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Post by slowtosee on Mar 24, 2014 13:52:52 GMT -5
Nathan, although you might be one of a VERY few 2x2's that consider the Waldenses as your "forefathers", there are quite a few other denominations that have ALSO claimed the same. For sure, I don't know of any of the numerous "protestant" churches, including yours, Nathan , that still adhere to their beliefs, such as wearing sandals etc. , and admittedly, they themselves have also changed a lot to this present day. Curious if you consider yourself , a Waldensian, also, Nathan? Is there a Waldensian church close to where you live? I have not been to one of their services. How does it differ or similar to the 2x2 meetings you have gone to in the past? When did the 2x2's split from the Waldensian's ? Did William Irvin recognize or acknowledge Peter Waldo's founding of a church group? It seems like Waldo had some good ideas too and was against visible "corruption" he saw in the Cathlic church, which he was a part of for a while? Do the Waldensian's also have a certain dress code from a previous era? so many questions...... Alvin
. The present Waldensian Church considers itself to be a Christian Protestant church of the Reformed tradition originally framed by Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin.[4] It recognizes as its doctrinal standard the confession of faith published in 1655 and based on the Reformed confession of 1559.
The early Waldensians were divided into three types of activity: Sandaliati (namely, those with sandals), who received sacred orders and were to prove the heresiarchs wrong; Doctores, who instructed and trained missionaries; and Novellani, who preached to the general population.[8] They were also called Insabbatati, Sabati, Inzabbatati Sabotiers due to the unusual type of sabot they used as footwear.[9][10][11]
Much of what is known about the early Waldensians comes from reports like the Profession of faith of Valdo of Lyon (1180); Durando d'Osca Liber antiheresis (1187–1200 ca.); and the Rescriptum of Bergamo Conference(1218). Other earlier documents also attest the Waldensian history, such as the Will of Stefano d'Anse(1187); the Manifestatio haeresis Albigensium et Lugdunensium (1206–08 ca.); the Anonymous chronicle of Laon(1220 ca.). Another source is Reinerius Saccho (died 1259), a former Cathar who converted to Catholicism and wrote two reports for the Inquisition, Summa de Catharis et Pauperibus de Lugduno-- "On the Cathars and the Poor of Lyons" (1254)[12]
Some early Protestants felt a spiritual kinship to the Waldensians and wrote positively about the Waldensians. John Milton, for example, wrote his "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont" to depict the massacre and persecution of the Waldensians.
Some Anabaptists and Baptists authors have pointed to the Waldensians as an example of earlier Christians who were not a part of the Roman Catholic Church, and held beliefs they interpreted to be similar to their own. In the 17th–19th centuries, Dutch and German Mennonites writers like van Braght (Martyrs Mirror- 1660)[13] and S. B. ten Cate (Geschiedkundig Onderzock) linked Anabaptist origins to the Waldensians. Baptist authors like John L. Waller also linked their origins to the Waldensians.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20]
James Aitken Wylie (1808–1890) likewise believed the Waldensians preserved the apostolic faith during the Middle Ages.[21] Still later, Seventh-day Adventist Ellen G. White taught that the Waldenses were preservers of biblical truth during the Great Apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.[22] She believed that the Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath, engaged in widespread missionary activity, and "planted the seeds of the Reformation" in Europe.[23][24]
Scholar Michael W. Homer links the belief in an ancient origin to the Waldensians to three 17th century pastors, Jean-Paul Perrin of the Reformed Church of France and the Waldensian pastors Pierre Gilles and Jean Léger, who posited that the Waldensians were descendents of Primitive Christianity.[25]
Some authors [26][27] try to date a Reformation-era Waldensian confession of faith back into the Middle Ages in 1120 to assert their claim of doctrinal antiquity.[28] However, it is undisputable in the current historiography from Waldensians themselves that this confession was drafted in 1531.[29][30]
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:46:59 GMT -5
www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/j/i/l/jillgoth.htmI have made my choice forever. I thought this hymn was written about standing up in a meeting and making your choice. Now I know the author DIED 2 years BEFORE Wm. Irvine got his revelation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:48:14 GMT -5
When the conflict here is ended, and the weary journey done; When the last grim foe is conquered, and the final victory won; When the pearly gates swing open, and an entrance full and free Shall be granted to the victors, Jesus, I’ll go through with Thee. **** Why did this verse get chopped off?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 24, 2014 15:28:39 GMT -5
Many of the worldly hymn writers in Old and New died before the first workers left the British Isles for other countries. I was amidst a number of workers gathered at a large house for a group dinner before they dispersed to the different areas of 2 states for special mtgs. I listened to some of them speaking about Fanny Crosby and saying that they knew that if she hadn't been blind she would have searched for the workers! I thought "Say what?" As talented as that lady was she wouldn't have had to NOT be blind, she'd found them IF THEY were anywhere within her area, that is if she'd been moved by the Holy Spirit to do so!! That was before I knew that the 2x2's hadn't started until the late 1890's.....Fanny had died in 1820, I think it says! Go figure....they were so enthralled with her hymn composing they just knew she'd been a 2x2 if she hadn't been blind and so helpless! Sheesh!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 24, 2014 15:31:12 GMT -5
