Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 19:09:29 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Feb 27, 2014 20:53:54 GMT -5
There's a good chance this solid couple will hit a brick wall and leave the fellowship like thousands before them have done.
They came from outside of the fellowship around 15 years ago, some of the very few converts who have come from outside over the last couple of generations.
While the overseers are unwilling to deal with the issues, its rather futile for their staff to bring more people in.
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Archie
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Non,je ne regrette rein!!!!
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Post by Archie on Feb 28, 2014 6:22:23 GMT -5
Yep. So sad. These things will never be dealt with. They just don't happen in the 2x2 faith. Yeah right.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 28, 2014 10:47:40 GMT -5
A very informative letter....however the length of it will be an excuse for those who don't want to be bothered with finding out what the real issues are!
Perhaps when these people understand what is failing within the fellowship, then they can follow their own conscience to a better place of understanding and worship of the Lord our God and SAviour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 11:13:48 GMT -5
I find it amazing that so few of the solid friends are willing to stand up openly before the workers in support of such issues. 2x2ism has become the fellowship of moral cowards -- where many people in the organization share these concerns but so few are willing to openly stand for them. Fear of reprisal is far greater than genuine interst in basic Christian values!!
Many people see the ungodliness in the Vietnam situation, but a person can count the folks willing to do anything about it, on the fingers of one hand. Fear of reprisal by leadership is the only sure genuine feeling 2x2 produces.
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Post by snow on Feb 28, 2014 13:10:47 GMT -5
I find it amazing that so few of the solid friends are willing to stand up openly before the workers in support of such issues. 2x2ism has become the fellowship of moral cowards -- where many people in the organization share these concerns but so few are willing to openly stand for them. Fear of reprisal is far greater than genuine interst in basic Christian values!! Many people see the ungodliness in the Vietnam situation, but a person can count the folks willing to do anything about it, on the fingers of one hand. Fear of reprisal by leadership is the only sure genuine feeling 2x2 produces. I think it would make a huge statement the workers couldn't ignore if everyone in the next gospel meeting stood up and told the workers that is was time to look at the issues or they would be walking out the door. United you stand, divided you will surely fall.
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Post by faune on Feb 28, 2014 14:26:50 GMT -5
I find it amazing that so few of the solid friends are willing to stand up openly before the workers in support of such issues. 2x2ism has become the fellowship of moral cowards -- where many people in the organization share these concerns but so few are willing to openly stand for them. Fear of reprisal is far greater than genuine interst in basic Christian values!! Many people see the ungodliness in the Vietnam situation, but a person can count the folks willing to do anything about it, on the fingers of one hand. Fear of reprisal by leadership is the only sure genuine feeling 2x2 produces. I think it would make a huge statement the workers couldn't ignore if everyone in the next gospel meeting stood up and told the workers that is was time to look at the issues or they would be walking out the door. United you stand, divided you will surely fall. Such cowardice behavior among the friends was something I marveled at during my professing days. It seemed nobody was inclined to speak up regarding the bullying practices of the workers. They just simply accepted the treatment as the way things were done within the fold. Looking back, I can really see how this contributed to the abuses that manifested themselves over the years in greater numbers. CSA is only part of the picture due to scandals that have come to light in the last decade or so via Internet. The internal strife among the leadership in the different regions over D&R rulings by the overseers just added to the pot of displeasure among the friends. I have no doubt that if the friends don't get more actively involved in affecting change, the group will simply fade from existence due to the workers' resistance to meaningful change. Just my thoughts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 15:38:55 GMT -5
The worker and friends are already ignoring their plea for change and accountability.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 17:07:35 GMT -5
One of the horrible aspects of the leaven of 2x2ism is complete moral cowardice it fosters. At the time many of the solid friends professed they were willing to stand up for what they believed was truth .. and were willing to face persecution to prove their faith -- but as this ugly leaven works in their lives, they don't even dare to openly declare to group leadership what their genuine beliefs really are -- not even in issues as serious as CSA and clear persecution of complete groups of people such as those in Vietnam.
