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Post by Done4now on Feb 9, 2014 3:51:06 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 8:37:46 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place". That's ironic because that is one of the primary things he has been campaigning against. Regardless, it is worthwhile examining. We do have an allegation that he refused baptism of man who one individual would consider as eligible. He also allegedly cut off Steve Blubaugh and Gary Johnston in ChCh in a prejudicial and authoritarian manner. These two instances, if true, may indicate that he doesn't understand what huge effort it will take if the fellowship moved away from the current dictatorship style to something more of a consensus style.
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2014 10:40:50 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place". That's ironic because that is one of the primary things he has been campaigning against. It would seem that some believe that turn about is fair play!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 9, 2014 11:11:01 GMT -5
Are you speculating, or are these things you have heard about GT specifically? Oh dear lord no i have not heard anything -- but I'd bet that's what's being said. I think it too, Gene! Those phrases are so pat that they're rolled out nearly everytime when questions arise that the workers either cannot answer or refuse to answer and then some maverick worker or friend addresses those questions...then here comes those pat expressions from the ones who had the right to answer questions the first time. I've heard it too often!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 9, 2014 11:16:16 GMT -5
Exactly. The way it is headed, GT's story will become the official history and yet another black mark on the fellowship whether it is fully accurate or not. One complication is that there WILL be an unofficial insider story that differs from Graham's. These vacuums always get filled with something and in this case, it is most likely to get filled with defensive-type information. Some people will just get brush offs like "God will take care of it" or "oh, you don't know the full story" which will usually get a lot of people to back off but others will persist and get some kind of story, usually focusing the blame on some deficiency of the person who stood up for what they believed was right. Another approach is the "Oh, we don't want to talk bad about someone else," with that knowing smile. I would also suspect the "GT was into things he shouldn't be messing with" statement. Overall, I think GT had an excellent approach to CSA. Too bad we don't have the majority of the friends and workers agreeing with him. Does leave us all to think "too little, too late," though. Reminded me of one of the US overseers told me once that Cherie was digging into things that wasn't her place to dig! I was stunned by that so didn't grab the opportunity to ask for further discussion...and I doubt I would have gotten further discussion altogether!
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2014 13:08:27 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place". That's ironic because that is one of the primary things he has been campaigning against. Regardless, it is worthwhile examining. We do have an allegation that he refused baptism of man who one individual would consider as eligible. He also allegedly cut off Steve Blubaugh and Gary Johnston in ChCh in a prejudicial and authoritarian manner. These two instances, if true, may indicate that he doesn't understand what huge effort it will take if the fellowship moved away from the current dictatorship style to something more of a consensus style. The apostle Paul persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. He later condemned the hypocrisy he observed in the older brothers of the church he had formerly tried to destroy. While on different sides of the fence, he had stood firmly for what he believed in. This too is Graham Thompson's strength.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:18:32 GMT -5
I never liked the NOT OUR PLACE to handle wrongs in the "Kingdom" mindset. Just as I resent the "I don't have a stake in such things as I am not in the group" BS from some TMB posters. Anyone and everyone has a responsibility to make sure innocent children are protected. If Ray Corbett and Alan Richardson are trying to cover some of their naughty workers, they should do some community service like Messrs Denk and Frandle in MI.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2014 13:46:53 GMT -5
I never liked the NOT OUR PLACE to handle wrongs in the "Kingdom" mindset. Just as I resent the "I don't have a stake in such things as I am not in the group" BS from some TMB posters. Anyone and everyone has a responsibility to make sure innocent children are protected. If Ray Corbett and Alan Richardson are trying to cover some of their naughty workers, they should do some community service like Messrs Denk and Frandle in MI. I think you're mixing a few issues here. As an example, Scott is one who says "I don't have a stake in such things as I am not in the group". With respect to child sexual abuse in the fellowship he's done more than anyone else on TMB.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 14:08:46 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place". As I gradually became aware of just how "Place" conscious that fellowship was, I began to understand the dangers, to and for me, when I emphasize "place" to the extreme. It is one of the essential themes observable in every day practice. So, I searched for it in my Lord's ministry, and indeed found roots traceable to there, yet not to such an over whelming extent.
