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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 9:58:41 GMT -5
Jesse, Are there many people you know personally, that would support this guy's thinking? I can't think of one person myself. Without any statistics, how would we conclude this is evidence of a trend, unless you do know MANY people that think like this? Of course, the fact he wrote a book, or whatever, would not indicate a trend in this direction, as we know paper has never refused ink. Alvin
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 10:06:27 GMT -5
The fact a book containing those ideas is published by an active university professor when it wouldn't have been even a hundred years ago is evidence of a trend. The fact that "gay and/or liberal Christians still struggle to accommodate these challenging new ideas" is evidence of the trend. The fact there are parades containing all sorts of lewdity that support these "challenging new ideas" is evidence of a trend.
The whole point of that kind of activism is to force a trend in the direction the activists want.
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Post by christiansburg on Apr 3, 2014 10:38:40 GMT -5
It is interesting to read about the mainline, generally liberal denominations downsizing while in my neck of the woods, the conservative, bible focused churches who meet in the commercial/industrial part of town are growing beyond the capacity of the space they rent or own. The largest one in the industrial section of town has an average weekly attendance of just over 5,000(per their published financial report)--one block down from our fellowship meeting of 10. That's up about 1000 over 2012 attendance if I remember correctly. My Mom keeps asking me 'how are they doing that?' and she looks puzzled when I answer with 'they preach the Bible clearly.' I live in somewhat of a Bible belt--multiple conservative seminaries and universities within no more than a 1.5 hr drive--so my statistics are likely only relevant for right here. There is the possibility that this growth you see might be only a consolidation of the fragments of other groups that have weakened. Just a thought. I have heard of those mega-churches.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 13:34:19 GMT -5
Jesse, Are there many people you know personally, that would support this guy's thinking? I can't think of one person myself. Without any statistics, how would we conclude this is evidence of a trend, unless you do know MANY people that think like this? Of course, the fact he wrote a book, or whatever, would not indicate a trend in this direction, as we know paper has never refused ink. Alvin Its interesting that people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 14:55:18 GMT -5
The fact a book containing those ideas is published by an active university professor when it wouldn't have been even a hundred years ago is evidence of a trend. The fact that "gay and/or liberal Christians still struggle to accommodate these challenging new ideas" is evidence of the trend. The fact there are parades containing all sorts of lewdity that support these "challenging new ideas" is evidence of a trend. The whole point of that kind of activism is to force a trend in the direction the activists want. They go to those extremes to get people talking about the subject. It is working by the looks of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 15:20:58 GMT -5
It is interesting to read about the mainline, generally liberal denominations downsizing while in my neck of the woods, the conservative, bible focused churches who meet in the commercial/industrial part of town are growing beyond the capacity of the space they rent or own. The largest one in the industrial section of town has an average weekly attendance of just over 5,000(per their published financial report)--one block down from our fellowship meeting of 10. That's up about 1000 over 2012 attendance if I remember correctly. My Mom keeps asking me 'how are they doing that?' and she looks puzzled when I answer with 'they preach the Bible clearly.' I live in somewhat of a Bible belt--multiple conservative seminaries and universities within no more than a 1.5 hr drive--so my statistics are likely only relevant for right here. There is the possibility that this growth you see might be only a consolidation of the fragments of other groups that have weakened. Just a thought. I have heard of those mega-churches. I've been to several of these churches and know quite a few members. Probably 60% are young, lots of new believers, and a lovely sprinkling of gray hair and receding hairlines that makes me feel at home They are hearing a Christ-filled gospel, with a solid focus on teachings of the Bible as it relates to daily living, and some of the older folks might have come out of the liberal churches that aren't doing so well. I'm not exactly sure that these qualify as mega-churches, as I think those are more in the 20-40k membership. The two of the three churches near me that I know about with 4-5k membership have pastors with a Baptist background and the other one is Calvary chapel.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 16:12:56 GMT -5
...with a solid focus on teachings of the Bible as it relates to daily living... This is what the early workers focused on. Now the message is largely focused around ministry/system worship and "encouraging" messages assuring listeners that all is well in 2x2-land.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 17:01:52 GMT -5
Jesse, Are there many people you know personally, that would support this guy's thinking? I can't think of one person myself. Without any statistics, how would we conclude this is evidence of a trend, unless you do know MANY people that think like this? Of course, the fact he wrote a book, or whatever, would not indicate a trend in this direction, as we know paper has never refused ink. Alvin Its interesting that people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world". Who do you have in mind fixit?
