Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 17:25:16 GMT -5
Bert, Are you saying the CSA problem in your church has NO effect on attendance? Alvin I am saying that CSA has not been shown to effect church attendance trend lines. I have no graphs of the F&W to go by. But if you call up a graph of the Catholic Church (say) you can see a slow downward attendance dip which started long, long before any CSA issue - AND DID NOT ACCELERATE WITH THE CSA SCANDAL. (I would put some graphs here but can't be bothered figuring out how to embed graphics in this new ProBoard.) In the late 1980's when the CSA scandals were emerging publicly, there was a sharp drop in RCC attendance as well as a similarly sharp drop in the number of self-identifying Catholics. The numbers stabilized when the RCC starting writing child protection policies in the early 1990's. The late 1980's drop was unusually sharp that one would have to attribute at least some of it to the CSA scandals.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Apr 1, 2014 17:30:01 GMT -5
Thanks , Bert. Interesting. One would think people with sincere integrity would be asking serious questions and more would "vote", by their attendance , to protect children? We are discussing "religious" institutions, but I wonder if the graph is the same for others, like boy scouts , sports , police forces etc. Is there any less interest or "attendance"in football or hockey , after disclosure of sexual abuse in that "business"? Maybe "attendance" not a good indicator of anything? Alvin Thanks for your graph, Clearday , we were posting at same time and missed it
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 17:30:48 GMT -5
Interesting, but here's the problems:
1 - the trend line for the RCC in this particular graph isn't pronounced as one would expect for major Boston type scandals. (you can see one single downward solid line through the graph - and taking it back to, say, 1900, would be really interesting)
2 - Protestant churches have faced similar CSA charges.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 17:39:30 GMT -5
Thanks , Bert. Interesting. One would think people with sincere integrity would be asking serious questions and more would "vote", by their attendance , to protect children? We are discussing "religious" institutions, but I wonder if the graph is the same for others, like boy scouts , sports , police forces etc. Is there any less interest or "attendance"in football or hockey , after disclosure of sexual abuse in that "business"? Maybe "attendance" not a good indicator of anything? Alvin Thanks for your graph, Clearday , we were posting at same time and missed it Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving the churches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent, adulterous and drug addled culture. By way of example. Some might say that CSA scandals in the Boy Scouts have led to a drop in attendance. But as a former Boy Scout I can see full well that the scout movement's decline has nothing to do with CSA and a lot to do with not being "cool" anymore.
|
|
|
Post by mdm on Apr 1, 2014 18:12:42 GMT -5
Thanks , Bert. Interesting. One would think people with sincere integrity would be asking serious questions and more would "vote", by their attendance , to protect children? We are discussing "religious" institutions, but I wonder if the graph is the same for others, like boy scouts , sports , police forces etc. Is there any less interest or "attendance"in football or hockey , after disclosure of sexual abuse in that "business"? Maybe "attendance" not a good indicator of anything? Alvin Thanks for your graph, Clearday , we were posting at same time and missed it Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving the churches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent, adulterous and drug addled culture. By way of example. Some might say that CSA scandals in the Boy Scouts have led to a drop in attendance. But as a former Boy Scout I can see full well that the scout movement's decline has nothing to do with CSA and a lot to do with not being "cool" anymore. Bert, why do you think that parents who leave churches due to CSA would happily expose those same children to a violent,.... culture? While I was in the meetings, my children were exposed LESS to negative elements of culture than most kids in meetings. Friends' kids have computers in their bedrooms and are addicted to their DVD players and cell phones. I don't allow that. I didn't protect my kids from negative elements in the surrounding culture just because we were in the meetings, and I will not stop doing it just because we go to a different church. Also, I should say that we didn't leave the meetings because of past cover ups of CSA and immorality, but because we did not receive the needed assurances that cover ups will not happen again, and because current cover ups are not uncovered and fixed. You can be sure I will not join a church that is not willing or able to give me those assurances. As one worker told us, "there is no reason why overseers would not do what we asked for in our letter." There is no reason why not to make every effort to make the fellowship a safer place.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 18:56:22 GMT -5
Interesting, but here's the problems: 1 - the trend line for the RCC in this particular graph isn't pronounced as one would expect for major Boston type scandals. (you can see one single downward solid line through the graph - and taking it back to, say, 1900, would be really interesting) 2 - Protestant churches have faced similar CSA charges. It's not the incidences of CSA that destroy a church. It is the response to the incidences that destroys it. A church that does not acknowledge the problems in the past and takes no action to reduce the likelihood of future offences becomes viewed as a dangerous place to be where the safety of children is not valued. Protestant churches were the quickest to respond to the abuse charges and as a result, came out of it quite well in most cases. The public are quick to forgive when problems are admitted to and acted upon. In fact, that will often enhance the reputation of that organization.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 19:02:33 GMT -5
