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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 8, 2014 20:40:35 GMT -5
NO. There really doesn't need to be any "resolving to something," by either a 'God' or 'Evolution!'
It all really could have came about for naught!
People are intentional beings. We have goals to meet and intentions of meeting what ever goal that may be.
Therefore, we tend to think that everything else is done by intention.
We believe that everything that happens, happens for a reason by some intention.
However, That doesn't mean that everything else must have a reason.
I'm glad to meet you God. I'm glad to know (though it makes me sad) that you know that nothing happens for any particular reason. Actually, not me or anyone else (including you) are a "god". -
It is humbling to realize that we are NOT so important in great scheme of things of life, because there simply ISN'T any "great scheme of things!"
I can see how it might make you "sad." Sad to think that one isn't even a pawn on the chess board of life because there isn't a chessboard or any chess game!!
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 8, 2014 21:39:52 GMT -5
I disagree, I believe that myths are just a product of the imagination. I don't think they explain anything that is real.
The only things that are real are the thing that actually take place. Then people attempt to understand them. The conclusions they come to are all about the psychological needs of people.
One of the factors that happened when a part of our brain development came to the point we begin to be able to use it we begin able to think in the present. We also could remember what happened in our past.
Using those two abilities, people begin to extrapolate a possible happening in our future. Both the present & the past both weren't all that wonderful and actually was very bleak.
So they attempted to create a picture of something better for out future, -If not a better life on this earth, a better one after death.
To me, that is more interesting than anything. The question of why people seem to have such a need to create those "myths."
The created the myths, because they couldn't accept NOT knowing! Myths were created because they needed to have a reason for something happening. They simply couldn't accept the fact that the instances might be random and there simply wasn't any reason! So, they created a myth of a rosier future
In a nut shell, you nailed it when you said :
"The Bible and Christian experience are entirely made out of metaphors and these can have a very rich meaning for Christian believer"
However , for me, there wouldn't be any " rich meaning" because I would know that I be deceiving myself!
Do you wonder why we CAN wonder about who we are, and a greater sense of purpose for the Universe? When you say "there simply wasn't any reason", it strikes me that you also can not accept NOT knowing. Because in truth you don't know whether the events of our lives are random or not. The least you could do is say, there might be a reason or might not; we really don't know. It sounds like your saying "there is NO reason" and that's all there is to it. If metaphors were purely an invention then there would be no way of saying one metaphor is better than another. Marvel Comics is as good as the Bible, by that line of thinking. (Although I sometimes think that some views based on the Bible are not much better than a Marvel comic.) We had a look at native spirituality recently, reading some tales from the lore of indigenous natives. I think there is something to it; the concept of a 'trickster' god, I find quite fascinating, for example. I thought I'd just throw that out as an example of a myth/ metaphor that have some validity. Didn't I already answer this question? "Do you wonder why we CAN wonder about who we are, and a greater sense of purpose for the Universe?"
We begin, continued & still CAN, wonder about who we are, because of our advanced brain development.
When we could think in terms of the present, remember our past & then we could project what the future might be according to those past experiences. "One of the factors that happened when a part of our brain development came to the point we begin to be able to use it we begin able to think in the present. We also could remember what happened in our past. Using those two abilities, people begin to extrapolate a possible happening in our future."
No, however it may "strike you" , you are wrong. I certainly do accept NOT knowing. That is why I don't need to create or believe in anyone's elses creation myth!
You say that: there might be a reason or might not... but tell me , When a plane crashes killing all those on board, all those different people, are all those individual deaths random or reason?
When a certain part of a country is bombed, are all those individual deaths random or reason?
Metaphors & myths are only better than others in the eyes of the beholder! ( and of course in the eyes of their creator!)
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Post by What Hat on Oct 8, 2014 21:56:37 GMT -5
Do you wonder why we CAN wonder about who we are, and a greater sense of purpose for the Universe? When you say "there simply wasn't any reason", it strikes me that you also can not accept NOT knowing. Because in truth you don't know whether the events of our lives are random or not. The least you could do is say, there might be a reason or might not; we really don't know. It sounds like your saying "there is NO reason" and that's all there is to it. If metaphors were purely an invention then there would be no way of saying one metaphor is better than another. Marvel Comics is as good as the Bible, by that line of thinking. (Although I sometimes think that some views based on the Bible are not much better than a Marvel comic.) We had a look at native spirituality recently, reading some tales from the lore of indigenous natives. I think there is something to it; the concept of a 'trickster' god, I find quite fascinating, for example. I thought I'd just throw that out as an example of a myth/ metaphor that have some validity. You're talking about Paganism, you realize? I'm not sure that is correct. Certainly in the 'wiki' article on paganism, native North American spirituality does not come up.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 8, 2014 22:01:17 GMT -5
Do you wonder why we CAN wonder about who we are, and a greater sense of purpose for the Universe? When you say "there simply wasn't any reason", it strikes me that you also can not accept NOT knowing. Because in truth you don't know whether the events of our lives are random or not. The least you could do is say, there might be a reason or might not; we really don't know. It sounds like your saying "there is NO reason" and that's all there is to it. If metaphors were purely an invention then there would be no way of saying one metaphor is better than another. Marvel Comics is as good as the Bible, by that line of thinking. (Although I sometimes think that some views based on the Bible are not much better than a Marvel comic.) We had a look at native spirituality recently, reading some tales from the lore of indigenous natives. I think there is something to it; the concept of a 'trickster' god, I find quite fascinating, for example. I thought I'd just throw that out as an example of a myth/ metaphor that have some validity. Didn't I already answer this question? "Do you wonder why we CAN wonder about who we are, and a greater sense of purpose for the Universe?"