There is no more fitting description than complete moral cowardliness in the deepest of yellow.. And it has become complete pandemic within the entire group. It obviously follows through even to the ex-community -- obviously ashamed to even risk putting their real names up to support the important things they claim to believe in.
But as this thread mentions their are a few still left willing to express faith in moral principle .. thank God for them!!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 28, 2014 17:36:51 GMT -5
One of the horrible aspects of the leaven of 2x2ism is complete moral cowardice it fosters. At the time many of the solid friends professed they were willing to stand up for what they believed was truth .. and were willing to face persecution to prove their faith -- but as this ugly leaven works in their lives, they don't even dare to openly declare to group leadership what their genuine beliefs really are -- not even in issues as serious as CSA and clear persecution of complete groups of people such as those in Vietnam. There is no more fitting description than complete moral cowardliness in the deepest of yellow.. And it has become complete pandemic within the entire group. It obviously follows through even to the ex-community -- obviously ashamed to even risk putting their real names up to support the important things they claim to believe in. But as this thread mentions their are a few still left willing to express faith in moral principle .. thank God for them!! But how long can these "few" withstand the fruits of darkness that swirl around them? Won't they either cave in or remove themselves sooner then later?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 17:44:44 GMT -5
But how long can these "few" withstand the fruits of darkness that swirl around them? Won't they either cave in or remove themselves sooner then later? Standing for truth isn't a matter of strategy .. it is a matter of Christian principle. Let the chips fall where they fall.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 23:01:05 GMT -5
Some forum contributors have suggested that CSA was unknown 10 years ago. I disagree strongly. It has always been around since the beginning of time and I have been told of an instance in the 1950's amongst the workers in New Zealand. The perpetrator,an Irish worker was sent back to Ireland via Fiji and just a step ahead of the police who had become aware of his activities in an Auckland park. Willie Hughes was the head worker who engineered his removal, Wille Phynn and Walter Franks were in on the act. There was a worker at the time who disagreed with this course of action but who was ignored. Is it any wonder that many people have no respect whatsoever for these so called leaders.
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Post by ellie on Mar 2, 2014 1:04:43 GMT -5
Some forum contributors have suggested that CSA was unknown 10 years ago. I disagree strongly. It has always been around since the beginning of time and I have been told of an instance in the 1950's amongst the workers in New Zealand. The perpetrator,an Irish worker was sent back to Ireland via Fiji and just a step ahead of the police who had become aware of his activities in an Auckland park. Willie Hughes was the head worker who engineered his removal, Wille Phynn and Walter Franks were in on the act. There was a worker at the time who disagreed with this course of action but who was ignored. Is it any wonder that many people have no respect whatsoever for these so called leaders. I agree the workers would have been well aware of CSA among their ranks. Perhaps 10 years ago many did not understand that CSA can and does have long-term devastating effects for victims .
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Post by fixit on Mar 2, 2014 3:48:40 GMT -5
Some forum contributors have suggested that CSA was unknown 10 years ago. I disagree strongly. It has always been around since the beginning of time and I have been told of an instance in the 1950's amongst the workers in New Zealand. The perpetrator,an Irish worker was sent back to Ireland via Fiji and just a step ahead of the police who had become aware of his activities in an Auckland park. Willie Hughes was the head worker who engineered his removal, Wille Phynn and Walter Franks were in on the act. There was a worker at the time who disagreed with this course of action but who was ignored. Is it any wonder that many people have no respect whatsoever for these so called leaders. You might be thinking of something I wrote. It was not that CSA was unknown ten years ago but rather that we didn't know much about how best to deal with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 7:59:39 GMT -5
What would all of you suggest a person does about CSA if you are not aware of any directly only indirectly threw this board and WINGS ? That couple in Texas sent there letter although many feel that nothing will come from it. At least they did what they could. This question is especially to the one's that broad brush and call every one co wards in the meetings. Please refrain from generalizing. Rather give practical suggestions what one can do as stated in my question.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 9:31:57 GMT -5
What would all of you suggest a person does about CSA if you are not aware of any directly only indirectly threw this board and WINGS ? That couple in Texas sent there letter although many feel that nothing will come from it. At least they did what they could. This question is especially to the one's that broad brush and call every one co wards in the meetings. Please refrain from generalizing. Rather give practical suggestions what one can do as stated in my question. If your question is for anyone, here is one suggestion. When your local workers visit, ask them what they are doing to help prevent cases like Johan Marais from happening again and taking so many years to be dealt with. Ask them what has changed if anything. Ask them if they are instructing parents and their fellow workers to use the rule of 2 when there are non-parental adults around your children. That would be a good start.
