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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 14, 2014 20:47:07 GMT -5
Well, you can find a brief introduction to SOME of them in a book called The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Kersey Graves. It's about a century old now, so it's not footnoted as a 21st century research paper would be, but I read it nearly a decade ago and since then I have not found any credible research that has contradicted anything he has written. But I have to warn you -- this is not a lesson in theology, it is a study in historical records that Christian theologians have disregarded. There are a number of better ones than Kersey Graves but that's a start. The first in that line up to research the dying/rising God/man throughout history was Godfrey Higgins, then Gerald Massey and then Alvin Boyd Kuhn. Almost had a hernia lifting Godfrey Higgins books though!! Fascinating reading, if not somewhat dry. They were not written to entertain, but to inform. A lot of work was put into their completion. If you are interested Ross, I can also provide the titles. They are indeed no-nonsense researchers. Graves is really just an easy introduction.
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Post by snow on Jul 14, 2014 20:51:27 GMT -5
I'm having a great weekend at the beach admiring God's creation. It's winter but its warm so I've had to put on my rosé coloured glasses! I've enjoyed reading much history which reaffirms the evidence of the resurrection. It was also good to listen to a few atheist vs Christian debates again. I've also enjoyed reading again OT prophecy which Christ fulfilled. There are many and I'm not going to quote individual ones - happy to read any thesis that anyone might have on them though. My faith in a Christian God is backed by much evidence. I wonder why the Romans wrote within a few years of Christ's resurrection that Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Jesus made quite an impact on the world that people can try to dismiss, even claim that he didn't exist at all (even Dawkins under pressure acknowledges that Christ existed) but it's not so easy to dismiss and worth thinking about. Even the most devout atheist generally has faith in something, sometimes not even backed by evidence. My faith in an eternal logos is backed by much evidence. Not to disparage your belief in Jesus, but he is not the only Master that made an impact on the world. The Buddha was before Christ and Christ used a lot of what Buddha had already said. So, while I can imagine Jesus might have had an impact on people, he was not the first one to do so in history and he won't be the last.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 14, 2014 20:51:27 GMT -5
proselytise?
Now how would we do that? ehum.. Let me think a minute. I've got it! Before we let them have their bowl of soup we require that they DON'T say any prayer and insist on it! No prayer!
Hey! Thanks, Ross! That has been giving me sleepless nights! I think you missed my point again..... You quickly jump to conclusions! I wasn't even suggesting atheists proselytise - but come to think of it you do it pretty well! In response to a reasonably cynical view that Christians mainly give because they have the ulterior motive of proselytising, I was simply asking whether or not aethist giving (not necessarily charity) was ever linked to sponsoring your particular worldview. I would be interested in how many soup kitchens run by Christian organisations you have been in where people are required to pray before they are allowed to eat their soup....c'mon - healthy cynicism is good but I once had an atheist boss who told me that one of the challenges that athesists have is that they were far too cynical and it wasn't particularly helpful for them or their cause. Just another viewpoint... Did he tell you what their cause was? Some people are just plain condescending no matter what their cause is.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 14, 2014 20:52:21 GMT -5
proselytise?
Now how would we do that? ehum.. Let me think a minute. I've got it! Before we let them have their bowl of soup we require that they DON'T say any prayer and insist on it! No prayer!
Hey! Thanks, Ross! That has been giving me sleepless nights! I think you missed my point again..... You quickly jump to conclusions! I wasn't even suggesting atheists proselytise - but come to think of it you do it pretty well! In response to a reasonably cynical view that Christians mainly give because they have the ulterior motive of proselytising, I was simply asking whether or not aethist giving (not necessarily charity) was ever linked to sponsoring your particular worldview. I would be interested in how many soup kitchens run by Christian organisations you have been in where people are required to pray before they are allowed to eat their soup....c'mon - healthy cynicism is good but I once had an atheist boss who told me that one of the challenges that athesists have is that they were far too cynical and it wasn't particularly helpful for them or their cause. Just another viewpoint... So, you think that "I missed your point" and "jump to conclusions?"
How about I was rather just seeing an opportunity for humor and grabbed it ?