We begin, continued & still CAN, wonder about who we are, because of our advanced brain development.
When we could think in terms of the present, remember our past & then we could project what the future might be according to those past experiences. "One of the factors that happened when a part of our brain development came to the point we begin to be able to use it we begin able to think in the present. We also could remember what happened in our past. Using those two abilities, people begin to extrapolate a possible happening in our future."
No, however it may "strike you" , you are wrong. I certainly do accept NOT knowing. That is why I don't need to create or believe in anyone's elses creation myth!
You say that: there might be a reason or might not... but tell me , When a plane crashes killing all those on board, all those different people, are all those individual deaths random or reason?
When a certain part of a country is bombed, are all those individual deaths random or reason?
Metaphors & myths are only better than others in the eyes of the beholder! ( and of course in the eyes of their creator!)
Hang on. If you say you don't know, you can only be an agnostic. Both atheists and deists of various stripes claim to "know". In the former case they "know" there is no God, and in the latter, they "know" there is one. Deaths of the kind you mention are random, IMO. The Bible states that "time and chance" affect the lives of all of us. So I'm wondering if you wonder why one species of the animal world has a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence, to ask why?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 8, 2014 22:08:02 GMT -5
You're talking about Paganism, you realize? I'm not sure that is correct. Certainly in the 'wiki' article on paganism, native North American spirituality does not come up. Wouldn't this cover native North American?
"Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world.
In a wider sense, paganism has also been understood to include any non-Abrahamic, folk, or ethnic religion. "
from wiki.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 8, 2014 22:16:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure that is correct. Certainly in the 'wiki' article on paganism, native North American spirituality does not come up. Wouldn't this cover native North American?
"Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world.
In a wider sense, paganism has also been understood to include any non-Abrahamic, folk, or ethnic religion. "
from wiki.
"Primarily those of cultures known to the classical world" rules it out, I think. The word 'indigenous' which you underlined is just too broad to focus on anything in particular; that would include cultures in every single part of the world, many of them with nothing to do with each other. The 'wider sense' mentioned would be in the sense of a label, like the word 'heathen'.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 8, 2014 22:46:48 GMT -5
Didn't I already answer this question? "Do you wonder why we CAN wonder about who we are, and a greater sense of purpose for the Universe?"
We begin, continued & still CAN, wonder about who we are, because of our advanced brain development.
When we could think in terms of the present, remember our past & then we could project what the future might be according to those past experiences. "One of the factors that happened when a part of our brain development came to the point we begin to be able to use it we begin able to think in the present. We also could remember what happened in our past. Using those two abilities, people begin to extrapolate a possible happening in our future."
No, however it may "strike you" , you are wrong. I certainly do accept NOT knowing. That is why I don't need to create or believe in anyone's elses creation myth!
You say that: there might be a reason or might not... but tell me , When a plane crashes killing all those on board, all those different people, are all those individual deaths random or reason?
When a certain part of a country is bombed, are all those individual deaths random or reason?
Metaphors & myths are only better than others in the eyes of the beholder! ( and of course in the eyes of their creator!)
Hang on. If you say you don't know, you can only be an agnostic. Both atheists and deists of various stripes claim to "know". In the former case they "know" there is no God, and in the latter, they "know" there is one. Deaths of the kind you mention are random, IMO. The Bible states that "time and chance" affect the lives of all of us. So I'm wondering if you wonder why one species of the animal world has a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence, to ask why? I don't think you understand what I am saying.
When I say that , "I certainly do accept NOT knowing," I simply mean that I don't need to know all the answers to questions. I don't need to create or believe any "myth" that throws a GOD into the gap where I haven't any scientific knowledge as yet.
I am perfectly comfortable not knowing everything. That has nothing to do with being agnostic.
I am an atheist when it comes to any belief in a supernatural being called GOD.
Religions throw GODS into the gap & create something because some people apparently aren't comfortable not knowing & just have to know. Even when the reason is a totally unrealistic concoction that is a supernatural, paranormal "myth." (like Christianity which believes in the resurrection of a dead body & that body ascending into the sky)
NO, I don't need to wonder why we as one species of the animal world have a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence.
There is a lot of knowledge of the evolution of the human brain already known & we are quickly learning more every day.