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 18:06:30 GMT -5
Hi Jesse, I am not fixit, but looks like he had me and you in mind, as we are people , as far as I know. I definitely recognize that tendency in myself, to criticise the "evil in the world" and defend the "evil" in myself. Jesus recognized that trait in humanity also, when he criticised the Pharisees- Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. It's just in us , it seems , to "look good" , but really inwardly if we do serious soul searching, it's not soooooo pretty after all, and I need HIS righteousness , not my own. Here's a modern song, that would seem maybe almost sacreligous to some , but there is a message in it , albeit from "darker" viewpoint maybe , but it's like saying " all my righteousness is like filthy rags" . Oh,I am sure we could find lots of "evil" in the band members etc.- well, just look at their hair and actions and ......... www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_KlmhXI7GoAlvin When the days are cold and the cards all fold and saints we see all made of gold when your dreams all fail and the ones we hail are the worst of all and the blood's run stale but with the beast inside there's nowhere we can hide No matter what we breed we still are made of greed this is my kingdom come this is my kingdom come when you feel my heat look into my eyes it's where my demons hide it's where my demons hide don't get too close it's dark inside it's where my demons hide it's where my demons when the curtain's call is the last of all when the light fade out all the sinners crawl so they dug your grave and the masquerade will come calling out at the mess you made don't want to let you down but i am hell bound though this is all for you don't want to hide the truth no matter what we breed we still are made of greed this is my kingdom come this is my kingdom come when you feel my heat look into my eyes It's where my demons hide it's where my demons hide don't get too close it's dark inside it's where my demons hide it's where my demons hide they say its what you make i say its up to fate it's woven in my soul i need to let you go your eyes they shine so bright i want to save that light i can't escape this now unless you show me how when you feel my heat look into my eyes It's where my demons hide It's where my demons hide don't get too close it's dark inside its where my demons hide it's where my demons hide
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2014 18:44:21 GMT -5
The "argument" here is that declining attendance in my church is somehow related to reason x,y,z. But all churches are declining, more or less to the same extent, whether there be any x,y,z in sight. Therefor x,y,z's can't seriously be The Issue here. It could be due to more and more people becoming more spiritual than religious? Not many people believe in the traditional forms of religion anymore. More and more are questioning the Gods that rule these religions. Many people see God or the essence of creation as a loving being, and they don't believe in eternal punishment by such a being so the traditional God of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is quite the turn off. Many people no longer feel God is about rules, punishment and exclusiveness. The world doesn't want to have anything to do with things that divide humanity and exclude other groups, at least as far as spirituality goes.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 18:46:16 GMT -5
Alvin do you think fixit had himself in mind?
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 18:48:40 GMT -5
Its interesting that people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world". Who do you have in mind fixit? Let's consider the issues, and not make it personal.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 18:56:07 GMT -5
Who do you have in mind fixit? Let's consider the issues, and not make it personal. You made it personal, now answer the question.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 19:05:34 GMT -5
Alvin do you think fixit had himself in mind? Probably not, although I dont' know him/her? Do you think he specifically had YOU in mind , and if so, how would that change the truth or untruth of anything he wrote? Presume, he had ME in mind, when he wrote that, I think it is true what he said- PERIOD. Alvin
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 19:15:01 GMT -5
What fixit said is in direct reference to your comment about what I posted. If he had you in mind what he said is a lie. I have never seen you "be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"."
Maybe fixit has Dr. Harris in mind, we won't know though until he answers the question.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 19:22:31 GMT -5
What fixit said is in direct reference to your comment about what I posted. If he had you in mind what he said is a lie. I have never seen you "be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." Maybe fixit has Dr. Harris in mind, we won't know though until he answers the question. A big hindrance to getting things fixed in our fellowship is the inability to consider issues without making it personal. System-minded folks assume that something is wrong with anyone who dares to suggest that all is not well in 2x2-land.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 19:25:14 GMT -5
What fixit said is in direct reference to your comment about what I posted. If he had you in mind what he said is a lie. I have never seen you "be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." Maybe fixit has Dr. Harris in mind, we won't know though until he answers the question. A big hindrance to getting things fixed in our fellowship is the inability to consider issues without making it personal. System-minded folks assume that something is wrong with anyone who dares to suggest that all is not well in 2x2-land. Who do you have in mind fixit?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 19:31:29 GMT -5
"System minded folks" being those who "assume something is wrong with anyone who dares to suggest that all is not well in 2x2-land."
"the inability to consider issues without making it personal."
"people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"."
Who are these people? You make it personal and are being specific when you say what you do - so - who do you have in mind? How are these people supposed to fixit if you won't say who you have in mind?
