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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 2:01:07 GMT -5
This thread is now up to page nine.
I can't recall any suggestions from Review005 for 'ways for the F&W fellowship to improve'.
Apart from changing himself (which would be a good start) but I rather think the OP had something more meaningful in mind.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 26, 2014 2:28:35 GMT -5
The selective mercy on this thread seems like a double standard to me. If an unmarried woman finds herself pregnant she's made a public example of. However the same behaviour from a worker is excused or hidden. Have to agree Fixit ! If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up ! And before you ask Review, I know this for a FACT !
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 3:54:38 GMT -5
Let us consider that we are all vulnerable creatures, we make mistakes because we are not perfect. Let us consider Saul the persecuter of the early Christian church, he was consenting to the stoning of Stephen and his death. However, God was able to make a change in his life on his way to Tarsus when he heard the voice of Jesus and saw that bright light so that he became an apostle of Christ and became Paul. From his past reputation some of the early Christians feared him, but he was a changed man of God. With God all things are possible, we should bear that in mind when contemplatingg making changes. Let us also consider that people known for numerous offenses have been allowed to continue on in the work. Let us consider that there are those who have not shown signs of repentance, and are still in the work. Let us consider that the ministry as a whole has not demonstrated willingness or ability to commit to dealing with (even repeated) sexual immorality/abuse in its ranks uprightly and that many have been harmed as a result.... If sexual immorality is what you had in mind in your post. With God, all is possible, but is man hindering? Dear friend , I understand that you are hurting and that you obviously have a Fixation on sexual immorality, but if you carefully read my posts On that subject you would see that I have made my position quite clear, I do not condone it and I have pointed out that it is dangerous to trust offenders again. In most countries, they are brought to justice it they are reported, prosecuted and when found guilty they are punished and are put on an offenders list., which means they cannot have anything to do with minors unless they are supervised. Ps. God is almighty, man cannot hinder Him or His work, He acts in His own good time not necessarily in our time.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 4:09:15 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 4:18:12 GMT -5
LOL, get a hold of yourself fixit, very funny, that left me in stitches.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 26, 2014 4:51:34 GMT -5
Have to agree Fixit ! If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up ! And before you ask Review, I know this for a FACT ! With due respect your claim of FACT posted anonymously means what?.... Not a great deal to me. ...certainly not substantiation of fixit's next incorrect generalisation. So does that mean when you post anonymously it means nothing ? Review I have no problem with anyone knowing who I am ! Is that the best deflection you have for something that YOU know happens ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 26, 2014 5:07:22 GMT -5
Are you doubting what I am saying Review ? Are you saying people have not been stood down for marrying outsiders ? Are you saying people have not been stood down for D&R ? Wow maybe I need to go & see Malcolm C & tell him I can take part again .... because according to you it doesn't happen !!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 5:10:15 GMT -5
Hey folks, let us keep the discussions civil eh, I believe that it grieves God's heart when His people engage in slanging matches. Do you count yourself as one of His people?Then standards must be set and respected. I hold myself to that as well.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 26, 2014 5:14:16 GMT -5
Have to agree Fixit ! If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up ! And before you ask Review, I know this for a FACT ! With due respect your claim of FACT posted anonymously means what?.... Not a great deal to me. ...certainly not substantiation of fixit's next incorrect generalisation. Just wanted to let you know Review I have changed my avatar to my name ! So what does that change for you ?
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 5:44:42 GMT -5
Now is the sand your TMB online life? Do you ever pull your head out of it? Clearly you despise TMB. Why do you come here?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 26, 2014 6:09:05 GMT -5
Are you doubting what I am saying Review ? Are you saying people have not been stood down for marrying outsiders ? Are you saying people have not been stood down for D&R ? Wow maybe I need to go & see Malcolm C & tell him I can take part again .... because according to you it doesn't happen !!
