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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Oct 30, 2014 16:01:01 GMT -5
"Problems start with complaining.
Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone.] This seems reasonable - but I do like to complain!"
It is true that problems become known when someone brings it to light. But, if the problem is something that should be brought out into the open - like CSA (the Darren Briggs case), this mentality of suppressing complaints is ludicrous. How many times would someone's wheels be saved because someone else noticed their tire was low? If you're jumping off a cliff and someone says you're not going to survive if you do, do you do it just to prove them wrong? If this is workers' take on how they want to run their religion, by all means, let them finish it off. Until workers get formal education and figure out how to turn their religion around, this ship is going down.
It's much like a pilot - in fair weather he flies visually. If he gets caught in poor weather, and doesn't know how to fly by instruments, he and his passengers may not survive, much like workers want to keep flying in the fog and hope they survive.
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Post by snow on Oct 30, 2014 17:10:50 GMT -5
Is this really comforting to people? How can one take comfort, for example, when children are being abused and the entity who sees all and is in control takes no action? Folks seem to think that its God's prerogative to deal with the issues when he's ready. To hasten the process is considered "getting ahead of the Almighty" or "being very much out of our place". Do you think there's a better alternative? Yes, the alternative is to change that kind of thinking. There is another saying 'God helps those who help themselves'. Not doing anything based on those beliefs you posted seem like a cop out to me. People need to take responsibility and help where they see the need. That includes reporting things to the authorities instead of waiting for God to do it.
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tom
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by tom on Oct 30, 2014 19:55:11 GMT -5
For anyone who wonders if certain things are still preached, the following are direct quotes or paraphrases from this convention season. There were plenty of things that sounded right and good. Below is a list of ideas which made me cringe inside. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. Problems start with complaining. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] Keep your children separate from Strange Children. Seriously? You take a few quotes completely out of context, say 'tut tut they shouldnt be preaching such things' and everyone jumps on the band bagon and happily agrees without any idea of what was being spoken about. Sadly quite typical of TMB. All those quotes could represent good wise godly council and unless you heard yhe entire messsge you cant judge that.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 30, 2014 20:44:09 GMT -5
For anyone who wonders if certain things are still preached, the following are direct quotes or paraphrases from this convention season. There were plenty of things that sounded right and good. Below is a list of ideas which made me cringe inside. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. Problems start with complaining. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] Keep your children separate from Strange Children. Seriously? You take a few quotes completely out of context, say 'tut tut they shouldnt be preaching such things' and everyone jumps on the band bagon and happily agrees without any idea of what was being spoken about. Sadly quite typical of TMB. All those quotes could represent good wise godly council and unless you heard yhe entire messsge you cant judge that. Tom, lets take the last one for example "Keep your children separate from Strange Children" now to me no matter how you want to twist that around or add to it how is it wise council? All this does is teach children we are better than them (then & us mentality) Also any of us that have sat in Missions/Conventions for enough years know exactly what is said & the subtle meaning the workers want to get across. Have a look at some "Gems" on the facebook group 323 !
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Post by withlove on Oct 30, 2014 22:39:04 GMT -5
For anyone who wonders if certain things are still preached, the following are direct quotes or paraphrases from this convention season. There were plenty of things that sounded right and good. Below is a list of ideas which made me cringe inside. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. Problems start with complaining. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] Keep your children separate from Strange Children. Seriously? You take a few quotes completely out of context, say 'tut tut they shouldnt be preaching such things' and everyone jumps on the band bagon and happily agrees without any idea of what was being spoken about. Sadly quite typical of TMB. All those quotes could represent good wise godly council and unless you heard yhe entire messsge you cant judge that. Tom, in a reply further up I tried to explain that I left off anything that could have sounded bad but was followed by an explanation or something that put the statement into what I would consider a context that made it okay. I wasn't trying to be tricky. Although I do feel like they all are stand-alone statements and can be judged as such, since the speakers did not bother to give better (or any) context themselves. But of course, you don't have to trust me. Disregard the post if you want. If I can get full copies of notes I will post them for you...however I don't think it will change anything. So, in other words, the listed statements were not sufficiently explained to my mind. Certainly, they stood out more to me because of the issues that we read about on this board. As I said, plenty of listeners might have heard everything on the list undisturbed. You might have found them acceptable in any context...like maja said she once would have, and I know I would have too. I think we're dealing with the context within the sermon, the context of issues in the location of the convention and the location the speaker is from, and the context of what's in the listener's head. If the whole sermons were posted no doubt we would still all disagree on whether they were appropriate or not.