Charley Rose had an excellent series on our understanding more about the the brain.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 8, 2014 22:56:38 GMT -5
You're talking about Paganism, you realize? I'm not sure that is correct. Certainly in the 'wiki' article on paganism, native North American spirituality does not come up. You wrote: We had a look at native spirituality recently, reading some tales from the lore of indigenous natives. I think there is something to it; the concept of a 'trickster' god, I find quite fascinating, for example. I thought I'd just throw that out as an example of a myth/ metaphor that have some validity. A trickster god is pure Paganism, wherever you find it. How could one reconcile this concept with Christian doctrine?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 8, 2014 23:02:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure that is correct. Certainly in the 'wiki' article on paganism, native North American spirituality does not come up. Wouldn't this cover native North American?
"Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world.
In a wider sense, paganism has also been understood to include any non-Abrahamic, folk, or ethnic religion. "
from wiki.
Paganism is not a European religion - it's a European word for indigenous religions. And indigenous religions in all parts of the world are remarkably similar. As a matter of fact, I dare estimate that there is more homogeneity among Pagan religions than there is among Christian denominations -- based on my studies.
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Post by mdm on Oct 9, 2014 13:22:59 GMT -5
You don't 'believe' in myths, per se, and they don't provide explanations. I like Plato's description of our lives being lived as if we were shackled in a cave. Behind us is a light and our chains prevent us from looking at and analyzing it. But on the wall, we can see the shadows made as the light plays against the figures of our lives. It's not unlike the Bible verse "Now we see through a glass darkly ... " explaining the limits of our understanding. A metaphor has two parts, a tenor and a vehicle. For example, we might say, "life is a journey". The vehicle of the metaphor is "journey" and the tenor is "life". The reason it's called a vehicle, is because one idea is being driven or carried across to another in order to say something about the tenor. We take a known thing, "a journey", and throw some light on an unknown thing, "life". This is how metaphor works in the religious realm. In one common metaphor, we take a known thing, say, "marriage" and use it to shed light on an unknown thing, "the union of Christ and his church". People often think of metaphor (and myth) as strictly a product of the imagination. But I believe that when they work, they're explaining something that is very real, but also .. unknowable in its literal sense. Think of metaphor as the shadow on the cave wall; it doesn't exist unless the light also exists. Of course, you can reject the metaphor, which means rejecting what it stands for. But the Bible and Christian experience are entirely made out of metaphors and these can have a very rich meaning for Christian believers. Regarding Plato's shadows and chains - just yesterday for the first time I heard of Edwin Abbot's Flatland, a social satire. In Flatland, which is a two-dimensional world, if a sphere touches it, it will be perceived as a dot. As the sphere passes through the two-dimensional world, it is perceived as a circle. The 3 dimensions of a sphere cannot be perceived and the true meaning of what is perceived cannot be understood by an entity with only 2 dimensions living in a 2-dimensional world, unless the entity is willing to consider that there can be more dimensions and is willing to explore and learn about them. Even then, an entity inhabiting a 2-D world can only have a limited understanding of the 3-D world. I have experienced some things that cannot be explained with my 'flatland' rules, and what I did perceive is probably only a dimension that is observable in my 'flat' state. There was probably much more to it that I wasn't able to perceive. This morning, driving my daughter to school, I noticed that the Moon was brighter on the way back than driving away from home. The sunlight was stronger, and more light was reflecting against the Moon, which made the Moon look brighter. It made me think of light in space - unless you are looking directly at the source, you can't see the light except as it reflects against another object. Isn't it so with God's light - it is only visible in this world as it is reflected in someone? There is nature too, it speaks of God, but nothing speaks as strongly as a person reflecting God's love.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 9, 2014 14:11:55 GMT -5
You don't 'believe' in myths, per se, and they don't provide explanations. I like Plato's description of our lives being lived as if we were shackled in a cave. Behind us is a light and our chains prevent us from looking at and analyzing it. But on the wall, we can see the shadows made as the light plays against the figures of our lives. It's not unlike the Bible verse "Now we see through a glass darkly ... " explaining the limits of our understanding. A metaphor has two parts, a tenor and a vehicle. For example, we might say, "life is a journey". The vehicle of the metaphor is "journey" and the tenor is "life". The reason it's called a vehicle, is because one idea is being driven or carried across to another in order to say something about the tenor. We take a known thing, "a journey", and throw some light on an unknown thing, "life". This is how metaphor works in the religious realm. In one common metaphor, we take a known thing, say, "marriage" and use it to shed light on an unknown thing, "the union of Christ and his church". People often think of metaphor (and myth) as strictly a product of the imagination. But I believe that when they work, they're explaining something that is very real, but also .. unknowable in its literal sense. Think of metaphor as the shadow on the cave wall; it doesn't exist unless the light also exists. Of course, you can reject the metaphor, which means rejecting what it stands for. But the Bible and Christian experience are entirely made out of metaphors and these can have a very rich meaning for Christian believers. Regarding Plato's shadows and chains - just yesterday for the first time I heard of Edwin Abbot's Flatland, a social satire. In Flatland, which is a two-dimensional world, if a sphere touches it, it will be perceived as a dot. As the sphere passes through the two-dimensional world, it is perceived as a circle. The 3 dimensions of a sphere cannot be perceived and the true meaning of what is perceived cannot be understood by an entity with only 2 dimensions living in a 2-dimensional world, unless the entity is willing to consider that there can be more dimensions and is willing to explore and learn about them. Even then, an entity inhabiting a 2-D world can only have a limited understanding of the 3-D world. I have experienced some things that cannot be explained with my 'flatland' rules, and what I did perceive is probably only a dimension that is observable in my 'flat' state. There was probably much more to it that I wasn't able to perceive. This morning, driving my daughter to school, I noticed that the Moon was brighter on the way back than driving away from home. The sunlight was stronger, and more light was reflecting against the Moon, which made the Moon look brighter. It made me think of light in space - unless you are looking directly at the source, you can't see the light except as it reflects against another object. Isn't it so with God's light - it is only visible in this world as it is reflected in someone? There is nature too, it speaks of God, but nothing speaks as strongly as a person reflecting God's love. Lovely metaphor? Yes. However, what does it really say? What really is "God's light?" What exactly the meaning of "Love?" How does "Love" portray itself in a person's actions that "reflect" God's love?
