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Post by faune on Jan 24, 2015 18:21:00 GMT -5
There seems to be a running debate as to who were the first Christians in the history of Christianity. However, today I found an article that gives a clearer picture of what Christianity looked like in the beginning along with what contributed to present day beliefs dating back to the 4th century. Any comments you might wish to share? www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_historical.html
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Post by Mary on Jan 24, 2015 19:33:00 GMT -5
A well thought out and unbiased description of the history of Christianity.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 24, 2015 21:04:23 GMT -5
There seems to be a running debate as to who were the first Christians in the history of Christianity. However, today I found an article that gives a clearer picture of what Christianity looked like in the beginning along with what contributed to present day beliefs dating back to the 4th century. Any comments you might wish to share? www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_historical.html Did you read any background info on the man that writes it?
He could well know what he is talking about, but he is only listed as having an undergraduate degree in sociology.
Few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself.
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Post by Mary on Jan 24, 2015 21:28:43 GMT -5
Tell me dmmm. He does have a few beliefs that I don't agree with such as he does not advocate self improvement and self acceptance type therapies. Or at least at a quick glance Ii picked that up. Having a degree in sociology does not mean he cannot do some good research and put together a good article. I am sure there are many on this board who did not have a degree of any kind and many who only have a bachelor degree but they can still put up a good debate with us with Master's and other degrees. What are the other things for us who work full time and can only skim over the person's website.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 0:00:33 GMT -5
A well thought out and unbiased description of the history of Christianity. This article is more interesting than Dawkins' "God Delusion" It certainly IS NOT UNBIASED - it adopts all the prejudices of secular interpretation, and then some. Dating the Christian church to the 4th Century is quite strange. It's 300 years too late. The author equates this so-called "Pauline Christianity" to the Roman Catholic Church - in opposition to other strands of "Christian" thought. But there is a vast gulf between the Christianity of Paul and the RCC, in fact this gulf is far wider than between the RCC vs. Ebionites, Gnostics etc.. I have painstakingly gone through the writings of Paul, and the sayings of Jesus - and I cannot see daylight between them. Equating Christianity with other beliefs is a non-starter with me because there are THOUSANDS of religious beliefs out there, not even counting over the course of history. No matter what Jesus brought - it simply couldn't be novel to every religous group. And like most "historians" this author simply ignores Jesus as testified in the Old Testament. Why? Because this article is not about explaining Christianity, but explaining it away.
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Post by Mary on Jan 25, 2015 0:12:40 GMT -5
He starts right back to the beginning, not the 4th century.
Ebionite Christians (1st-4th Century)
The Ebionites were some of the original Christians: Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
The gnostic Mithraists and Jewish Ebionites formed the very first Christians of the first century, with practices and beliefs based respectively on Gnostic and Judaistic rituals, symbols and practices. Pauline Christians dispensed with the difficult Jewish laws and became popular amongst gentiles, soon out-numbering the Jewish Christians, causing them to be secluded and eventually suppressed.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 1:26:27 GMT -5
There seems to be a running debate as to who were the first Christians in the history of Christianity. However, today I found an article that gives a clearer picture of what Christianity looked like in the beginning along with what contributed to present day beliefs dating back to the 4th century. Any comments you might wish to share? www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_historical.html Did you read any background info on the man that writes it?
He could well know what he is talking about, but he is only listed as having an undergraduate degree in sociology.
Few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself. DMG ~ No, I did not check out this man's credentials first, because I could see from his outline and early information shared, he had done his homework on Christianity and its early beginnings. I noticed he also quoted the historian and NT scholar, Bart Ehrman a few times, too, from his book, "Lost Christianities," which deals primarily with this subject. So, basically from my own research along these lines, I felt he covered his topic quite well. I realize he's an atheist and doesn't share the same Christian beliefs as some of us, but he does know a lot about the development of early Christianity. You might also remember that 10 of the most corrupt Catholic Popes during these early centuries contributed a lot to the Reformation Period of the 16th century, too. Pope #6 in the list below was in power at the beginning of the Reformation followed by Leo X who Martin Luther took on with his 95 Theses against the sale of indulgences within the RCC. Perhaps you are aware of the HBO Series entitled "The Bordias" which deals with the reign of Pope #6, Alexander VI.
www.oddee.com/item_96537.aspx 10 Worst Popes of All Time
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borgias_(2011_TV_series) The Borgias (Alexander VI)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI Pope Alexander VI
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 1:59:21 GMT -5
Did you read any background info on the man that writes it?
He could well know what he is talking about, but he is only listed as having an undergraduate degree in sociology.
