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Post by StAnne on May 4, 2014 19:46:19 GMT -5
The use of the word "Chair" is not quoted. That is just a man made misinterpretation of "rock". Is the scriptural Chair or Seat of Moses man-made too? Chair speaks to the authority conferred by God - upon Moses; and by Christ upon Peter and his successors.Of course it is limited to both time and people. The meaning is self-evident. What it is "meant" to mean is a man made misinterpretation.Where does Jesus say it will end.Unity and truth are two quite different things. Unity has nothing to do with truth and more often than not, it is evidence of a lie. King James 2000 Bible I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.The problem with the hand-me-downs is that the teachings got changed as it went further and further from the correct source: Jesus. It's little wonder that restoration and reformation movements have occurred over and over through the centuries, but always to fail when they set up their own corrupt political structures. Yep. That is why Jesus appointed an earthly authority over his church - that it would remain in the unity and doctrine of the Apostles - as is scriptural. And why that church is still here some 2000 years on ... because He said it would be.
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Post by slowtosee on May 4, 2014 19:46:35 GMT -5
.....and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship, I am told by "man", no, first you must jump through the hoops etc. I set up for you, and then after our approval you will be allowed to worship......with us, likewise many many other religious groups..with varying stipulations and regs ... alvin
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Post by StAnne on May 4, 2014 19:48:05 GMT -5
.....and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship, I am told by "man", no, first you must jump through the hoops etc. I set up for you, and then after our approval you will be allowed to worship......with us, likewise many many other religious groups..with varying stipulations and regs ... alvin Alvin, unless you are in unity of belief with a church - why would you want to receive their Communion. That is what receiving Comm union represents - that you are in union with what they believe and teach. Also - just as Catholics are not to receive if they have unconfessed mortal sins - neither should a non-Catholic who has not had access to the sacrament of Reconciliation. It is for your own protection as much as anything. 1 Cor 11:27 and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship,You may participate in every other aspect of the Liturgy - and may even go forward for a blessing in the communion line.
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Post by slowtosee on May 4, 2014 20:15:21 GMT -5
Thanks st. Anne. I have no problem that a man made group does not allow me to participate in their rituals, and I want to respect the rules and protocol of whatever group a person is with. I guess it is up to the group one is visiting with or whatever, what they will allow "outsiders" to participate in. It does signify, one truly is viewed as an outsider and not "one of us", and probably is the intention in many cases. Not quite what Jesus had in mind when he taught his inclusive whosoever , good news. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 20:16:12 GMT -5
Wally, St. Anne...... Is anyone suggesting there is a ever a WRONG way or time or place to worship HIM," in spirit and in truth?" I think also, Wally, you do believe Jesus is alive today? Alvin edit- not familiar with the "liturgy of the eucharist", but probably quite okay to worship Him in that "form", in spirit and in truth, but not the only "required" way any more than the "forms" that Wally suggested. yes he is alive but he is no longer physically present in front of us to bow at his feet and worship him we have to do it in the form of hymns, the word, prayer and the emblems...
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 20:19:16 GMT -5
.....and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship, I am told by "man", no, first you must jump through the hoops etc. I set up for you, and then after our approval you will be allowed to worship......with us, likewise many many other religious groups..with varying stipulations and regs ... alvin Alvin, unless you are in unity of belief with a church - why would you want to receive their Communion. That is what receiving Comm union represents - that you are in union with what they believe and teach. Also - just as Catholics are not to receive if they have unconfessed mortal sins - neither should a non-Catholic who has not had access to the sacrament of Reconciliation. It is for your own protection as much as anything. 1 Cor 11:27 and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship,You may participate in every other aspect of the Liturgy - and may even go forward for a blessing in the communion line. how do you shed unworthiness? 1 Cor 11:27
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Post by StAnne on May 4, 2014 20:31:28 GMT -5
Alvin, unless you are in unity of belief with a church - why would you want to receive their Communion. That is what receiving Comm union represents - that you are in union with what they believe and teach. Also - just as Catholics are not to receive if they have unconfessed mortal sins - neither should a non-Catholic who has not had access to the sacrament of Reconciliation. It is for your own protection as much as anything. 1 Cor 11:27 and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship,You may participate in every other aspect of the Liturgy - and may even go forward for a blessing in the communion line. how do you shed unworthiness? 1 Cor 11:27 In the Sacrament of Confession - instituted by Christ. 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20)
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 20:35:59 GMT -5
The use of the word "Chair" is not quoted. That is just a man made misinterpretation of "rock". Is the scriptural Chair or Seat of Moses man-made too? Chair speaks to the authority conferred by God - upon Moses; and by Christ upon Peter and his successors.Yes, extra-biblical terminology. I get that. Jesus spoke to a mortal, ephemeral man Peter. That is why it is self-evident that his message was for Peter, Peter only, and ended with Peter. That is why there has been reformations: political organizations always get corrupt, veer off their intended purpose and become more harmful and good. That is why Jesus promised the disciples that he would appoint the Holy Spirit would be the authority on the individuals who would form his church wherever they would be. Organizations and hierarchies form when no faith in the Holy Spirit exists.
