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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 20, 2014 23:02:05 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Mar 20, 2014 23:15:15 GMT -5
I wonder if overseers will wake up one day and realise their CSA policy is found wanting? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2014 23:39:01 GMT -5
I think Chris Johnston is a fair reporter. It's obvious he is on the side of the victims but he does report the facts.
I would like to support Chris Chandler but there is much that prevents me from doing so. This is one example: "Chandler, a self-employed ecologist who recently returned from several years in Uruguay and Brazil, resigned from the sect in 2012. Yet he went to an overnight sect convention where children were present at Speed, near Mildura, and last year went to sect meetings at Crib Point near Hastings." What is the matter with Chris? What is the matter with whomever controls the Speed convention? Anyone facing charges for CSA should stay far from children. For heaven's sake, it's in the CSA Guidelines that Chris supported!
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Post by fixit on Mar 20, 2014 23:44:06 GMT -5
I think Chris Johnston is a fair reporter. It's obvious he is on the side of the victims but he does report the facts. I would like to support Chris Chandler but there is much that prevents me from doing so. This is one example: "Chandler, a self-employed ecologist who recently returned from several years in Uruguay and Brazil, resigned from the sect in 2012. Yet he went to an overnight sect convention where children were present at Speed, near Mildura, and last year went to sect meetings at Crib Point near Hastings." What is the matter with Chris? What is the matter with whomever controls the Speed convention? Anyone facing charges for CSA should stay far from children. For heaven's sake, it's in the CSA Guidelines that Chris supported! Did Chris actually stay on the convention grounds overnight? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 0:04:47 GMT -5
I think Chris Johnston is a fair reporter. It's obvious he is on the side of the victims but he does report the facts. I would like to support Chris Chandler but there is much that prevents me from doing so. This is one example: "Chandler, a self-employed ecologist who recently returned from several years in Uruguay and Brazil, resigned from the sect in 2012. Yet he went to an overnight sect convention where children were present at Speed, near Mildura, and last year went to sect meetings at Crib Point near Hastings." What is the matter with Chris? What is the matter with whomever controls the Speed convention? Anyone facing charges for CSA should stay far from children. For heaven's sake, it's in the CSA Guidelines that Chris supported! Did Chris actually stay on the convention grounds overnight? Irrelevant about the overnight aspect. If you have been charged with crimes against children or are under investigation for the same, you stay away from children. It's that simple. |
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Post by whyisitso on Mar 21, 2014 0:44:28 GMT -5
Mr Leitch is an embarrassment to the fellowship! How is he in the top job in VIC? After all that's happened he 'May or may not' report it?
This is why abuse education needs to start with the parents. To take these 'overseers' out of the equation altogether.
And 'we would not tolerate any matters that were not upright and in accordance with the scriptures...' This sounds like a quote from about 20 years ago, not recent. Have they learnt nothing??
I don't mean to sound harsh but this makes my blood boil.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 1:14:04 GMT -5
And to think that the NZ overseer found fault with one of his staff declaring publicly that the response from the Victorian workers was not adequate regarding csa. Amazing.
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Post by ellie on Mar 21, 2014 6:07:24 GMT -5
I think Chris Johnston is a fair reporter. It's obvious he is on the side of the victims but he does report the facts. I would like to support Chris Chandler but there is much that prevents me from doing so. This is one example: "Chandler, a self-employed ecologist who recently returned from several years in Uruguay and Brazil, resigned from the sect in 2012. Yet he went to an overnight sect convention where children were present at Speed, near Mildura, and last year went to sect meetings at Crib Point near Hastings." What is the matter with Chris? What is the matter with whomever controls the Speed convention? Anyone facing charges for CSA should stay far from children. For heaven's sake, it's in the CSA Guidelines that Chris supported! Gross negligence IMO. |
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Post by fixit on Mar 21, 2014 6:40:07 GMT -5
And to think that the NZ overseer found fault with one of his staff declaring publicly that the response from the Victorian workers was not adequate regarding csa. Amazing. Our resident TMB worker seemed to have a problem with Graham's message that day: Auckland, New Zealand friends haven't been used to special meetings being used as a forum for a NZ worker to bring his allegations against workers in another country. So understandably there were people who were perplexed...and disappointed with the afternoon meeting that day. I think Graham used great restraint. What he said "I feel that the response of the ministry has not been adequate" is surely an understatement. Here's the whole paragraph: |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 21, 2014 9:53:54 GMT -5
Mr Leitch is an embarrassment to the fellowship! How is he in the top job in VIC? After all that's happened he 'May or may not' report it? This is why abuse education needs to start with the parents. To take these 'overseers' out of the equation altogether. And 'we would not tolerate any matters that were not upright and in accordance with the scriptures...' This sounds like a quote from about 20 years ago, not recent. Have they learnt nothing?? I don't mean to sound harsh but this makes my blood boil. I know about blood boiling! The reporter laid it out without leaving room for doubt. This report needs to be sent and received in every home of the friends and every suitcase of the workers! There is NO excuse for Leitch having fired a worker just for bringing an allegation to him...he should have said "You must go to the authorities with you allegations. They are the only ones who candetermine the truth." No, he has to play bigshot boss and set things down in a different unreal direction! Chris Chandler's offenses were not while he was a 2x2 and of a young age himself.....though of course, he should have never offered himself to be a worker...but I suspect he knew that he would get his misdeeds covered up by his peers/overseers! I strongly suspect that this refusal to face the music is what will kill the fellowship.....the workership won't be killed but it may die out as the money that's apparently stowed away disappears and the young workers will leave permanently. |
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Post by jondough on Mar 21, 2014 13:56:20 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, is it something 100 percent of them will fight for the rest of their lives?