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 6:23:25 GMT -5
I cant understand the punishment of not being allowed to take part in meeting. Speaking always terrified me anyway. You are made to feel they want to teach you a lesson for doing wrong. Control.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 8:51:01 GMT -5
Let us also consider that people known for numerous offenses have been allowed to continue on in the work. Let us consider that there are those who have not shown signs of repentance, and are still in the work. Let us consider that the ministry as a whole has not demonstrated willingness or ability to commit to dealing with (even repeated) sexual immorality/abuse in its ranks uprightly and that many have been harmed as a result.... If sexual immorality is what you had in mind in your post. With God, all is possible, but is man hindering? Dear friend , I understand that you are hurting and that you obviously have a Fixation on sexual immorality, but if you carefully read my posts On that subject you would see that I have made my position quite clear, I do not condone it and I have pointed out that it is dangerous to trust offenders again. In most countries, they are brought to justice it they are reported, prosecuted and when found guilty they are punished and are put on an offenders list., which means they cannot have anything to do with minors unless they are supervised. Ps. God is almighty, man cannot hinder Him or His work, He acts in His own good time not necessarily in our time. Sorry, it appeared you post was in the context of sexual immorality. May I comment on you Ps? God is almighty, but man has free will, and God does not impose on man's free will. If those in place of church authority are closing their hearts to God, God is not going to force them to accept His guidance. That's why Jesus warned against false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing, because we have to make discernment about those who want to be spiritual leaders so we are not putting ourselves under the shepherding of those whose hearts are closed to God. It is each and everyone's responsibility for their own soul. Yes, I am fixated on the issue of sexual immorality in a celibate ministry that relies on hospitality of trusting people. I don't want the immoral in my home under the mantle of spiritual authority and help. How can they help me or guide me? I don't want their influence in my home and family. That's why I don't have a TV - I don't want influence of baseness. I cannot get over the fact that I have indeed had immoral workers in my home. I cannot get over the fact that nobody finds anything wrong with that. I cannot get over the fact that I cannot get an assurance that it won't happen again. I am fixated on it because sexual immorality and turning a blind eye on it is warned against and condemned over and over and over again in the Bible. I am fixated on it because John the Baptist lost his head over it. I am fixated on it because it is not a "problem," but a symptom of a deeper problem. I am not talking just about sexual abuse, which you refer to, and which can be reported and handled by secular authorities. I am talking about consensual sexual immorality, which can only be handled by spiritual authority of the church. I feel deceived to find out that those in place of spiritual authority do not want to deal with this issue which can only be handled by them.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 10:05:35 GMT -5
How correct or incorrect what you attribute to Clyde does not affect my relationship with God or my dear brothers and sisters in this fellowship. If one individual told me that because I questioned him.... If what you state in an accurate description of events even then I would dismiss it from my mind. I know that is an incorrect statement by an individual. I also know this fellowship is God's place and plan for me. So, when someone like fixit talks about other people's experiences, you dismiss it because it didn't happen to him. And when someone like Ross B. talks about his own first-hand experiences, you still dismiss it. Is there a scenario in which you would not dismiss concerns? Oh, but then you say that even if what Ross says is true, you would still chose to dismiss it... This reminds me of Lyle saying that they can only consider first-hand reports of immorality or abuse. However, when we point out that even first-hand reports we had discussed have not be acted on (the offender removed from the ministry), he doesn't reply. So, if you can't even consider 1st hand reports of abuse (spiritual or otherwise), why are you even participating in this thread? Do you really want the fellowship to improve or not? Do you wish to even entertain a possibility that there could be areas for improvement? Could you entertain a possibility that someone else's experiences could point out areas that need improvement? Could you make a switch from seeing those experiences not as a threat to the fellowship, or your to your faith in the fellowship, but as a light being shown on the problem so that it can be fixed?
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 10:30:34 GMT -5
2) Yes, I agree with you about being fruit inspectors also.
There are false apostles, teachers among the 2x2s just like in the days of the apostles. We watch them by the way they live and how they are conducting among us. We can tell the CSA workers or their helpers are NOT welcome into our homes. We hope and pray that they will REPENT from their sins before it too late.