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Post by mdm on Oct 31, 2014 15:37:02 GMT -5
For anyone who wonders if certain things are still preached, the following are direct quotes or paraphrases from this convention season. There were plenty of things that sounded right and good. Below is a list of ideas which made me cringe inside. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. Problems start with complaining. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] Keep your children separate from Strange Children. Seriously? You take a few quotes completely out of context, say 'tut tut they shouldnt be preaching such things' and everyone jumps on the band bagon and happily agrees without any idea of what was being spoken about. Sadly quite typical of TMB. All those quotes could represent good wise godly council and unless you heard yhe entire messsge you cant judge that. Actually, we know very well what those quotes mean. I may have not known 2 years ago, but after a year of discoveries not just through TMB, but mainly through conversations with workers and friends and through subsequent "subtle" messages in GM's, conventions, SM's, it is very clear what these quotes mean.
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Post by snow on Oct 31, 2014 16:04:51 GMT -5
Seriously? You take a few quotes completely out of context, say 'tut tut they shouldnt be preaching such things' and everyone jumps on the band bagon and happily agrees without any idea of what was being spoken about. Sadly quite typical of TMB. All those quotes could represent good wise godly council and unless you heard yhe entire messsge you cant judge that. Actually, we know very well what those quotes mean. I may have not known 2 years ago, but after a year of discoveries not just through TMB, but mainly through conversations with workers and friends and through subsequent "subtle" messages in GM's, conventions, SM's, it is very clear what these quotes mean. Hmm I guess I would be what they term 'Strange children'. After I quit professing I could be a bad influence you know. Ah well, they were probably right. At that point I believed it wasn't just our group that went to heaven and although I didn't understand at the time the implications of that belief, since I've been on here I realize it was a big mistake to believe that.
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Post by raisininthehotdogend on Nov 1, 2014 18:54:48 GMT -5
Jesus didn't send his disciples to the university of Jerusalem to study theology as God would teach them with his holy spirit. Theology is a man-made-word,which in reality doesn't exist, so the workers never ever need to study theology for their religion. And it is not about religion. Jesus didn't come to earth to start a religion, but he came with truth and grace. He came to carve the path, which was interrupted due to the fall in the Garen of Eden. Some "rotten potatoe workers" in the bucket doesn't mean to cut all with the same brush. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. A part of Kingdom of Heaven is on earth today, and Jesus reigns over the kings of this earth. Therefore the laws in the Kingdom of Heaven is more important than the laws belonging to this earth, which also has to be obeyed according to what Paul mentioned to the Romans chapter 13 vers 1 to 7. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. Pray about it, but one day the light will judge. God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. God knows the hearth and its motives. Problems start with complaining. Think of this: faith has no questions, and doubt has no answers. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. It is in vain to complain about what God has planned. Either we are a part of his plan or not. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] This is the good salvation news. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. Life is serious and short. Dead is certain. Eternity lenght noone knows. It is either a good or bad condition. Be a part of the true wine. It also indicates there are wine which are NOT true and they are all round the earth today. Keep your children separate from Strange Children. The children of God are foreigners and strangers on this earth, but not in Kingdom of Heaven on earth today.
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Post by raisininthehotdogend on Nov 1, 2014 19:01:25 GMT -5
After I quit professing I could be a bad influence you know. It is NOT what we profess, but what we possess.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 1, 2014 19:25:22 GMT -5
Raisn
Wow. I know you mean well. Frankly you have faith mixed up with common sense. To have Jesus as your saviour is great. To excersize your faith in the power of your God is good. Its not about theology its about the word of god (Christ Jesus) and yhe holy spirit in us (the temple of H.S) working together. The spirit and the word. The word gives clear guidelines on how to worship, how to pray, how to be overcomers. it also gives clear guidelines of how to deal with difficult situations. When we do wrong we need to be responsible for that wrong. We cant spiritualise common sense. God gave us our mind to think and discern. We have to separate the law as law abiding citizens and worshipers of God. We obey the law. We obey christ. If we break the law of the land we have to pay the price. If we sin against the lord then we repent and turn from that sin.
