in any way. He isn’t to be worshiped. Some workers refuse to comment on this subject by saying that they don’t really know. They close their minds to the question of whether Jesus is the Creator, claiming it is of no importance. Some workers refer to II Timothy 2: 23 that says to avoid arguing over words. One older brother worker said, “the “Word” referred to in John 1:1 is Christ.” He said that the original Greek states that the “Word is god”, with a little “g”. In other words, Christ is a god. They say “Christ is the Word in the sense that He lived the Word so perfectly that He was the Word made flesh or the Word made clear to the world what God wants every human to be perfectly obedient to the Word.” There is so little teaching regarding the person of God, few people have any idea of who God is. It is not a well defined, verbalized concept. “Who God is” is not important to them. Only “who the ministry is” is important.However, they primarily view Jesus as only a man who was completely filled with the indwelling Spirit. And of course, they don’t believe the Spirit is God either. Sometimes they say they believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine, but if they were asked, they wouldn’t be able to explain what “divine” means. They assume that it means holy or sanctified. They state simply that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Since they don’t view the Holy Spirit as the Creator GOD, but only the power of God, they don’t really view Jesus as being much different than any other human being believer who is filled with the Spirit. They often refer to Jesus as our elder brother, inferring that He is a human child of God just as other humans, and our perfect example of what God wants all His children to be.They view the Holy Spirit as the power of God, not God and not a person. They refer to the Holy Spirit as “it.” Some workers refer to the Holy Spirit as being “the mother spirit” because the Greek word for spirit has a feminine article. They don’t believe the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped or prayed to because the Spirit doesn’t glorify itself, instead, “it” glorifies The Father and Son. They don’t view “it” as equal to God or a person of the Godhead. One of the earliest workers said, “There is One God, and Two Lords, the Lord God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” They quote many verses to prove that Jesus is not God because He could not pray to Himself, nor sit down at His own right hand, nor speak from heaven saying, “This is my well beloved Son..."
They say that Jesus does not know the hour of His return to earth so that proves He isn’t omniscient. Instead of viewing Jesus as God who became man, they view Him as a man who became godlike. Thus giving the impression that other men can do the same. They believe that the workers are like Jesus because they have denied self in obedience to the Spirit. The illogical reasoning in this is that they believe that the Spirit enables believers to be obedient and deny self, yet they believe that self denial is the key to obtaining the Spirit which enables them to deny self. Since they are ignorant of the eternal plurality of God they aren’t able to comprehend the eternally infinite love of God. How could God be able to love in eternity past, if there was no one but the Father in existence prior to creation? Dan Hilton (Washington State)
The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985] Dan HiltonBeware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] Hberry wrote: In CA, they worship Jesus only as 'Lord' and most often referred to Him as our 'elder brother'--never as God. Nathan ~ I believe you just contradicted your earlier statement that the workers taught the Trinity before 1970 by posting what Kathy Lewis and others wrote about the teaching of the Trinity within the 2x2's as being non-existent and considered heresy. I professed in 1965 and I remember distinctly their mocking of the Trinity doctrine in gospel meetings.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 14:48:35 GMT -5
Snow ~ Here's an excerpt from that article I referenced in my previous post about the Waldensians and their teachings that actually showed contempt for the Catholic Church and their teachings. However, this seemed to go back to the 13th century according to the dates given? However, the RCC doctrine of transubstantiation didn't go into effect until 1215 when the Pope at that time instituted it as church dogma. www.thereformation.info/waldensians.htm
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 15:07:48 GMT -5
Getting back to the early beliefs of the Waldensians and RCC opposition against them, this Wiki article seems to cover it pretty thoroughly? The Piedmont Massacre at Easter of the Waldensians is pretty graphic of the reaction of the Catholic Church and their desire to wipe out all memory of this group for all time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 15:56:32 GMT -5
This article is more interesting than Dawkins' "God Delusion" Bert, Thought this might interest you: Vexen Crabtree listed his "heroes" Guess who leads at the top? Heroes
Prof. Richard Dawkins Peter Gilmore Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan Friedrich Nietzsche Prof. Paul Kurtz Stephen Hawking
DMG ~ Is there anybody on this list, other than Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, that you might not be familiar with yourself? Perhaps some are your own heroes, too? However, in spite of his atheistic leanings, this man does give a good overview of the different groups that sprung up over the centuries and their teachings. That was might main point in posting this article. However, I did notice he did not give much attention to the early church fathers of the 1st and 2nd, and 3rd centuries, but concentrated on the Catholic Church developing a Pauline Christianity, which I found misleading myself. Personally, if the Catholic Church really followed Paul's teachings, why all the emphasis on church doctrine plus traditions being of equal importance? Didn't the Pharisees do the same?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2015 16:19:17 GMT -5
Bert, Thought this might interest you: Vexen Crabtree listed his "heroes" Guess who leads at the top? Heroes
Prof. Richard Dawkins Peter Gilmore Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan Friedrich Nietzsche Prof. Paul Kurtz Stephen Hawking
DMG ~ Is there anybody on this list, other than Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, that you might not be familiar with yourself? Faune, I was only answering Bert's post about Dawkins.
