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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 17:51:52 GMT -5
Were they written by the Saints and Servants? Or by outsiders? What do you think?hmmm
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 17:53:38 GMT -5
some were definitly written by outsiders...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 19:20:07 GMT -5
The oldest ones were written by outsiders. Jesus the very thought of thee goes back to the middle ages. A monk wrote that hymn.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 19:45:41 GMT -5
Fact:No hymn written by a friend or worker goes back before 1900. Unless they want to consider King David and hymns based on a psalm. Some hymns written by outsiders goes back to 1800s and even 1700s. Jesus the very thought of thee goes back to the 1200s, I believe.
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Post by stevnz on Mar 22, 2014 6:02:21 GMT -5
Hymn #13 was written by Cistercian Catholic Bernard of Clairvaux 1091-1153: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_of_Clairvaux French abbot and the primary builder of the reforming Cistercian order. Bernard played the leading role in the development of the cult of the Virgin, which was one of the most important manifestations of the popular piety of the twelfth century. In early medieval thought, the Virgin Mary had played a minor role, and it was only with the rise of emotional Christianity in the eleventh century that she was considered by Catholics as the prime intercessor for humanity with the deity. Bernard was sent from the community of reformed Benedictines at Cîteaux with a band of twelve monks to found a new house at Vallée d'Absinthe, in the Diocese of Langres. He named this Claire Vallée, or Clairvaux, on 25 June 1115. Following the Christian defeat at the Siege of Edessa, the pope commissioned Bernard to preach the Second Crusade. The last years of Bernard's life were saddened by the failure of the crusaders, the entire responsibility for which was thrown upon him. Bernard died after forty years spent in the cloister. He was buried at the Clairvaux Abbey, but after its dissolution in 1792 by the French revolutionary government, his remains were transferred to the Troyes Cathedral. He was canonized by Pope Alexander III in 1174. Hymn #13 was translated by Edward Caswell (1814-1878), England.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 7:29:12 GMT -5
"When I survey the wondrous Cross" was written by Isaac Watts (1674 - 1748), a one-time Congregational minister. This is one of the finest hymns in the English language imho. Watts is sometimes referred to as the "Father of English Hymnody".
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Post by jj on Mar 22, 2014 7:31:00 GMT -5
'When I survey' was published in 1707. Many of the tunes used are also found in other old church hymn books, namely the Methodist hymn book. The tune 'Aurelia' (Nos. 28, 27 etc) is one example of many. The English folk tune 'Stella' is the tune used for 'There is no gain' There are also many hymns that have been shortened/edited as well. 'Abide with me' has an extra verse, as does 'When I survey'. 'Was there e'er so kind a shepherd' has half of its verses missing. One of these verses is particularly beautiful But we make His love too narrow, By false limits of our own. And we magnify His strictness, With a zeal He will not own. By Frederick W Faber Here is a link to the rest www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/o/soulsmen.htmThere are two different arrangements
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 7:39:03 GMT -5
A hymn I loved in our old book was "O love that will not let me go" written by an "outsider". Why was that deleted? Even in our old book, I think the version we sang had at least one verse deleted.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 7:45:19 GMT -5
'When I survey' was published in 1707. Many of the tunes used are also found in other old church hymn books, namely the Methodist hymn book. The tune 'Aurelia' (Nos. 28, 27 etc) is one example of many. The English folk tune 'Stella' is the tune used for 'There is no gain' There are also many hymns that have been shortened/edited as well. 'Abide with me' has an extra verse, as does 'When I survey'. 'Was there e'er so kind a shepherd' has half of its verses missing. One of these verses is particularly beautiful But we make His love too narrow, By false limits of our own. And we magnify His strictness, With a zeal He will not own. By Frederick W Faber Here is a link to the rest www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/o/soulsmen.htmThere are two different arrangements The missing verse to "Was there e'er so kind a shepherd" quoted above is rather wonderful. But it is no surprise to me that it is not contained in our book!
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Post by What Hat on Mar 22, 2014 10:32:09 GMT -5
I suppose the oldest hymn in "Hymns Old And New" would be "The Lord is My Shepherd" from about 1000 BC, with an updated melody (two of them, actually).
When it comes to hymns in any church; they don't go back all that far. There really are no hymns before about 1750. For one thing, four part harmony as we know it today is a relatively recent invention in human history. But also most churches centuries ago, permitted only singing of psalms and a few other texts. For example, the Catholics have had a standard text in Latin for requiems, and special feast days. The Catholic history could be looked up for more detail, but my main point is that the oldest hymns, in EVERY church, are the psalms. The Psalter-Hymnal we sang from in the Reformed church featured settings for the individual Psalms in order for the first half of the book, probably 250 or so of such songs based on Psalms. Then the last half of the book consisted of hymns like "How Great Thou Art", "When Peace Like A River", "Beautiful Saviour", "This is My Father's World", "When I Survey", "Abide With Me" and so on. And that was only 50 years ago. I don't think their current hymn book is arranged like that, but I'm not sure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 14:37:13 GMT -5
The fact that no hymn was written by a worker/friend before 1900 proves the fellowship doesn't "trace back" to the New Testament days. The worldly hymns are older.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 14:42:06 GMT -5
The fact that no hymn was written by a worker/friend before 1900 proves the fellowship doesn't "trace back" to the New Testament days. The worldly hymns are older. have ya read nathans write up on irvines sister yet? very plausible...
