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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 13:18:26 GMT -5
how are you going to make the fellowship look at the fruit? That is a good question, especially in the context of this thread, since it indicates an area of improvement that is seriously lacking. You can't make anyone look at what they don't want to (as Review005 has testified himself when he said to Ross B: "If what you state in an accurate description of events even then I would dismiss it from my mind."). But, those in place of authority can and should give people permission to judge them by their fruits and create an atmosphere in which people would not be forced to look away from problems, but seek ways to solve them. As a worker any worker following the call of god. They are placed in spiritual authority over the people. They have a responsibility To intercede for, care, nurture and feed those people in their congregation/ area. To dismiss from your mind knowledge of any kind of abuse is completely iresponsible. Whether it is sexual, physical, mental or emotional. If you cant deal with it or acknowledge and try to help you are in the wrong role.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 13:26:10 GMT -5
I cant imagine approaching a worker (someone i trusted )while traumatised and them listening then doing nothing or dismissing it from their mind. Thats criminal.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 13:39:07 GMT -5
Do you mean you want names as evidence? I could give you over 10 names but that would be hearsay because it happened to friends inside. There is another question. Do you trust the people under you spiritual oversight? Im sure you do. I just cant comprehend why you could dismiss something important from your mind. When action is what is required.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 13:54:00 GMT -5
Glad we agree on the underlined But do you see that the idea of sharing a database on the internet is meaningless to the solution of the problem? Many years ago CSA was a taboo subject, people want to protect the friends children so some kept a data base and share it with others. It was good for those who were concerned in the fellowship to find out the workers came to their fields were CSA predators, so they could keep their eyes and warn their children about him/them. Now, they don't need a database, just report the CSA workers to the authority and they will deal with the problem, no more sweeping under the carpet. To be precise, there is no sweeping under the carpet in the West and if the offense is still reportable. I am equally concerned what happens to kids in Africa or South America where this may still be a taboo. On the subject of taboo, there are still lot's of taboos in the fellowship, namely anything that has an appearance of questioning the workers and the way. Also, 35 years ago, when CSA was still very much a taboo in the fellowship, the church we are currently attending had child-protection guidelines. There, CSA was not a taboo, but a real problem that required real answers. The 2x2 fellowship still hasn't come to the level of openness and honesty that this church had 35 years ago.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 13:57:50 GMT -5
So, when someone like fixit talks about other people's experiences, you dismiss it because it didn't happen to him. And when someone like Ross B. talks about his own first-hand experiences, you still dismiss it. Is there a scenario in which you would not dismiss concerns? Oh, but then you say that even if what Ross says is true, you would still chose to dismiss it... Yes I dismiss Fixit's incorrect generalisations that cast baseless aspersions on many. Once again you again make an incorrect accusation in this instance regarding my response to Ross, rereading the post without preconceived ideas will enable you to correctly understand what I wrote. This reminds me of Lyle saying that they can only consider first-hand reports of immorality or abuse. However, when we point out that even first-hand reports we had discussed have not be acted on (the offender removed from the ministry), he doesn't reply. So, if you can't even consider 1st hand reports of abuse (spiritual or otherwise), why are you even participating in this thread? Another incorrect accusation, please refrain from such Do you really want the fellowship to improve or not?Another incorrect accusation,Do you wish to even entertain a possibility that there could be areas for improvement? Could you entertain a possibility that someone else's experiences could point out areas that need improvement? Could you make a switch from seeing those experiences not as a threat to the fellowship, or your to your faith in the fellowship, but as a light being shown on the problem so that it can be fixed? More emotional incorrect statements from an ex member who left when things weren't done her way. I have every confidence in your sincerity and integrity but I am unable to reconcile some of what you advocate with the life and teaching of Jesus Christ.I want to thank you for confirming for me the rightness of my decision to leave the fellowship.
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Post by xna on Sept 26, 2014 14:05:07 GMT -5
Glad we agree on the underlined But do you see that the idea of sharing a database on the internet is meaningless to the solution of the problem? Many years ago CSA was a taboo subject, people want to protect the friends children so some kept a data base and share it with others. It was good for those who were concerned in the fellowship to find out the workers came to their fields were CSA predators, so they could keep their eyes and warn their children about him/them. Now, they don't need a database, just report the CSA workers to the authority and they will deal with the problem, no more sweeping under the carpet. Some years ago I met up with an old friend who had two kids. They go to a catholic church. It was about the time the Catholic church sex scandal was hitting the news. I ask her if she was aware of this problem. She said; Oh yes, we are. Our church has classes to teach the kids how to identify a molesting priest.