Thanks , Bert. Interesting. One would think people with sincere integrity would be asking serious questions and more would "vote", by their attendance , to protect children? We are discussing "religious" institutions, but I wonder if the graph is the same for others, like boy scouts , sports , police forces etc. Is there any less interest or "attendance"in football or hockey , after disclosure of sexual abuse in that "business"? Maybe "attendance" not a good indicator of anything? Alvin Thanks for your graph, Clearday , we were posting at same time and missed it Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving the churches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent, adulterous and drug addled culture. By way of example. Some might say that CSA scandals in the Boy Scouts have led to a drop in attendance. But as a former Boy Scout I can see full well that the scout movement's decline has nothing to do with CSA and a lot to do with not being "cool" anymore. That's not one of your finest posts Bert. Parents who leave a church due to high exposure to potential threats to their children are simply not the type of people who send their children out to play with drug addicts. They are parents who are continually taking steps to keep their children safe, not putting them in a worse place. As far as churches go, there are plenty which are much safer from CSA than the F&WS.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2014 19:04:49 GMT -5
As one worker told us, "there is no reason why overseers would not do what we asked for in our letter." There is no reason why not to make every effort to make the fellowship a safer place. Could it be that foxes are guarding the henhouse?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 23:10:34 GMT -5
So, presuming you left your little meeting BrownOwl (to the consternation of all who loved you and are faithful) where did you find The Real Truth?
nb And remember, most of these people don't like any sort of sexual misconduct - be it CSA, divorce, sex-before-marriage, homosexuality, bestiality, porn, sexual innuendo, promiscuity, incest, single- parenthood and a host of other things which are an indespensible part of the world's "popular culture" and pretty well taken for granted behavior these days.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2014 23:37:55 GMT -5
In Australia there has been a huge CSA scandal with the Catholic Church. Since 1996 one third of that church's congregation has left. That's HUGE. CSA is often cited as a significant reason. We have similar CSA issues now with the Salvation Army. Yet a cursory examination of any attendance graph, of any church, shows that attendance has been falling for generation after generation. And issues like homosexuality, women preachers and CSA has not even dented those graph trend lines.Forget falling church attendance, standards are falling. Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement. Brown Owl says: Hi Bert "Child Sex Abuse is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself at the judgement". Do you think it will sound something like this? Lord we loved the way. We loved those that you called forth just like those apostles of old, but why did you call forth paedophile apostles that fiddled with us? And why did nobody take any notice of our pleas? Not even those that you called forth to be leaders among your chosen people? The following scripture comes to mind...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 23:43:06 GMT -5
That's true. Not sure of the point.
Incidentally - seems there were those who despised Paul and claimed that he wasn't an apostle as he wasn't with the twelve from the beginning. These people despised him then (as they do now) for being hierarchical, judgemental, moralistic, legal and the like.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Apr 2, 2014 4:34:30 GMT -5
You are throwing up a strawman argument. Large numbers of Catholics, for example, claim the reason they no longer attend Mass is because of the CSA issue. But in fact the CSA issue hasn't effected church attendance trend lines at all. If there was no CSA in the Catholic Church then the figures for declining attendance would be just the same, ie 30% decline since 1996 in Australia. This proves many lapsed Catholics are using CSA as an excuse. Where are you sourcing your statistics and what sort of statistics are they supposed to be? Religious affiliation? Mass attendance? In the 1996 census 4,798,950 of 17,892,423 Australians selected Catholic. In the 2011 census the figures are 5,439,268 of 21,507,719 Australians.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Apr 2, 2014 4:39:05 GMT -5
Surely you jest. Jesus et al were talking about the temple, priesthood, holy days and other symbols. These men spoke of fellowship; gathering together in Jesus' name; nor forsaking our assembly etc.. Those who loved God were drawn to assemble; to imbibe the Word and be an encouragement to others. Personally I find those who are faithful in attendance a great encouragement to me. Those who are off watching football or whatever are both offensive and discouraging. Assuming you are talking about Australia (unless you live in WA or are talking about local football games) I am unaware of any football games that coincide with either the Wed night or Sunday am meetings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 4:56:35 GMT -5
Elle hi. We have lots of Friday night missions. I can refer literally to certain football fans, but I meant it figuratively. I don't have the figures for the Catholic Church. I got the 30% since 1996 from (if I recall) the ABC Religion and Ethics Report. This report went further - the speaker presaged a wholesale collapse of the RCC in Australia due to the age of its active members. Only immigrant people were keeping it afloat. This might be the pessimistic end of the opinion spectrum?