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Post by snow on Mar 22, 2014 14:58:22 GMT -5
The fact that no hymn was written by a worker/friend before 1900 proves the fellowship doesn't "trace back" to the New Testament days. The worldly hymns are older. have ya read nathans write up on irvines sister yet? very plausible... No, not really.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 16:30:06 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Mar 22, 2014 16:45:34 GMT -5
The Waldensian still exist. The Cathars were similar to the 2x2's also, but that doesn't mean anyone originated from them either. I did the research on this about 10 years ago and there is no group that is exactly the same at all.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 22, 2014 18:04:18 GMT -5
We could drive ourselves plumb crazy if we were to hunt all of the religious groups who believed in sending messengers out by two....this was the oldest form of sending messages out. Why? Number one, safety for the messengers and number two, the message would bear truth being spoken by 2 or more witnesses. It isn't a requirement to tell the gospel story, but it helps when faced with adversity or non-believers! But mostly it is just an accepted practice from days of old long before the 2x2 religion of truthers every became in the early 1900's.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 22, 2014 20:10:51 GMT -5
We could drive ourselves plumb crazy if we were to hunt all of the religious groups who believed in sending messengers out by two....this was the oldest form of sending messages out. Why? Number one, safety for the messengers and number two, the message would bear truth being spoken by 2 or more witnesses. It isn't a requirement to tell the gospel story, but it helps when faced with adversity or non-believers! But mostly it is just an accepted practice from days of old long before the 2x2 religion of truthers every became in the early 1900's. No need to make a case for preachers going in pairs or three . We can find many examples long b4 2x2's. It also a way to keep each other accountable. Unfortunatly accountable to a system and not scripture in this latter day application. I find no fault in preachers male or female going out 2x2. Lot of scriptual justification. ken
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 23, 2014 2:08:52 GMT -5
One of the most prolific hymnwriters was Charles Wesley who with his brother John was the founder of Methodism. As far as I know there are no Wesley hymns in Hymns Old and New.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 7:20:36 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 23, 2014 10:17:13 GMT -5
It is really sad that MT and XH's efforts along with uncle Chau to do the VN translation of the hymnbook 2x2's have in the US couldn't have been turned over to the Allan Co. for printing! They have done so much for themselves that it isn't even funny! And all of that money that keeps the overseers so powerful could have released a minute amount for the printing of those VN hymnbooks! JMO
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Post by Gene on Mar 23, 2014 18:32:52 GMT -5
The fact that no hymn was written by a worker/friend before 1900 proves the fellowship doesn't "trace back" to the New Testament days. The worldly hymns are older. It proves nothing of the kind. Come on, Walker -- you're more logical than this post would indicate!
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 23, 2014 19:16:03 GMT -5
The fact that no hymn was written by a worker/friend before 1900 proves the fellowship doesn't "trace back" to the New Testament days. The worldly hymns are older. have ya read nathans write up on irvines sister yet? very plausible... wally - after you read this article on TTT about Wm Irvine's sister, please tell us how you see Nathan's write up as being "plausible"? Where Did Irvine Get the Idea to Start the 2x2 Ministry? Who Did William Irvine hear from?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 19:40:10 GMT -5
Many of the worldly hymn writers in Old and New died before the first workers left the British Isles for other countries.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 20:32:43 GMT -5
still plausible even with all the extra questions about switzerland...
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 23, 2014 21:36:25 GMT -5
still plausible even with all the extra questions about switzerland... My question is HOW do YOU see it as being plausible? Or did you mean "possible"? Have you also read this thread? professing.proboards.com/thread/21701/Wally, how long have you been professing? Are you B&R? or a Latecomer?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 22:02:01 GMT -5
i've been in the truth since i was 14...so about 34 years
possible is a better word thanks....
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Post by stevnz on Mar 23, 2014 23:15:59 GMT -5
I suppose the oldest hymn in "Hymns Old And New" would be "The Lord is My Shepherd" from about 1000 BC, with an updated melody (two of them, actually). When it comes to hymns in any church; they don't go back all that far. There really are no hymns before about 1750. For one thing, four part harmony as we know it today is a relatively recent invention in human history. But also most churches centuries ago, permitted only singing of psalms and a few other texts. For example, the Catholics have had a standard text in Latin for requiems, and special feast days. The Catholic history could be looked up for more detail, but my main point is that the oldest hymns, in EVERY church, are the psalms. The Psalter-Hymnal we sang from in the Reformed church featured settings for the individual Psalms in order for the first half of the book, probably 250 or so of such songs based on Psalms. Then the last half of the book consisted of hymns like "How Great Thou Art", "When Peace Like A River", "Beautiful Saviour", "This is My Father's World", "When I Survey", "Abide With Me" and so on. And that was only 50 years ago. I don't think their current hymn book is arranged like that, but I'm not sure. There is a bit more about history of hymns at sites.google.com/site/hymnsoldandnew/home/history
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Post by What Hat on Mar 24, 2014 8:54:16 GMT -5
We could drive ourselves plumb crazy if we were to hunt all of the religious groups who believed in sending messengers out by two....this was the oldest form of sending messages out. Why? Number one, safety for the messengers and number two, the message would bear truth being spoken by 2 or more witnesses. It isn't a requirement to tell the gospel story, but it helps when faced with adversity or non-believers! But mostly it is just an accepted practice from days of old long before the 2x2 religion of truthers every became in the early 1900's. No need to make a case for preachers going in pairs or three . We can find many examples long b4 2x2's. It also a way to keep each other accountable. Unfortunatly accountable to a system and not scripture in this latter day application. I find no fault in preachers male or female going out 2x2. Lot of scriptual justification. ken The two by two method of preaching, like most features of the two by two movement, was "borrowed" from missionary and itinerant preacher practices in the UK, and from the Faith Mission. I don't believe there is anything original about the 2x2 movement other than the idea of the Spirit being captive to their preaching.
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