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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2015 13:17:50 GMT -5
The psychology behind good people doing horrific things is to get people to do small things first and gradually take them further and further down the road to truly horrific. The tests that were done by psychologist Stanley Milgram showed this quite well. It is actually the same mindset that Hitler used to get good intelligent Germans to do horrific things. He didn't just one day say 'go and exterminate all the Jews in Europe'. Not many would have gone along with that. But he started small. He started a sterilization program that targeted German citizens in about 1933 and then by the end of the decade was euthanizing the handicapped (physical and mental) children and from there went on to adults. Once they got the system down and people were used to doing these things in stages, it wasn't a huge step to start their extermination program of the Jews. And that's how things progress. That's why we need to be very careful when we start talking about certain groups should be restricted in areas that other people have rights. Hitler's justification for all those programs was the belief that these people were harming the German people and in order to protect the German people these other groups needed to be exterminated. We need to be careful that we don't start allowing the slow incremental stages of first taking away rights of the people we think are harmful because we can end up taking it much further than we might want to. We don't want to have to look back at how we handled this situation with horror of what 'we' were capable of. Let's not forget that prior to 1934 the US led the world in sterilizations. As many as 30,000 in the beginning of the 1900s, many of them incarcerated in prisons or psychological hospitals, many unknowingly or against their will. The Germans were not the only ones who believed that controlled breeding would improve the human race. You know the old story: (one poetic version) First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Probably a more accurate version of the speech: When Pastor Niemöller was put in a concentration camp we wrote the year 1937; when the concentration camp was opened we wrote the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers. Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians - "should I be my brother's keeper?" Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. - I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle of society? -- Only then did the church as such take note. Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public. Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible? The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written in the newspapers I believe, we Confessing-Church-Christians have every reason to say: mea culpa, mea culpa! We can talk ourselves out of it with the excuse that it would have cost me my head if I had spoken out. that's true, the German's were not the only ones. Canada did it too.
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2015 13:47:18 GMT -5
I do hear what Snow is saying but I'm sure the Jews in the 1930s were not fighting all around the world like Jihadis are today. Actually I think its an insult to the Jews of the 1930s and 1940s to compare them with the Muslims of today. If you rein in the Jihadis and their Imams and get the Islamic world to respect the Universal Declaration of Human Rights I'm pretty sure the backlash against Muslims would quickly melt away. I'm not comparing the Jews to the Muslims. I'm comparing prejudice against the Jews to prejudice against the Muslims. That is very much the same. My reference point is only tangentially the links in your posts. I'm seeing much stronger anti-Muslim prejudice elsewhere, right here in Canada. Anti-Muslim prejudice is roughly proportional to the attitude of Muslims towards non-Muslims I think. Tareq Yousef Al-Masri says the source of Islamic terrorism is the ideology of hate of non-Muslims by Muslims, as preached by Salafist 'thugs.' Is this Imam wrong?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 14:13:43 GMT -5
If It has nothing to do with intelligence, then quit making statements that sound as if it does!
I never intended to come across as patronizing. I was simply stating that we have a lot of choices to make every day about how we live, while Islamic cultures have far fewer options.
People from Islamic cultures have difficulty coping with the diversity and the available options around how we live our lives. People who are patronizing don't usually realize that they are doing so."treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority."
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2015 14:17:34 GMT -5
Does this concern you?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 14:53:50 GMT -5
Fixit, when you make statements like:
"Congressional testimony suggests that 80% of the Mosques in the United States are controlled by radical imams" why don't you give the source for your statement?Here is the item I presume you were talking about.
It denies the statement you stated! ' 80 Percent Of Mosques In This Country Are Controlled By Radical Imams' (VIDEO) The Huffington Post | By Nick Wing Posted: 01/25/2011 The reasons for New York Republican Rep. Peter King's insistence on holding a series of controversial hearings about the alleged growth of radical Islam in America may have grown clearer this week, when King expressed his belief that "over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams."
During an interview with the "Laura Ingraham Show," caught here by ThinkProgress, King described his belief about the extreme extent of radical leadership in the nation's Islamic places of worship. HOST: "Congressman, how widespread do you think this radical jihad sentiment is in US mosques? How many mosques do you think are infected?"
