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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 2:46:44 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, quote, "Bert! I asked you for proof that these things are actually happening NOW! You just keep repeating your ideas without any proof that those things are happening TODAY in our time!'
Define "our time" ?? My definition is those processes which we see today, but might not have started, nor finished, in "our time." Concerning the return of the Jews to Israel - hard to pin down as it has been an ongoing process since Napoleon's time. Key event - 1967 connects nicely with what Jesus said about the Gentiles time being fulfilled as this was the height of the cultural and moral ferment in Western society.
Fall of the churches - slow decline to us as individuals, but FAST by historic standards. The common saying of America's current babies being born into a "post religious" America is close to the truth. The graph of church decline took its steepest dive during and after the 1960's. But there's no specific points, only trends. These trends did not move from Christianity's first days till the 1800's, and only then an ever so gradual drift until WWI when the rot really set in. Most of the church's wealth, on a comparative scale, is long gone. Fewer people get married in churches. Many will go their entire lives having never set foot in one. Maybe one day people will think churches are just a style of apartment.
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 9:50:27 GMT -5
Nathan I've been thinking about the myth of God and Satan. First of all I thought about how God is omni-everything. Then I remembered that angels cannot defy God, it's not the way they are made apparently. So how could God trust his archangel Satan if he was all knowing and how could an angel defy God? Why would any angel even think they could take on an all powerful being, unless of course that being is all-anything? These are the flaws I see in the story.
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 11:40:36 GMT -5
Nathan I've been thinking about the myth of God and Satan. First of all I thought about how God is omni-everything. Then I remembered that angels cannot defy God, it's not the way they are made apparently. So how could God trust his archangel Satan if he was all knowing and how could an angel defy God? Why would any angel even think they could take on an all powerful being, unless of course that being is all-anything? These are the flaws I see in the story. Freewill... Satan thought/believed he could defy and win the war in heaven.... He was wrong! God, angels, Satan, the fallen angels, and human beings are NO myth! We humans exist today because God/Elohim have created us from the dust of the ground.Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan was pushed out of heaven. The Bible (The book of Revelation 12:7-9) John the apostle wrote: There WAS a War/Rebellion in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon/Serpent with his/Satan angels prevail NOT; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great Dragon was cast out, that OLD Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him And his tail drew the THIRD part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the EARTH. The book of Jude 1: 6 And the angels who kept NOT their position of authority, but LEFT their own habitation, God has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Satan Rebellion against God on the Second day of CreationGenesis 1:1-8 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the FIRST day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the SECOND day. From the Book of Enoch: Satan rebellion began on the SECOND Day of Creation. Enoch was Noah's great grandfather (Genesis 5:22-29). Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years, then One day, God took Enoch (to heaven without dying) because he served God faithfully. II book of Enoch Chapter 29, referring to the SECOND day of creation, before the creation of human beings, according to other versions of 2 Enoch, "one of the order of archangels"[22] or "one of the ranks of the archangels"[23] "conceived an impossible thought, to place his throne higher than the clouds above the earth, that he might become equal in rank to [the Lord's] power. And [the Lord] threw him out from the height with his angels, and he was flying in the air continuously above the bottomless." Although in this chapter the name "Satan" is mentioned only in a heading added in one manuscript,[18][24] this chapter too is often understood to refer to Satan and his angels, the Grigori.[18][23] The Jewish pseudepigraphon Second Book of Enoch (Slavonic Enoch) refers to the Grigori, who are the same as the Watchers of 1 Enoch.[2] The Slavic word Grigori used in the book is a transcription[12] of the Greek word ἐγρήγοροι egrḗgoroi, pronounced /ɛˈɡriɡɒri/ in post-classical times, meaning "wakeful".[13] The Hebrew equivalent is עירים, meaning "waking", "awake".[14] Genesis 1: 26-31 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Adam first wife LilithGenesis 1:27-88 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 1) God created Adam and Lilith from the dust of the earth.... Through Lilith's disobedience to God's commandment and Adam, so HE made Eve out of one Adam's ribs instead from the dust of the ground to be his second wife. www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Lilith+adam+first+wife&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=C7F341E8B8A347D7D5F9C7F341E8B8A347D7D5F9[/p] www.gotquestions.org/one-third-angels.html We are also told that one third of an “innumerable company of angels” (Hebrews 12:22) chose to rebel with him. John saw this great wonder in heaven, “…an enormous red dragon… His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth…the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him” (Revelation 12:3-9). ~~ Paul Harvey said "If I were the devil I would do these things " in 1996..... Many of Paul's suggestion.... Satan has used it. Over 4 Million Viewers! www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Az0okaHig&feature=youtu.be
[/quote] But Nathan, you're ignoring a huge part of what I just said. According to religion, angels don't have free will. So how could Satan have even thought of defying God?