Everyone is designed to be a part of his plan. It isnt exclusive to a few. Christ died for all mankind.
Yes Christ lives in us because the holy spirit is in us We can also fall as christians. We are not perfect.
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Post by mdm on Nov 1, 2014 20:49:59 GMT -5
Actually, we know very well what those quotes mean. I may have not known 2 years ago, but after a year of discoveries not just through TMB, but mainly through conversations with workers and friends and through subsequent "subtle" messages in GM's, conventions, SM's, it is very clear what these quotes mean. Hmm I guess I would be what they term 'Strange children'. After I quit professing I could be a bad influence you know. Ah well, they were probably right. At that point I believed it wasn't just our group that went to heaven and although I didn't understand at the time the implications of that belief, since I've been on here I realize it was a big mistake to believe that. I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer?
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Post by withlove on Nov 2, 2014 4:16:44 GMT -5
Hmm I guess I would be what they term 'Strange children'. After I quit professing I could be a bad influence you know. Ah well, they were probably right. At that point I believed it wasn't just our group that went to heaven and although I didn't understand at the time the implications of that belief, since I've been on here I realize it was a big mistake to believe that. I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer? It is so upsetting--you're right! No doubt your children are in a wonderful home, being protected from evil and encouraged to love others. But any innocent CHILDREN, no matter how they are being raised, are CHILDREN...our example in how we are to become spiritually. Jesus loved children and was very disturbed by the Pharisees. Highly doubt Jesus would have made distinctions between good Jewish kids and Samaritan kids. He would have said allow them all to come to me. He might have said your kids can take a lesson from the Samaritan kids...their parents are charitable and not white-washed sepulchers. Just a thought. This message of keeping children of "the fold"...even if they haven't made a choice to be part of the exclusive group who believes they are the only true church...separate from their "wordly" peers, is so unhealthy and unfair and it prepares them for an awkward adulthood. If you want your children to be little lights, then teach them spiritual virtues. Teach them to be loving and kind and discerning and obedient. Teach them to value and treat each other child with honor and respect. Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even though they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. I'm not sure if he is an overseer...will get back to you on that. It is just the old message of not mingling with the world, child-version, which we've heard from every level of worker. On the plus side!! I did hear, TWICE, from other workers at convention, the opposite message...to love non-exclusively. Although one tempered it by saying "even though the world doesn't deserve it." But that might have been okay-ish, because it was a generalization...we all know there is lots of corruption and disappointment on this planet.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 2, 2014 4:19:49 GMT -5
Jesus didn't send his disciples to the university of Jerusalem to study theology as God would teach them with his holy spirit. Theology is a man-made-word,which in reality doesn't exist, so the workers never ever need to study theology for their religion. And it is not about religion. Jesus didn't come to earth to start a religion, but he came with truth and grace. He came to carve the path, which was interrupted due to the fall in the Garen of Eden. Some "rotten potatoe workers" in the bucket doesn't mean to cut all with the same brush. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. A part of Kingdom of Heaven is on earth today, and Jesus reigns over the kings of this earth. Therefore the laws in the Kingdom of Heaven is more important than the laws belonging to this earth, which also has to be obeyed according to what Paul mentioned to the Romans chapter 13 vers 1 to 7. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. Pray about it, but one day the light will judge. God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. God knows the hearth and its motives. Problems start with complaining. Think of this: faith has no questions, and doubt has no answers. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. It is in vain to complain about what God has planned. Either we are a part of his plan or not. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] This is the good salvation news. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. Life is serious and short. Dead is certain. Eternity lenght noone knows. It is either a good or bad condition. Be a part of the true wine. It also indicates there are wine which are NOT true and they are all round the earth today. Keep your children separate from Strange Children. The children of God are foreigners and strangers on this earth, but not in Kingdom of Heaven on earth today. Raisin, who are the Children of God ? You said "not our responsibility to do anything about evil" so if we know a child is being sexually abused are we suppose to just let this happen?
