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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 3, 2014 14:50:50 GMT -5
I was told by an overseer that the sister workers are NOT apostles. Well, that overseer is wrong.But he was running the show, wasn't he?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 3, 2014 15:36:28 GMT -5
But he was running the show, wasn't he? Was that overseer Eldon T. by any chance? He was incorrect and dead wrong. on the sister workers are NOT apostles. The sisters are preaching/doing the same kind of gospel work as the brothers. The sister workers appoint church elders, having funerals, having gospel meetings, etc... The ONLY big difference is the brothers are in charge or taken the lead of work.No, it wasn't Eldon T.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 3, 2014 17:21:26 GMT -5
Ok Always thought the rest were disciples. From what I have read about Paul though, I'd say he appointed himself. I don't believe he had any vision and I think Christianity is based more on what Paul had to say than Jesus. That's my opinion anyway. Same here. Apostles were supposed to be those who were with him, and disciples were those who followed after. I'm wondering if this present day apostle designation originated with some idea that the Lord was still with them -- something like the notion that Kim Jung Un's grandfather is really still ruling the country. And Paul did appoint himself an apostle. Jesus certainly never did.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 4, 2014 2:20:49 GMT -5
The sisters workers have given up all to go in the work just like the brothers.... The sisters are apostles= Messengers/Ambassadors the gospel of Christ as the brothers. I was told by an overseer that the sister workers are NOT apostles. That must be true then, if you were told by an overseer.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2014 4:04:32 GMT -5
I was told by an overseer that the sister workers are NOT apostles. That must be true then, if you were told by an overseer. Well, at least that's how it works in his jurisdiction. I'm presuming that's why sister workers never make policy -- except for their own little corner of the kingdom.
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Post by faune on Jul 4, 2014 10:22:12 GMT -5
Same here. Apostles were supposed to be those who were with him, and disciples were those who followed after. I'm wondering if this present day apostle designation originated with some idea that the Lord was still with them -- something like the notion that Kim Jung Un's grandfather is really still ruling the country. And Paul did appoint himself an apostle. Jesus certainly never did. I don't believe Paul appointed himself as an apostle to the Gentiles. It was Jesus, who appointed/sent Paul as His apostle/minister of the gospel. Here are Ananias, Paul, and Jesus own words.
1) Ananias testimony Acts 9: 10-17
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.” But the Lord/Jesus said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
2) Paul own words of SEEING Jesus. Acts 22:17-22 17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’ 19 So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ Then He said to me, Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles."
3)Paul's own testimony about meeting Jesus in Acts 26: 9-18
“Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
Paul Recounts His Conversion
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Nathan ~ I also thought of Paul's own testimony in Acts 26:9-18 that you quoted above. However, this was a vision that he received on the road to Damascus regarding his persecution of the Christians, which was a personal affront to Jesus himself. This was the turning point in his life from persecutor to evangelist. However, he didn't exactly spend much time with the original apostles after-wards, but branched off on his own for 14 years. Today Christianity resembles more of Paul's teachings than those of the original apostles under the leadership of Jesus' brother, James, and Peter and John. When Jerusalem fell in 70 A.D. to the Romans, everything changed regarding the focus of Christianity on the Gentiles. The Hellenistic culture of the Greeks seemingly was incorporated into the Christian doctrine to help pacify the pagan converts and resulted in what we have today in the form of Christianity. Also some of the same sacred holidays were celebrated at the same time of year as were prominent in the pagan religions, only with a focus on Christ.
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Post by faune on Jul 4, 2014 10:22:55 GMT -5
Same here. Apostles were supposed to be those who were with him, and disciples were those who followed after. I'm wondering if this present day apostle designation originated with some idea that the Lord was still with them -- something like the notion that Kim Jung Un's grandfather is really still ruling the country. And Paul did appoint himself an apostle. Jesus certainly never did. I don't believe Paul appointed himself as an apostle to the Gentiles. It was Jesus, who appointed/sent Paul as His apostle/minister of the gospel. Here are Ananias, Paul, and Jesus own words.