Bert said, "This article is more interesting than Dawkins' God Delusion' "T hat was the only reason that I didn't include anything about the other "heroes" of Vexen Crabtree.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 16:21:04 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Just because the Waldensians had this as a part of their statement of faith, doesn't mean they considered themselves to go back to the shores of Galilee or considered their group the only means of salvation, like the 2x2's. Maybe some of their traditions reflected the 2x2's in ways, but they never made the same claims under their founder as William Irvine made involving the Living Witness Doctrine, which the workers continued to promote today after "burying the memory" of their original founder. Jesus also spoke about the members of His Church being one in unity and spirit throughout the world, which was his prayer for all believers. Also, they believed in the Godhead or Trinity, which the 2x2's definitely do NOT and the workers preach against the Trinity to this day. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120) "3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit."
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper. 14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshipping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
Faune his confession of faith is not the one that I know of so I will post their Confession of Faith that I found. They also believe in the Catholic belief of wine being his blood and bread his flesh. WALDO ("Valdesius") CONFESSION OF FAITH : Catholic to the Core "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....
"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.
"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....
"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.
"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.
"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.
"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]
In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]as you can see they also believed in infant baptism which isn't a 2x2 belief. Snow ~ I just discovered the article where you discovered that Confession of Faith earlier, which offers a different view of the Waldensians than the one I presented previously from a Protestant apologist. I guess it all depends on your source for information in this case? It appears your site deals with Catholic apologetics, so may have its own slant compared to the Protestant version? I did notice from the introduction and body of this article that the Catholic apologist hardly mentions the persecution and abusive history of the RCC regarding these folks and how they came close to wiping them off the face of the earth. This was considerably downplayed. www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num3.htm
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Post by snow on Jan 26, 2015 17:23:21 GMT -5
Faune his confession of faith is not the one that I know of so I will post their Confession of Faith that I found. They also believe in the Catholic belief of wine being his blood and bread his flesh. WALDO ("Valdesius") CONFESSION OF FAITH : Catholic to the Core "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....
"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.
"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....
"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.
"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.
"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.
"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]
In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]as you can see they also believed in infant baptism which isn't a 2x2 belief. Snow ~ Thanks for sharing that information which does conflict with what I found just recently. Could it be they changed their views by the time of the Reformation in the 16th century from the beginning of their movement during the 12th century? Here's what I discovered around the Reformation period which is very different from the above. www.thereformation.info/waldensians.htm I believe they changed their beliefs a lot over the following years. Especially after they sought the blessing of the pope for their ministry of poverty and they were turned down and slowly became considered heretics in the RCC's eyes. But they were definitely very Catholic when Waldo founded them. They were not an issue to the RCC like the Cathars were until they wouldn't stop preaching. That was their crime in the eyes of the church. They taught without the blessing of the pope without being priests. It was after that they became more like the protestant beliefs we saw later on. There are some that try to tie them in, but it's just that, trying to tie them in.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 17:32:26 GMT -5
Snow ~ No doubt the Waldensians changed their beliefs later due to the Roman Catholic Church abusive treatment over the years under three different Popes, ending with the Order of Extermination under Pope Innocent VIII? This comes from the Wiki article I cited earlier on the Waldensians. However, they were declared "heretics" by the RCC as early as 1184 by Pope Lucius III.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
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Post by snow on Jan 26, 2015 17:40:26 GMT -5
I'm sure it was a bit of both that finally led to their demise. They got mad about not being accepted and wouldn't quit preaching and slowly turned away from the RCC beliefs that would have labelled them dangerous heretics in the end. Then they would have been 'dealt' with. The Cathars were much more a problem around the time of the Waldenses beginnings, so I think the church thought they were the least of their worries. But after pretty much slaughtering the Cathars out of existence it was time to get rid of those pesky Walenses.
I don't think they ever gave up the belief of the Trinity though. So in that way I don't think it's possible the 2x2's came from them because I never heard the Trinity taught. I never heard of it until I started researching religions.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 18:04:40 GMT -5
I'm sure it was a bit of both that finally led to their demise. They got mad about not being accepted and wouldn't quit preaching and slowly turned away from the RCC beliefs that would have labelled them dangerous heretics in the end. Then they would have been 'dealt' with. The Cathars were much more a problem around the time of the Waldenses beginnings, so I think the church thought they were the least of their worries. But after pretty much slaughtering the Cathars out of existence it was time to get rid of those pesky Walenses. I don't think they ever gave up the belief of the Trinity though. So in that way I don't think it's possible the 2x2's came from them because I never heard the Trinity taught. I never heard of it until I started researching religions. Snow ~ All I remember from my time within the 2x2's was the Trinity being preached against by the workers ~ never advocating its teaching. In fact, they often referred to it as another Catholic teaching in a mocking tone of voice. However, by what the 2x2'x claim to believe relating to Jesus in their Christology, I would guess they are believers in Arianism, much like the Jehovah Witnesses, as their beliefs are similar regarding Jesus? However, there are other sects who also adhere to the Arian theology over the Trinity, as discussed in this Wiki article. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 26, 2015 18:22:49 GMT -5
The workers from 1900-1970 believed and taught the Triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), the Deity of Christ, Jesus is God(the son). You do not know that. Have to agree Greg ! This is another example of Nathan making statements that he cannot back up !
