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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 16:59:23 GMT -5
Strange that some parents might "vote with their feet" in leaving thechurches due to CSA. And then happily expose those same children to an increasingly violent,adulterous and drug addled culture. I left 2X2ism, after many years of struggle and of soul-searching. I left because of what I perceived as a lack of kindness and compassion, and the effects of loyalty to a system, rather than to the fruit of the spirit (which I have a great deal of respect for). Let me be very clear. If I had the slightest inkling of the extent of CSA or of other forms of wrong-doing within 2X2ism, I couldn't have been out the door fast enough. There would have been no struggle. None.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 17:00:43 GMT -5
How is this world becoming "perfect" Sharon? It's not "becoming" perfect, it's already perfect. (Ya gotta believe it to see it.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 17:02:44 GMT -5
Perfect to you, or perfect to God?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 17:05:08 GMT -5
This is not unique to just the 2x2's. I have noticed that people of all Christian stripes are drifting. An article recently published in the New York Times in March 2014 stated that "Downsizing churches sell their assets." Mentioned in the article were: The American Unitarian Association, The Unitarian Univeralist (new name for the former AUA), Jehovah's Witness, United Methodists, Reform Jewish, a number of Catholic Dioceses. Thanks for this: www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/us/denominations-downsizing-and-selling-assets-in-more-secular-era.html?_r=0It is interesting to read about the mainline, generally liberal denominations downsizing while in my neck of the woods, the conservative, bible focused churches who meet in the commercial/industrial part of town are growing beyond the capacity of the space they rent or own. The largest one in the industrial section of town has an average weekly attendance of just over 5,000(per their published financial report)--one block down from our fellowship meeting of 10. That's up about 1000 over 2012 attendance if I remember correctly. My Mom keeps asking me 'how are they doing that?' and she looks puzzled when I answer with 'they preach the Bible clearly.' I live in somewhat of a Bible belt--multiple conservative seminaries and universities within no more than a 1.5 hr drive--so my statistics are likely only relevant for right here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 17:07:01 GMT -5
I wonder if one of the major reasons for the decline of church attendance is Google. If you want to get the full range of Christian thought on any subject, you don't have to attend church and hope that the subject comes up in the liturgy and get one church's ideas on it. Just go to Google and you can get it all from every angle possible. If you can get all the Christian thought and solutions to things at your fingertips 24/7, then church attendance has to be justified for other reasons such as the social aspect. At one time, assemblies were the best source of guidance and information so the advice of "forsake not the assembling together" was sound. Today, not so much and in fact, can be quite inadequate compared to the alternative of reading or listening to a variety of the best teachers in a short period of time. The "gathering together" just occurs in a different manner than the physical presence in a room. It is amazing what you can find that's good. I was sick Sunday and so listened in to a live sermon from a distant church.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 17:09:28 GMT -5
Perfect to you, or perfect to God? Oh, without question, both. Of the "two" of us, I am the only one who sometimes fails to see it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 17:18:38 GMT -5
So a world of increasing family breakdown, drug abuse, violence, falling church attendance, suicide, contempt of authority, sexualizing of children, welfare dependency, disrespect, alienation, hate and the like - on a level never seen in history, is fine with God?
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 17:23:13 GMT -5
So a world of increasing family breakdown, drug abuse, violence, falling church attendance, suicide, contempt of authority, sexualizing of children, welfare dependency, disrespect, alienation, hate and the like - on a level never seen in history, is fine with God? This may be the world you see, Bert. It is not the one I see. I see a world of increasing consciousness, of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness. (Maybe you should give up your TV and go out and commune more with nature. Or volunteer with a soup kitchen, or Home Care, or something similar.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 17:25:52 GMT -5
So a world of increasing family breakdown, drug abuse, violence, falling church attendance, suicide, contempt of authority, sexualizing of children, welfare dependency, disrespect, alienation, hate and the like - on a level never seen in history, is fine with God? This may be the world you see, Bert. It is not the one I see. I see a world of increasing consciousness, of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness. (Maybe you should give up your TV and go out and commune more with nature. Or volunteer with a soup kitchen, or Home Care, or something similar.) or maybe even Home Depot
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 17:28:20 GMT -5
This may be the world you see, Bert. It is not the one I see. I see a world of increasing consciousness, of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness. (Maybe you should give up your TV and go out and commune more with nature. Or volunteer with a soup kitchen, or Home Care, or something similar.) or maybe even Home Depot That too. There is also redemption there.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 17:43:33 GMT -5
I have done most of those things Sharon, even the soup kitchen. But I am bothered when people are not bothered by what happens in the world around them. These social indicators are REAL, they are FACTUAL, and often, they are DENIED. I commend you for that. Soup kitchens, Home Care, etc... are not always easy places to be. (But they can also be most rewarding.) There's a lot of positive social indicators too (I know Clearday has addressed these in the past.) Clearday? (Don't make me look this up. ) I do not see the stuff you allude to, either within myself or within the people I come into contact with in a day-to-day basis, or even a year-over-year basis. THAT is what I can speak to. You???