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 19:33:56 GMT -5
Thanks for your graciousness towards me, Jesse, but I am guilty as fixit said, ,in my mind, to dig up evil in the world to criticise and resent it when I am criticised. I kinda wish it wasn't so true, of myself, so I deliberately remind myself, "hey , am I REALLY any "better" . Okay, no, I might not participate in that "evil" , but maybe it has crossed my mind to, or even watched with interest, albeit critically as "others" participate . Agreed, we all need to make a stand against "evil" , but I think from the standpoint that same "evil" is capable of being within all of us, sometimes unbeknownst (is that even a word?) to us. The Pharisees were a good example of this. They were actually very good people trying their best , by laws and good effort and diligence , to what was "right", but failed to see their own "evil" within. Alvin
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 19:50:11 GMT -5
Thanks for your graciousness towards me, Jesse, but I am guilty as fixit said, ,in my mind, to dig up evil in the world to criticise and resent it when I am criticised. I kinda wish it wasn't so true, of myself, so I deliberately remind myself, "hey , am I REALLY any "better" . Okay, no, I might not participate in that "evil" , but maybe it has crossed my mind to, or even watched with interest, albeit critically as "others" participate . Agreed, we all need to make a stand against "evil" , but I think from the standpoint that same "evil" is capable of being within all of us, sometimes unbeknownst (is that even a word?) to us. The Pharisees were a good example of this. They were actually very good people trying their best , by laws and good effort and diligence , to what was "right", but failed to see their own "evil" within. Alvin Alvin this is what fixit said: "Its interesting that people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." I don't know if fixit wants us to be guessing here but "yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." doesn't appear to mean resenting criticism of one's self like you said. It seems fixit is referring people who resent criticism of others, not themselves. We won't know until fixit answers the question. fixit should be as specific as Jesus was when he answers the question.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2014 19:53:01 GMT -5
That's true. Not sure of the point. Incidentally - seems there were those who despised Paul and claimed that he wasn't an apostle as he wasn't with the twelve from the beginning. These people despised him then (as they do now) for being hierarchical, judgemental, moralistic, legal and the like. As they should too.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2014 20:01:35 GMT -5
Perfect to you, or perfect to God? Is there a difference?
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Post by jondough on Apr 3, 2014 20:03:13 GMT -5
Thanks for your graciousness towards me, Jesse, but I am guilty as fixit said, ,in my mind, to dig up evil in the world to criticise and resent it when I am criticised. I kinda wish it wasn't so true, of myself, so I deliberately remind myself, "hey , am I REALLY any "better" . Okay, no, I might not participate in that "evil" , but maybe it has crossed my mind to, or even watched with interest, albeit critically as "others" participate . Agreed, we all need to make a stand against "evil" , but I think from the standpoint that same "evil" is capable of being within all of us, sometimes unbeknownst (is that even a word?) to us. The Pharisees were a good example of this. They were actually very good people trying their best , by laws and good effort and diligence , to what was "right", but failed to see their own "evil" within. Alvin Alvin this is what fixit said: "Its interesting that people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." I don't know if fixit wants us to be guessing here but "yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." doesn't appear to mean resenting criticism of one's self like you said. It seems fixit is referring people who resent criticism of others, not themselves. We won't know until fixit answers the question. fixit should be as specific as Jesus was when he answers the question. My guess is he is talking about the self righteous.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 20:07:06 GMT -5
Alvin this is what fixit said: "Its interesting that people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." I don't know if fixit wants us to be guessing here but "yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." doesn't appear to mean resenting criticism of one's self like you said. It seems fixit is referring people who resent criticism of others, not themselves. We won't know until fixit answers the question. fixit should be as specific as Jesus was when he answers the question. My guess is he is talking about the self righteous. I'd like to know who he had in mind. People here on TMB? People off TMB? Christians? Atheists? Who? No one will know for sure until fixit answers the question.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 20:10:48 GMT -5
"System minded folks" being those who "assume something is wrong with anyone who dares to suggest that all is not well in 2x2-land." "the inability to consider issues without making it personal." "people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." Who are these people? You make it personal and are being specific when you say what you do - so - who do you have in mind? How are these people supposed to fixit if you won't say who you have in mind? Who these people are is immaterial. Its not about singling out individuals and putting a label on them. Its about attitudes and behaviors, and these attributes could be in all of us. We all need to fixit Jesse.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2014 20:16:22 GMT -5
even with its downward trend the numbers seem very high for violence... Well if you read the OT and remember just how few people there were back then, you would come away with a high violence and most of it would be by God's command too. Our world may be violent, but it's no more violent that it has been over the centuries and there are a whole lot more people that are conscious of things now that people thought were just standard back then line stoning their children, selling their daughters, etc.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2014 20:17:27 GMT -5
"System minded folks" being those who "assume something is wrong with anyone who dares to suggest that all is not well in 2x2-land." "the inability to consider issues without making it personal." "people can be so diligent at digging up evil in the world to criticise, yet resent any criticism of those who are supposed to be "the light of the world"." Who are these people? You make it personal and are being specific when you say what you do - so - who do you have in mind? How are these people supposed to fixit if you won't say who you have in mind? Who these people are is immaterial. Its not about singling out individuals and putting a label on them. Its about attitudes and behaviors, and these attributes could be in all of us. We all need to fixit Jesse. I don't think it is immaterial who these people are. That is a non caring attitude. If they are that messed up they need to know. "diligent at digging up evil in the world " who does that that? Who did you have in mind?
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 20:18:12 GMT -5
Jesse, do you have any idea why professing youth are drifting away from the meetings?
Can you suggest what could be done to make the fellowship more meaningful for them?
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