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2014 12:39:06 GMT -5
Hmm I guess I would be what they term 'Strange children'. After I quit professing I could be a bad influence you know. Ah well, they were probably right. At that point I believed it wasn't just our group that went to heaven and although I didn't understand at the time the implications of that belief, since I've been on here I realize it was a big mistake to believe that. I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer? I'm so sorry you're children got that label maja. I am glad you are there to take away the hurt, possibly explain why it's happening and protecting them from it. I never had that. My parents agreed with it I guess. I felt like I was such a bad person for so many years because I was told so often how I was hurting my parents, so ungrateful after all they'd done for me (I'm adopted) etc. I tried very hard to make it not matter. There was a young couple where I lived that attended our morning meeting and they were a life saver to me. I will always love them for taking me under their wing, inviting me to outings when no one else did, and even trusting me enough to babysit their young children. I really don't know what I would have done without them for that first year after I quit professing. I wasn't allowed to develop any close friendships with 'worldly' kids and the 'friendly' kids weren't allowed to be around me unless there were adults or lots of other kids in potluck situations etc. Because this young couple were very widely accepted and liked by the workers and friends, their support made my life a little easier. So I know the value of supporting your children through this. I am sure they still wonder what happened to their so called friends though. It's an eye opener for sure. Something that stays with you for life to some degree. I have always thought it was something wrong with me. I was so brainwashed to believe they were right so that made me wrong. I know now that wasn't the case, but I still feel that way in my heart, even though my head knows it's not true.
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Post by withlove on Nov 2, 2014 14:12:35 GMT -5
I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer? It is so upsetting--you're right! No doubt your children are in a wonderful home, being protected from evil and encouraged to love others. But any innocent CHILDREN, no matter how they are being raised, are CHILDREN...our example in how we are to become spiritually. Jesus loved children and was very disturbed by the Pharisees. Highly doubt Jesus would have made distinctions between good Jewish kids and Samaritan kids. He would have said allow them all to come to me. He might have said your kids can take a lesson from the Samaritan kids...their parents are charitable and not white-washed sepulchers. Just a thought. [edit: not speaking of Maja's kids here...sorry that came out weirdly.]
This message of keeping children of "the fold"...even if they haven't made a choice to be part of the exclusive group who believes they are the only true church...separate from their "wordly" peers, is so unhealthy and unfair and it prepares them for an awkward adulthood. If you want your children to be little lights, then teach them spiritual virtues. Teach them to be loving and kind and discerning and obedient. Teach them to value and treat each other child with honor and respect. Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even if they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. I'm not sure if he is an overseer...will get back to you on that. It is just the old message of not mingling with the world, child-version, which we've heard from every level of worker. On the plus side!! I did hear, TWICE, from other workers at convention, the opposite message...to love non-exclusively. Although one tempered it by saying "even though the world doesn't deserve it." But that might have been okay-ish, because it was a generalization...we all know there is lots of corruption and disappointment on this planet.
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Post by withlove on Nov 2, 2014 16:32:39 GMT -5
Jesus didn't send his disciples to the university of Jerusalem to study theology as God would teach them with his holy spirit. Theology is a man-made-word,which in reality doesn't exist, so the workers never ever need to study theology for their religion. And it is not about religion. Jesus didn't come to earth to start a religion, but he came with truth and grace. He came to carve the path, which was interrupted due to the fall in the Garen of Eden. Some "rotten potatoe workers" in the bucket doesn't mean to cut all with the same brush. Many workers are wisely studying different versions of the bible now, for clarity of language and meaning, which is a great step. To be a homeless minister without the funds to pay to study what scholars have learned over centuries about the texts and history is understandable, and certainly if the holy spirit is leading then it should be a wonderful thing. I agree that we can't let a few bad apples ruin our concept of the whole bunch, but maybe we should look at it this way:
A. The bad apples so very often are left in the barrel...by the "good" apples who know what's going on. This isn't a case of the chaff being left and removed later by the harvester. This is a case of corruption, deceit, and reckless endangerment of the sheep by the human shepherds. Wow, I'm really mixing my analogies here.
B. Are there ANY apples that have publicly explained the actual origins of the movement and apologized for the cover-up and the lying, out-right and by omission that has been the norm until present day?