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Post by StAnne on May 4, 2014 20:47:44 GMT -5
Jesus spoke to a mortal, ephemeral man Peter. That is why it is self-evident that his message was for Peter, Peter only, and ended with Peter. So the king holds the keys of the kingdom, but he delegates his power to the steward, and the keys of the kingdom are the symbol of this delegated authority. The keys not only opened all the doors, but they provided access to the store houses and financial resources of the king. In addition, the keys of the kingdom were worn on a sash that was a ceremonial badge of office. The passage from Isaiah and the customs all reveal that the role of the royal steward was an office given by the king, and that it was a successive office—the keys being handed to the next steward as a sign of the continuing delegated authority of the king himself (See "A Successive Ministry," above). Isaiah 22 provides the Old Testament context that Jesus’ disciples would have understood completely as he quoted this particular passage in Matthew 16. When Jesus said to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven," his disciples would recognize the passage from Isaiah. They would understand that not only was Jesus calling himself the King of his kingdom, but that he was appointing Peter as his royal steward. more at the link ... www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter%E2%80%99s-authority
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Post by StAnne on May 4, 2014 21:02:59 GMT -5
Yes, extra-biblical terminology. I get that. The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening." The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. The seat of authority (Moses); and of teaching and authority (the Pharisees). Transferred to the Chair of Peter at Pentecost. "I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven ..."
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Post by slowtosee on May 4, 2014 21:26:05 GMT -5
I am understanding that Nathan and st.anne are in agreement that the "keys " to the kingdom of God are in the hands of man, and these men control who is "in" and who is"out". The " messenger " trumps the message. The message is invalid to the recipient, if the recipient does not submit to the rules set up by the messenger. The messenger gets to interpret the message the way he feels it is to be applied. Alvin
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Post by StAnne on May 4, 2014 21:38:42 GMT -5
I am understanding that Nathan and st.anne are in agreement that the "keys " to the kingdom of God are in the hands of man, and these men control who is "in" and who is"out". The " messenger " trumps the message. The message is invalid to the recipient, if the recipient does not submit to the rules set up by the messenger. The messenger gets to interpret the message the way he feels it is to be applied. Alvin Jesus did establish an earthly authority - within the clearly defined bounds of valid Holy Orders in the line of the Apostles. Not beyond that.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 22:18:37 GMT -5
Quote - "As I've said before when your FAITH is in a 2x2 ministry as the only type of ministry on earth people will conveniently contort the Bible to suit that thinking. The JW's do it well also."
Ross, your argument is somewhat disengenous. I have some JW friends who go about doing "ministry." It isn't anything like ours - more like a part time, or even hobby affair. Everyone is supposed to do it, sometime or another.
When Jesus sent out his Ministry He told them they must give up everything - showing in themselves some of the personal ** death ** Jesus Himself showed.
And I don't know of any other ministry which Jesus MANDATED. He not only gave them a "two plus two" ministry but He laid out the rules and reasons for it. Yes, it was "two plus two" after Jesus. I have given the names of those recorded in the Acts and Epistles.
Form is Everything.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 4:13:45 GMT -5
Ross, what is YOUR take on this verse? "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake."
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2014 4:17:38 GMT -5
Hey Bert where does it say there were FEMALE WORKERS ??
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 4:31:03 GMT -5
Hey Bert where does it say there were FEMALE WORKERS ?? It's easier for me to refer to a website than to type up something of own, particulary when people here openly repudiate Paul's teachings (and Peter, John and Jude by extension) Paul’s first epistle to Timothy seems to limit women’s roles in leadership (see 1 Tim. 2:12). Yet Paul also gushed with praise for the women who served with him as co-laborers—women such as Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2), Junia (Rom. 16:7) and Priscilla, who helped lay foundations in the early church (see 1 Cor. 16:19). In Phil. 4:2-3, Paul expresses solidarity with two women leaders, Euodia and Syntyche. And he refers to other women who obviously led churches, such as Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11) and Nympha (Col. 4:15), and he does not try to silence or restrict them.