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sayitaintso
New Member
Life is best on the OUTSIDE looking IN!
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Post by sayitaintso on Mar 2, 2014 12:50:37 GMT -5
........standing up, clapping and giving these people a very hearty AMEN!! But, sadly enough, this "TRUTH" has so many people entrapped in the social, family, and historical dogma, that even the most intelligent, God fearing people who mean well, turn their heads to this information and worse, to those that dare care enough to openly voice their concerns, turn their backs on them. It truly sickens me to the core, as I for one have been affected greatly by this subject. So, my heart goes out to all of us that care....whether we go to meeting or not.
And yes, I agree with others, these folks will someday be like so many others, no longer a part of the "TRUTH". But that's a good thing, but the road getting to peace on the outside is not an easy one. But a journey well worth it! I feel bad for them in that regard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 14:11:16 GMT -5
When I view galleries of worker photos from the last decade or so, I see several pedophiles among them. At the time, these men were viewed as true servants closer to heaven than other mortals.
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Post by fixit on Mar 2, 2014 16:00:30 GMT -5
When I view galleries of worker photos from the last decade or so, I see several pedophiles among them. At the time, these men were viewed as true servants closer to heaven than other mortals. It seems that they're waiting for God to remove the immoral workers. "We should be careful to not get ahead of the Almighty".
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 2, 2014 16:00:33 GMT -5
One of the horrible aspects of the leaven of 2x2ism is complete moral cowardice it fosters. At the time many of the solid friends professed they were willing to stand up for what they believed was truth .. and were willing to face persecution to prove their faith -- but as this ugly leaven works in their lives, they don't even dare to openly declare to group leadership what their genuine beliefs really are -- not even in issues as serious as CSA and clear persecution of complete groups of people such as those in Vietnam. There is no more fitting description than complete moral cowardliness in the deepest of yellow.. And it has become complete pandemic within the entire group. It obviously follows through even to the ex-community -- obviously ashamed to even risk putting their real names up to support the important things they claim to believe in. But as this thread mentions their are a few still left willing to express faith in moral principle .. thank God for them!! But how long can these "few" withstand the fruits of darkness that swirl around them? Won't they either cave in or remove themselves sooner then later? sharingtheriches 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. ken
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 0:19:22 GMT -5
Hi Ross, I think we should open a book on this question of yours. The bet will be: What comes first, an adequate response to the Texas letter or the next ice age. My money is on the ice age fronting up first.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 3, 2014 10:52:35 GMT -5
Does anyone know whether the folk in Texas have received an adequate response? I am wondering what an adequate response might involve given that most of the issues raised in the letter deal with the issue of Child Sexual Abuse in the ministry and in the eldership of the church. An adequate response would presumably involve senior workers from around the world coming together and drafting an open letter to the fellowship which attached guidelines for dealing with Child Sexual Abuse in the ministry and eldership of the church. These senior workers could then issue these guidelines in their local areas of responsibility IN AN ATTEMPT TO RESTORE SOME KIND OF CONFIDENCE AMONG MEMBERS THAT THE MINISTRY WERE DOING THEIR UTMOST TO DEAL WITH THIS HIDEOUS ISSUE. A similar analogy might be the meeting in England in 1938 which discussed divorce and remarriage and where agreement was reached regarding how workers should deal with those folk who were already divorced and remarried before they professed. Let me put forward 6 reasons why such a meeting about CSA will not occur and why uniform guidelines will never be issued: 1. The ministry do not want to draw attention to the fact that there is a problem within their ranks 2. Some Head Workers are in denial that any problem does exist 3. Admitting to friends that some workers have fallen far short of what they should be will undermine the pre-eminent and special role that workers have in the fellowship - where some people still believe they are largely infallible 4. The meeting will result in a significant amount of interest being generated in forums on the internet which will potentially expose more folks to some of the doctrinal problems in the church 5. A satisfactory agreement will not likely be reached - the wording will be so watered down by conservative Head Workers opposed to dealing with the issue that some Head Workers may choose to ignore the outcome and develop stronger guidelines for ministers in their