Please don't mistake this question for me thinking the risk of thinking they are cured or have moved beyond it is worth it. I'm just wondering if it's a possibility...and that maybe Chris Chandler was at this point.
Please understand the difference between what I'm referring to of no longer having to fight the temptation vs being successful in the fight.
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Post by faune on Mar 21, 2014 14:02:53 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, is it something 100 percent of them will fight for the rest of their lives? Please don't mistake this question for me thinking the risk of thinking they are cured or have moved beyond it is worth it. I'm just wondering if it's a possibility...and that maybe Chris Chandler was at this point. Please understand the difference between what I'm referring to of no longer having to fight the temptation vs being successful in the fight. Jondough ~ From medical articles on this subject of pedophilia, it seems doctors have tried to cure the urge by therapy and medication and voluntary castration within prisons before parole is even considered for chronic repeat offenders. However, as to anybody being actually "cured" from such a warped personality disorder, I believe it would be a real challenge to maintain, as this article brings out?
www.livescience.com/17519-treating-pedophiles-therapy-challenge.html
www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Expert-says-castration-no-cure-for-pedophilia-1913426.php
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Post by fixit on Mar 21, 2014 14:29:42 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, is it something 100 percent of them will fight for the rest of their lives? Please don't mistake this question for me thinking the risk of thinking they are cured or have moved beyond it is worth it. I'm just wondering if it's a possibility...and that maybe Chris Chandler was at this point. Please understand the difference between what I'm referring to of no longer having to fight the temptation vs being successful in the fight. Good question JD. I'd like to reword that slightly: Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, or should none of them be trusted unsupervised with children for the rest of their lives? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 14:34:38 GMT -5
there is no known cure that i am aware of...
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Post by fixit on Mar 21, 2014 14:36:40 GMT -5
Another question:
If folks in their teenage or pre-teen years are guilty of "kiddie experimentation" (amounting to sexual abuse of someone a few years younger) and regretted that behavior for the rest of their lives, are they in danger of re-offending?
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Post by jondough on Mar 21, 2014 14:39:23 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, is it something 100 percent of them will fight for the rest of their lives? Please don't mistake this question for me thinking the risk of thinking they are cured or have moved beyond it is worth it. I'm just wondering if it's a possibility...and that maybe Chris Chandler was at this point. Please understand the difference between what I'm referring to of no longer having to fight the temptation vs being successful in the fight. Good question JD. I'd like to reword that slightly: Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, or should none of them be trusted unsupervised with children for the rest of their lives?I know what you're getting at, and I agree with you except that I'm not even suggesting that they should be trusted even though there is a cure. The reason is, how does someone else know if they are in fact cured? So it wouldn't be an "or" question. The fact is, even though there may be a cure....they still would not be able to be trusted for this reason. I was just curious if anyone is able to move beyond the temptation of it, or if all of them have to fight it the rest of their lives. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 14:43:48 GMT -5
to my limited understanding its a life long struggle...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 14:57:23 GMT -5
It partly depends on whether or not the offender is a pedophile or not. Some offenders are "opportunistic" offenders who are not attracted to children in particular. This is pretty common with offenders of post-pubescent minors. For them, it's a matter of recognizing boundaries rather than needing a "cure".
For the true pedophiles, one particular pedophile offender I know was offered "chemical castration" as terms of parole. He refused and they retained him in prison for 20 years or so. Still, that's not a cure, it's a treatment. As far as I know, only treatments are available, including counselling, but no cure.