C. There are trends, if not actual agreed-upon modes of operation, of how the ministry runs things. We can ignore it, as is the tradition. Who is happy about that? The ones who are in on bad stuff. And the devil. God isn't. We are above the laws of the land [context: we obey because it's the right thing to do, though]. A part of Kingdom of Heaven is on earth today, and Jesus reigns over the kings of this earth. Therefore the laws in the Kingdom of Heaven is more important than the laws belonging to this earth, which also has to be obeyed according to what Paul mentioned to the Romans chapter 13 vers 1 to 7. When we see things wrong and we want to fix them, don't, or we are robbing God of his job. Leave it to Him. Pray about it, but one day the light will judge. Life is much more than praying. I don't want to be asked on judgement day why I didn't stand up for the right.God sees everything--not our responsibility to do anything about evil. God knows the hearth and its motives. And eternity is in his hands. Here on earth, we have to protect the innocent and sanction the dangerous.Problems start with complaining. Think of this: faith has no questions, and doubt has no answers. That's fine in relation to God. Not so much with other humans. Don't complain about the way or the workers in front of your children. Only praise. [This is understandable, but it seemed within a broader context of not complaining at all to anyone]. It is in vain to complain about what God has planned. Either we are a part of his plan or not. If you think that everything that happens is an event planned by God, then there is nothing to discuss really. Gospel message in a nutshell: Life is short. Don't miss heaven. [Nothing about the good news of Jesus.] This is the good salvation news. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. Life is serious and short. Dead is certain. Eternity lenght noone knows. It is either a good or bad condition. Be a part of the true wine. It also indicates there are wine which are NOT true and they are all round the earth today. At least you mentioned Jesus. Keep your children separate from Strange Children. The children of God are foreigners and strangers on this earth, but not in Kingdom of Heaven on earth today.
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Post by withlove on Nov 2, 2014 17:21:02 GMT -5
Hmm I guess I would be what they term 'Strange children'. After I quit professing I could be a bad influence you know. Ah well, they were probably right. At that point I believed it wasn't just our group that went to heaven and although I didn't understand at the time the implications of that belief, since I've been on here I realize it was a big mistake to believe that. I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer? Yes, sorry, the strange children line was spoken by an overseer. Not sure if it was deliberate misdirection--"hey look over there at those bad people! don't turn around--we aren't doing anything wrong back here!"...or just the usual us vs. them cult routine. Either way--KIDS!
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Post by rational on Nov 2, 2014 17:26:54 GMT -5
Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even if they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. Suppose they do not believe Jesus came to save them? Following the message of Jesus, is it OK to think they are headed to a lost eternity? To teach your children that all who do not believe and follow Jesus are headed to a lost eternity?
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Post by bubbles on Nov 2, 2014 18:13:06 GMT -5
Withlove
In my day the only version was Old King James. Another version was frowned on or spoken against. The concordance was ok.
My younger kids went to Sunday school. They didnt have the hangups speaking about their belief that I had as a child. They grew up believing in the power of prayer still do.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 2, 2014 19:01:15 GMT -5
Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even if they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. Suppose they do not believe Jesus came to save them? Following the message of Jesus, is it OK to think they are headed to a lost eternity? To teach your children that all who do not believe and follow Jesus are headed to a lost eternity? Teaching your children that their "out of the TRUTH" Christians friends are headed to a lost eternity is bad.
Worst is teaching them if their friends aren't Christians they are "part of the anti-Christ."
(as someone here on this TMB board seem to believe according to their tag-line) "If you are not a Christian, you are part of the anti-Christ “ Adrian Rogers Teaching your children that if someone is "not a Christian, that person is part of the anti-Christ“ and non-Christians deserve anything cruel that happens to them, even death.
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Post by withlove on Nov 2, 2014 19:47:24 GMT -5
Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even if they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. Suppose they do not believe Jesus came to save them? Following the message of Jesus, is it OK to think they are headed to a lost eternity? To teach your children that all who do not believe and follow Jesus are headed to a lost eternity? Heck if I know when the right time to teach children about heaven and hell is. Or what it takes to get to either place. That is beyond me...although how they could help but pick up some version of "all who do not believe and follow Jesus are headed to a lost eternity" from meeting or Sunday school or peers Idk. I would never want to teach children that any other child is headed for hell. To be fair, I don't think I was taught it that bluntly either. It was more like...if they don't come to know the real story when they get old enough and decide to be part of the real church, dot dot dot. So I got the message loud and clear that my church thought outside children were blind, if still innocent, but definitely in trouble if they didn't wake up. This came with a big helping of pressure to be the best example and light possible for these poor children around me. But, as I said, I happened to be surrounded by a lot of great kids who didn't necessarily need to learn anything from me.