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Apr 2, 2014 7:18:52 GMT -5
Elle hi. We have lots of Friday night missions. I can refer literally to certain football fans, but I meant it figuratively. I don't have the figures for the Catholic Church. I got the 30% since 1996 from (if I recall) the ABC Religion and Ethics Report. This report went further - the speaker presaged a wholesale collapse of the RCC in Australia due to the age of its active members. Only immigrant people were keeping it afloat. This might be the pessimistic end of the opinion spectrum? The 30% sounds extreme, and not in line at all with any other stats I've seen which is why I question it. Arrh. Sounds like you are from the 4 meetings/missions a week state(s). Friday night missions when a lot of working people are very exhausted, or expected to stay late at the office to be social, are more than a little inconsiderate IMO.
|
|
jj
Junior Member
Posts: 95
|
Post by jj on Apr 2, 2014 9:03:17 GMT -5
In Australia there has been a huge CSA scandal with the Catholic Church. Since 1996 one third of that church's congregation has left. That's HUGE. CSA is often cited as a significant reason. We have similar CSA issues now with the Salvation Army. Yet a cursory examination of any attendance graph, of any church, shows that attendance has been falling for generation after generation. And issues like homosexuality, women preachers and CSA has not even dented those graph trend lines.Forget falling church attendance, standards are falling. Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement. I don't believe that church attendance is an absolute requirement of salvation, rather trusting in Jesus. I also believe that human nature/ standards haven't changed over the centuries, rather that certain 'issues' were just kept hidden and suppressed, as social consequences for those who stepped out of the mould, or made mistakes were more severe, (the victorian concept of 'the fallen woman' etc comes to mind, and I believe this concept persists in part today ). People have been commenting on the moral degradation of society for many many years, but I guess that's a whole other topic As for young people drifting from the meetings I would say the main reasons would be easy acess of information, stifling traditions and higher, more widespread levels of education, but again that's just a guess
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 9:28:11 GMT -5
In Australia there has been a huge CSA scandal with the Catholic Church. Since 1996 one third of that church's congregation has left. That's HUGE. CSA is often cited as a significant reason. We have similar CSA issues now with the Salvation Army. Yet a cursory examination of any attendance graph, of any church, shows that attendance has been falling for generation after generation. And issues like homosexuality, women preachers and CSA has not even dented those graph trend lines.Forget falling church attendance, standards are falling. Citing CSA is just another excuse that people will probably try on God Himself in the Judgement. I don't believe that church attendance is an absolute requirement of salvation, rather trusting in Jesus. I also believe that human nature/ standards haven't changed over the centuries, rather that certain 'issues' were just kept hidden and suppressed, as social consequences for those who stepped out of the mould, or made mistakes were more severe, (the victorian concept of 'the fallen woman' etc comes to mind, and I believe this concept persists in part today ). People have been commenting on the moral degradation of society for many many years, but I guess that's a whole other topic That's right. Every generation says it is getting worse. If that were true, there wouldn't be 7 billion people on this planet today. The population explosion of the last couple of centuries is a sure sign that the human experience is getting better and thriving. My theory is that we tend to think of our generation getting worse because as a child, we see the world as pretty beautiful and perfect. As we get older we get more information, see more bad stuff and experience more bad stuff. So it is an illusion that things are getting worse, it's simply that we increasinly see the bad stuff we didn't see before. I would imagine that the reasons for young people leaving are really varied and a bit different than previous generations. I think that kids don't face the religiously oriented emotional abuse today that they once did. It is still there with some system minded parents, but for the most part, parents don't practice conditional love and emotional blackmail as much as they once did. So the reasons for leaving today are different today than when kids left to escape the emotional abuse. Still, I have seen the results of quite a few kids with baby boomer parents and there is that tendency for the most system minded hardcore parents to lose their kids from the meetings while the more relaxed liberal parents kept their kids in the meetings. Those kids aren't hardcore and probably stay for family reasons more than faith reasons.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Apr 2, 2014 10:17:41 GMT -5