She seemed very proud of this system, but my thought was; Why in the world would you exposed your kids to a system known to have such risks? Why not just change churches and get your kids out of harm’s way?
Such is the power of religion...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 14:17:22 GMT -5
Well, the things in life we cannot alter we leave it all to Jesus. The Hymn 287 says : When my heart is heavy burdened, and I cannot understand, what I have no power over I will leave in Jesus' hands. The chorus goes:- I will leave it all to Jesus, For I know He understands; things in life I cannot alter, I will leave in Jesus'' hands. verse 2 : Human minds so often question What pertains to good or ill, but the answer is in Jesus: All is measured by His will..
Of course they are things in life that we can alter by gentle persuasion, or by forceful action, or by perseverance by influencing changed for the better. If that is what is takes, then go for it, there in nothing wrong with that, the end result is what matters. I don't believe for a moment that it is the will of Jesus for anyone to be mistreated and abused in any form or fashion, nor do I believe that it is His will for any one, especially Hiis followers to engage themselves in immoral living etc. So such acts measured by His will surely fall short of His glory and therefore would not be acceptable in His sight. But what do I know, I am only an old fool, but not the same fool who said in his heart there is no God.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 14:21:39 GMT -5
#7: It was explained here (from the list of reasons why 1st time sexual offenders should not remain in the work): Lots of word and reasoning from Maja, but I do not find it according to the primary principles of doctrine of repentance and forgiveness that Jesus Christ taught. I have already made reference to such in previous posts So, according to the "primary principles of doctrine of repentance and forgiveness that Jesus Christ taught, a young lady that has gotten pregnant out of wedlock should be publicly punished by having her meeting participation revoked for a time, while a worker found in immorality or sexual abuse should be quietly moved to a different state/country? For a young lady there should be consequences, but for the minster, there should be a cover up? #4 & 5: If the meeting members have been notified, they can exercise vigilance with their children and restrictions (such as, not to be around children by himself) can be placed on the offender that can be easily monitored. However, conventions have more free and unstructured time where children run around and play unattended, and it is more difficult to enforce any restrictions on the offender. The offender can listen in on convention meetings via phone, just as it's already done for old/sick people. The purpose is not to alienate and offender from the fellowship, but to put in place guidelines that would minimize the chance of future re-offending. Yes what you suggest would work, are you able to accept that those known to have molested can also attend meetings of convention but be not allowed to stay at the convention property overnight and that children are safe?I am not concerned about children only during night, but also between the meetings. Here in TX we have huge convention grounds with lots of hiding places for kids to get lost outside of parents' view. Don't know if in your part of the world parents can keep track of their kids between the meetings?#8: No. Once again a Maja thought and requirement that I am unable to find scriptural basis for; your discriminatory approach to public rebuking.1 Timothy 5:19,20: Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
Why are elders singled out? Because they hold a public place of responsibility and authority. In NT days, elders had more authority than 2x2 elders have, but workers have even more authority than those elders had back than, because workers have ALL the authority in the fellowship.
I am not asking for discriminating against anyone, in fact I am asking for NOT discriminating against the lower-ranking people as practiced in the fellowship today (see #71)! But there is clear NT instruction that points to the need to treat the sin of the higher-ranking people more publicly, so that the rest of the church will not follow their example.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 14:46:24 GMT -5
If posting anonymously means nothing, why are you doing it? The day I post that a worker, a friend, anybody is having an affair and claim it is FACT. I will post with my full name and address and tel # so that I can be contacted to substantiate the allegation. My name and location are no secret. My phone# and address can be obtained through Wings site. Otherwise, I give them by PMs if someone asks. Do I qualify? I know of cases of immorality/abuse. Do you believe they happened?
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 14:55:05 GMT -5
Review005 - I accept this is your view but with respect I am not saying that I belong to a fellowship which is the only fellowship on earth where people can be saved and inherit eternal life. I am not saying that I am right and others are wrong. That is regularly the sentiment or the message that I get from your posts. "Workers do this but our preacher does this" 2x2s do this but our church has something better we do it like this" You often post critically of workers but disapprove of workers speaking critically of ministers, and so it goes on.