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2014 21:26:26 GMT -5
Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even if they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. Suppose they do not believe Jesus came to save them? Following the message of Jesus, is it OK to think they are headed to a lost eternity? To teach your children that all who do not believe and follow Jesus are headed to a lost eternity? It's not ok and it's what I was so upset about when I quit professing. Most of my family were not professing or even Christian. Only my parents, my paternal Grandfather, my maternal grandmother and an aunt were professing. I loved my aunts and they didn't even go to church. Being told they were going to a lost eternity upset me a lot. I don't know how my grandmother could have gone along with that kind of thinking when it was her daughters. For that matter, when I quit professing how could my parents believe that either. It's wrong to teach it to kids, or anyone for that matter.
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Post by mdm on Nov 2, 2014 22:49:35 GMT -5
I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer? Yes, sorry, the strange children line was spoken by an overseer. Not sure if it was deliberate misdirection--"hey look over there at those bad people! don't turn around--we aren't doing anything wrong back here!"...or just the usual us vs. them cult routine. Either way--KIDS! Yes, I agree that it probably wasn't a deliberate distraction from church problems. Still, this "us vs. them routine" is what makes the tolerance of evil within the church even more unacceptable. You have to clean our your own yard before you start pointing out the mess in your neighbor's yard. And talking about kids that way while allowing wolves in sheep's clothing in the ministry is evidence of moral/spiritual decay and corruption.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 23:34:00 GMT -5
This message of keeping children of "the fold"...even if they haven't made a choice to be part of the exclusive group who believes they are the only true church...separate from their "wordly" peers, is so unhealthy and unfair and it prepares them for an awkward adulthood. If you want your children to be little lights, then teach them spiritual virtues. Teach them to be loving and kind and discerning and obedient. Teach them to value and treat each other child with honor and respect. Don't teach them to think their classmates are going to hell or are strange. I was taught both the good and bad...that is such a twisted mind-warp and I soaked it right in. Be very nice to your friends but don't spend much time with them outside of school and btw they are headed to a lost eternity even if they believe Jesus came to save them and they seem to love him and are very well behaved...in fact they could be major examples to some of your friends in meetings. Thank you for your honest post, so good to see a 2x2 with an open mind. I know there are a number like you who are like minded. I correspond and talk to them, and it is so refreshing. However there are our 2x2 relations and others, who will have nothing to do with us, because we are not "In the Fold". I hope in time with your good work, this prejudice will disappear. When I was born my Mother nearly died due to blood poisoning. So for the first 12 months of my life I was looked after by her younger Sister, my Aunt. Naturally I bonded with her. She was a very sincere Presbyterian lady, at Church every Sunday. As I grew up I was denied much contact with this family because they were "Outsiders". I did make contact with her after leaving the 2x2's, but regret the years lost. If we went to her Church for a Wedding or Funeral, we were told to stand outside at the door and not go in the Church. I defied this instruction for my Grandmother's funeral. I received a reprimand afterwards, but to this day I do not regret my decision. I saw it as a complete insult, to stand outside. We were always asking them to come to Gospel meetings, how crazy was that. Wonder why they never came? . withlove, keep up the good work, we salute you.