What about "God's" characteristics other than "Love?" Many people also "reflect " those characteristics as well & state they are ok because God "hates" certain things.
That metaphor reflects much of what I said:
People throw GODS into the gap, even when the reason is a totally unrealistic concoction that is a supernatural, paranormal "myth."
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Post by faune on Oct 9, 2014 14:38:08 GMT -5
Alan, you do seem to just enjoy the study of "myths." So did I.
I really enjoyed Joseph Campbell's book The Power of Myth. (It's probably still around here somewhere)
It was very interesting to see how such myths developed & interlaced with each other .
Bullfinch's The Golden Bough is another book I have enjoyed.
To me, more interesting than anything, is the question of why people seem to have such a need to create those "myths."
Once I worked through that question, it gave me one of the facets I needed for the grounding of my conclusions about the psychological needs of why people believe in myths, -myself included. You don't 'believe' in myths, per se, and they don't provide explanations. I like Plato's description of our lives being lived as if we were shackled in a cave. Behind us is a light and our chains prevent us from looking at and analyzing it. But on the wall, we can see the shadows made as the light plays against the figures of our lives. It's not unlike the Bible verse "Now we see through a glass darkly ... " explaining the limits of our understanding. A metaphor has two parts, a tenor and a vehicle. For example, we might say, "life is a journey". The vehicle of the metaphor is "journey" and the tenor is "life". The reason it's called a vehicle, is because one idea is being driven or carried across to another in order to say something about the tenor. We take a known thing, "a journey", and throw some light on an unknown thing, "life". This is how metaphor works in the religious realm. In one common metaphor, we take a known thing, say, "marriage" and use it to shed light on an unknown thing, "the union of Christ and his church". People often think of metaphor (and myth) as strictly a product of the imagination. But I believe that when they work, they're explaining something that is very real, but also .. unknowable in its literal sense. Think of metaphor as the shadow on the cave wall; it doesn't exist unless the light also exists. Of course, you can reject the metaphor, which means rejecting what it stands for. But the Bible and Christian experience are entirely made out of metaphors and these can have a very rich meaning for Christian believers. What Hat ~ I definitely agree with you logical synopsis above regarding the use of metaphors within the Bible. Plato's Cave allegory is a good example of this deeper meaning to stories, too, much like Jesus' parables within the gospel accounts.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVN5PRpM_1Y Plato's Cave Allegory
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 15:50:10 GMT -5
Hang on. If you say you don't know, you can only be an agnostic. Both atheists and deists of various stripes claim to "know". In the former case they "know" there is no God, and in the latter, they "know" there is one. Deaths of the kind you mention are random, IMO. The Bible states that "time and chance" affect the lives of all of us. So I'm wondering if you wonder why one species of the animal world has a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence, to ask why? I don't think you understand what I am saying.
When I say that , "I certainly do accept NOT knowing," I simply mean that I don't need to know all the answers to questions. I don't need to create or believe any "myth" that throws a GOD into the gap where I haven't any scientific knowledge as yet.
I am perfectly comfortable not knowing everything. That has nothing to do with being agnostic.
I am an atheist when it comes to any belief in a supernatural being called GOD.
Religions throw GODS into the gap & create something because some people apparently aren't comfortable not knowing & just have to know. Even when the reason is a totally unrealistic concoction that is a supernatural, paranormal "myth." (like Christianity which believes in the resurrection of a dead body & that body ascending into the sky)
NO, I don't need to wonder why we as one species of the animal world have a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence.
There is a lot of knowledge of the evolution of the human brain already known & we are quickly learning more every day.
Charley Rose had an excellent series on our understanding more about the the brain.