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Post by snow on Jul 14, 2014 20:52:32 GMT -5
There are a number of better ones than Kersey Graves but that's a start. The first in that line up to research the dying/rising God/man throughout history was Godfrey Higgins, then Gerald Massey and then Alvin Boyd Kuhn. Almost had a hernia lifting Godfrey Higgins books though!! Fascinating reading, if not somewhat dry. They were not written to entertain, but to inform. A lot of work was put into their completion. If you are interested Ross, I can also provide the titles. They are indeed no-nonsense researchers. Graves is really just an easy introduction. Yes he is exactly that.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 14, 2014 21:00:43 GMT -5
I wasn't even suggesting atheists proselytise - but come to think of it you do it pretty well! In response to a reasonably cynical view that Christians mainly give because they have the ulterior motive of proselytising, I was simply asking whether or not aethist giving (not necessarily charity) was ever linked to sponsoring your particular worldview. I would be interested in how many soup kitchens run by Christian organisations you have been in where people are required to pray before they are allowed to eat their soup....c'mon - healthy cynicism is good but I once had an atheist boss who told me that one of the challenges that athesists have is that they were far too cynical and it wasn't particularly helpful for them or their cause. Just another viewpoint...
Oh, my god! -good lord, Ross!
Would p-l-e-a-s-e look up in the dictionary or somewhere & find out how to correctly spell the word ATHEISTS!!
Wouldn't you resent me constantly misspelling "Christian?"
I don't understand why you think you know so much about us when you can't even to spell the word ATHEISTS! correctly!
Actually, in all due respect to your atheist boss, I find the main challenges that we atheists have, -is to get people, #1 -to spell the word correctly #2 - to understand the meaning of the word!
Another challenge we atheists have is trying to explain that we shouldn't even need the word "atheist"!
I don't think there is any god or gods, so why should I even need a word for something that I don't believe even exist?
I don't believe in wee folk; like fairies or bogarts or trolls or blue unicorns exist so I don't need a word beginning with an "a" for them!
You know, -say a word such as "afairist," abogartist, atroll, -well I think that you get the point.
Geeze, language does make things complicated sometimes.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 14, 2014 22:38:37 GMT -5
I'm having a great weekend at the beach admiring God's creation. It's winter but its warm so I've had to put on my rosé coloured glasses! I've enjoyed reading much history which reaffirms the evidence of the resurrection. It was also good to listen to a few atheist vs Christian debates again. I've also enjoyed reading again OT prophecy which Christ fulfilled. There are many and I'm not going to quote individual ones - happy to read any thesis that anyone might have on them though. My faith in a Christian God is backed by much evidence. I wonder why the Romans wrote within a few years of Christ's resurrection that Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Jesus made quite an impact on the world that people can try to dismiss, even claim that he didn't exist at all (even Dawkins under pressure acknowledges that Christ existed) but it's not so easy to dismiss and worth thinking about. Even the most devout atheist generally has faith in something, sometimes not even backed by evidence. My faith in an eternal logos is backed by much evidence. Not to disparage your belief in Jesus, but he is not the only Master that made an impact on the world. The Buddha was before Christ and Christ used a lot of what Buddha had already said. So, while I can imagine Jesus might have had an impact on people, he was not the first one to do so in history and he won't be the last. Someone by the name Jesus is in fact mentioned in Buddhist scriptures -- called Issa or Isa in that language. But who is to know which "Jesus" is being referred to. Ironically, in the New Testament Jesus was betrayed by another Jesus -- They changed HIS name to Judas to keep people from being confused.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 23:09:39 GMT -5
Not to disparage your belief in Jesus, but he is not the only Master that made an impact on the world. The Buddha was before Christ and Christ used a lot of what Buddha had already said. So, while I can imagine Jesus might have had an impact on people, he was not the first one to do so in history and he won't be the last. Someone by the name Jesus is in fact mentioned in Buddhist scriptures -- called Issa or Isa in that language. But who is to know which "Jesus" is being referred to. Ironically, in the New Testament Jesus was betrayed by another Jesus -- They changed HIS name to Judas to keep people from being confused. who's they?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 14, 2014 23:24:49 GMT -5
Someone by the name Jesus is in fact mentioned in Buddhist scriptures -- called Issa or Isa in that language. But who is to know which "Jesus" is being referred to. Ironically, in the New Testament Jesus was betrayed by another Jesus -- They changed HIS name to Judas to keep people from being confused. who's they? The people who translated the Bible.