No need to make a case for preachers going in pairs or three . We can find many examples long b4 2x2's. It also a way to keep each other accountable. Unfortunatly accountable to a system and not scripture in this latter day application. I find no fault in preachers male or female going out 2x2. Lot of scriptual justification. ken The two by two method of preaching, like most features of the two by two movement, was "borrowed" from missionary and itinerant preacher practices in the UK, and from the Faith Mission. I don't believe there is anything original about the 2x2 movement other than the idea of the Spirit being captive to their preaching. "The Spirit being captive to their preaching?" Isn't that something that should have told us from day one, that this religion was all about men's commandments made doctrine? What big-headedness they seem to have....it is NO wonder that they are so unreachable in this era! They have built their own tower to heaven...so it seems!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 24, 2014 15:55:06 GMT -5
Nathan, although you might be one of a VERY few 2x2's that consider the Waldenses as your "forefathers", there are quite a few other denominations that have ALSO claimed the same. For sure, I don't know of any of the numerous "protestant" churches, including yours, Nathan , that still adhere to their beliefs, such as wearing sandals etc. , and admittedly, they themselves have also changed a lot to this present day. Curious if you consider yourself , a Waldensian, also, Nathan? Is there a Waldensian church close to where you live? I have not been to one of their services. How does it differ or similar to the 2x2 meetings you have gone to in the past? When did the 2x2's split from the Waldensian's ? Did William Irvin recognize or acknowledge Peter Waldo's founding of a church group? It seems like Waldo had some good ideas too and was against visible "corruption" he saw in the Cathlic church, which he was a part of for a while? Do the Waldensian's also have a certain dress code from a previous era? so many questions...... Alvin . The present Waldensian Church considers itself to be a Christian Protestant church of the Reformed tradition originally framed by Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin.[4] It recognizes as its doctrinal standard the confession of faith published in 1655 and based on the Reformed confession of 1559. The early Waldensians were divided into three types of activity: Sandaliati (namely, those with sandals), who received sacred orders and were to prove the heresiarchs wrong; Doctores, who instructed and trained missionaries; and Novellani, who preached to the general population.[8] They were also called Insabbatati, Sabati, Inzabbatati Sabotiers due to the unusual type of sabot they used as footwear.[9][10][11] Much of what is known about the early Waldensians comes from reports like the Profession of faith of Valdo of Lyon (1180); Durando d'Osca Liber antiheresis (1187–1200 ca.); and the Rescriptum of Bergamo Conference(1218). Other earlier documents also attest the Waldensian history, such as the Will of Stefano d'Anse(1187); the Manifestatio haeresis Albigensium et Lugdunensium (1206–08 ca.); the Anonymous chronicle of Laon(1220 ca.). Another source is Reinerius Saccho (died 1259), a former Cathar who converted to Catholicism and wrote two reports for the Inquisition, Summa de Catharis et Pauperibus de Lugduno-- "On the Cathars and the Poor of Lyons" (1254)[12] Some early Protestants felt a spiritual kinship to the Waldensians and wrote positively about the Waldensians. John Milton, for example, wrote his "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont" to depict the massacre and persecution of the Waldensians. Some Anabaptists and Baptists authors have pointed to the Waldensians as an example of earlier Christians who were not a part of the Roman Catholic Church, and held beliefs they interpreted to be similar to their own. In the 17th–19th centuries, Dutch and German Mennonites writers like van Braght (Martyrs Mirror- 1660)[13] and S. B. ten Cate (Geschiedkundig Onderzock) linked Anabaptist origins to the Waldensians. Baptist authors like John L. Waller also linked their origins to the Waldensians.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20] James Aitken Wylie (1808–1890) likewise believed the Waldensians preserved the apostolic faith during the Middle Ages.[21] Still later, Seventh-day Adventist Ellen G. White taught that the Waldenses were preservers of biblical truth during the Great Apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.[22] She believed that the Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath, engaged in widespread missionary activity, and "planted the seeds of the Reformation" in Europe.[23][24] Scholar Michael W. Homer links the belief in an ancient origin to the Waldensians to three 17th century pastors, Jean-Paul Perrin of the Reformed Church of France and the Waldensian pastors Pierre Gilles and Jean Léger, who posited that the Waldensians were descendents of Primitive Christianity.[25] Some authors [26][27] try to date a Reformation-era Waldensian confession of faith back into the Middle Ages in 1120 to assert their claim of doctrinal antiquity.[28] However, it is undisputable in the current historiography from Waldensians themselves that this confession was drafted in 1531.[29][30] Some pretty important "tips" from the formation of the "first" church........this little bit of information is eye-awakening! "Revelation 2:6-- Jesus said---But this you have---you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans----which I also hate. Nicolaitans is a compound word that means "conquerors of the laity"---"overcomers of the people"---the POWERGRABBERS! How were these bishops and popes "powergrabbers"? They declared that " You can't come to Christ without us and our ceremonies! You must belong to us and be subject to us!" www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com/articles/44-about-the-church/97-waldensians-the-true-history-of-the-christian-church-Seems the Nicolaitans are alive and well, eh? Even in the 2x2's!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 19:02:44 GMT -5