In the majority of my posts (where I have also commented on some of the positives in the fellowship) I am simply trying to compare and contrast what God's Word is saying versus what a number of the workers are saying. I am committed to doing this for two reasons: 1. When we left we were told by Clyde MacKay (New South Wales Head Worker) that because we had questioned part of his message that it was the same as questioning Jesus and that we had committed blasphemy for doing so. 2. In the light of (1) there are folk still in the fellowship who have major questions about exclusivity and doctrinal matters who ask us questions (in person or via email) from time to time. Because they cannot get these questions answered satisfactorily they ask people who have been through the experience. How correct or incorrect what you attribute to Clyde does not affect my relationship with God or my dear brothers and sisters in this fellowship. If one individual told me that because I questioned him.... If what you state in an accurate description of events even then I would dismiss it from my mind. I know that is an incorrect statement by an individual. I also know this fellowship is God's place and plan for me. Btw I don't make posts in the reverse of what you do. Perhaps this may help you understand how your posting is coming across. Since you say I misunderstood you, would you mind explaining the underlined sentence in the last paragraph? I've reread it and I still can't understand it differently than the 1st time. Thanks.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 15:00:45 GMT -5
Maja A young lady is punished and a worker quietly moved. That is wrong. A policy of refusing to allow a worker who has fallen once in immorality to continue to have a place in the work is also wrong. There is no NT scripture that I am aware of that teaches: A worker/member of ministry comes immorality/sin and must be publicly rebuked and when one of the laity does it is not required of them. This discriminatory practice you advocate has no basis in scripture that I am aware of. So, you agree that there is problem of double standards?
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 15:12:32 GMT -5
Well, if you are professing keep your eyes and ears in the 2x2 grapevines, and STAY alert yourself. If you don't feel comfortable with so and so workers just invite them for supper and NOT Welcome them to stay overnights. Nathan, I'm sorry, I didn't think you would take my suggestion seriously. Of course there can be no data-base. I was only trying to show how unworkable your solution is. Relying on the grape-vine as you suggest is NOT the solution to the fellowship problems.The solution can only come from real steps to deal with problems, not to work around them. When a stranger attends gospel meetings and over time conforms outwardly they are said to be "getting it". What the fellowship needs is a greater focus on the inward. Sexual immorality in the fellowship is a symptom of a spiritual lack. The law of Christ within my heart Is strong to keep me free; Obedience to the mind of Christ Brings inward purity.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 15:16:18 GMT -5
My name and location are no secret. My phone# and address can be obtained through Wings site. Otherwise, I give them by PMs if someone asks. Do I qualify? I know of cases of immorality/abuse. Do you believe they happened? How do you expect me to know of the veracity of your allegations? my statement was: The day I post that a worker, a friend, anybody is having an affair and claim it is FACT. I will post with my full name and address and tel # so that I can be contacted to substantiate the allegation.Putting my full name and contact info on a public forum is not something I would do. The main reason is that I don't want my family and friends (non-professing) to find out through googling my name what issues the church I was in for 16 years has. It would be very troubling and shocking to them, and for me beyond embarrassing. But everybody who reads here or on Wings can get my contact info either through Admins or directly from me. Everybody knows I live in Willis, TX. On Wings, our initials are A&M M. Is that enough to be believed? But you know, nobody expects you or anyone else to have blind faith in what is said here, but just to be open to the possibility that it is true and not automatically discount it and shoot the messenger.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 15:18:58 GMT -5
So, you agree that there is problem of double standards? I understand your response to what you see as a double standard is to advocate double standard. 'two wrongs make a right' mentality Those were two different points. One is based on common sense, the other one on scripture. Let's look at them separately. My question is: Do you agree with anything on the list regardless of everything else you don't agree with?