We have professing friends who have advised us the same - just don't welcome untrustworthy workers into your home. I don't know why that solution never made complete sense to me, perhaps it's because for the life of me I couldn't distinguish the rotten ones from the good one just by looking at them. But now that you mention this solution again, I have an idea that I think would resolve my quandry: Can you please create a mechanism through which all the friends would be informed of all the "CSA workers and their helpers," so they can know who to welcome or not in their homes? Perhaps this is what was missing during the 16 years we were professing!? Oh, and while we are at it, could I add to the order a list of the workers who have engaged in sexual abuse/immorality and of their helpers? Of course, this would have to involve a world-wide database where all the overseers can enter the names of those on their staff who have been reported to them for immorality/abuse. Someone could create a web page where that information could be accessed by the friends whenever new workers are assigned to their field, at Special Meeting time and Convention time. Oh, and when they travel. (For example, a concerned friend who travelled to my part of the world recently asked me if there was any worker they should stay clear from.) Thank you. Let me know if I can donate money or time for the project, I would love to help.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 10:56:59 GMT -5
how are you going to make the fellowship look at the fruit? That is a good question, especially in the context of this thread, since it indicates an area of improvement that is seriously lacking. You can't make anyone look at what they don't want to (as Review005 has testified himself when he said to Ross B: "If what you state in an accurate description of events even then I would dismiss it from my mind."). But, those in place of authority can and should give people permission to judge them by their fruits and create an atmosphere in which people would not be forced to look away from problems, but seek ways to solve them.
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Post by matisse on Sept 26, 2014 11:04:32 GMT -5
Fixit a nice selfie you have posted?, yes the height and body shape is correct. how did you manage the camera, you must be one of those clever folks with a camera? I notice you post selfies with yourself in this pose regularly. Now is the sand your TMB online life? Do you ever pull your head out of it? Beside selfies and generalisations.... anything to improve the fellowship? Funny thing...I don't know about anyone else looking on here, but the more you post, review005, the more of a sense of kinship and admiration I feel for your targets. It is possible that you are helping to strengthen ties here on TMB.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:20:02 GMT -5
This was not the only issue that we placed before F&W's. Here is the complete list: 1) that NO known child molester is allowed to enter or remain in the work; 2) that all senior workers will work to effect a change in the fellowship culture for the purpose of creating a safer environment for children; 3) that in cases of alleged CSA, parents of victims, adult victims, and other concerned individuals will be encouraged to report allegations to authorities, and that workers will not try to judge whether an allegation is true or false, but will allow trained and authorized professionals to investigate; 4) that if a known child molester is placed in a meeting, people in the meeting will be notified, so that they can exercise due vigilance with their children; 5) that NO known child molester will be allowed to attend conventions; 6) that NO ONE who has committed sexual immorality (regardless of whether it’s consensual or abusive in nature) is allowed to remain in the work; 7) that there will be ONE standard on how to deal with those who have committed sins of sexual immorality regardless of their place and position in the church, and regardless of the presence or lack of an outward evidence of their sin; 8) that those who have abused the trust given to them because of their place in the ministry through sexual immorality and abuse will not be eased out of work in a secretive way, but will be openly rebuked before the church. Would you agree with anything on this list? explain #7. I do not wish to misunderstand and then; as you have done to on several occasions on this thread; accuse me of something that was never in my mind. #4  on what basis do you consider it appropriate for a known child molester being allowed to attend meeting but not attend convention? #8 You don't consider it necessary for all in the church who have been sexually immoral to be openly rebuked before the church? We communicate for the purpose of relating what is on our mind. We are not always successful in that or in understanding what someone else has on their mind. You can always clarify what you had in mind, without taking it personally and calling it accusations. But, when terminology or ideas are repeated and when they echo things I've heard within the same context and within the same group of people, I cannot help but but make connections. #7: It was explained here (from the list of reasons why 1st time sexual offenders should not remain in the work): avoiding the trap of double standards: There is one standard for the workers and another for the friends. When a young lady gets pregnant through pre-marital sex, her rebuke and punishment are public. Yet, when a worker is found in the same sin, his rebuke if any is in private and punishment nonexistent. Let me contrast that by giving an example from the church we are currently attending. When one of the ministers in that congregation was found to be having an adulterous relationship with someone’s wife, his sin was publicly announced, he was removed from the position in the ministry, and required to undergo counseling. However, if it had been a regular member who was found in adultery, his sin would not have been made public, because he is not in a place of authority and responsibility. and here (from our letter to Overseers, 2013): Additionally, we do not understand the inconsistency of how sexual immorality has been dealt with in the
fellowship at large. The sin of sexual immorality appears to fall into two different categories depending
on who committed it: when a young woman is “caught in adultery” by way of physical signs of pregnancy,
she receives public rebuke and punishment through not being allowed to take part in meeting; yet, when
a man is “caught in adultery,” there are no outward consequences. Even worse, when a worker has
committed fornication, he is not only allowed to remain in full fellowship, but even allowed to remain in
position of spiritual leadership and authority. If someone is carrying the evidence of their sin outwardly,
they will be punished; but if there is no outward evidence, there is no punishment. And yet the sin is the
same! And not even the same, for the sin of the one in the place of spiritual leadership is much graver
compared to the sin of one who doesn’t claim to be the Gospel bearer!#4 & 5: If the meeting members have been notified, they can exercise vigilance with their children and restrictions (such as, not to be around children by himself) can be placed on the offender that can be easily monitored. However, conventions have more free and unstructured time where children run around and play unattended, and it is more difficult to enforce any restrictions on the offender. The offender can listen in on convention meetings via phone, just as it's already done for old/sick people. The purpose is not to alienate and offender from the fellowship, but to put in place guidelines that would minimize the chance of future re-offending. #8: No. As explained in answer to #7, it's the ministry that carries greater responsibility, and even sets the tone for the rest of the fellowship. (I assume you are not asking here about cases such as described in 1 Corinthians 5 where the man wouldn't stop his immoral behavior.)