1) Ananias testimony Acts 9: 10-17
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.” But the Lord/Jesus said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
2) Paul own words of SEEING Jesus. Acts 22:17-22 17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’ 19 So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ Then He said to me, Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles."
3)Paul's own testimony about meeting Jesus in Acts 26: 9-18
“Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
Paul Recounts His Conversion
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Nathan ~ I also thought of Paul's own testimony in Acts 26:9-18 that you quoted above. However, this was a vision that he received on the road to Damascus regarding his persecution of the Christians, which was a personal affront to Jesus himself. This was the turning point in his life from persecutor to evangelist. However, he didn't exactly spend much time with the original apostles after-wards, but branched off on his own for 14 years. Today Christianity resembles more of Paul's teachings than those of the original apostles under the leadership of Jesus' brother, James, and Peter and John. When Jerusalem fell in 70 A.D. to the Romans, everything changed regarding the focus of Christianity on the Gentiles. The Hellenistic culture of the Greeks seemingly was incorporated into the Christian doctrine to help pacify the pagan converts and resulted in what we have today in the form of Christianity along with the different celebration dates.
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Post by jamiek8407 on Jul 4, 2014 11:13:04 GMT -5
Nathan. I don't think you get what he saying about being dead. Jesus is not dead today but a lot of people are saying they have been appointed the only ones we know who truly were and deserve that title is the ones who lived with him on this earth
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Post by jamiek8407 on Jul 4, 2014 11:27:15 GMT -5
I know he is with it forever but it's pretty easy for people to say he has appointed them and no proof except that persons word. When he was here(physically)he would say nope that person is not of me
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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2014 13:16:03 GMT -5
Paul, teacher and/or prophet: Acts 13 Living Bible (TLB) 13 Among the prophets and teachers of the church at Antioch were Barnabas and Symeon (also called “The Black Man”), Lucius (from Cyrene), Manaen (the foster-brother of King Herod), and Paul.
I thought I read at one time how and/or when Paul was called an apostle - after being a prophet and/or teacher, but not using words or visions attributed to him.
As for F&W apostles, such designation would be relatively new. Overseers and workers seem to be the most common offices for quite a number of years.
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Post by faune on Jul 4, 2014 15:37:25 GMT -5
That must be true then, if you were told by an overseer. Well, at least that's how it works in his jurisdiction. I'm presuming that's why sister workers never make policy -- except for their own little corner of the kingdom. Bob ~ It seems only the male peacocks within the flock get to make the policy, since they have the ultimate authority over the members?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2014 15:46:18 GMT -5
Well, at least that's how it works in his jurisdiction. I'm presuming that's why sister workers never make policy -- except for their own little corner of the kingdom. Bob ~ It seems only the male peacocks within the flock get to make the policy, since they have the ultimate authority over the members? And there's a phenomenon that has been reported occurring in cultic groups that keep women second class -- they normally have more female members than male members. I remember seeing a workers list for Michigan one year and there was one pair of men workers and about 6 pairs of women workers.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2014 15:55:18 GMT -5
Bob ~ It seems only the male peacocks within the flock get to make the policy, since they have the ultimate authority over the members? Paul wrote 11:1-3 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
~~ This a man's world for 6 thousands years... It will be this way for long, long, time... I am glad and happy things are changing that women have made some progress on equality..... In the world and also in the 2x2 work of the ministry.
The work is harder on the men to continue on the end than the women workers.
Yes, of course it's harder on the men. The women are no threat to a man's place in a men-only institution.
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Post by faune on Jul 4, 2014 16:00:59 GMT -5
Paul wrote 11:1-3 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
~~ This a man's world for 6 thousands years... It will be this way for long, long, time... I am glad and happy things are changing that women have made some progress on equality..... In the world and also in the 2x2 work of the ministry.
The work is harder on the men to continue on the end than the women workers.