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:11:21 GMT -5
I have done most of those things Sharon, even the soup kitchen. But I am bothered when people are not bothered by what happens in the world around them. These social indicators are REAL, they are FACTUAL, and often, they are DENIED. I commend you for that. Soup kitchens, Home Care, etc... are not always easy places to be. (But they can also be most rewarding.) There's a lot of positive social indicators too (I know Clearday has addressed these in the past.) Clearday? (Don't make me look this up. ) I do not see the stuff you allude to, either within myself or within the people I come into contact with in a day-to-day basis, or even a year-over-year basis. THAT is what I can speak to. You??? I have done a list on this a couple of times and by most metrics, your view is correct. The world has never been a better place to live today than possibly at any time in history. How about we sum it up with an image in Chicago in 1948 of a scene that was not unique and would not be seen today.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:18:16 GMT -5
Just the change in television alone over past generations is startling.
I am badly repeating myself here, but...
Ever see "I Dream of Jeannie"?
Let's hear it from Wikipedia, "Censors allowed her (Genie) to be depicted living in a house with an unmarried man (because early episodes made it plain that she slept in her bottle) but would not permit Eden's navel to be seen."
Try to imagine that now.
Quick visit to Two and a Half Men: Charlie is drunk and singing "I love boobies" to children. Later scene - a girl calls out "Charlie!" from his bedroom and he replies, "Who is it?" "Boobies!" the girl shouts. Charlie attends to her in a shot. Audience laughs.
And here we have Charlie Sheen talking to his penis in a supermarket, arguing over whether he should go chase some woman, or do the shopping. The penis wins, and everyone on prime time TV laughs.
None of this stuff offends anymore because we have been accustomed to it. Here are some more thing which we have gotten used to.
50% increase in shoplifting from 2008 to 2010. Australia Retail Assoc.. 30% increase in sexual activity and drinking for year 12 girls since 2002. (Australian Research Centre for Sex, Health and Society.) 50% of parents polled don’t monitor what their children watch on TV, up from 20% just 15 years earlier. Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth, Dec 7th 2011 Nearly 1 in 5 American women claim to have been sexually assaulted, and 1 in 7 men. National Institute of Justice and the Department of Defense survey 2010/2011 27% increase in violence in Victorian school in 3 years, with 57% of teachers threatened or faced aggressive language. Galaxy Survey Jan 2012. 40% increase in domestic violence reported in Victoria in 5 years (1996-2012) Victorian Police report Feb 2012. UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (CCRC) 2009. Three out of five children were exposed to violence, abuse or a criminal victimization in the last year, including 46 percent who had been physically assaulted, 10 percent who had been maltreated by a caregiver, 6 percent who had been sexually victimized, and 10 percent who had witnessed an assault within their family. Drug addicted babies tripled in ten years. 2012 Journal American Medical Assoc.. Juvenile male assaults more than doubled in ten years (1527 in 2000-2001 to 3776 in 2009-2010) Vic Children Court stats. 25% increase in assaults against paramedics, police and firefighters in four years. 2012 Victorian Police stats.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 18:22:32 GMT -5
I have done a list on this a couple of times and by most metrics, your view is correct. The world has never been a better place to live today than possibly at any time in history. How about we sum it up with an image in Chicago in 1948 of a scene that was not unique and would not be seen today. Awwww... I would buy them all in a second!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:22:46 GMT -5
One more thing - pointing out the poverty of previous generations, or lack of contraception, or disease etc. misses the point we should be making.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:29:40 GMT -5
One more thing - pointing out the poverty of previous generations, or lack of contraception, or disease etc. misses the point we should be making. No it doesn't. The reduction in poverty and disease is not happenstance or just good luck. These are all indicators of a more orderly, clean society. This is what one of those kids, now about 70 years old said about her birth mother: "Then she shared her opinion of her birth mother. "She needs to be in hell," she wrote, "burning." "
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 18:30:10 GMT -5
None of this stuff offends anymore because we have been accustomed to it. Correction: None of this offends, because we don't watch it. (For the most part.) (Okay, I'll admit that I have watched a few episodes Two and Half Men, after Charlie Sheen's nationwide tour hit the media. What I see is people who really care about each other, no matter how unconventional their lifestyles might be.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:30:51 GMT -5