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 15:19:55 GMT -5
Glad we agree on the underlined But do you see that the idea of sharing a database on the internet is meaningless to the solution of the problem? Many years ago CSA was a taboo subject, people want to protect the friends children so some kept a data base and share it with others. It was good for those who were concerned in the fellowship to find out the workers came to their fields were CSA predators, so they could keep their eyes and warn their children about him/them. Now, they don't need a database, just report the CSA workers to the authority and they will deal with the problem, no more sweeping under the carpet. A better solution is to awaken the conscience of workers and friends so they realise its better to have less workers than to place child molesters into children's homes.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 26, 2014 15:25:11 GMT -5
Virgo, I read the same bible you do, I pray to the same God you do. When applying the bible to my life I saw that changes had to be made and those changes meant that I had to find a church that stacked up to what the bible teaches. For reasons that have been gone over ad nauseum on TMB that precludes going to the same church as you.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 15:54:45 GMT -5
To be precise, there is no sweeping under the carpet in the West and if the offense is still reportable. I am equally concerned what happens to kids in Africa or South America where this may still be a taboo. On the subject of taboo, there are still lot's of taboos in the fellowship, namely anything that has an appearance of questioning the workers and the way. Also, 35 years ago, when CSA was still very much a taboo in the fellowship, the church we are currently attending had child-protection guidelines. There, CSA was not a taboo, but a real problem that required real answers. The 2x2 fellowship still hasn't come to the level of openness and honesty that this church had 35 years ago. 35 yrs hardly any church wants to deal with CSA just like the 2x2 fellowship. Look at the RCC, After many years of hiding the CSA priests, they are gradually learn how to deal with CSA just like the 2x2. Let the authority deals with them. There was sweeping under the carpet with Reuben M. case on the California staff. In Oregon about the elder/Ginestar sexually abused his adopted daughters in the 2000s it was a hush, hush, thing.... I hope the overseers, and workers in USA, Canada and other countries will work harder to stamp out CSA within the ministry so other kids in Africa, S. America feel safe around the workers. It goes without saying that 2x2 church and RCC are very similar, minus the cathedrals, press conferences and involvement in politics. OK, that's actually a lot. But, both are 'catholic,' have a celibate ministry, a hierarchy, and the ministry has all the authority without transparency or accountability. They should not be held up as a measuring stick for anything. I was talking about protestant churches...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 26, 2014 16:00:54 GMT -5
Have to agree Fixit ! If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up ! And before you ask Review, I know this for a FACT ! With due respect your claim of FACT posted anonymously means what?.... Not a great deal to me. ...certainly not substantiation of fixit's next incorrect generalisation. I could name names, of workers in NZ getting woman pregnant, of workers in NZ engaging in homosexual activity and paying for it, of workers in NZ found having sex with one of the friends daughters. However I would not name them on here, I do not judge them, I merely point out to you that these things have happened. If you refuse to believe them then that is your problem and I guess says a fair bit about you.
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Post by xna on Sept 26, 2014 16:11:04 GMT -5
Some years ago I met up with an old friend who had two kids. They go to a catholic church. It was about the time the Catholic church sex scandal was hitting the news. I ask her if she was aware of this problem. She said; Oh yes, we are. Our church has classes to teach the kids how to identify a molesting priest.
She seemed very proud of this system, but my thought was; Why in the world would you exposed your kids to a system known to have such risks? Why not just change churches and get your kids out of harm’s way?
Such is the power of religion...
RCC is NOT the only one has problems with CSA priests. The 2x2s has the same problem, so does MANY of the Protestant churches out there. CSA has to do with demonic powers/spirits trying to zap the young innocence energy/life from them, it puts them in bondage emotionally, spiritually, and physically. It's the work of the dark force/Satan and his 1/3 demonic fallen angels army.The RCC is big, so it gets more press. Until I joined this TMB I was not aware that 2x2 CSA was a problem. The cover up worked. Here is how I see it: All preachers have control over their adherents. People in positions of power are often offered sexual favors. Many are not able to resist these temptations. Being celibate is an unnatural state. Very few are asexual by nature. The 2x2 and RCC both have a celibate clergy, so in addition to the power and control temptations, they suffer doubly.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 16:15:06 GMT -5
Putting my full name and contact info on a public forum is not something I would do. The main reason is that I don't want my family and friends (non-professing) to find out through googling my name what issues the church I was in for 16 years has. It would be very troubling and shocking to them, and for me beyond embarrassing. But everybody who reads here or on Wings can get my contact info either through Admins or directly from me. Everybody knows I live in Willis, TX. On Wings, our initials are A&M M. Is that enough to be believed? But you know, nobody expects you or anyone else to have blind faith in what is said here, but just to be open to the possibility that it is true and not automatically discount it and shoot the messenger. Substantiate your accusation please. I am sorry, can you specify what exactly came across as an accusation?