Yes, of course it's harder on the men. The women are no threat to a man's place in a men-only institution. Bob ~ And who would wait on the men and stroke their egos if it wasn't for the women workers to make them feel important on their pedestal?
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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2014 16:20:46 GMT -5
The work is harder on the men to continue on the end than the women workers. Why?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2014 16:34:38 GMT -5
Yes, of course it's harder on the men. The women are no threat to a man's place in a men-only institution. Bob ~ And who would wait on the men and stroke their egos if it wasn't for the women workers to make them feel important on their pedestal? Oh gosh -- I've seen a few memorable examples of that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2014 16:38:30 GMT -5
Yes, of course it's harder on the men. The women are no threat to a man's place in a men-only institution. Yep! Too much stress, burdensome for the overseers, the male workers to do EVERYTHING themselves... Thanks, goodness the overseers wise up and have given the sister workers more responsibilities in the work the last 20 yrs. I hope they will spread some of the work loads to church elders and the friends (In charge of conventions preps, helping with the gospel meetings, funerals, etc...) to unload some of the stress on the brother workers so they can spent more time on gospel missions, cares for the churches problems in the fields.
Are you kidding me? It only looks a bit more like that in the age of e-mail and cell phones.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2014 16:42:03 GMT -5
The stress of doing everything on the male workers.... gospel meetings, too many preps, funerals, mid-life crisis, temptations, last chance of having families, difficult companions to be with in the work, depression, loneliness, some believe the work is not their callings, fishbowl lifestyle, no privacy, etc.. Oh gosh. Oh my gosh. One minute they're passing it off to the sister workers, and the next they're taking it all themselves. Someone needs to appoint them a full time counselor.
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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2014 18:14:11 GMT -5
And women have none of these problems? where is that rolling eyes emoticon. Good grief Nathan. The sisters have similar challenges but they have a better control than the brothers. That is one of the reasons, there are more sisters than brothers on the staff.There is just too much to go over of which you do not understand.
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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2014 18:15:20 GMT -5
The stress of doing everything on the male workers.... gospel meetings, too many preps, funerals, mid-life crisis, temptations, last chance of having families, difficult companions to be with in the work, depression, loneliness, some believe the work is not their callings, fishbowl lifestyle, no privacy, etc.. Here, too, you write of that which you do not understand.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jul 5, 2014 11:15:01 GMT -5
I had an opportunity to discuss this advertisement with Tommie. It relates to a mission that Harold McKnight and he held in Lough Muck Orange Hall in Co Tyrone, Northern Ireland. It is important to understand his mind-set.
Tommie believes that the workers are in direct succession to the New Testament apostles. He believes that unless you hear the gospel message from a 2x2 worker there is no hope for you because there is no salvation for those outside the 2x2 movement.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 13:36:04 GMT -5
First they don't take a name.....now they do take a name?
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 16:40:39 GMT -5
Paul, teacher and/or prophet: Acts 13 Living Bible (TLB) 13 Among the prophets and teachers of the church at Antioch were Barnabas and Symeon (also called “The Black Man”), Lucius (from Cyrene), Manaen (the foster-brother of King Herod), and Paul. I thought I read at one time how and/or when Paul was called an apostle - after being a prophet and/or teacher, but not using words or visions attributed to him. As for F&W apostles, such designation would be relatively new. Overseers and workers seem to be the most common offices for quite a number of years. All of the apostles heard from god via gifts of revelation. They could all operate and function as teachers preachers pastor prophets.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 2, 2014 0:04:28 GMT -5
The " that's impossible clause" covers all such cases. ;-) Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." I believe Jesus was talking about it is hard for a rich man to enter in the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24-26 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”Nathan, do you know what Jesus was referring to here when he mentioned the "eye of a needle"?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 2, 2014 3:54:00 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan, I heard several times about the Needle gate at the meetings and how the poor old camel had to have its baggage stripped off and had to get down on its knees. Kind of like we do. Thanks for raising the other possibilities.
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