own region 6. In countries where the first language is not English, many professing folk may not be aware that there is any problem. Issuing guidelines will impact on the faith of these people and may make them aware of the broader challenges in the fellowship. In commercial terms when a business is in decline and no changes are being made to arrest the decline (or the changes are too slow being made) the CEO is usually protecting the past or hoping that what has worked in the past will all of a sudden work again. In other words they are in denial. What I think will occur in most jurisdictions around the world in the next 20 years is that ministers of religion will be forced to register with a government body and to satisfy that body that they have undertaken safe training and that the church is adequately dealing with CSA issues. What do others think? Assuming that the Texas friends are representative of other concerned friends around the globe what is the chance of an adequate response? It seems that there's been some kind of threats to the workers who were actually doing things....threats to sue them for liable and slander......I can see these workers stepping back into the darkness to keep from having themselves and other workers drawn through the court systems with such things...though admittedly I doubt the person who threatened could come up with something that too many people already know all about and thus the threatener would lose big time....it's just the going through the world's court system to prove all of that. I have to wonder IF this isn't the reason this couple have NOT heard one word of return from those they sent the papers to and as I mentioned it IS rather long and detailed and I seriously doubt very many of the recipients bothered to read it all!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 3, 2014 10:57:25 GMT -5
But how long can these "few" withstand the fruits of darkness that swirl around them? Won't they either cave in or remove themselves sooner then later? Standing for truth isn't a matter of strategy .. it is a matter of Christian principle. Let the chips fall where they fall. True! However the problem is that friends and workers alike feel compelled to stay within the fellowship and most of that is because of the brainwashing exclusivity that they'll go to hell if they remove themselves from the fellowship! Talk about "control", it is "mind control" actually that the workers have over the friends, etc It is difficult for some to maintain the Christian principle, esp. due to the fact that that isn't preached, but going outside of the fellowship is. I have to think even the exes have had difficulty shedding that teaching and getting fully into the Christian principle!
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 3, 2014 12:35:05 GMT -5
This reminds me of a situation where I was involved in a fire. The workers are starting their own fires by not dealing with these issues. The made a mess in Canada in the Alberta mess, the twin girls from Michigan, Jerome and Bill Denk's denying being "clergy", and the VN issue.
I refer to the fire as I tried to put it out, I would see it in one direction, and my feeble efforts would only knock it down, and I would see another part leap into flames, and I would try to deal with that. After all the work, and my near exhaustion, I had to just let it burn out.
The workers aren't even trying to put out fires. They are starting them, and the little flames start leaping up into big fires and I believe that they are in the position to either put full force on the issues and deal with them properly, or just stand back and watch it burn.
It seems they have chosen the latter.....Sad for all the good people that want to be true...........
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Post by mdm on Mar 3, 2014 13:09:18 GMT -5
I feel I owe you all a response here. There are those who have left the fellowship when they learned about these issues. There are those who have stayed and are trying to work on these issues patiently and quietly. Admittedly, my husband’s and my approach was more of a bull-in-the-china shop approach.
We were not B&R in the fellowship, but entered it believing it to hold higher moral/spiritual standards then other churches. So, when we found out about immorality in the ministry and CSA issues, we felt deeply betrayed and deceived. As our VN friends would say, this was our “heart letter.” The purpose of it was to fight for the fellowship AND for our ability to remain in it AND to find out and prove for ourselves just who these people are and what their true belief and convictions are.
This letter was not the first, nor the last attempt. In January of 2013, we wrote to our current and previous overseer asking them how CSA issues are going to be handled in the future. In August, we sent the email/letter to over 40 world-wide overseers, which is not just about CSA but also about immorality in the ministry. We received replies from 2 overseers on another continent whom we don’t know, acknowledging our concerns, but assuring us that these issues are being handled appropriately. Also, some time during the Fall we tried to communicate to our overseer our strong disagreement with the practice of allowing those who have engaged in immorality to remain in the work.