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Post by Admin on Sept 26, 2014 16:54:04 GMT -5
A Youth Program would be a great addition to the 2x2 church Thank you open mind, this is exactly the kind of succinct suggestion we are hoping for on this thread. Maybe Bert will start a list for us? How would you envisage a Youth Program operating? admin
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Post by Admin on Sept 26, 2014 17:07:58 GMT -5
I hope and pray for improvement in the fellowship. Jason Prayer! Thanks Jason for the reminder. The way to revival is through prayer, and more prayer. It's God's work. admin
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 17:10:58 GMT -5
With due respect your claim of FACT posted anonymously means what?.... Not a great deal to me. ...certainly not substantiation of fixit's next incorrect generalisation. I could name names, of workers in NZ getting woman pregnant, of workers in NZ engaging in homosexual activity and paying for it, of workers in NZ found having sex with one of the friends daughters. However I would not name them on here, I do not judge them, I merely point out to you that these things have happened. If you refuse to believe them then that is your problem and I guess says a fair bit about you.
Your concerns won't be accepted because you are no longer attending meetings. Maja's concerns were not accepted when she attended meetings, nor are they accepted now because she "didn't get her own way" and left. Rongo's concerns are not accepted because he lives in another country. I attend meetings but my concerns are not accepted because I haven't addressed them to AR and the workers and friends in my local field. Can we see a pattern here?
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 17:24:29 GMT -5
A better solution is to awaken the conscience of workers and friends so they realise its better to have less workers than to place child molesters into children's homes. Wow there are still people like this? or is this the next of your regular incorrect generalizations What has been done to change the culture? Graham Thompson tried to awaken the conscience of workers and friends on 4th June 2012 and I seem to recall you condemning it: wingsfortruth.info/responding-to-csa/sermon-by-graham-thompson/
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 17:25:55 GMT -5
Prayer! Thanks Jason for the reminder. The way to revival is through prayer, and more prayer. It's God's work. admin I wonder how many of the prominent TMB posters give as much time to praying about their concerns as they do to posting on TMB? As a prominent poster yourself, perhaps you could tell us of your personal experience with this.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 17:26:22 GMT -5
Things I wouldn't change: Workers, conventions, any doctrine, baptism, anything about meetings and how they are held. Things I would change: Move any assets, administrative, financial and other matters to a board appointed/ elected by the friends. - I think this was a miscue in terms of restoring the NT church. Clearly Acts 6 indicates the apostles at the time did not deal with many of these matters. The workers should read more doctrine, at least from the perspective of how their movement stands in relation to orthodox Christianity. - The early workers were raised in established churches and their movement was a reaction against established doctrine. Each subsequent generation of workers risks losing how the church (at large) has changed throughout its history, and where the friends' movement is situated in relation to that history. They also become successively less effective in explaining their point of view to friends' and those interested in the church. - However, I don't believe the friends' church should have a written doctrine. This is something personally that I liked about the church. It would be fine for workers to write or publish their thoughts and experiences, though. Cease the prohibition on recording the history of the movement and the workers, as it goes along. Encourage the recording and publication of the present day history of the church. Reconcile themselves to the history collected and recorded by Cherie Kropp and others. - Clearly it was okay to do this in Bible days. Why is it not okay now? The problem is that without an actual history, the movement is susceptible to fables. If people don't have an explanation for something, they tend to invent one. What Hat, do any of the things you propose address the reason you left the meetings? If not, is there a change that, had it been in place, would have prevented the development of events that lead to your leaving?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 18:33:46 GMT -5
A Youth Program would be a great addition to the 2x2 church Thank you open mind, this is exactly the kind of succinct suggestion we are hoping for on this thread. Maybe Bert will start a list for us? How would you envisage a Youth Program operating? admin You begin with about 4 people. You go to christian book shop they have material you an use for bible study. Set up one night week. Then sit down and plan out 6 mths activities for your sat evenings. In winter evening games summer picnics outdoor games. You are spiritual mentors as well as fun providers so you need to be able to interceed, cook and bake Commnication love and lots of laughter. Delgate other parents to help on big outings. Depends on your age group.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 18:41:38 GMT -5
Have to agree Fixit ! If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up ! And before you ask Review, I know this for a FACT ! With due respect your claim of FACT posted anonymously means what?.... Not a great deal to me. ...certainly not substantiation of fixit's next incorrect generalisation. This is why websites like Cherie's are necessary - because head-in-sand folks don't want to deal with the issues. Anonymous poster Review005: Now that Roselyn uses her real name, I suppose there will be another excuse for dismissing what she is saying?
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