Few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself. DMG ~ No, I did not check out this man's credentials first, because I could see from his outline and early information shared, he had done his homework on Christianity and its early beginnings. I noticed he also quoted the historian and NT scholar, Bart Ehrman a few times, too, from his book, "Lost Christianities," which deals primarily with this subject. So, basically from my own research along these lines, I felt he covered his topic quite well. I realize he's an atheist and doesn't share the same Christian beliefs as some of us, but he does know a lot about the development of early Christianity. You might also remember that 10 of the most corrupt Catholic Popes during these early centuries contributed a lot to the Reformation Period of the 16th century, too. Pope #6 in the list below was in power at the beginning of the Reformation followed by Leo X who Martin Luther took on with his 95 Thesis against the sale of indulgences within the RCC. Perhaps you are aware of the HBO Series entitled "The Bordias" which deals with the reign of Pope #6, Alexander VI?
Vexen CrabtreeBirth 1975 Sex Male Sexuality Heterosexual Location London, UK, is home although I work in Salisbury Religion Satanist (Church of Satan)Aim in Life To teach the truth Other Year of the Rabbit Aquarius (water) The Hermit (Akron/Giger Tarot) "I am British and I live and work in the UK, although I've spent 4 years working in Germany and 13 months working in Afghanistan. I now live in the South-West of England. I've worked as a web developer and webserver programmer for a few years, but mostly (and still do) work in IT infrastructure. I've been a member of the Church of Satan for 15 years (since 1999), and ran the London Satanists for several years until I moved away.Of course, maybe that also helps him understand Christianity !
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Post by Mary on Jan 25, 2015 15:17:32 GMT -5
I am sure he didn't get all his literature from the Satanist church but from historical literature.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 16:08:20 GMT -5
A well thought out and unbiased description of the history of Christianity. This article is more interesting than Dawkins' "God Delusion" It certainly IS NOT UNBIASED - it adopts all the prejudices of secular interpretation, and then some. Dating the Christian church to the 4th Century is quite strange. It's 300 years too late.
The author equates this so-called "Pauline Christianity" to the Roman Catholic Church - in opposition to other strands of "Christian" thought. But there is a vast gulf between the Christianity of Paul and the RCC, in fact this gulf is far wider than between the RCC vs. Ebionites, Gnostics etc..
I have painstakingly gone through the writings of Paul, and the sayings of Jesus - and I cannot see daylight between them. Equating Christianity with other beliefs is a non-starter with me because there are THOUSANDS of religious beliefs out there, not even counting over the course of history. No matter what Jesus brought - it simply couldn't be novel to every religous group. And like most "historians" this author simply ignores Jesus as testified in the Old Testament. Why? Because this article is not about explaining Christianity, but explaining it away.Bert ~ I was waiting for somebody to bring up an opinion similar to yours about the comparison between the so-called Pauline Christianity, which was continued under the early church fathers and their writings of the 1st and 2nd centuries, even though these other groups were springing up with different types of teachings regarding Jesus ~ such as the Gnostics around the same time. I also noticed there was an absence of mention of these ECF's who shared the earlier orthodox view regarding Jesus and his teachings. However, some of the later ECF's of the 3rd and 4th centuries helped in formulating some of the Church's doctrinal beliefs by refuting this "unorthodox teaching" in circulation at this time. Also, additional church dogma, in the form of traditions, was added by succeeding Popes within the RCC during the centuries that followed. After 12 centuries of rule under these various Popes with 10 Popes who were very corrupt, the Reformation Period of the Church came into focus under Martin Luther and other of the reformers, who were Catholics disenchanted with the teachings and direction of their Church.
So, it's no surprise that Christianity took a big detour around the end of the 4th century, when the Catholic Church became the state religion of Rome under Emperor Constantine. Here's an insightful reference of those very ECF's who carried on the doctrine of the early apostles after their deaths. Even Paul mentioned these groups springing up during his early ministry up until his death around 64 A.D. under Nero in a number of his letters to the Churches as well as the other apostles. For instance, one of the earlier Gnostic writings around the 1st century was the Gospel of Thomas, which records the sayings of Jesus along with a few others.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism Christian Gnosticism arising around the 1st and 2nd Centuries www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html Early Church Fathers of the 1st and 2nd Centuries
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Post by Greg on Jan 25, 2015 16:19:30 GMT -5
Should the 12 apostles be the Early Church Fathers and not some other people?