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Post by rational on Jul 14, 2014 23:40:57 GMT -5
The people who translated the Bible. Translated the bible from what to what?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 14, 2014 23:50:34 GMT -5
The people who translated the Bible. Translated the bible from what to what? I don't know.
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Post by snow on Jul 14, 2014 23:52:34 GMT -5
It's a mystery...!??
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 23:55:33 GMT -5
Translated the bible from what to what? I don't know. are you meaning from Greek to English? or from Hebrew to English? or maybe Hebrew to Greek or maybe not at all? and if you don't know how do you know that the name wasn't Judas all along?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 23:57:16 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 15, 2014 0:06:21 GMT -5
are you meaning from Greek to English? or from Hebrew to English? I'm sure not. Not possible. You'll have to take that up with the linguistic scholars I have read. I trust the linguistic scholars. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 15, 2014 0:10:18 GMT -5
Which do you prefer? the mystery or the explanation? One thing is for certain, "Jesus" was not "Jesus" in the original text no matter what language it was written in, so all the appearances of "Jesus" were translated to something in all the other languages. But then, Christians don't like is to be told something by non-Christians, I have noticed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 0:20:40 GMT -5
Which do you prefer? the mystery or the explanation? One thing is for certain, "Jesus" was not "Jesus" in the original text no matter what language it was written in, so all the appearances of "Jesus" were translated to something in all the other languages. But then, Christians don't like is to be told something by non-Christians, I have noticed. the mystery because it is explained to me i all ready knew that and i know to be for those who know it all as well
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 15, 2014 3:22:02 GMT -5
Which do you prefer? the mystery or the explanation? One thing is for certain, "Jesus" was not "Jesus" in the original text no matter what language it was written in, so all the appearances of "Jesus" were translated to something in all the other languages. But then, Christians don't like is to be told something by non-Christians, I have noticed. the mystery because it is explained to me i all ready knew that and i know to be for those who know it all as well I suppose you mean that little exclusive group to whom some "revelation' has been made!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 3:34:29 GMT -5
the mystery because it is explained to me i all ready knew that and i know to be for those who know it all as well I suppose you mean that little exclusive group to whom some "revelation' has been made!
you mean the one Jesus speaks of?
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Post by snow on Jul 15, 2014 10:01:03 GMT -5
As far as I can see, Jesus never spoke of a particular group or religion and probably wouldn't even recognize what has been done and said 'in his name'. If he related to any religion it was Judaism, not Christianity.
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Post by xna on Jul 15, 2014 11:05:20 GMT -5
I suppose you mean that little exclusive group to whom some "revelation' has been made!
you mean the one Jesus speaks of? I agree with this church message. Attachments:
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Post by rational on Jul 15, 2014 12:42:00 GMT -5
Translated the bible from what to what? I don't know. The point was - you said someone changed Judas' name. I was wondering who since the Greek seems to be different names.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 15, 2014 19:57:12 GMT -5
I suppose you mean that little exclusive group to whom some "revelation' has been made!
you mean the one Jesus speaks of? Which "Jesus?"
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 15, 2014 21:06:47 GMT -5
I was wondering who since the Greek seems to be different names. I don't know what you mean by this.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 15, 2014 21:09:41 GMT -5
i all ready knew that and i know to be for those who know it all as well ??
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 23:44:21 GMT -5
i all ready knew that and i know to be for those who know it all as well ?? you wrote But then, Christians don't like is to be told something by non-Christians, I have noticed. I answered and i know to be for those who know it all as well
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 23:46:25 GMT -5
you mean the one Jesus speaks of? I agree with this church message. God doesn't hate anyone and neither do i
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 23:47:10 GMT -5
you mean the one Jesus speaks of? Which "Jesus?"the one you don't know
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