If a main convention speaker admitted upfront that the "truth" began in Ireland 1890s, I doubt many of the friends would recognize what was spoken. They are so into being right and everyone else being wrong, that nothing said or done would change their thinking.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 24, 2014 21:57:40 GMT -5
Do you also understand that the Waldensians played a role in the history of 2x2 church, as relayed by Nathan? Did the workers ever mention a connection with any other group, before 1897 in their openness about the beginning of the 2x2 group? Alvin
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Post by Gene on Mar 25, 2014 9:08:57 GMT -5
When the conflict here is ended, and the weary journey done; When the last grim foe is conquered, and the final victory won; When the pearly gates swing open, and an entrance full and free Shall be granted to the victors, Jesus, I’ll go through with Thee. **** Why did this verse get chopped off? Just a guess: Someone didn't like the word "Free" because salvation requires that sinners work at it. You know, dying to self, taking up their cross daily, etc.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 25, 2014 10:23:43 GMT -5
When the conflict here is ended, and the weary journey done; When the last grim foe is conquered, and the final victory won; When the pearly gates swing open, and an entrance full and free Shall be granted to the victors, Jesus, I’ll go through with Thee. **** Why did this verse get chopped off? Just a guess: Someone didn't like the word "Free" because salvation requires that sinners work at it. You know, dying to self, taking up their cross daily, etc. Something I learned on a recent trip to Las Vegas. When someone advertises "free", run for cover. I would commend the friends for 'truth in advertising' if they dropped that hymn for the reason you said.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 25, 2014 10:32:06 GMT -5
Do you also understand that the Waldensians played a role in the history of 2x2 church, as relayed by Nathan? Did the workers ever mention a connection with any other group, before 1897 in their openness about the beginning of the 2x2 group? Alvin I think you will find throughout history that there is a connected link between certain groups, at least since 500 AD. The connected link is this, "what the Bible actually says". The established church, or much of it, arguably got away from Jesus teaching and the Bible at the Council of Nicene, and various attempts have been made throughout history to get back on track. So, it's not surprising that one would find some commonality of ideas among those attempts. My own spiritual journey has tended to move away from the idea of being born again to acceptance of a canned package of beliefs, to a life process that is works-based. Not "saved by works", and not "saved by grace", but "works by grace".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 16:38:21 GMT -5
The first hymn book of the workers and friends was 100% outsider hymns. The "truth" wasn't around long enough to have hymn writers. I don't know when Sam Jones write his first hymn. Sam Jones, James Jardine and Kenneth Dissemore wrote more hymns than anyone else. Mary McGregor wrote more hymns than any sister workers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 16:55:27 GMT -5
When the conflict here is ended, and the weary journey done; When the last grim foe is conquered, and the final victory won; When the pearly gates swing open, and an entrance full and free Shall be granted to the victors, Jesus, I’ll go through with Thee. **** Why did this verse get chopped off? Just a guess: Someone didn't like the word "Free" because salvation requires that sinners work at it. You know, dying to self, taking up their cross daily, etc. My guess is that they didn't like the reference to the "pearly gates" swinging open. Too much imagery ...?
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Post by Gene on Mar 25, 2014 17:22:59 GMT -5
Just a guess: Someone didn't like the word "Free" because salvation requires that sinners work at it. You know, dying to self, taking up their cross daily, etc. My guess is that they didn't like the reference to the "pearly gates" swinging open. Too much imagery ...? Jewelry! Ack!
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 25, 2014 17:46:04 GMT -5
walker1903 I grew up with the overseer very honest about the early beginnings. ,I knew about it from childhood on. so, to me, it was never a secret because he told amazing stories of the friends in Ireland selling everything to give to the workers so they could board ships and sail abroad to new lands. thankfull. Did they tell you who started it? And when and how? Many of us knew about the workers going to other countries, etc. Rather like a revival. Eastern friends knew George Walker was one of the first came to come to America in 1903. Being told that doesnt mean we were told that it was only recently started in 1897 by Wm Irvine... HUGE difference.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 18:28:50 GMT -5
The reason I take the alias of "Walker 1903"! I think the workers were honest enough about when "truth" came to America, Australia, South Africa and other countries. They were evasive and at times just plain dishonest about when it was STARTED in the British Isles 1897-1901.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 19:02:46 GMT -5
Eastern US overseers have done a very poor job handling the "founder of the truth" issue.
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 12:27:41 GMT -5
Cherie ~ Thanks for clearing up the "mystery" about William Irvine's sister and the legend that followed.
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