King: "The only real testimony we have on it is from Sheikh Kabbani who was a Muslim leader during the Clinton Administration, he testified back in 1999 and 2000 before the State Department that he thought over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams. Certainly from what I've seen and dealings I've had, that number seems accurate." Referring to a decade-old testimony seems a strange launching pad for such an outrageous claim, especially considering the presence of more recent, better-sourced, research concerning the matter. ThinkProgress points to a 2004 Detroit mosque study, conducted by the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, which finds -- among other debunkings of highly inflated statistics about rampant Islamic extremism in the nation -- "that the vast majority of American-Muslims eschew extremist views" of Salafist or Wahabbi Islam.
A more recent study, underscored in a New York Times article on the growth of anti-mosque movements during the height of the controversy over the so-called "Ground Zero mosque" this summer, "concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism."
"Our research suggests that initiatives that treat Muslim-Americans as part of the solution to this problem are far more likely to be successful," coauthor David H. Schanzer said at the time. "Muslim-Americans organizations and the vast majority of individuals that we interviewed firmly reject the radical extremist ideology that justifies the use of violence to achieve political ends."
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2015 15:52:24 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2015 16:58:10 GMT -5
It's interesting that Saudi Arabia is freaking out about their security right now, yet their efforts to promote their Salafist ideology around the world is a root cause of the problem.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 18:30:58 GMT -5
I agree dmmichgood, there are different opinions on this statement. Whether they are "different opinions" or not, isn't the point.
The point is if you were going to post it in a statement as if it were true, -shouldn't you have posted it differently than this:
"Congressional testimony suggests that 80% of the Mosques in the United States are controlled by radical imams. "
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2015 18:57:00 GMT -5
I agree dmmichgood, there are different opinions on this statement. Whether they are "different opinions" or not, isn't the point.
The point is if you were going to post it in a statement as if it were true, -shouldn't you have posted it differently than this:
"Congressional testimony suggests that 80% of the Mosques in the United States are controlled by radical imams. "
I apologise - I should have given the reference: www.independentsentinel.com/u-s-imams-who-urge-jihad-against-infidels/
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Post by What Hat on Mar 4, 2015 19:55:18 GMT -5
It concerns me that Republican Congressmen are exaggerating risk for political gain.
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2015 20:30:39 GMT -5
Also what concerns me is we have really no way to know how much of the media is slanting things to incite us against them. Germany did it to the Jews, is it now happening to ALL Muslims instead of just the jihadists? You really do have to wonder.
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2015 20:33:38 GMT -5
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 4, 2015 20:45:09 GMT -5
I imagine moderate Muslims are not pleased that a Canadian man charged with terrorism, pleads to the jury today, that he should be tried by the Quran and not by "human" law, which he considers to be flawed. Alvin TORONTO – One of two men facing terrorism charges in an alleged plot to derail a passenger train offered his “sincere advice” to jurors hearing his case on Wednesday. The Criminal Code is a “book written by humans” and “humans are not perfect,” Chiheb Esseghaier said in a unusual written closing address. “That’s why I required the Holy Qur’an as unique reference of my trial and the judgement of all matter of people’s life,” he wrote to the jury. globalnews.ca/news/1863645/crown-argues-the-evidence-is-overwhelming-in-via-rail-terror-plot/
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Post by fixit on Mar 4, 2015 21:32:39 GMT -5
I imagine moderate Muslims are not pleased that a Canadian man charged with terrorism, pleads to the jury today, that he should be tried by the Quran and not by "human" law, which he considers to be flawed. Alvin TORONTO – One of two men facing terrorism charges in an alleged plot to derail a passenger train offered his “sincere advice” to jurors hearing his case on Wednesday. The Criminal Code is a “book written by humans” and “humans are not perfect,” Chiheb Esseghaier said in a unusual written closing address. “That’s why I required the Holy Qur’an as unique reference of my trial and the judgement of all matter of people’s life,” he wrote to the jury. globalnews.ca/news/1863645/crown-argues-the-evidence-is-overwhelming-in-via-rail-terror-plot/The moderate Muslims should take back control of the Mosques and Islamic institutions. Fire the Medieval Imams from basket-case countries and tell the Saudis they will manage without their petro-dollars. I paid a visit just now to our local store owner who is from an Islamic background. I like her.
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:09:31 GMT -5
The fundamental problem with Islam, 2x2ism and other false religions is this idea that we can appease God with our works. Its interesting to watch this assumption play out in the world.