For someone like CC, there is a decent chance he is not a pedophile but there is no sure way of knowing, hence the need to limit access to children.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 21, 2014 15:26:15 GMT -5
It seems like even castration, does not cure a pedophile, and only allows them a "vacation" of sorts according to this article.. Alvin www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Expert-says-castration-no-cure-for-pedophilia-1913426.php Texas lawmakers made voluntary castration available for sex offenders in 1997, and since then, three have been surgically castrated. While orchiectomy, surgical removal of the testes, may lower male testosterone levels and decrease sex drive, the procedure won't change the object of a pedophile's desire — children, said a psychologist who evaluated Texas' three castrated inmates. "It doesn't normalize sexual interest," said Dr. Walter Meyer, an expert in sex offender therapy at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It just takes the edge off. I had one patient describe it as a vacation because it wasn't on his mind all the time." Victims rights activists mirror Meyer's observations in their argument for returning child molester Larry Don McQuay to prison, saying that the procedure will not rehabilitate him. The notorious pedophile, who was released from prison last week, garnered national attention when he begged state prison officials to castrate him to prevent future sexual assaults. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, at least eight states allow some form of castration. Most states offering chemical castration use it as a punishment for some repeat sex offenders. Chemical castration requires men to take drugs such as Depo-Provera or Lupron to reduce testosterone levels
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Post by faune on Mar 21, 2014 15:31:32 GMT -5
It partly depends on whether or not the offender is a pedophile or not. Some offenders are "opportunistic" offenders who are not attracted to children in particular. This is pretty common with offenders of post-pubescent minors. For them, it's a matter of recognizing boundaries rather than needing a "cure". For the true pedophiles, one particular pedophile offender I know was offered "chemical castration" as terms of parole. He refused and they retained him in prison for 20 years or so. Still, that's not a cure, it's a treatment. As far as I know, only treatments are available, including counselling, but no cure.
For someone like CC, there is a decent chance he is not a pedophile but there is no sure way of knowing, hence the need to limit access to children. ~ I agree with everything you said above and believe you summed it up quite well regarding CSA and how it should be viewed by members within the 2x2's. Since these workers do have access to their homes and children, caution must be employed to protect the children in any group gathering or over-night stay. |
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Post by faune on Mar 21, 2014 15:42:07 GMT -5
It seems like even castration, does not cure a pedophile, and only allows them a "vacation" of sorts according to this article.. Alvin www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Expert-says-castration-no-cure-for-pedophilia-1913426.php Texas lawmakers made voluntary castration available for sex offenders in 1997, and since then, three have been surgically castrated.
While orchiectomy, surgical removal of the testes, may lower male testosterone levels and decrease sex drive, the procedure won't change the object of a pedophile's desire — children, said a psychologist who evaluated Texas' three castrated inmates.
"It doesn't normalize sexual interest," said Dr. Walter Meyer, an expert in sex offender therapy at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It just takes the edge off. I had one patient describe it as a vacation because it wasn't on his mind all the time."
Victims rights activists mirror Meyer's observations in their argument for returning child molester Larry Don McQuay to prison, saying that the procedure will not rehabilitate him. The notorious pedophile, who was released from prison last week, garnered national attention when he begged state prison officials to castrate him to prevent future sexual assaults.
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, at least eight states allow some form of castration. Most states offering chemical castration use it as a punishment for some repeat sex offenders.
Chemical castration requires men to take drugs such as Depo-Provera or Lupron to reduce testosterone levels ~ Thanks for providing that link above regarding chemical castration. I added it to my earlier post, because I was discussing the same procedure earlier as another method used in trying to affect a cure for pedophilia, however with little success. |
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Post by whyisitso on Mar 21, 2014 15:57:59 GMT -5
I believe they 'cured' CC by shipping him off to South America 20 odd years ago. Isn't that how it works??
Problem? What do you mean he has a problem? There's no problem, he's not in the work in Victoria so we've FIXED the problem! Aren't we great problem solvers? And we didn't even need to go to the authorities. Problem no more! So it seems that YOU have the problem, not CC. Can't you forgive? Then that's a problem. Let's talk about that instead.
And on it goes....