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Post by fixit on May 5, 2014 5:54:44 GMT -5
Hey Bert where does it say there were FEMALE WORKERS ?? It's easier for me to refer to a website than to type up something of own, particulary when people here openly repudiate Paul's teachings (and Peter, John and Jude by extension) Paul’s first epistle to Timothy seems to limit women’s roles in leadership (see 1 Tim. 2:12). Yet Paul also gushed with praise for the women who served with him as co-laborers—women such as Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2), Junia (Rom. 16:7) and Priscilla, who helped lay foundations in the early church (see 1 Cor. 16:19). In Phil. 4:2-3, Paul expresses solidarity with two women leaders, Euodia and Syntyche. And he refers to other women who obviously led churches, such as Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11) and Nympha (Col. 4:15), and he does not try to silence or restrict them.There's nothing there to justify women lording it over other believers. The way some sister workers have thrown their weight around is disgraceful Bert.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 6:06:29 GMT -5
Hey Bert where does it say there were FEMALE WORKERS ?? It's easier for me to refer to a website than to type up something of own, particulary when people here openly repudiate Paul's teachings (and Peter, John and Jude by extension) Paul’s first epistle to Timothy seems to limit women’s roles in leadership (see 1 Tim. 2:12). Yet Paul also gushed with praise for the women who served with him as co-laborers—women such as Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2), Junia (Rom. 16:7) and Priscilla, who helped lay foundations in the early church (see 1 Cor. 16:19). In Phil. 4:2-3, Paul expresses solidarity with two women leaders, Euodia and Syntyche. And he refers to other women who obviously led churches, such as Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11) and Nympha (Col. 4:15), and he does not try to silence or restrict them.actually nymphas was a guy according to the KJV Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 7:44:38 GMT -5
Quote - "There's nothing there to justify women lording it over other believers. The way some sister workers have thrown their weight around is disgraceful Bert."
Paul wrote, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae. So you should welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints and assist her in whatever matter she may require your help. For indeed she has been a benefactor of many—and of me also."
Sounds like a dragon woman, Fixit.
Not that Paul was much better: "I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others.."
Some people seem to think that Jesus and his disciples ran some sort of hippy love commune.
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Post by Greg on May 5, 2014 8:08:20 GMT -5
Hard to know the "service" of these women. (And as mentioned here and other places, not all cited as women were or might not have been actually women - creative license or error?) Could be they were elder/bishop's or deacon's wives. Could be their influence was restricted to inside the church and what little freedom they had openly in public.
My view on "homeless" is the workers take the forsaking of homes and no certain dwelling place as to mean have no home. For all we know - and I think this is the case - Jesus meant 'forsake what you have here' and not forsake having. And no certain dwelling place could mean most had not found where they would settle.
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Post by jondough on May 5, 2014 8:34:51 GMT -5
Us F&W make up two - one thousands of one percent of the world population.
So what I'm getting at is this.....Go homeless....go 2X2....have church in a home.....etc...etc....
but quit condemning the rest of the 99.9984 (actual number) percent of the population to Hell for not doing it like you. Thats the only problem I have.
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Post by Greg on May 5, 2014 8:50:52 GMT -5
Us F&W make up two - one thousands of one percent of the world population. So what I'm getting at is this.....Go homeless....go 2X2....have church in a home.....etc...etc.... but quit condemning the rest of the 99.9984 (actual number) percent of the population to Hell for not doing it like you. Thats the only problem I have. The opposing view? God saved eight in the ark. Eight. Eight is .002% of 400,000.
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Post by jondough on May 5, 2014 9:35:57 GMT -5
Us F&W make up two - one thousands of one percent of the world population. So what I'm getting at is this.....Go homeless....go 2X2....have church in a home.....etc...etc.... but quit condemning the rest of the 99.9984 (actual number) percent of the population to Hell for not doing it like you. Thats the only problem I have. The opposing view? God saved eight in the ark. Eight. Eight is .002% of 400,000. Do you think he would have done this because they worshipped Christ under some other roof besides a home? In addition, was it Noah's job to decide who got to enter the Ark, or was it God's?
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Post by Greg on May 5, 2014 9:44:17 GMT -5
The opposing view? God saved eight in the ark. Eight. Eight is .002% of 400,000. Do you think he would have done this because they worshipped Christ under some other roof besides a home? In addition, was it Noah's job to decide who got to enter the Ark, or was it God's? Do you think he would have done this because they worshipped Christ under some other roof besides a home?I don't know. In addition, was it Noah's job to decide who got to enter the Ark, or was it God's?God's.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2014 9:47:52 GMT -5
Pope - Chief of the Apostles 17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, * and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. * Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”Scripture References ... scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.htmlFathers ... 1 Corinthians 4:15 ... Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Jesus also said not to (wrongly) call anyone 'teacher' - teacher is 'doctor' in Latin. Have you ever referred to anyone as 'teacher' or 'doctor' - and I'm sure you knew you were not giving him or her God's place. Why do you think Jesus spoke against religious hierarchy? Something about that name "pope" for Peter doesn't seem as descriptive as what Jesus "named" him, Simon Peter, the rock...so why wouldn't the popes of the ages on be called "rocks".....sounds more stable at least!