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 16:39:35 GMT -5
DMG ~ No, I did not check out this man's credentials first, because I could see from his outline and early information shared, he had done his homework on Christianity and its early beginnings. I noticed he also quoted the historian and NT scholar, Bart Ehrman a few times, too, from his book, "Lost Christianities," which deals primarily with this subject. So, basically from my own research along these lines, I felt he covered his topic quite well. I realize he's an atheist and doesn't share the same Christian beliefs as some of us, but he does know a lot about the development of early Christianity. You might also remember that 10 of the most corrupt Catholic Popes during these early centuries contributed a lot to the Reformation Period of the 16th century, too. Pope #6 in the list below was in power at the beginning of the Reformation followed by Leo X who Martin Luther took on with his 95 Thesis against the sale of indulgences within the RCC. Perhaps you are aware of the HBO Series entitled "The Bordias" which deals with the reign of Pope #6, Alexander VI?
Vexen CrabtreeBirth 1975 Sex Male Sexuality Heterosexual Location London, UK, is home although I work in Salisbury Religion Satanist (Church of Satan)Aim in Life To teach the truth Other Year of the Rabbit Aquarius (water) The Hermit (Akron/Giger Tarot) "I am British and I live and work in the UK, although I've spent 4 years working in Germany and 13 months working in Afghanistan. I now live in the South-West of England. I've worked as a web developer and webserver programmer for a few years, but mostly (and still do) work in IT infrastructure. I've been a member of the Church of Satan for 15 years (since 1999), and ran the London Satanists for several years until I moved away.Of course, maybe that also helps him understand Christianity ! DMG ~ I didn't miss that notation about this man being a Satanist or member of the Church of Satan. He also claimed to be an atheist, but I noticed you didn't bring that up in your post here? However, regardless of what his present beliefs may be, this man did do a good job of outlining the Early Church History of the Christianity with one major exception, which Bert pointed out in his post. I was waiting for somebody to comment along those lines and was glad he picked up on this gap of the first four centuries regarding the Early Church. Just like today, you still have plenty of different beliefs calling themselves Christian, but who don't follow the orthodox teachings of Christ's apostles and ECF's, which continued being taught around the first two centuries after Christ's crucifixion. However, during the 3rd and 4th centuries, later ECF's started to formulate other Christian apologetics, while refuting these other teachings. This became what we believe today to be basic beliefs of Christianity. The reason for these ECF's writings was to establish what they believed to be orthodox teaching compared to the Gnostics and other groups springing up claiming to be Christian, too. However, by the end of the 4th century, under the lead of the RCC, church doctrine and practices took a mighty big turn in their teachings and adoption of some pagan customs to win over the masses. In fact, a number of the Church Cathedrals are built over the top of earlier pagan temples connected to Roman Mithras worship. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras_in_comparison_with_other_belief_systems Mithras in Comparison to Other Belief Systems
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 17:03:53 GMT -5
Should the 12 apostles be the Early Church Fathers and not some other people? Greg ~ That's a good point! Actually, the 12 apostles were the first evangelists and what we consider ECF's today fall under disciples of these men and Paul. For instance, Polycarp was associated with John the Apostle and was taught by him. When you check out the writings of these very ECF's you will also discover who influenced them as their own teachers or mentors. For instance, Timothy was influenced by Paul who was his mentor.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 17:11:03 GMT -5
He starts right back to the beginning, not the 4th century. Ebionite Christians (1st-4th Century) The Ebionites were some of the original Christians: Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. The gnostic Mithraists and Jewish Ebionites formed the very first Christians of the first century, with practices and beliefs based respectively on Gnostic and Judaistic rituals, symbols and practices. Pauline Christians dispensed with the difficult Jewish laws and became popular amongst gentiles, soon out-numbering the Jewish Christians, causing them to be secluded and eventually suppressed. Mary ~ Thanks for bringing this to light! I was going to post this Wiki article regarding the same, so as readers can see how these Gnostic teachings arose and how they affected Christian beliefs around the 1st and 2nd centuries. No doubt this had a lot to do with the early writings I cited early of these ECF's around the same time who wanted to keep the Church on the "same page" with the first Apostles? However, the interference caused by these early Gnostic groups can also be seen within Paul's epistles as well as the writings of Peter, John, and Jude. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism Christian Gnosticism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism Gnosticism (progression down through the centuries)
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 17:26:02 GMT -5