In November, we sent a letter to the overseers and the responsible overseer for the east regarding the handling of a worker who has been mentioned on this board and the surrounding issues. We did not receive any reply from the out of state overseers, but we did have a visit with our overseer.
In January, we sent an email to all the elders in our field, asking them to express their understanding of these issues and to speak to workers. At that point our overseer did call and suggest a private visit along with one elder from another meeting. However, we declined - feeling that since we had broached the issue to all the elders including our local elders, any visit should be more inclusive and open. In February, we sent an email to all the friends in our field, asking them the same thing, and saying that “for us to remain in the fellowship, we need to be convinced that the whole church is standing for what is scripturally and morally right.” The few replies we received from elders and friends have shown us that while some are familiar with these issues, they express a trust in the judgment and discretion of the overseers and as a result do not see the need to hold workers openly accountable nor to ask for assurances that these mistakes will not be repeated nor to seek an apology for things in the past.
We have been told that while some agree with our concerns, they do not agree with our “method.” When we asked what method they suggest, we were told that no method was suggested. Some have essentially counseled that after expressing these concerns, it must be left in the hands of the workers and of God.
We have not gone back to meetings since our correspondence with the field elders. We should add that local workers have communicated with us in a polite and respectful manner. They offered the opportunity for special meeting visits but also left it quite open to us to respond however we felt comfortable. Due to the stress and emotion of these days, we have not yet replied to all responses from friends and workers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 13:33:30 GMT -5
I feel I owe you all a response here. There are those who have left the fellowship when they learned about these issues. There are those who have stayed and are trying to work on these issues patiently and quietly. Admittedly, my husband’s and my approach was more of a bull-in-the-china shop approach. We were not B&R in the fellowship, but entered it believing it to hold higher moral/spiritual standards then other churches. So, when we found out about immorality in the ministry and CSA issues, we felt deeply betrayed and deceived. As our VN friends would say, this was our “heart letter.” The purpose of it was to fight for the fellowship AND for our ability to remain in it AND to find out and prove for ourselves just who these people are and what their true belief and convictions are. This letter was not the first, nor the last attempt. In January of 2013, we wrote to our current and previous overseer asking them how CSA issues are going to be handled in the future. In August, we sent the email/letter to over 40 world-wide overseers, which is not just about CSA but also about immorality in the ministry. We received replies from 2 overseers on another continent whom we don’t know, acknowledging our concerns, but assuring us that these issues are being handled appropriately. Also, some time during the Fall we tried to communicate to our overseer our strong disagreement with the practice of allowing those who have engaged in immorality to remain in the work. In November, we sent a letter to the overseers and the responsible overseer for the east regarding the handling of a worker who has been mentioned on this board and the surrounding issues. We did not receive any reply from the out of state overseers, but we did have a visit with our overseer. In January, we sent an email to all the elders in our field, asking them to express their understanding of these issues and to speak to workers. At that point our overseer did call and suggest a private visit along with one elder from another meeting. However, we declined - feeling that since we had broached the issue to all the elders including our local elders, any visit should be more inclusive and open. In February, we sent an email to all the friends in our field, asking them the same thing, and saying that “for us to remain in the fellowship, we need to be convinced that the whole church is standing for what is scripturally and morally right.” The few replies we received from elders and friends have shown us that while some are familiar with these issues, they express a trust in the judgment and discretion of the overseers and as a result do not see the need to hold workers openly accountable nor to ask for assurances that these mistakes will not be repeated nor to seek an apology for things in the past. We have been told that while some agree with our concerns, they do not agree with our “method.” When we asked what method they suggest, we were told that no method was suggested. Some have essentially counseled that after expressing these concerns, it must be left in the hands of the workers and of God. We have not gone back to meetings since our correspondence with the field elders. We should add that local workers have communicated with us in a polite and respectful manner. They offered the opportunity for special meeting visits but also left it quite open to us to respond however we felt comfortable. Due to the stress and emotion of these days, we have not yet replied to all responses from friends and workers. If there were nominations for "Friends of the Year", you would certainly be on there. There are few people who have done as much as you and your husband to promote a healthy and vibrant fellowship. The record is now there for any worker or friend who thinks it important to learn of some important aspects to help make the meetings a good thing to be a part of.