I have done a list on this a couple of times and by most metrics, your view is correct. The world has never been a better place to live today than possibly at any time in history. How about we sum it up with an image in Chicago in 1948 of a scene that was not unique and would not be seen today. Awwww... I would buy them all in a second! Apparently, one went for $2 to pay for the mother's bingo.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:31:11 GMT -5
startling statistics...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:35:51 GMT -5
One more thing - pointing out the poverty of previous generations, or lack of contraception, or disease etc. misses the point we should be making. No it doesn't. The reduction in poverty and disease is not happenstance or just good luck. These are all indicators of a more orderly, clean society. This is what one of those kids, now about 70 years old said about her birth mother: "Then she shared her opinion of her birth mother. "She needs to be in hell," she wrote, "burning." " Nowadays we would simply abort these kids. It's a better world? The metric we should be refering to here are those relating to are the ones pertaining to God. None of those in your post make us "better people" just "better off people."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:35:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't swallow every Chicken Little story too quickly. Here is one for you and there are lots more.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:39:46 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:40:59 GMT -5
I thought these "the world is getting worse" metrics through, too. You can have people behaving worse yet see metrics for gun deaths, for instance, falling. All sorts of factors play out at once - not just moral ones. ie fewer kids - fewer crimes abortions - leading to fewer unwanted kids better policing better trauma treatment etc..
And we have fewer wars than in most times in history, too.
So chosing the relevant metrics is crucial.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:45:49 GMT -5
even with its downward trend the numbers seem very high for violence...
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Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2014 18:51:34 GMT -5
So a world of increasing family breakdown, drug abuse, violence, falling church attendance, suicide, contempt of authority, sexualizing of children, welfare dependency, disrespect, alienation, hate and the like - on a level never seen in history, is fine with God? Contempt for authority can be a good thing. One advantage is that it makes it harder for authority figures to sexually abuse children.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 2, 2014 18:54:19 GMT -5
I thought these "the world is getting worse" metrics through, too. You can have people behaving worse yet see metrics for gun deaths, for instance, falling. All sorts of factors play out at once - not just moral ones. ie fewer kids - fewer crimes abortions - leading to fewer unwanted kids better policing better trauma treatment etc.. And we have fewer wars than in most times in history, too. So chosing the relevant metrics is crucial. Yeah, and choosing the things that you put your attention on is also crucial - to both your experience and quality of life. To put it in a Biblical context: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Have you read "Freakonomics"? (It strikes me that you might be the kind of guy who finds this kind of thing interesting.) It's been a while since I read it, but I believe there is a chapter there on Roe vs Wade that certainly provides some food for thought.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:55:46 GMT -5
even with its downward trend the numbers seem very high for violence... Sure it's high. It would be great if those numbers were all zero. The discussion here is whether things are getting better or worse. The crime stats are overwhelmingly indicating that it's getting better, particularly considering the rise in population while the actual crimes are declining significantly.
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Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2014 18:58:12 GMT -5
So a world of increasing family breakdown, drug abuse, violence, falling church attendance, suicide, contempt of authority, sexualizing of children, welfare dependency, disrespect, alienation, hate and the like - on a level never seen in history, is fine with God? Contempt for authority can be a good thing. One advantage is that it makes it harder for authority figures to sexually abuse children. What do you think about the falling suicide rate Bert? STANDARDISED DEATH RATE (per 100,000 people) FROM SUICIDE 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Males 20.3 18.8 17.7 16.8 16.5 15.8 13.9 17.2 16 16.4 Females 5.3 5 4.7 4.3 4.3 4.7 4 4.7 4.8 4.8 Source: ABS Causes of Death, Australia (cat. no. 3303.0).
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