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2014 9:55:18 GMT -5
.....and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship, I am told by "man", no, first you must jump through the hoops etc. I set up for you, and then after our approval you will be allowed to worship......with us, likewise many many other religious groups..with varying stipulations and regs ... alvin Alvin, unless you are in unity of belief with a church - why would you want to receive their Communion. That is what receiving Comm union represents - that you are in union with what they believe and teach. Also - just as Catholics are not to receive if they have unconfessed mortal sins - neither should a non-Catholic who has not had access to the sacrament of Reconciliation. It is for your own protection as much as anything. 1 Cor 11:27 and yet, if I want to participate in that "form" of worship,You may participate in every other aspect of the Liturgy - and may even go forward for a blessing in the communion line. I firmly disagree that we should be held to a particular religion's rules and doctrines that have been man's interpretation of the scripture and maybe as scewed as the churches they so loudly disallow in regards to participating in the Eucharist. The "eucharist" as you have repeated quoted is the "bread being Jesus' body" and the "wine being Jesus' blood"....now people have to have that drawing by God to begin to enter into "faith" in that body and blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.....repentance comes early supposedly in that faith....then all who believe on Jesus Christ should not perish but have everlasting life. There is NO WHERE in the gospels do I see where Jesus said that the partakers of the bread and wine would have to hold membership in the Judaism courts or in the religious Gentile courts, but that they must believe on him and partaking of those emblems bring them eternal life...but faith in those emblems meaning the bread and blood of Jesus Christ has to come first before partaking of them UNTO life eternal.....FAITH in Jesus Christ is the road to salvation, not church affiliation! IMO
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Post by StAnne on May 5, 2014 10:29:37 GMT -5
I firmly disagree that we should be held to a particular religion's rules and doctrines that have been man's interpretation of the scripture and maybe as scewed as the churches they so loudly disallow in regards to participating in the Eucharist. The "eucharist" as you have repeated quoted is the "bread being Jesus' body" and the "wine being Jesus' blood"....now people have to have that drawing by God to begin to enter into "faith" in that body and blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.....repentance comes early supposedly in that faith....then all who believe on Jesus Christ should not perish but have everlasting life. There is NO WHERE in the gospels do I see where Jesus said that the partakers of the bread and wine would have to hold membership in the Judaism courts or in the religious Gentile courts, but that they must believe on him and partaking of those emblems bring them eternal life...but faith in those emblems meaning the bread and blood of Jesus Christ has to come first before partaking of them UNTO life eternal.....FAITH in Jesus Christ is the road to salvation, not church affiliation! IMO maybe as scewed as the churches they so loudly disallow in regards to participating in the Eucharist.Nothing is loudly disallowed - they do not speak of others. Alvin asked a question. I responded to his question. Quietly. And as I explained to Alvin, the same rules apply to Catholics. If one has unconfessed sin, one should not present himself or herself for Holy Communion. There is NO WHERE in the gospels do I see where Jesus said that the partakers of the bread and wine would have to hold membership in the Judaism courts or in the religious Gentile courts, but that they must believe on him and partaking of those emblems bring them eternal life.There is no where in the gospels or any other place where Jesus refers to his BODY and BLOOD as emblems. Jesus refers to himself as the living bread - the bread of life - but in every other reference He says Body and Blood OR ' flesh' and ' blood'. 35 * Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. (John 6)
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luke 22) It is why Jesus gave the words of institution - that the validly ordained could consecrate the elements of bread and wine to BECOME his Body and his Blood - so that we may receive Him - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is how he remains IN us and us in Him. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
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Post by snow on May 5, 2014 11:42:38 GMT -5
So then why don't you just call yourself Jews? Why take a different label? Jesus wasn't a Christian. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."Ver. 17. Not to destroy the law, &c. It is true, by Christ's coming, a multitude of ceremonies and sacrifices, and circumcision, were to cease; but the moral precepts were to continue, and to be complied with, even with greater perfection. (Witham) --- To fulfil. By accomplishing all the figures and prophecies, and perfecting all that was imperfect. (Challoner) haydock1859.tripod.com/id19.html 'Christian' distinguished those who converted to Christ's doctrine from the practices of the Law that were to cease. Where did Jesus ever define which rules of Judaism were to be abolished? He came to fulfill the law. He was a Jew and in some ways wanted to make the Jewish laws even stricter than they were. His apostles still believed you needed to be circumcised it was Paul that abolished that when he went to the gentiles.
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