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 12:01:03 GMT -5
[quote author=" snow" source="/post/600236/thread" timestamp="1407170436But Nathan, you're ignoring a huge part of what I just said. According to religion, angels don't have free will. So how could Satan have even thought of defying God? [/quote] Well, religion is incorrect... The angels, Satan, fallen angels had freewill because they had to pick which side they wanted to with God or Satan before the War of rebellion started in heaven. 1/3 of the angels had chosen to be with Satan. Humans have freewill too. In the garden of Eden Adam and Eve had freewill also.... They were deceived by Satan to listen to him instead of believing in God's words.
Satan wasn't too smart of an angel! just like the animals kingdom... A pack of wolves try to outsmart the humans. The wolves believe they are smarter than the humans.
Well if religion is wrong and angels do have free will, there is nothing more to say. Personally, I think the Satan myth is a sad one that leaves many people thinking that they have no need to try and improve because it is a hopeless cause. Then add in the 'once saved always saved' mentality, and you have a population that not only feels they can never improve or expect humans to act with more responsibility, but they also believe that once they give their lives to Jesus and accept him as Lord and God, then there is nothing further they have to do to get to heaven. Not much incentive to do anything about the current state of the life they are in and the world they live in.
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 13:40:40 GMT -5
I agree it's bad, but likely for different reasons, maybe not. But it is a belief many in the Christian world believe. That's one reason why I think making Jesus God took away from a very important message that would be there if Jesus was a man like us. It would give us hope that we could attain his level of enlightenment. But making him into a God takes away any hope of that possibility and makes us dependent of mercy only. I don't like that scenario at all and feel it's misguided and is a justification used when we fail to grow and mature into a responsible humanity.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 4, 2014 13:49:41 GMT -5
In most all religions there is the concept of a duality of 'good & evil'. The concept is made into tangible entities of 'gods & evil spirits' resulting in the legends & myths of that religion, whether it is Jewish, Christianity, Hindu or Native American.
If one wants to believe it is the Jewish-Christian one, -they are free to do so.
However, it would be a good idea if they studied the evolution of the world's religions to get a bigger picture from history of what & why people believe their particular religion.
The idea that "We (can't NEVER? double negative..) I suppose you meant we CAN NEVER or CAN'T EVER GET along" is what keeps people from trying to get along to together and a defeatist attitude as well as dangerous.
God vs. Satan or Good Vs. Evil began before creation of all humans or any religion claims to be the first to teach it. Human beings are like the goat, that like to be standing alone on a mountain peak. It's very dangerous nature! like Satan wants to be God by himself.... the top dog. If you believe, "Evil began before creation of all humans," who was committing the evil or perhaps a better question was how was that "evil" manifest?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 4, 2014 14:12:05 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, quote, " Bert! I asked you for proof that these things are actually happening NOW! You just keep repeating your ideas without any proof that those things are happening TODAY in our time!' Define "our time" ?? My definition is those processes which we see today, but might not have started, nor finished, in "our time." Concerning the return of the Jews to Israel - hard to pin down as it has been an ongoing process since Napoleon's time. Key event - 1967 connects nicely with what Jesus said about the Gentiles time being fulfilled as this was the height of the cultural and moral ferment in Western society. Fall of the churches - slow decline to us as individuals, but FAST by historic standards. The common saying of America's current babies being born into a "post religious" America is close to the truth. The graph of church decline took its steepest dive during and after the 1960's. But there's no specific points, only trends. These trends did not move from Christianity's first days till the 1800's, and only then an ever so gradual drift until WWI when the rot really set in. Most of the church's wealth, on a comparative scale, is long gone. Fewer people get married in churches. Many will go their entire lives having never set foot in one. Maybe one day people will think churches are just a style of apartment. As I said, bert, -you continue to give these assertions without any statistics & then extrapolate your own assertions into the future!
I there is such a decline in churches, how do you figure that in with these new huge mega-churches happening all over the US? The huge radio & television evangelist churches?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 4:51:45 GMT -5
Decline of religion figures are readily available online some figures are quite amazing: Russian church attendance is 2% Australian Catholic attendance has gone down one third since 1996 Baptisms in England had fallen more than 80% since I was born. Church attendance in USA halved in thirty years. It has been said that we could see a much steeper decline in the future, based upon the demographics of current church goers - that is to say, many are old people who's children and grandchildren are not attending church themselves.