Thanks , Bert. Interesting. One would think people with sincere integrity would be asking serious questions and more would "vote", by their attendance , to protect children? We are discussing "religious" institutions, but I wonder if the graph is the same for others, like boy scouts , sports , police forces etc. Is there any less interest or "attendance"in football or hockey , after disclosure of sexual abuse in that "business"? Maybe "attendance" not a good indicator of anything? Alvin Thanks for your graph, Clearday , we were posting at same time and missed it Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving the churches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent, adulterous and drug addled culture. By way of example. Some might say that CSA scandals in the Boy Scouts have led to a drop in attendance. But as a former Boy Scout I can see full well that the scout movement's decline has nothing to do with CSA and a lot to do with not being "cool" anymore. I don't think the Boy Scouts "coolness" factor has changed at all from when I was a kid. I'm not arguing that attendance is or is not affected by the CSA exposure. I have my own reasons why I think this is, but thats not important, and would make for too long of a post. There are many factors for drop in attendance in our fellowship....CSA being one little tiny - probably an un-measurable one by itself. I believe that if there is any single source to point at, it would be simply the internet....Or could we say "the Information Age". I can give many examples of why I think this is. One of them is not CSA, but simply the awareness that CSA exist. CSA was much more prevalent amongst F&W 30 - 40 years ago than it is today. This was a time when the fellowship was growing quite substantially. It is the "awareness" factor that have really caused many to leave. The majority that choose to stay are pretty much of the mind that they don't want to know many things. My wife is one of them. She doesn't want to know many of the negatives within our fellowship...she says that it only discourages her. Our kids are different. They were raised digging out their own information from all sources available. They are not afraid of information, and being aware. They have been raised and taught to do this, and to use their own critical thinking. We have raised them NOT to believe something just because someone told them it was so....."Google" is a verb now. Kids "google" everything. "Information" This is why many are leaving.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Apr 2, 2014 11:06:10 GMT -5
One of the things to note that has not been mentioned is that there are VERY VERY few sycophants under the age of 25. When I was a kid, we were all sycophants.
This will be very interesting how this affects the fellowship as a whole.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 12:13:25 GMT -5
Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving the churches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent, adulterous and drug addled culture. By way of example. Some might say that CSA scandals in the Boy Scouts have led to a drop in attendance. But as a former Boy Scout I can see full well that the scout movement's decline has nothing to do with CSA and a lot to do with not being "cool" anymore. I don't think the Boy Scouts "coolness" factor has changed at all from when I was a kid. I'm not arguing that attendance is or is not affected by the CSA exposure. I have my own reasons why I think this is, but thats not important, and would make for too long of a post. There are many factors for drop in attendance in our fellowship....CSA being one little tiny - probably an un-measurable one by itself. I believe that if there is any single source to point at, it would be simply the internet....Or could we say "the Information Age". I can give many examples of why I think this is. One of them is not CSA, but simply the awareness that CSA exist. CSA was much more prevalent amongst F&W 30 - 40 years ago than it is today. This was a time when the fellowship was growing quite substantially. It is the "awareness" factor that have really caused many to leave. The majority that choose to stay are pretty much of the mind that they don't want to know many things. My wife is one of them. She doesn't want to know many of the negatives within our fellowship...she says that it only discourages her. Our kids are different. They were raised digging out their own information from all sources available. They are not afraid of information, and being aware. They have been raised and taught to do this, and to use their own critical thinking. We have raised them NOT to believe something just because someone told them it was so....."Google" is a verb now. Kids "google" everything. "Information" This is why many are leaving. A good example of information causing people to leave is the Vietnamese mass exodus. There were many aspects to the troubles over there but on important aspect was the fact that they were taught that the workers and meetings went all the way back to Jesus. When they discovered the truth of the history on the TTT, they realized they had been deceived and that became a significant factor in leaving. Not much is hidden anymore. No matter how far under the radar the workers try to get, they can't get low enough anymore....mostly everything is open for examination. They need to review their doctrine and their activities to ensure that not only will they never be embarrassed to show the world, but they would be anxious for the whole world to see. We are a long way from that yet.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2014 13:50:36 GMT -5
A good example of information causing people to leave is the Vietnamese mass exodus. There were many aspects to the troubles over there but on important aspect was the fact that they were taught that the workers and meetings went all the way back to Jesus. When they discovered the truth of the history on the TTT, they realized they had been deceived and that became a significant factor in leaving. Not much is hidden anymore. No matter how far under the radar the workers try to get, they can't get low enough anymore....mostly everything is open for examination. They need to review their doctrine and their activities to ensure that not only will they never be embarrassed to show the world, but they would be anxious for the whole world to see. We are a long way from that yet. I think the key to turning around the current decline is that simple. People don't leave because they discover the truth so much as because they discover the lies.