Mary did chose a better place which was not to be taken from her, and Peter was rebuked for wanting to know what another's "place" would/should be. Yet, are these seemingly the basis for all the place consciousness in that "fellowship" today? If so, should they be? Why?
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2014 14:48:12 GMT -5
Anyone and everyone has a responsibility to make sure innocent children are protected. If Ray Corbett and Alan Richardson are trying to cover some of their naughty workers, they should do some community service like Messrs Denk and Frandle in MI. Ray Corbett is a spent force I believe, and I think there are statements on record from Alan Richardson that "naughty workers" will not be tolerated.
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 9, 2014 16:45:05 GMT -5
One of the rebuttals is that Graham is right in principle, but wrong in how he presented it. CD Sounds like classical worker speak. There is the right way to present things in the thinking of the workers and then the wrong way where they have to deal with it. ken
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 21:32:33 GMT -5
One of the rebuttals is that Graham is right in principle, but wrong in how he presented it. CD Sounds like classical worker speak. There is the right way to present things in the thinking of the workers and then the wrong way where they have to deal with it. ken Yes, I have seen it largely as a control mechanism. If you don't want to deal with the problem itself, then focus on how it was raised as evidence that it is invalid. Right out of the Handbook!
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Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2014 1:43:37 GMT -5
CD Sounds like classical worker speak. There is the right way to present things in the thinking of the workers and then the wrong way where they have to deal with it. ken Yes, I have seen it largely as a control mechanism. If you don't want to deal with the problem itself, then focus on how it was raised as evidence that it is invalid. Right out of the Handbook! Caste fear, uncertainty and doubt on the messenger in order to discredit the message. The Pharisees did that to Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 6:00:11 GMT -5
One of the rebuttals is that Graham is right in principle, but wrong in how he presented it. That is nearly always part of the cheapest kind of 2x2 justification of expulsion -- In reality, it is very very very seldom that critical concern is unfounded. The only other justification that 2x2ism comes up with sometimes is that "You don't understand all the facts" -- Which of course NO ONE ever does understand ALL the facts -- None of us are God. However, we are all always responsible to deal with the facts that we do have at hand. 2x2ism is notorious at referring to facts that no one but they themselves have access to, and 'facts' that they refuse to share with others -- just expecting complete trust. This mindset is the heart of corruption.
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Post by christiansburg on Feb 10, 2014 8:57:58 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place". That's ironic because that is one of the primary things he has been campaigning against. Regardless, it is worthwhile examining. We do have an allegation that he refused baptism of man who one individual would consider as eligible. He also allegedly cut off Steve Blubaugh and Gary Johnston in ChCh in a prejudicial and authoritarian manner. These two instances, if true, may indicate that he doesn't understand what huge effort it will take if the fellowship moved away from the current dictatorship style to something more of a consensus style. Just a quick comment about Steve Blubaugh. He was in the east for many years. Steve cut himself off over here. He announced that his mission was to find out why people were leaving the fellowship. He vanished and those I talked to knew nothing of where he was. I am quite surprised to find he is in New Zealand. Don't know what his agenda was after he arrived there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 9:16:57 GMT -5
That's ironic because that is one of the primary things he has been campaigning against. Regardless, it is worthwhile examining. We do have an allegation that he refused baptism of man who one individual would consider as eligible. He also allegedly cut off Steve Blubaugh and Gary Johnston in ChCh in a prejudicial and authoritarian manner. These two instances, if true, may indicate that he doesn't understand what huge effort it will take if the fellowship moved away from the current dictatorship style to something more of a consensus style. Just a quick comment about Steve Blubaugh. He was in the east for many years. Steve cut himself off over here. He announced that his mission was to find out why people were leaving the fellowship. He vanished and those I talked to knew nothing of where he was. I am quite surprised to find he is in New Zealand. Don't know what his agenda was after he arrived there. He is not in NZ. That was in 2007. I met him there then and spent some pleasant time with him. He has been back in the US for quite some time now, working. He hasn't been difficult to find, but I suppose it depends on where you look.