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Post by withlove on Nov 3, 2014 1:01:16 GMT -5
Maja-- amen, sister. It's all backwards. Is it wrong to wish he had said "I could give you advice on how to live today, but what seems to be needed more right now is that I come clean with some wrong-doings that you should know about, and maybe you all can give us some advice on how to lead"? Redback-- thank you, but I haven't done anything really. And Idk that I will stay "in." It's nice to hear there are others out there! Our power is harnessed as long as we feel alone and stay silent. What a heartbreaking story about your family! That can't be undone. So good that you were able to break free from the bondage enough to attend your grandmother's funeral. *Hug*
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Post by withlove on Nov 3, 2014 16:26:32 GMT -5
Suppose they do not believe Jesus came to save them? Following the message of Jesus, is it OK to think they are headed to a lost eternity? To teach your children that all who do not believe and follow Jesus are headed to a lost eternity? It's not ok and it's what I was so upset about when I quit professing. Most of my family were not professing or even Christian. Only my parents, my paternal Grandfather, my maternal grandmother and an aunt were professing. I loved my aunts and they didn't even go to church. Being told they were going to a lost eternity upset me a lot. I don't know how my grandmother could have gone along with that kind of thinking when it was her daughters. For that matter, when I quit professing how could my parents believe that either. It's wrong to teach it to kids, or anyone for that matter. *Hugs* for snow! This is a big, sad problem many (most?) of the people connected with f&w have to deal with to some degree. It causes so much hurt and division even if it's not discussed. Basic Christianity involves faith, heaven and hell...although some now don't believe hell is real. It's possible to believe in those concepts and also not judge people. NT is so full of that idea...Jesus was adamant that not only is it inappropriate for us to decide people's condition of heart and salvation status, he also was not sent here to judge, and that was in the father's hands. If Jesus didn't do it, who is arrogant enough to think they should? I believe people to be vulnerable thinkers and seekers and feelers with different courses and experiences in life and we can all learn from each other. I have a tiny understanding of what God is doing with me and no idea at all what he could be doing with anyone else and it's not my business. I understand how Christianity itself can seem arrogant and cruel and exclusive. But you know some people feel a personal conviction that is about their lives and not about judging others, but loving them. Everyone's heard this stuff before...and I get where Rational and Snow are both coming from too.
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Post by withlove on Nov 3, 2014 16:38:40 GMT -5
Yes, sorry, the strange children line was spoken by an overseer. Not sure if it was deliberate misdirection--"hey look over there at those bad people! don't turn around--we aren't doing anything wrong back here!"...or just the usual us vs. them cult routine. Either way--KIDS! I would contact him and ask him to clarify what he meant. Seems odd that any overseer or worker would refer to children as STRANGE. They are after all God's creation. That will take some guts but I just might. Will review the notes...he likely made it very clear what he meant.
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Post by withlove on Nov 3, 2014 16:49:04 GMT -5
I'll admit here that it bothers me - no, it upsets me - that my children have been branded "strange" and yet the immoral and the abusers because of whom we have left the meetings have not been branded "strange." They are still safely protected by the ministry, upheld as the "anointed ones," the "true preachers" worthy of being sent into people's homes as trusted shepherds of souls. Children should never be branded, labeled, shunned. This worker has made a public statement of immense significance and is polluting the minds of those who take his words as "gospel." If this worker is an overseer, it is of even greater significance. And, if this is an overseer, he has received our letter to overseers regarding allowing the immoral/abusers to remain in the ministry. If this is an overseer and is warning the church against children and not against the immoral/abusers in the ministry, then this is ultimate inward corruption, hypocrisy and corrupting of the church. Withlove, was this spoken by an overseer? I'm so sorry you're children got that label maja. I am glad you are there to take away the hurt, possibly explain why it's happening and protecting them from it. I never had that. My parents agreed with it I guess. I felt like I was such a bad person for so many years because I was told so often how I was hurting my parents, so ungrateful after all they'd done for me (I'm adopted) etc. I tried very hard to make it not matter. There was a young couple where I lived that attended our morning meeting and they were a life saver to me. I will always love them for taking me under their wing, inviting me to outings when no one else did, and even trusting me enough to babysit their young children. I really don't know what I would have done without them for that first year after I quit professing. I wasn't allowed to develop any close friendships with 'worldly' kids and the 'friendly' kids weren't allowed to be around me unless there were adults or lots of other kids in potluck situations etc. Because this young couple were very widely accepted and liked by the workers and friends, their support made my life a little easier. So I know the value of supporting your children through this. I am sure they still wonder what happened to their so called friends though. It's an eye opener for sure. Something that stays with you for life to some degree. I have always thought it was something wrong with me. I was so brainwashed to believe they were right so that made me wrong. I know now that wasn't the case, but I still feel that way in my heart, even though my head knows it's not true. Snow, that is so heart-breaking to hear. If only that couple had been the rule rather than the exception, you could have had a much more comfortable childhood. How can anyone feel okay about ostracizing and alienating people, especially children, is a mystery to me. Too bad we can't time travel to comfort each other's child-selves.
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