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:22:39 GMT -5
We have professing friends who have advised us the same - just don't welcome untrustworthy workers into your home. I don't know why that solution never made complete sense to me, perhaps it's because for the life of me I couldn't distinguish the rotten ones from the good one just by looking at them. But now that you mention this solution again, I have an idea that I think would resolve my quandry: Can you please create a mechanism through which all the friends would be informed of all the "CSA workers and their helpers," so they can know who to welcome or not in their homes? Perhaps this is what was missing during the 16 years we were professing!? Oh, and while we are at it, could I add to the order a list of the workers who have engaged in sexual abuse/immorality and of their helpers? Of course, this would have to involve a world-wide database where all the overseers can enter the names of those on their staff who have been reported to them for immorality/abuse. Someone could create a web page where that information could be accessed by the friends whenever new workers are assigned to their field, at Special Meeting time and Convention time. Oh, and when they travel. (For example, a concerned friend who travelled to my part of the world recently asked me if there was any worker they should stay clear from.) Thank you. Let me know if I can donate money or time for the project, I would love to help. Maybe WINGS website can take a lead on this project. The friends, the workers can help to eliminate immorality, CSA abuse within our fellowship/ministry. They must report CSA friends or workers to the authority these days, no more sweeping under the carpet, but sometimes they can go under radar and undetected among us. WINGS website operates by most of the professing friends. The friends can check for workers information on WINGS.
The overseers, the workers must take CSA workers, and immorality within the ministry seriously or the friends will NOT welcome them into their homes. If the situation is NOT taken care of ASAP then the workers will find themselves living in apartments for the safety of the friends wives and children.
wingsbts.proboards.com/Wings could not help here because they are only able to mention names of convicted offenders, and those are not in the work any more anyway.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:26:11 GMT -5
As others have pointed out, Ray was navigating the politics of the organization. I haven't met Ray but I've heard that he's a good man. It's sad that the system puts so much pressure on good men. I am unable to understand how folk post One of the top leaders, Ray Hoffman, seems to place a higher value on service in the ministry than on protecting children's homes from sexually immoral workers i.e. he seems to compartmentalize the two issues of service to the ministry on the one hand and sexual immorality on the other. Are workers so much higher than the friends that we should be thankful even for the sexually immoral ones?
and then when asked if they made use of the opportunity to get the answer to their question change tack and say "Ray is a good man, it's the system."When folk instead of posting as above contact the man and give him opportunity to explain himself then their posts will have meaning. fixit did answer your question by saying that he hasn't met Ray.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:33:14 GMT -5
Ideally, on this thread we would discuss only systemic issues - but personalities become part of the discussion when examples of systemic failure are referred to. Good folk contact the personality who implemented the systemic failure to give opportunity to the personality to at least give some explanation. Then folk can post meaningfully rather than the present systemic tMB posting failures. So if fixit told you of his conversation with someone, you would take it seriously. But to Ross B you say: "If what you state in an accurate description of events even then I would dismiss it from my mind." Can you please help us understand that? (My reading between the lines is that you are only looking for cop-outs so you don't have to consider what people tell you, but please don't feel attacked, rather explain.)