Actually I don't think you understand what you are saying. Atheism does involve an intuitive leap, at least, until someone comes back from the after-life and tells us there isn't one.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 16:01:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure that is correct. Certainly in the 'wiki' article on paganism, native North American spirituality does not come up. You wrote: We had a look at native spirituality recently, reading some tales from the lore of indigenous natives. I think there is something to it; the concept of a 'trickster' god, I find quite fascinating, for example. I thought I'd just throw that out as an example of a myth/ metaphor that have some validity. A trickster god is pure Paganism, wherever you find it. How could one reconcile this concept with Christian doctrine? I must admit that I don't know anything about Paganism. Based on your description it sounds like a catch-all. I'm not really in favour of lumping disparate, unrelated religions together, at least not as a common religion. I suppose Japanese Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend would all be pagan religions or forms of Paganism, even though they have no common history. To me, there is a God, I have my ideas about Him, and various religions are just a reaching for the same thing. What I know about native spirituality appealed to me as a youngster, and a revisit as an adult has also been interesting. We attended a multi-faith seminar a couple of years ago (sponsored by the Ahmadiyya Muslim) with the topic, "Who is God?", and several faiths represented. The most compelling to me was the speaker on native spirituality because of the simplicity of his message. He could have almost been a worker, actually.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 16:08:54 GMT -5
You don't 'believe' in myths, per se, and they don't provide explanations. I like Plato's description of our lives being lived as if we were shackled in a cave. Behind us is a light and our chains prevent us from looking at and analyzing it. But on the wall, we can see the shadows made as the light plays against the figures of our lives. It's not unlike the Bible verse "Now we see through a glass darkly ... " explaining the limits of our understanding. A metaphor has two parts, a tenor and a vehicle. For example, we might say, "life is a journey". The vehicle of the metaphor is "journey" and the tenor is "life". The reason it's called a vehicle, is because one idea is being driven or carried across to another in order to say something about the tenor. We take a known thing, "a journey", and throw some light on an unknown thing, "life". This is how metaphor works in the religious realm. In one common metaphor, we take a known thing, say, "marriage" and use it to shed light on an unknown thing, "the union of Christ and his church". People often think of metaphor (and myth) as strictly a product of the imagination. But I believe that when they work, they're explaining something that is very real, but also .. unknowable in its literal sense. Think of metaphor as the shadow on the cave wall; it doesn't exist unless the light also exists. Of course, you can reject the metaphor, which means rejecting what it stands for. But the Bible and Christian experience are entirely made out of metaphors and these can have a very rich meaning for Christian believers. What Hat ~ I definitely agree with you logical synopsis above regarding the use of metaphors within the Bible. Plato's Cave allegory is a good example of this deeper meaning to stories, too, much like Jesus' parables within the gospel accounts.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVN5PRpM_1Y Plato's Cave Allegory
Good presentation of the idea, but do you agree that the music is just a little bit over the top? Why do I have the feeling this was produced in the USA? I have a DVD collection on the Universe which is full of statements like, "If you landed on the surface of Mercury you would be burned to a crisp in 2 seconds". Much preferred is the British approach which is generally guaranteed to have you yawning within 5 minutes.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 16:13:43 GMT -5
Wouldn't this cover native North American?
"Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world.
In a wider sense, paganism has also been understood to include any non-Abrahamic, folk, or ethnic religion. "
from wiki.
Paganism is not a European religion - it's a European word for indigenous religions. And indigenous religions in all parts of the world are remarkably similar. As a matter of fact, I dare estimate that there is more homogeneity among Pagan religions than there is among Christian denominations -- based on my studies. They're only similar because your viewpoint is Western. If your background (as opposed to belief) is monotheistic than all polytheistic religions are similar. The most similar religions I can think of are Islam and Christianity, actually. For reference - www.discoveringislam.org/islam_vs_christianity.htm
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 16:22:00 GMT -5
You don't 'believe' in myths, per se, and they don't provide explanations. I like Plato's description of our lives being lived as if we were shackled in a cave. Behind us is a light and our chains prevent us from looking at and analyzing it. But on the wall, we can see the shadows made as the light plays against the figures of our lives. It's not unlike the Bible verse "Now we see through a glass darkly ... " explaining the limits of our understanding. A metaphor has two parts, a tenor and a vehicle. For example, we might say, "life is a journey". The vehicle of the metaphor is "journey" and the tenor is "life". The reason it's called a vehicle, is because one idea is being driven or carried across to another in order to say something about the tenor. We take a known thing, "a journey", and throw some light on an unknown thing, "life". This is how metaphor works in the religious realm. In one common metaphor, we take a known thing, say, "marriage" and use it to shed light on an unknown thing, "the union of Christ and his church". People often think of metaphor (and myth) as strictly a product of the imagination. But I believe that when they work, they're explaining something that is very real, but also .. unknowable in its literal sense. Think of metaphor as the shadow on the cave wall; it doesn't exist unless the light also exists. Of course, you can reject the metaphor, which means rejecting what it stands for. But the Bible and Christian experience are entirely made out of