|
|
|
Post by christiansburg on Apr 2, 2014 15:43:42 GMT -5
This is not unique to just the 2x2's. I have noticed that people of all Christian stripes are drifting. An article recently published in the New York Times in March 2014 stated that "Downsizing churches sell their assets."
Mentioned in the article were: The American Unitarian Association, The Unitarian Univeralist (new name for the former AUA), Jehovah's Witness, United Methodists, Reform Jewish, a number of Catholic Dioceses.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 16:01:07 GMT -5
I wonder if one of the major reasons for the decline of church attendance is Google. If you want to get the full range of Christian thought on any subject, you don't have to attend church and hope that the subject comes up in the liturgy and get one church's ideas on it. Just go to Google and you can get it all from every angle possible. If you can get all the Christian thought and solutions to things at your fingertips 24/7, then church attendance has to be justified for other reasons such as the social aspect.
At one time, assemblies were the best source of guidance and information so the advice of "forsake not the assembling together" was sound. Today, not so much and in fact, can be quite inadequate compared to the alternative of reading or listening to a variety of the best teachers in a short period of time. The "gathering together" just occurs in a different manner than the physical presence in a room.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 16:11:14 GMT -5
Quote - "As for young people drifting from the meetings I would say the main reasons would be easy acess of information, stifling traditions and higher, more widespread levels of education, but again that's just a guess"
To be honest you would need to put ALL churches in context. I sometimes attend a Greek Orthodox church during some family festivities. These days the church has to do fireworks or some such "entertainment" to keep the kids coming. That never used to be the case. Fast paced and contemporary entertainment is a requirement for a modern church as people in a TV age are bored easily by traditional liturgy. And church is simply irrelevant in a self-centered, rich and prosperous nation. And yes, education. Science has dealt a body blow to faith in Western societies.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2014 16:15:13 GMT -5
This is not unique to just the 2x2's. I have noticed that people of all Christian stripes are drifting. An article recently published in the New York Times in March 2014 stated that "Downsizing churches sell their assets." Mentioned in the article were: The American Unitarian Association, The Unitarian Univeralist (new name for the former AUA), Jehovah's Witness, United Methodists, Reform Jewish, a number of Catholic Dioceses. Thanks for this: www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/us/denominations-downsizing-and-selling-assets-in-more-secular-era.html?_r=0
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 16:30:42 GMT -5
One of the things to note that has not been mentioned is that there are VERY VERY few sycophants under the age of 25. When I was a kid, we were all sycophants. This will be very interesting how this affects the fellowship as a whole. Well, when I was a kid, I wasn't a sycophant. But I was definitely one of those "I might be sitting down, but I am standing up inside" sort of people. If there really are very few sycophants under age 25 in 2X2ism now, I say "Way to go, (baby boomer) parents. You did a good job." (From what I have personally observed, I might be inclined to agree.) I see this in other contexts. I am very close to some kids who were raised in the best RCC traditions. They have learned to think for themselves, and what they were taught as children seem like fairy tales to them now. To me, this is the evolution of humankind. Yes, it might be happening within 2X2ism, but it is really happening everywhere. (Thank goodness for Google.) This helps me to simply trust the process of life.
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 16:40:52 GMT -5
I see this in other contexts. I am very close to some kids who were raised in the best RCC traditions. They have learned to think for themselves, and what they were taught as children seem like fairy tales to them now. As an addendum to this (and I think I see things more clearly here than I do within 2X2ism - because there is no emotional charge for me), as I watch these kids question and grow, I see it, in turn, making changes in their parents. Now, how perfect a world is this?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 16:57:06 GMT -5
How is this world becoming "perfect" Sharon?
|
|