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2014 14:28:41 GMT -5
You know it's truly sad that the workers aren't willing to address such important issues and are losing wonderful, devoted people because of it. The fellowship of the friends is actually a great idea. If they weren't so exclusive they would be a much nicer answer to being in a community of like minded people. They are hands on and have a nice little community going. However, I suppose some of that wouldn't be there in the first place if they didn't think exclusively. Part of their sense of community is because of the exclusivity. However, for those of us on the outside looking in, it seems that the workers and overseers have a very low understanding or moral obligations to their people and that is sad.
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Post by fixit on Mar 3, 2014 14:53:35 GMT -5
I feel I owe you all a response here. There are those who have left the fellowship when they learned about these issues. There are those who have stayed and are trying to work on these issues patiently and quietly. Admittedly, my husband’s and my approach was more of a bull-in-the-china shop approach. We were not B&R in the fellowship, but entered it believing it to hold higher moral/spiritual standards then other churches. So, when we found out about immorality in the ministry and CSA issues, we felt deeply betrayed and deceived. As our VN friends would say, this was our “heart letter.” The purpose of it was to fight for the fellowship AND for our ability to remain in it AND to find out and prove for ourselves just who these people are and what their true belief and convictions are. This letter was not the first, nor the last attempt. In January of 2013, we wrote to our current and previous overseer asking them how CSA issues are going to be handled in the future. In August, we sent the email/letter to over 40 world-wide overseers, which is not just about CSA but also about immorality in the ministry. We received replies from 2 overseers on another continent whom we don’t know, acknowledging our concerns, but assuring us that these issues are being handled appropriately. Also, some time during the Fall we tried to communicate to our overseer our strong disagreement with the practice of allowing those who have engaged in immorality to remain in the work. In November, we sent a letter to the overseers and the responsible overseer for the east regarding the handling of a worker who has been mentioned on this board and the surrounding issues. We did not receive any reply from the out of state overseers, but we did have a visit with our overseer. In January, we sent an email to all the elders in our field, asking them to express their understanding of these issues and to speak to workers. At that point our overseer did call and suggest a private visit along with one elder from another meeting. However, we declined - feeling that since we had broached the issue to all the elders including our local elders, any visit should be more inclusive and open. In February, we sent an email to all the friends in our field, asking them the same thing, and saying that “for us to remain in the fellowship, we need to be convinced that the whole church is standing for what is scripturally and morally right.” The few replies we received from elders and friends have shown us that while some are familiar with these issues, they express a trust in the judgment and discretion of the overseers and as a result do not see the need to hold workers openly accountable nor to ask for assurances that these mistakes will not be repeated nor to seek an apology for things in the past. We have been told that while some agree with our concerns, they do not agree with our “method.” When we asked what method they suggest, we were told that no method was suggested. Some have essentially counseled that after expressing these concerns, it must be left in the hands of the workers and of God. We have not gone back to meetings since our correspondence with the field elders. We should add that local workers have communicated with us in a polite and respectful manner. They offered the opportunity for special meeting visits but also left it quite open to us to respond however we felt comfortable. Due to the stress and emotion of these days, we have not yet replied to all responses from friends and workers. If our profession doesn't result in a higher moral standard then what use is it? Is God unable to work in the hearts and lives of his people in a way that produces the fruit of the Spirit? Otherwise the fellowship would be nothing more than a hereditary social club where we stroke one another's egos and put on a good outward show. Interestingly, some in New Zealand responded to Graham Thompson's concerns in a similar way - they agree with the concerns but not with the "method". What is the correct method? The nearest thing to a "correct method" that system-minded people can come up with is "pray, and leave it to God". Yet throughout the Bible we read of God asking people to do more than pray. Much more.
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