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Post by fixit on Mar 21, 2014 16:13:13 GMT -5
So it seems that YOU have the problem, not CC. Can't you forgive? Then that's a problem. Let's talk about that instead. Last time I tried to discuss CSA with a worker, lack of forgiveness became the issue. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 21, 2014 17:23:11 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, is it something 100 percent of them will fight for the rest of their lives? Please don't mistake this question for me thinking the risk of thinking they are cured or have moved beyond it is worth it. I'm just wondering if it's a possibility...and that maybe Chris Chandler was at this point. Please understand the difference between what I'm referring to of no longer having to fight the temptation vs being successful in the fight. Good question JD. I'd like to reword that slightly: Does anyone know if there is a person can be cured (or maybe a better term is - move beyond) CSA or once someone commits it, or should none of them be trusted unsupervised with children for the rest of their lives?Was not Chris' offenses back in his early 20's? How was he raised? Was he raised that he must not have sex with an adult female due to pregnancy being a cause to catch him or ruin his future? The reason I say this is that Chris may well have been just "experimenting" his normal sexual curiosities though yet at the same time with multiple offenses one does wonder. But why I ask is "WHY has he not had any recent offenses of same crimes?" Surely he had many opportunities to groom victims as a worker! And he placed himself as someone the victims could come to for help! There's something in this picture that doesn't fit the ordinary "pedophile"! |
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Post by Gene on Mar 21, 2014 17:42:08 GMT -5
It partly depends on whether or not the offender is a pedophile or not. Some offenders are "opportunistic" offenders who are not attracted to children in particular. This is pretty common with offenders of post-pubescent minors. For them, it's a matter of recognizing boundaries rather than needing a "cure". For the true pedophiles, one particular pedophile offender I know was offered "chemical castration" as terms of parole. He refused and they retained him in prison for 20 years or so. Still, that's not a cure, it's a treatment. As far as I know, only treatments are available, including counselling, but no cure. For someone like CC, there is a decent chance he is not a pedophile but there is no sure way of knowing, hence the need to limit access to children. Good point -- CSA does not necessarily a pedophile make. CSA is a legal issue; pedophilia is a medical/psychological issue. Consider the 19 year-old female who hooks up with a 17 year-old male. She could be convicted of CSA, but pose no risk to any child from that point on. Hypothetically speaking. |
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Post by jondough on Mar 21, 2014 18:16:09 GMT -5
This is a VERY important point.
Huge difference between someone that is dangerous and can't help themselves, vs someone that is "opportunistic". The "opportunistic" would be acting on normal urges that they are unable to control. In the case of a worker, it would be due to the un-natural celibacy life style. The same reason they may have an affair/sexual immorality. Simply leaving the work, getting married, and living a normal life style could perhaps be the cure to this.
I would venture to guess that the majority (not all) of workers that have committed CSA were for these reasons.
I wonder if this may have been the reason Jesus nor the Apostles required a un-married, celibate, ministry.
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Post by Gene on Mar 21, 2014 18:20:34 GMT -5
This is a VERY important point. Huge difference between someone that is dangerous and can't help themselves, vs someone that is "opportunistic". The "opportunistic" would be acting on normal urges that they are unable to control. In the case of a worker, it would be due to the un-natural celibacy life style. The same reason they may have an affair/sexual immorality. Simply leaving the work, getting married, and living a normal life style could perhaps be the cure to this. I would venture to guess that the majority (not all) of workers that have committed CSA were for these reasons. I wonder if this may have been the reason Jesus nor the Apostles required a un-married, celibate, ministry. I'm not so sure, JD -- maybe it depends on the age of the C who was a victim of the CSA. If it was a late-teens victim; MAYBE mid-teens, I could see it as being an opportunistic expression of "normal" urges on the part of the abuser. But pre-teen / pre-puberty? Not normal. Maybe opportunistic, but I would not ever trust that person around children, whether in or out of the work. Keep in mind, too, that when it comes to late-teens, CSA is more a matter of law and cultural norms. The morality of such encounters has shifted dramatically over the years. 200 year ago, a 16-year old bride was totally normal and moral. Now it would be illegal at least, and generally considered immoral by today's standards. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 21, 2014 18:30:06 GMT -5
This is a VERY important point. Huge difference between someone that is dangerous and can't help themselves, vs someone that is "opportunistic". The "opportunistic" would be acting on normal urges that they are unable to control. In the case of a worker, it would be due to the un-natural celibacy life style. The same reason they may have an affair/sexual immorality. Simply leaving the work, getting married, and living a normal life style could perhaps be the cure to this. I would venture to guess that the majority (not all) of workers that have committed CSA were for these reasons. I wonder if this may have been the reason Jesus nor the Apostles required a un-married, celibate, ministry. I'm not so sure, JD -- maybe it depends on the age of the C who was a victim of the CSA. If it was a late-teens victim; MAYBE mid-teens, I could see it as being an opportunistic expression of "normal" urges on the part of the abuser. But pre-teen / pre-puberty? Not normal. Maybe opportunistic, but I would not ever trust that person around children, whether in or out of the work. Keep in mind, too, that when it comes to late-teens, CSA is more a matter of law and cultural norms. The morality of such encounters has shifted dramatically over the years. 200 year ago, a 16-year old bride was totally normal and moral. Now it would be illegal at least, and generally considered immoral by today's standards. I've heard of the fact that when a girl's parent(s) found a single young man who looked promising or was due to inherent riches, etc they would teach their girl to flirt with the young man and then after they started dating teach her to get him to get her pregnant and then her papa dear would threaten the young man with "Marry her or go to jail." Course most would marry the girl! So I think this still happens at times, though birth control isn't as big an issue howadays! |
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