metaphors and these can have a very rich meaning for Christian believers. Regarding Plato's shadows and chains - just yesterday for the first time I heard of Edwin Abbot's Flatland, a social satire. In Flatland, which is a two-dimensional world, if a sphere touches it, it will be perceived as a dot. As the sphere passes through the two-dimensional world, it is perceived as a circle. The 3 dimensions of a sphere cannot be perceived and the true meaning of what is perceived cannot be understood by an entity with only 2 dimensions living in a 2-dimensional world, unless the entity is willing to consider that there can be more dimensions and is willing to explore and learn about them. Even then, an entity inhabiting a 2-D world can only have a limited understanding of the 3-D world. I have experienced some things that cannot be explained with my 'flatland' rules, and what I did perceive is probably only a dimension that is observable in my 'flat' state. There was probably much more to it that I wasn't able to perceive. This morning, driving my daughter to school, I noticed that the Moon was brighter on the way back than driving away from home. The sunlight was stronger, and more light was reflecting against the Moon, which made the Moon look brighter. It made me think of light in space - unless you are looking directly at the source, you can't see the light except as it reflects against another object. Isn't it so with God's light - it is only visible in this world as it is reflected in someone? There is nature too, it speaks of God, but nothing speaks as strongly as a person reflecting God's love. We can't visualize or truly understand four or more dimensions, but we can work with worlds of 4 or more dimensions mathematically. It's now emerging that physical phenomena in our three dimensional world, especially looking at the behaviour of quanta, are more easily explained as our perceptions in 3 dimensions of a universe with 11 dimensions.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 9, 2014 16:51:17 GMT -5
You wrote: We had a look at native spirituality recently, reading some tales from the lore of indigenous natives. I think there is something to it; the concept of a 'trickster' god, I find quite fascinating, for example. I thought I'd just throw that out as an example of a myth/ metaphor that have some validity. A trickster god is pure Paganism, wherever you find it. How could one reconcile this concept with Christian doctrine? I must admit that I don't know anything about Paganism. Based on your description it sounds like a catch-all. I'm not really in favour of lumping disparate, unrelated religions together, at least not as a common religion. I suppose Japanese Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend would all be pagan religions or forms of Paganism, even though they have no common history. To me, there is a God, I have my ideas about Him, and various religions are just a reaching for the same thing. What I know about native spirituality appealed to me as a youngster, and a revisit as an adult has also been interesting. We attended a multi-faith seminar a couple of years ago (sponsored by the Ahmadiyya Muslim) with the topic, "Who is God?", and several faiths represented. The most compelling to me was the speaker on native spirituality because of the simplicity of his message. He could have almost been a worker, actually. I don't know how you got the impression that I described Paganism as a catch-all. What I said was that Paganism is undoubtedly more homogenious world wide than Christianity is. I am guessing that you are not familiar enough with Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend to know how similar they are. Among Western Christians the only thing of concern or interest to them is anything unusual or seemingly bizarre rather than the actual belief processes behind all the outward ritual appearance. And like Paganism in Western Europe, the evil of anything Pagan is more important to know about than the good, simply because Christianity regards Paganism to be in competition with it. I'm intrigued at your mention of Mi'kmaq legend -- I was raised in Mi'kmaq country.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 9, 2014 17:18:26 GMT -5
Paganism is not a European religion - it's a European word for indigenous religions. And indigenous religions in all parts of the world are remarkably similar. As a matter of fact, I dare estimate that there is more homogeneity among Pagan religions than there is among Christian denominations -- based on my studies. They're only similar because your viewpoint is Western. If your background (as opposed to belief) is monotheistic than all polytheistic religions are similar. The most similar religions I can think of are Islam and Christianity, actually. For reference - www.discoveringislam.org/islam_vs_christianity.htmFWIW I am not a theist of any sort. And I do agree with you that Islam and Christianity are very similar -- despite vehement protest by many Christians to the contrary. But the most similar pair of the three Abrahamic religions is Judaism and Islam. They at least subscribe to the same concept of the divine. Well, as for my viewpoint of Paganism, I think I am quite familiar with Paganism. I most certainly do not have a Western/Christian view of Paganism. It's almost a decade now since I have had any association with anything non-Pagan, and have had a lot of association with three strains of Paganism celebrated locally, East European, West European, and North American. As well as that I have a few university courses in Paganism, and that's where I discovered that Oriental and African Paganism, when you investigate their theological philosophies, are far less contentious of each other than many Christian denominations are of each other. What I have learned about Paganism is that virtually everything that is taught and written about them has nothing at all to do with their core beliefs. People rend to concentrate on everything that is different about them, but what they never get to is the thought processes and perceptions of the divine. People treat Paganism as primitive and/or demonic ideologies, but in their core moral concepts I have found them more advanced and human than anything Abrahamic. We can criticize Pagans for what we would refer to as immorality, and they can be as guilty of immorality as anyone can -- but their moral guidance code is flawless in my estimation.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 17:35:47 GMT -5