Don't forget the Vaudois....~~ 2) The ALPS -The Story of the Waldenses: God has always had a remnant left on the planet throughout the ages of time. This is the story of one such group, who escaped to the Alps, when Rome was about to conquer Jerusalem. They were, part of this woman in the wilderness, spoken of, in Scripture (Revelation 12: 9-17). Paul was in Rome during Reign of Nero 68 A.D. he had many converts. They fled to the Alps Valley of Piedmont (Northern Italy, Southern part of France) in the 4th century. Emperor Constantine. Paganism combine with Christianity in Rome. Sun Worship. At (21:00)Their Missionaries went forth 2 and 2 as Jesus send forth His apostles. The older ones to train his younger companions. They suffered/tortured greatly by the Roman Church.www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2lPB5xxuA&NR=1&feature=fvwp3) Someone wrote: After watching the video (Tares among Wheat) about one-half of this video today, I found that around 40 minutes into it, you start to discover the attempts by the RCC hierarchy to discredit the reformers/Waldensians and sola scriptura. Then, around 1:01 minutes, you start seeing how Pope Gregory XVI and his predecessor, Pope Leo XII, were involved even more in forgeries that transpired regarding Papal powers. Also, you will learn about the underground Papal dungeons with torture chambers and ovens, connected to the RCC during the different Inquisitions, being still in use up into the middle of the 1800's next to the Vatican during Pope Gregory XVI's reign. As you continue, you learn more about these forgeries created by the Jesuits, around 1:18 minutes, regarding Papal power and the clever way in which they were presented to the people. The people involved in this effort were very skillful in the art of deception, which becomes apparent in their forgeries believed to be factual for a number of years. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wep1KFb3wns Nathan ~ I agree that these folks who surfaced around the 12th century endured some terrible persecution by the RCC, which continued well into the Reformation Period where leaders within the RCC started to break away from the Roman Church due to the corruption and persecution they witnessed along with the detour in Christian teachings. Some of the most corrupt Popes existed during the centuries that followed into the Reformation Period of the 16th century from the time in which RCC becoming the Church of Rome in the later part of the 4th century (381 A.D.). In fact, they were severely persecuted after the reign of Alexander VI who was the Borgias Pope, which they made a HBO TV Series about in 2011. The list of succeeding Popes who ruled them heretics of the Church and contributed to their demise were the following:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians Waldensians
www.oddee.com/item_96537.aspx 10 Worst Popes of All Time
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borgias_(2011_TV_series) The Borgias
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI Pope Alexander VI
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Post by Greg on Jan 25, 2015 17:33:21 GMT -5
Should the 12 apostles be the Early Church Fathers and not some other people? Greg ~ That's a good point! Actually, the 12 apostles were the first evangelists and what we consider ECF's today fall under disciples of these men and Paul. For instance, Polycarp was associated with John the Apostle and was taught by him. When you check out the writings of these very ECF's you will also discover who influenced them as their own teachers or mentors. For instance, Timothy was influenced by Paul who was his mentor. I think he twelve (perhaps eleven at the time) were charged by Jesus to "make disciples of me". Really, nobody following the teachings of Jesus should have disciples. Paul called Timothy his son in the gospel or referred to himself as Timothy's father in the gospel. This could be a support for the first apostles, which then could include Paul, as being the Early Church Fathers. Of course, the Early Church Fathers as indicated elsewhere could be the ECF of another church or churches.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 17:33:26 GMT -5
DMG ~ I didn't miss that notation about this man being a Satanist or member of the Church of Satan. He also claimed to be an atheist, but I noticed you didn't bring that up in your post here? No, I didn't bring that up because if you remember, I said that there were a "few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 17:44:48 GMT -5
This article is more interesting than Dawkins' "God Delusion" Bert, Thought this might interest you: Vexen Crabtree listed his "heroes" Guess who leads at the top? Heroes
Prof. Richard Dawkins Peter Gilmore Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan Friedrich Nietzsche Prof. Paul Kurtz Stephen Hawking
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 18:04:50 GMT -5
DMG ~ I didn't miss that notation about this man being a Satanist or member of the Church of Satan. He also claimed to be an atheist, but I noticed you didn't bring that up in your post here? No, I didn't bring that up because if you remember, I said that there were a "few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself.
DMG ~ And so I did find out for myself. By the way, did you know Satanists have their own Bible and consider themselves to be "atheistic Satanists?" Honestly, you learn something new every day, huh?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 18:36:54 GMT -5
No, I didn't bring that up because if you remember, I said that there were a "few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself.
DMG ~ And so I did. Good for you!
I never to just accept every article as worth while until I know something about who it is writing.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 18:41:17 GMT -5
No, I didn't bring that up because if you remember, I said that there were a "few other things I found out about him, but I will let you find them for yourself.
DMG ~ And so I did find out for myself. By the way, did you know Satanists have their own Bible and consider themselves to be "atheistic Satanists?" Honestly, you learn something new every day, huh? WOW!