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Post by matisse on Sept 26, 2014 11:43:41 GMT -5
I know review005 behind the scene in private, he is a very caring person/worker, he loves the 2x2 fellowship. He dislikes for CSA workers among us. I hope he will take things seriously and try to answer the readers questions honestly, and truthfully on here. I know he can do it so let us encourage him to open up his good side. Try NOT to attack him personally. He has taken his time to post on TMB and that is good. Try to Bring the best of him out in the open, he has a lot of good things to offer. Perhaps he will find my feedback useful, perhaps not.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:45:28 GMT -5
Maja Are you serious or playing games? You say "insert the word repented" You have been wasting your time & my time if you think I had anything else but a repentant sinner in mind from the time I first made the statement. Funny, that is the exact thought I had: "Is he serious or playing games? I don't have time for this!" I sure haven't used the word "repented" anywhere. Why would anyone want to analyse a repented sin??? The analysis is necessary so that one can come to repentance. I feel I should give you an example: a person is caught doing something he shouldn't. Since he's been caught red-handed, he can't deny it, so of course he sheds tears and promises he will never do it again. Are his words evidence of repentance? No. He has to be given time and space and help to think hard about what he did, why he did it, how it impacts his soul and his relationship with God and others, before he can even be expected to come to repentance.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:50:21 GMT -5
Wings could not help here because they are only able to mention names of convicted offenders, and those are not in the work any more anyway. Well, if you are professing keep your eyes and ears in the 2x2 grapevines, and STAY alert yourself. If you don't feel comfortable with so and so workers just invite them for supper and NOT Welcome them to stay overnights.Nathan, I'm sorry, I didn't think you would take my suggestion seriously. Of course there can be no data-base. I was only trying to show how unworkable your solution is. Relying on the grape-vine as you suggest is NOT the solution to the fellowship problems.The solution can only come from real steps to deal with problems, not to work around them.
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 11:53:19 GMT -5
The selective mercy on this thread seems like a double standard to me. If an unmarried woman finds herself pregnant she's made a public example of. However the same behaviour from a worker is excused or hidden. No doubt you'll be able substantiate & prove your allegation? Your track record is not strong; but please surprise us this time ! Something beyond the sweeping and incorrect generalisations that you excell in. Which part of what fixit says do you need proof for? Perhaps I can help. That an unmarried woman who finds herself pregnant is made a public example of, or that the same behavior from a worker is excused or hidden?
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 12:28:03 GMT -5
Have to agree Fixit ! If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up ! And before you ask Review, I know this for a FACT ! With due respect your claim of FACT posted anonymously means what?.... Not a great deal to me. ...certainly not substantiation of fixit's next incorrect generalisation. If posting anonymously means nothing, why are you doing it?
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 12:31:35 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm sorry, I didn't think you would take my suggestion seriously. Of course there can be no data-base. I was only trying to show how unworkable your solution is. Relying on the grape-vine as you suggest is NOT the solution to the fellowship problems.The solution can only come from real steps to deal with problems, not to work around them. My 2x2 website/message board, participation on TMB, going to meetings, work, and my family keep me very Busy. I have no time for what you're asking me to do. You're welcome to take on the project yourself and maybe with the help from those in the fellowship.
I have tried to educate, warn the workers and the friends about CSA 14 yrs ago on my 2x2 website/message board. They need to be on the alert, look out for these things to protect themselves, their families, and children. The overseers, the workers, the friends must NOT take CSA, immorality in the ministry/fellowship lightly.
2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/52/children-sexual-abuse-2x2-fellowship
The great danger of fornication, adultery, and remarriage.... Eternal death without repentance.
2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/53/divorce-remarriage
Please read my reply again. My suggestion was just a joke to demonstrate the impossibility of your solution to the problem. OK?
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2014 12:52:23 GMT -5
Please read my reply again. My suggestion was just a joke to demonstrate the impossibility of your solution to the problem. OK? No, problem. Somebody tried your joke suggestion in the past on TMB. They had a database names of the CSA workers and that information was shared with the friends who were seriously interested. It's a law they must report CSA to the authority ASAP or they will get into serious trouble.Glad we agree on the underlined But do you see that the idea of sharing a database on the internet is meaningless to the solution of the problem?
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