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:12:43 GMT -5
In a perverse sense, I sort of like radical Islam because it puts a bee in the bonnet of the secular/humanist/atheist colonials. How are they gonna reconcile their great society of man to a man who wont reconcile.
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Post by rational on Mar 4, 2015 22:21:38 GMT -5
The fundamental problem with Islam, 2x2ism and other false religions is this idea that we can appease God with our works. Its interesting to watch this assumption play out in the world. In what religion do the believers not try to appease/worship/influence their god by doing something?
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:23:06 GMT -5
The fundamental problem with Islam, 2x2ism and other false religions is this idea that we can appease God with our works. Its interesting to watch this assumption play out in the world. In what religion do the believers not try to appease/worship/influence their god by doing something? Glad you asked. Christianity! (properly presented/represented)
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Post by rational on Mar 4, 2015 22:26:18 GMT -5
In a perverse sense, I sort of like radical Islam because it puts a bee in the bonnet of the secular/humanist/atheist colonials. How are they gonna reconcile their great society of man to a man who wont reconcile. Reconciling is not a requirement. There is the dream that the gods of today will one day join Zeus et al and provide interesting stories instead of strife.
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:28:18 GMT -5
Some of us believe in God.
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Post by rational on Mar 4, 2015 22:33:05 GMT -5
In what religion do the believers not try to appease/worship/influence their god by doing something? Glad you asked. Christianity! (properly presented/represented) You don't pray to your god? Seek forgiveness for your sins? Ask for help for those who need it? Isn't that 'works'? Isn't that all part of what god requires of Christians - sanctification and holiness?
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Post by rational on Mar 4, 2015 22:36:40 GMT -5
Some of us believe in God. More do than don't! But remember that a lot of people have believed in a lot of gods that are no longer around. There were gods worshiped before your god and there will no doubt be gods worshiped after. Perhaps you can present some insight why you believe your god is different from the many other gods that have come and gone.
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:49:11 GMT -5
You
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 23:00:10 GMT -5
Glad you asked. Christianity! (properly presented/represented) You don't pray to your god? Seek forgiveness for your sins? Ask for help for those who need it? Isn't that 'works'? Isn't that all part of what god requires of Christians - sanctification and holiness? Me and Jesus run deeper than that. Its about identity.....
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 23:11:28 GMT -5
I imagine moderate Muslims are not pleased that a Canadian man charged with terrorism, pleads to the jury today, that he should be tried by the Quran and not by "human" law, which he considers to be flawed. Alvin TORONTO – One of two men facing terrorism charges in an alleged plot to derail a passenger train offered his “sincere advice” to jurors hearing his case on Wednesday. The Criminal Code is a “book written by humans” and “humans are not perfect,” Chiheb Esseghaier said in a unusual written closing address. “That’s why I required the Holy Qur’an as unique reference of my trial and the judgement of all matter of people’s life,” he wrote to the jury. globalnews.ca/news/1863645/crown-argues-the-evidence-is-overwhelming-in-via-rail-terror-plot/The moderate Muslims should take back control of the Mosques and Islamic institutions. Fire the Medieval Imams from basket-case countries and tell the Saudis they will manage without their petro-dollars. I paid a visit just now to our local store owner who is from an Islamic background. I like her. Again:
"Fire the Medieval Imams from basket-case countries"
How would you feel if a Muslim told you to "Fire some of the "workers?"
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 23:23:04 GMT -5
You don't pray to your god? Seek forgiveness for your sins? Ask for help for those who need it? Isn't that 'works'? Isn't that all part of what god requires of Christians - sanctification and holiness? Me and Jesus run deeper than that. Its about identity..... Lee, Are you saying you and Jesus are so close that you never have to pray or seek forgiveness for your "sins?"
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 23:26:41 GMT -5
Me and Jesus run deeper than that. Its about identity..... Lee, Are you saying you and Jesus are so close that you never have to pray or seek forgiveness for your "sins?"
Yup. When I pray I thank my Lord and Creator for everything. Even the shame of sin.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 23:42:05 GMT -5
Lee, Are you saying you and Jesus are so close that you never have to pray or seek forgiveness for your "sins?"
Yup. When I pray I thank my Lord and Creator for everything. Even the shame of sin. WOW! HOW HAPPY YOU MUST BE! Pentecostal?
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