So what's the word on prayer with reference to Lee Harmon's book? Is it something like 'prayer doesn't change God's mind' as some are disposed to think? Rather prayer is willing and wanting according to his will? IMO the best form of prayer is "doing something about it." Here is the quote from Lee's book.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 17:54:34 GMT -5
I must admit that I don't know anything about Paganism. Based on your description it sounds like a catch-all. I'm not really in favour of lumping disparate, unrelated religions together, at least not as a common religion. I suppose Japanese Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend would all be pagan religions or forms of Paganism, even though they have no common history. To me, there is a God, I have my ideas about Him, and various religions are just a reaching for the same thing. What I know about native spirituality appealed to me as a youngster, and a revisit as an adult has also been interesting. We attended a multi-faith seminar a couple of years ago (sponsored by the Ahmadiyya Muslim) with the topic, "Who is God?", and several faiths represented. The most compelling to me was the speaker on native spirituality because of the simplicity of his message. He could have almost been a worker, actually. I don't know how you got the impression that I described Paganism as a catch-all. What I said was that Paganism is undoubtedly more homogenious world wide than Christianity is. I am guessing that you are not familiar enough with Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend to know how similar they are. Among Western Christians the only thing of concern or interest to them is anything unusual or seemingly bizarre rather than the actual belief processes behind all the outward ritual appearance. And like Paganism in Western Europe, the evil of anything Pagan is more important to know about than the good, simply because Christianity regards Paganism to be in competition with it. I'm intrigued at your mention of Mi'kmaq legend -- I was raised in Mi'kmaq country. Okay, I'll concede the point, although I know at least a little about each of my three examples, but sometimes in oblique ways. For example, the movies of Miyazaki, all of which I've seen multiple times, often contain references to a Japanese spirit world. But certainly I've not made any kind of study of the subject. You had me wondering about the animated shorts from the NFB that captivated me as a child, so I searched a bit - www.nfb.ca/film/summer_legendWow, this really stands up; quite well done, I think.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 9, 2014 18:44:11 GMT -5
I don't know how you got the impression that I described Paganism as a catch-all. What I said was that Paganism is undoubtedly more homogenious world wide than Christianity is. I am guessing that you are not familiar enough with Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend to know how similar they are. Among Western Christians the only thing of concern or interest to them is anything unusual or seemingly bizarre rather than the actual belief processes behind all the outward ritual appearance. And like Paganism in Western Europe, the evil of anything Pagan is more important to know about than the good, simply because Christianity regards Paganism to be in competition with it. I'm intrigued at your mention of Mi'kmaq legend -- I was raised in Mi'kmaq country. Okay, I'll concede the point, although I know at least a little about each of my three examples, but sometimes in oblique ways. For example, the movies of Miyazaki, all of which I've seen multiple times, often contain references to a Japanese spirit world. But certainly I've not made any kind of study of the subject. You had me wondering about the animated shorts from the NFB that captivated me as a child, so I searched a bit - www.nfb.ca/film/summer_legendWow, this really stands up; quite well done, I think. Thank you so much. This was such a nostalgic story to me. As a teenager I hiked around the peak where Glooscap is supposed to have resided. A very beautiful place. We came three days short of adopting a little Mi'kmaq boy years ago, but at the last minute his availability for adoption was canceled. I always wished I had more time to learn the language. The legends of a society are really great and should be preserved for their cultural value. But they rarely define the core dogmas of religions. The problem with some religions, like Judaism and Paganism both, is that they were virtually lacking in dogma, so unless one studies them from the inside there isn't any easy way to determine what their concept of the cosmos is.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 9, 2014 19:03:00 GMT -5
I don't know how you got the impression that I described Paganism as a catch-all. What I said was that Paganism is undoubtedly more homogenious world wide than Christianity is. I am guessing that you are not familiar enough with Shinto, Haitian Vodou and Mi'kmaq legend to know how similar they are. Among Western Christians the only thing of concern or interest to them is anything unusual or seemingly bizarre rather than the actual belief processes behind all the outward ritual appearance. And like Paganism in Western Europe, the evil of anything Pagan is more important to know about than the good, simply because Christianity regards Paganism to be in competition with it. I'm intrigued at your mention of Mi'kmaq legend -- I was raised in Mi'kmaq country. Okay, I'll concede the point, although I know at least a little about each of my three examples, but sometimes in oblique ways. For example, the movies of Miyazaki, all of which I've seen multiple times, often contain references to a Japanese spirit world. But certainly I've not made any kind of study of the subject. You had me wondering about the animated shorts from the NFB that captivated me as a child, so I searched a bit - www.nfb.ca/film/summer_legendWow, this really stands up; quite well done, I think. Lovely story, somewhat like Persephone in Greek mythology.
Anywhere the seasons change, you will find a similar myths.
There is nothing wrong with myths, -as long as you realize that is what they are and don't take them as being absolute truth.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 9, 2014 20:02:00 GMT -5
I don't think you understand what I am saying.
When I say that , "I certainly do accept NOT knowing," I simply mean that I don't need to know all the answers to questions. I don't need to create or believe any "myth" that throws a GOD into the gap where I haven't any scientific knowledge as yet.
I am perfectly comfortable not knowing everything. That has nothing to do with being agnostic.