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Post by snow on Jan 26, 2015 18:45:57 GMT -5
I'm sure it was a bit of both that finally led to their demise. They got mad about not being accepted and wouldn't quit preaching and slowly turned away from the RCC beliefs that would have labelled them dangerous heretics in the end. Then they would have been 'dealt' with. The Cathars were much more a problem around the time of the Waldenses beginnings, so I think the church thought they were the least of their worries. But after pretty much slaughtering the Cathars out of existence it was time to get rid of those pesky Walenses. I don't think they ever gave up the belief of the Trinity though. So in that way I don't think it's possible the 2x2's came from them because I never heard the Trinity taught. I never heard of it until I started researching religions. Snow ~ All I remember from my time within the 2x2's was the Trinity being preached against by the workers ~ never advocating its teaching. In fact, they often referred to it as another Catholic teaching in a mocking tone of voice. However, by what the 2x2'x claim to believe relating to Jesus in their Christology, I would guess they are believers in Arianism, much like the Jehovah Witnesses. Which I think was the original belief, not the Trinity. I think the story of the resurrection was added later to somehow do damage control on the fact their Messiah got crucified. It wasn't in the original Mark document and that is the one that got copied by the looks of things. Then to make them all agree, it got added after the fact.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2015 19:02:00 GMT -5
Snow ~ All I remember from my time within the 2x2's was the Trinity being preached against by the workers ~ never advocating its teaching. In fact, they often referred to it as another Catholic teaching in a mocking tone of voice. However, by what the 2x2'x claim to believe relating to Jesus in their Christology, I would guess they are believers in Arianism, much like the Jehovah Witnesses. Which I think was the original belief, not the Trinity. I think the story of the resurrection was added later to somehow do damage control on the fact their Messiah got crucified. It wasn't in the original Mark document and that is the one that got copied by the looks of things. Then to make them all agree, it got added after the fact. Snow ~ This Wiki reference to Mark 16 deals with the two different versions here ~ the short one and the longer one. However, the resurrection of Jesus was still covered in the first 8 verses and with versus 9-20 more details followed. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016&version=AMP;NIV;KJV
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 20:30:08 GMT -5
Have to agree Greg ! This is another example of Nathan making statements that he cannot back up ! While there is much in Nathan's expressions with which I hold no agreement, Greg, others, how can you say none of them believed such teaching?
In visiting with many of them, I learned that they did, just never referring to their beliefs as "trinity." I knew many, and knew of many more who believed exactly as Nathan expresses, on this topic! However, due to the supremacy of the Father, and possibly because so few even believed in "doctrine" it is easy for me to understand where all the denial originated, and indeed we were not taught to think of them as "The Trinity."
Various levels of intellect also became involved, and grin, as we all know "Intellect" did not come from GOD! How do we know this? Quite simple, really... How else could anyone be too intelligent for their own good? And I suggest it is only certain people who have never been told that, AND by certain other ones... Are not all men created equal? (Don't you know that, " so and so doesn't believe all men are created equal?" Tsk, Tsk!)
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Post by Greg on Jan 26, 2015 20:42:52 GMT -5
Have to agree Greg ! This is another example of Nathan making statements that he cannot back up ! While there is much in Nathan's expressions with which I hold no agreement, Greg, others, how can you say none of them believed such teaching?
In visiting with many of them, I learned that they did, just never referring to their beliefs as "trinity." I knew many, and knew of many more who believed exactly as Nathan expresses, on this topic! However, due to the supremacy of the Father, and possibly because so few even believed in "doctrine" it is easy for me to understand where all the denial originated, and indeed we were not taught to think of them as "The Trinity."
Various levels of intellect also became involved, and grin, as we all know "Intellect" did not come from GOD! How do we know this? Quite simple, really... How else could anyone be too intelligent for their own good? And I suggest it is only certain people who have never been told that, AND by certain other ones... Are not all men created equal? (Don't you know that, " so and so doesn't believe all men are created equal?" Tsk, Tsk!)Believing a doctrine and teaching the same doctrine are two different things. Nathan B has made clear his contention that the trinity with God the Son was taught by the workers (in general I presume) until 1970. Hard to know what people might believe and not reveal or teach publicly.
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