What is new under the sun!
Think I'll pass on reading it- not able to waste my time now that I'm older.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 19:07:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 19:23:43 GMT -5
Should the 12 apostles be the Early Church Fathers and not some other people? I would assume these writers were people who were acceptable to the early Catholic Church. No?Quote - "All of the above documents and more are presented on the Early Christian Writings web site." I know this is not your list, but there's an important point: These writers, these "prophets", are extraneous to the New Testament and yet treated as "saints" with equal billings to the figures and authors of the New Testament. The bible was "sealed" after Revelations, yet these new authors, though not strictly "adding books" or amending the Gospels, have created NEW books to "complement", "explain", "update" "modernize" etc the bible to the point that the Gospel has become largely unrecognizable. These very people helped to make the simplicity of the Gospel "of no effect through their traditions" and helped to shed the blood of those who did obey the Gospel.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 19:24:41 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I agree that these folks who surfaced around the 12th century endured some terrible persecution by the RCC, which continued well into the Reformation Period where leaders within the RCC started to break away from the Roman Church due to the corruption and persecution they witnessed along with the detour in Christian teachings. Some of the most corrupt Popes existed during the centuries that followed into the Reformation Period of the 16th century from the time in which RCC becoming the Church of Rome in the later part of the 4th century (381 A.D.). In fact, they were severely persecuted after the reign of Alexander VI who was the Borgias Pope, which they made a HBO TV Series about in 2011. The list of succeeding Popes who ruled them heretics of the Church and contributed to their demise were the following:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians Waldensians
www.oddee.com/item_96537.aspx 10 Worst Popes of All Time
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borgias_(2011_TV_series) The Borgias
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI Pope Alexander VI
The Waldensians didn't start in the 11th century. The RCC wants people to believe Peter Waldo started the Waldenses in 1170 A.D. which is further from the truth. The RCC wants others to believe their church exists 1000 yrs longer than Peter Waldo church Waldenses in 1170 A.D.The Friends of God in the 12th Century:www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friend.htm The "Friends of God," who stood in immediate connection with the Waldensian "Brethren" say that about the year 320 A.D. after Christ, the Church in Rome had fallen into worldliness and was "corrupted" through EVIL teaching. For the Roman Emperor Constantine, instead persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them worldly "power" and "riches", and not by the Word of the Lord. And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been Persecuted and Killed by the Roman Church. And, many of them had fled to the mountain of "Italy" and "Switzerland" and "France" and some other countries, and God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed, though they had suffered hardship, and persecution, and death, from generation to generation. And, so as time went on, they were to be found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they believe the apostles "Taught it." Was Peter Waldo in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors. These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century. I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterward changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder. It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back and in the 3th century, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe. For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them. They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England. Nathan ~ Due to this Wiki reference to the date of birth of the Waldensians' founder, Peter Waldo, I find it hard to believe they came into existence any sooner than the 12th century?
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Post by Greg on Jan 25, 2015 19:30:19 GMT -5
Should the 12 apostles be the Early Church Fathers and not some other people? I would assume these writers were people who were acceptable to the early Catholic Church. No?Perhaps. Not necessarily with them or among them, but acceptable to them.
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Post by faune on Jan 25, 2015 19:31:08 GMT -5
Should the 12 apostles be the Early Church Fathers and not some other people? I would assume these writers were people who were acceptable to the early Catholic Church. No?Bert ~ Yes, these ECF's are included in the history of the RCC, but the Catholic Church was not recognized until around 381 A.D., when it became the state Church of Rome. Also, if you compare the teachings of these ECF's of the 1st and 2nd centuries with later teachings those who existed during and after the 4th century, formulated under Augustine, you will see a difference in Christian beliefs regarding a few things, especially the teachings regarding "Hell" and eternal torment. This was another expansion of RCC doctrine to keep the masses under the control of the Church, considered their only source of salvation.
Does any of this sound familiar, by the way?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2015 19:32:15 GMT -5
Don't forget the Vaudois.... H ow could we forget them with you always there to tell us!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 19:51:44 GMT -5
Quote 'especially the teachings regarding "Hell" and eternal torment. This was another expansion of RCC doctrine to keep the masses under the control of the Church, considered their only source of salvation. Does any of this sound familiar, by the way?'
I am not Roman Catholic. I have never read Augustine, and never intend to do so. If I want to understand the Gospel's position on hell I would read the New Testament. I don't have to read any other book, or listen to any other preacher or Worker.
And "hell" BTW, as mentioned in both testaments, seems to point to separation from God and missing out on the promises of God.
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