I am an atheist when it comes to any belief in a supernatural being called GOD.
Religions throw GODS into the gap & create something because some people apparently aren't comfortable not knowing & just have to know. Even when the reason is a totally unrealistic concoction that is a supernatural, paranormal "myth." (like Christianity which believes in the resurrection of a dead body & that body ascending into the sky)
NO, I don't need to wonder why we as one species of the animal world have a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence.
There is a lot of knowledge of the evolution of the human brain already known & we are quickly learning more every day.
Charley Rose had an excellent series on our understanding more about the the brain.
Actually I don't think you understand what you are saying. Atheism does involve an intuitive leap, at least, until someone comes back from the after-life and tells us there isn't one. Sorry that you can't follow my reasoning!
I can try another way. You may be able to follow that, maybe not.
Lets say that we create myths because we as human beings like order & dislike chaos.
Therefore, we create myths to try to make order out of chaos.
Someone else I know explains the reason we create myths is because : We humans are "intentional" beings, that is when we do something it is because we "intended " to do it, done in a way that is planned or intended or designed.
Therefore, we believe that whatever happens in the world or universe or to us is because SOMETHING "intended" for it to happen by a plan or design. We don't want to believe that things just happen randomly, but rather because there is "intention" behind it.
We create myths & religions because they make us more comfortable .Religions throw GODS into the gap & create something because some people apparently aren't comfortable not knowing & just have to know. Even when the reason is a totally unrealistic concoction that is a supernatural, paranormal "myth." (like Christianity which believes in the resurrection of a dead body & that body ascending into the sky)
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Post by rational on Oct 9, 2014 20:09:47 GMT -5
Regarding Plato's shadows and chains - just yesterday for the first time I heard of Edwin Abbot's Flatland, a social satire. In Flatland, which is a two-dimensional world, if a sphere touches it, it will be perceived as a dot. As the sphere passes through the two-dimensional world, it is perceived as a circle. The 3 dimensions of a sphere cannot be perceived and the true meaning of what is perceived cannot be understood by an entity with only 2 dimensions living in a 2-dimensional world, unless the entity is willing to consider that there can be more dimensions and is willing to explore and learn about them. Even then, an entity inhabiting a 2-D world can only have a limited understanding of the 3-D world. I have experienced some things that cannot be explained with my 'flatland' rules, and what I did perceive is probably only a dimension that is observable in my 'flat' state. There was probably much more to it that I wasn't able to perceive. Do you consider you live in a 3-d or a 4-d world? Since both the moon and the sun were/are in space the amount of sun's radiation hitting the moon is fairly constant. The light reflected from the moon varies only slightly over the course of a day. Discounting sunspots, the sun's radiation is quite constant. Considering light you have to take into account both luminous and illuminated objects. And then there is the blue light from the sky. I can see the parallels you are attempting to draw but they ave based on faulty reasoning.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 9, 2014 20:10:27 GMT -5
I don't think you understand what I am saying.
When I say that , "I certainly do accept NOT knowing," I simply mean that I don't need to know all the answers to questions. I don't need to create or believe any "myth" that throws a GOD into the gap where I haven't any scientific knowledge as yet.
I am perfectly comfortable not knowing everything. That has nothing to do with being agnostic.
I am an atheist when it comes to any belief in a supernatural being called GOD.
Religions throw GODS into the gap & create something because some people apparently aren't comfortable not knowing & just have to know. Even when the reason is a totally unrealistic concoction that is a supernatural, paranormal "myth." (like Christianity which believes in the resurrection of a dead body & that body ascending into the sky)
NO, I don't need to wonder why we as one species of the animal world have a brain that has advanced to the point of being able to question the purpose of its existence.
There is a lot of knowledge of the evolution of the human brain already known & we are quickly learning more every day.
Charley Rose had an excellent series on our understanding more about the the brain.
Actually I don't think you understand what you are saying. Atheism does involve an intuitive leap, at least, until someone comes back from the after-life and tells us there isn't one. Atheism does not need any kind of leap. We shouldn't even need a word for it because it just is. No god can be demonstrated as existing, so atheism is just the natural state of being.
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Post by rational on Oct 9, 2014 20:20:57 GMT -5
Atheism does involve an intuitive leap, at least, until someone comes back from the after-life and tells us there isn't one. :) Only if you think the belief in a paranormal being is innate.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 9, 2014 21:02:43 GMT -5
Actually I don't think you understand what you are saying. Atheism does involve an intuitive leap, at least, until someone comes back from the after-life and tells us there isn't one. Atheism does not need any kind of leap. We shouldn't even need a word for it because it just is. No god can be demonstrated as existing, so atheism is just the natural state of being.
I'm dubious that atheism is the natural state of being. If you say that atheism is simply not accepting any particular conception of God, then I agree; atheism is a natural state of being. If you say that atheism is the denial of any kind of First Cause whatsoever, then your atheism is a matter of belief. There's no way of proving that there is or isn't some kind of a First Cause, so it's not a "natural state of being".
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