Rev 18 " And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet... And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee ...And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee..."
And in the USA, 40% of weddings are now civil, and increasing rapidly.
Rev 18 "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee..."
The one critical date we can focus upon for the Jews is 1967 - right there in the midst of that downward spike in Western church attendance.
Luke 21:23b-24) "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 11:00:38 GMT -5
I agree it's bad, but likely for different reasons, maybe not. But it is a belief many in the Christian world believe. That's one reason why I think making Jesus God took away from a very important message that would be there if Jesus was a man like us. It would give us hope that we could attain his level of enlightenment. But making him into a God takes away any hope of that possibility and makes us dependent of mercy only. I don't like that scenario at all and feel it's misguided and is a justification used when we fail to grow and mature into a responsible humanity. Jesus was God the Son (so we know God/Elohim=Plural... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who became a man so he could relate to us in our own humans thinking, feelings, understanding our weaknesses, short comings so He can Pray, intercede to the Father for us because He was one of us! God/Jesus made himself two kingdoms lowers so He can Redeem us from a lost eternity without God's presence forever. Jesus is God and Man in the same body.
Jesus came to enlighten us and bring us to on the same level with God, like Himself and the Father. We become the children of God.
Really? You believe it's possible to become at the same level as God?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 5, 2014 13:03:07 GMT -5
Decline of religion figures are readily available online some figures are quite amazing: Russian church attendance is 2% Australian Catholic attendance has gone down one third since 1996 Baptisms in England had fallen more than 80% since I was born. Church attendance in USA halved in thirty years. It has been said that we could see a much steeper decline in the future, based upon the demographics of current church goers - that is to say, many are old people who's children and grandchildren are not attending church themselves. Rev 18 " And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet... And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee ...And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee..."And in the USA, 40% of weddings are now civil, and increasing rapidly. Rev 18 " And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee..." The one critical date we can focus upon for the Jews is 1967 - right there in the midst of that downward spike in Western church attendance. Luke 21:23b-24) "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”
Could you give me a link to stats for religion figures online?
Thanks!
There could be many causes other than "biblical prophecies" for religion decreasing.
1) Science is eliminating many of the "gods of the gaps." science helps people think in more rational way & thereby losing their beliefs in the supernatural and paranormal.
2) increased literacy whereby people can read the bible for themselves and understand that the bible isn't inerrant.
3) better economic conditions whereby people have a better life here on earth & don't need to wait for that better life hereafter.
4) more democratic governments allowing freedom of belief.
I'm sure there are a lot more that I can't think of.
PS: btw, any decrease in religion is large improvement over the history of the past. If is truely happening, I would say "Amen" to that.
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Post by uker260702 on Aug 5, 2014 13:24:59 GMT -5
Bert, how come its only the decline of religion in the West that`s important as "proof" of End Times. Do you have figures for the growth of say, Christianity, in Asia and Africa? Maybe in 200 years "Bert From Beijing" will be posting on the TMB, lamenting the falling church attendance in his country!
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 18:16:26 GMT -5
Really? You believe it's possible to become at the same level as God? Definitely! That was one of the reasons why Jesus came down from heaven to impart God's nature to those who believe in Him as the Lord God Savior. Just like you have the same DNA genes, human characteristics as your biological parents.... Whatever God Spirit is like the believers in Christ have the same in this life time and life beyond the grave.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Being sons of God isn't exactly like being God though is it? That would mean we have the same powers as he does. Is this what you mean?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 3:04:12 GMT -5
quote - "As I said, bert, -you continue to give these assertions without any statistics & then extrapolate your own assertions into the future! I there is such a decline in churches, how do you figure that in with these new huge mega-churches happening all over the US? The huge radio & television evangelist churches?" Two things need to be evaluated with these "mega churches." 1 - their content (ie watered down theology, materialism etc..) 2 - their (and ALL other churches) declining percentage of population.
Quote - "Could you give me a link to stats for religion figures online? Thanks! I never found a single one. A bit like getting gun deaths USA.
There could be many causes other than "biblical prophecies" for religion decreasing. True. The bible said God would take away the Jewish people and their nation. As it was, it wasn't God but the Romans. Same diff. The bible said the "east gate" of Jerusalem would be sealed because it is the gate the Messiah would pass through. The Ottoman Turks sealed the gate to prevent prophecies of the Jewish/Christian Messiah - and fulfilled the prophecy.
1) Science is eliminating many of the "gods of the gaps." science helps people think in more rational way & thereby losing their beliefs in the supernatural and paranormal. And rational/supernatural thinking is out - drug abuse, porn, child porn, adultery, violence, divorce, family breakdown etc on an unprecedented scale, are the new norm for a "rational" society.
2) increased literacy whereby people can read the bible for themselves and understand that the bible isn't inerrant. Only the Pope said it was inerrant. Even the Gospel authors made it clear it isn't inerrant.
3) better economic conditions whereby people have a better life here on earth & don't need to wait for that better life hereafter. That's the old "God of the deserts" theory, ie Judaism, Christianity and Islam came out of the "desert" because there was nothing else there. But that doesn't make sense - Egypt, Sumer, Israel etc were part of the "fertile crescent."
4) more democratic governments allowing freedom of belief. Doesn't make much difference to the broader concept of Christianity.
I'm sure there are a lot more that I can't think of.
PS: btw, any decrease in religion is large improvement over the history of the past. If is truely happening, I would say "Amen" to that. That's a different issue. In a way you help to confirm my assertion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 3:18:36 GMT -5
Bert, how come its only the decline of religion in the West that`s important as "proof" of End Times. Do you have figures for the growth of say, Christianity, in Asia and Africa? Maybe in 200 years "Bert From Beijing" will be posting on the TMB, lamenting the falling church attendance in his country! An excellent point. Rev 12:12 "The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East." I think there is another reference to this but forgot where. Somehow the fall of Christianity doesn't effect the "east."
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 9:47:57 GMT -5
Being sons of God isn't exactly like being God though is it? That would mean we have the same powers as he does. Is this what you mean? Yes, We have or inherit God's nature in this life and MORE to come after death....
God made humans in His image.... After we are born again we receive God's Nature and Spirit. He lives in us. Our bodies are God's temples.That sounds amazingly like the New Age belief that we are all individuated divine sparks, all connected and Gods in our own right.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 16:34:41 GMT -5
That sounds amazingly like the New Age belief that we are all individuated divine sparks, all connected and Gods in our own right. This has been God's will and plan before the foundation of the world... Human beings will become like God Himself through Jesus' death on the Calvary's Cross.
I Peter 2:18-23
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Well there you go, I never equated Christian thought with the belief that they would become God. Learn something new all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 17:40:33 GMT -5
This has been God's will and plan before the foundation of the world... Human beings will become like God Himself through Jesus' death on the Calvary's Cross.
I Peter 2:18-23
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Well there you go, I never equated Christian thought with the belief that they would become God. Learn something new all the time. i think the verse your looking for is this one: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 21:02:37 GMT -5
Well there you go, I never equated Christian thought with the belief that they would become God. Learn something new all the time. i think the verse your looking for is this one: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? I've been saying that for a long time now but every time I point that out, that we are all Gods, and quote that verse, people tell me 'no that's not what it means'.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 6, 2014 23:59:24 GMT -5
That sounds amazingly like the New Age belief that we are all individuated divine sparks, all connected and Gods in our own right. This has been God's will and plan before the foundation of the world... Human beings will become like God Himself through Jesus' death on the Calvary's Cross.
I Peter 2:18-23
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Nathan, where did you get the idea that God's plan was that human beings will become like God himself through Jesus ? Sounds like a Mormon belief. The above verses do not say man will become God !
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 9:39:37 GMT -5
This has been God's will and plan before the foundation of the world... Human beings will become like God Himself through Jesus' death on the Calvary's Cross.
I Peter 2:18-23
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Nathan, where did you get the idea that God's plan was that human beings will become like God himself through Jesus ? Sounds like a Mormon belief. The above verses do not say man will become God ! So we don't get to be Gods? That's more like what most have told me, but I have to say, Jesus did say we were Gods.
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 11:03:39 GMT -5
So we don't get to be Gods? That's more like what most have told me, but I have to say, Jesus did say we were Gods. Human beings are CREATED in the image of God... But We become like Jesus/God when we receive=Born again by His Spirit. Jesus is correct, You are gods. Jesus Christ came and died on Calvary's Cross so that we can be God like Himself/Jesus is God/Man in one body.Alright. It would be of interest to me now to find out how many other Christians believe this interpretation of that verse?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 12:40:35 GMT -5
i think the verse your looking for is this one: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? I've been saying that for a long time now but every time I point that out, that we are all Gods, and quote that verse, people tell me 'no that's not what it means'. what do they say it means?
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 13:56:58 GMT -5
I've been saying that for a long time now but every time I point that out, that we are all Gods, and quote that verse, people tell me 'no that's not what it means'. what do they say it means? Mostly that he is referring to something in the OT that had something to do with Jewish law. It seems to be blasphemy of some sort to say that you are God.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 8, 2014 1:03:57 GMT -5
Human beings are CREATED in the image of God... But We become like Jesus/God when we receive=Born again by His Spirit. Jesus is correct, You are gods. Jesus Christ came and died on Calvary's Cross so that we can be God like Himself/Jesus is God/Man in one body. Alright. It would be of interest to me now to find out how many other Christians believe this interpretation of that verse? I agree Snow, what are others views on this ? Maybe my thinking has been wrong for all those years !
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 9, 2014 3:30:56 GMT -5
Alright. It would be of interest to me now to find out how many other Christians believe this interpretation of that verse? I agree Snow, what are others views on this ? Maybe my thinking has been wrong for all those years ! Nathan is this your idea or did a worker say it ?
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2014 10:35:19 GMT -5
Nathan is this your idea or did a worker say it ? My understanding according to the scriptures. Someone wrote:Gen 1:26–27 And God said: Let us make mankind in our image/b’tsalmeinu, as our likeness/kid’muteinu. And they will have dominion over [the animals]…․And God created humankind in His image/b’tsalmo, in God's image/tselem He created him, male and female He created them. And God blessed them and God said to them: Be fruitfull and multiply, and fill the land and occupy it, and have dominion over the sea’s fish and the skies’ bird and every animal crawling over the land. Gen 5:1–3 This is the book of Adam’s generations: On the day God created Mankind, in God's likeness/d’mut He created him; male and female He created them, and He blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day of their being created. And Adam (Man) lived a hundred and thirty years and bore in his likeness/bid’muto like his image/k’tsalmo and called his name Seth. Gen 9:6 One who spills the blood of man, through/by man, his blood will be spilled, for in God's image/tselem He made man. The Image of God (Hebrew: צֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים; tzelem elohim, lit. "image of God", "image of the Holy Spirit", often appearing in Latin as Imago Dei) is a real image, concept and theological doctrine in Christianity, Judaism[1] and Sufi Islam,[2][3] which asserts that human beings are created in God's image and therefore have inherent value independent of their utility or function.To assert that humans are created in the image of God may mean to recognize some special qualities of human nature which allow God to be made manifest in humans. For humans to have a conscious recognition of having been made in the image of God may mean that they are aware of being that part of the creation through whom God's plans and purposes best can be expressed and actualized; humans, in this way, can interact creatively with the rest of creation. The moral implications of the doctrine of Imago Dei are apparent in the fact that, if humans are to love God, then humans must love other humans whom God has created (cf. John 13:35), as each is an expression of God. We may say that humans differ from all other creatures because of the self-reflective, rational nature of their thought processes - their capacity for abstract, symbolic as well as concrete deliberation and decision-making. This capacity gives the human a centeredness and completeness which allows the possibility for self-actualization and participation in a sacred reality (cf. Acts 17:28). However, despite the fact that according to this concept the human is created in God's image, the Creator granted the first true humans a freedom to reject a relationship with the Creator that manifested itself in estrangement from God, as the narrative of the Fall (Adam and Eve) exemplifies, thereby rejecting or repressing their spiritual and moral likeness to God. The ability and desire to love one's self and others, and therefore God, can become neglected and even opposed. We may be said to be the image of God, but that doesn't mean we are God. And, it would also mean that all humans are Gods not just the few in the 2x2 faith.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 9, 2014 19:45:33 GMT -5
I agree it's bad, but likely for different reasons, maybe not. But it is a belief many in the Christian world believe. That's one reason why I think making Jesus God took away from a very important message that would be there if Jesus was a man like us. It would give us hope that we could attain his level of enlightenment. But making him into a God takes away any hope of that possibility and makes us dependent of mercy only. I don't like that scenario at all and feel it's misguided and is a justification used when we fail to grow and mature into a responsible humanity. Jesus was God the Son (so we know God/Elohim=Plural... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who became a man so he could relate to us in our own humans thinking, feelings, understanding our weaknesses, short comings so He can Pray, intercede to the Father for us because He was one of us! God/Jesus made himself two kingdoms lowers so He can Redeem us from a lost eternity without God's presence forever. Jesus is God and Man in the same body.
Jesus came to enlighten us and bring us to on the same level with God, like Himself and the Father. We become the children of God.
Nathan re-read what you said above, "Jesus came to enlighten us and bring us to on the same level with God, like Himself and the Father. We become the children of God." We are human how can we ever be on the same level as God? Saying God made man in his image is NOT the same as saying we will be like God in heaven.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 10, 2014 3:14:56 GMT -5
Nathan are you saying humans will be on the same level as God in heaven ?
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