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Post by quizzer on Feb 10, 2014 11:27:15 GMT -5
Just a quick comment about Steve Blubaugh. He was in the east for many years. Steve cut himself off over here. He announced that his mission was to find out why people were leaving the fellowship. He vanished and those I talked to knew nothing of where he was. I am quite surprised to find he is in New Zealand. Don't know what his agenda was after he arrived there. He is not in NZ. That was in 2007. I met him there then and spent some pleasant time with him. He has been back in the US for quite some time now, working. He hasn't been difficult to find, but I suppose it depends on where you look. Steve isn't off the radar, at all. He's usually happy to communicate with folks, and seems to be very happy with his new lifestyle. I understand that a number of friends stay in touch with him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 11:54:34 GMT -5
He is not in NZ. That was in 2007. I met him there then and spent some pleasant time with him. He has been back in the US for quite some time now, working. He hasn't been difficult to find, but I suppose it depends on where you look. Steve isn't off the radar, at all. He's usually happy to communicate with folks, and seems to be very happy with his new lifestyle. I understand that a number of friends stay in touch with him. There was a point where he was so mentally exhausted he was basically experiencing a breakdown so he wouldn't have been so outgoing back then. He was undergoing recovery when I met him in NZ. He seems to be in pretty good health and happy today.
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Post by snow on Feb 10, 2014 12:49:11 GMT -5
Why is what is happening to GT important? The story of what is happening to him isn't much different from many of the other stories we've heard. It's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up, asked questions and got slapped for it.
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Post by mdm on Feb 10, 2014 13:33:45 GMT -5
One of the rebuttals is that Graham is right in principle, but wrong in how he presented it. That is nearly always part of the cheapest kind of 2x2 justification of expulsion -- In reality, it is very very very seldom that critical concern is unfounded. The only other justification that 2x2ism comes up with sometimes is that "You don't understand all the facts" -- Which of course NO ONE ever does understand ALL the facts -- None of us are God. However, we are all always responsible to deal with the facts that we do have at hand. 2x2ism is notorious at referring to facts that no one but they themselves have access to, and 'facts' that they refuse to share with others -- just expecting complete trust. This mindset is the heart of corruption. Another version of "you don't understand all the facts" is: "If you only knew the whole story, you would agree with the senior workers who made the decision." That was the answer we got from an Australian worker when we inquired about Stephen Shulz. However, we could not get "the whole story" from him, and finally he admitted he did not know it himself nor did he feel free to inquire about it.
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Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2014 13:37:14 GMT -5
Why is what is happening to GT important? The story of what is happening to him isn't much different from many of the other stories we've heard. It's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up, asked questions and got slapped for it. So what's happening to GT is not important because it's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up? I think every case is important. One thing that's different about Graham's experience is that he left a paper trail that spans at least eleven years, probably more.
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Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2014 13:51:50 GMT -5
Another version of "you don't understand all the facts" is: "If you only knew the whole story, you would agree with the senior workers who made the decision." That was the answer we got from an Australian worker when we inquired about Stephen Shulz. However, we could not get "the whole story" from him, and finally he admitted he did not know it himself nor did he feel free to inquire about it. Yes, Steve Shulz has been demonised. I think Steve professed in Graham Thompson's mission, so how Steve was treated would have been one more reason for Graham to conclude that the overseers are hopelessly off the rails. A couple of threads that discussed Steve Shulz's expulsion from the work: Steve Shultz .. fallout?David Leitch and Moral Clarity
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 10, 2014 14:25:18 GMT -5
Why is what is happening to GT important? The story of what is happening to him isn't much different from many of the other stories we've heard. It's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up, asked questions and got slapped for it. Because he is well respected by many people, and has resigned his position as worker Many are concerned as to why, and are seeking answers. It will be interesting to see how far-reaching this issue becomes. It obviously isn't confined to concerns in NZ, but around the world as well.
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Post by holdmyhand on Feb 10, 2014 16:15:16 GMT -5
Why is what is happening to GT important? The story of what is happening to him isn't much different from many of the other stories we've heard. It's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up, asked questions and got slapped for it. Snow here is some reasons the resignation of GT is different 1 He was a respected senior minister, not from the rank and file that is easy to dismissed and forget 2 When we despaired over decisions made by inept and dishonest leaders in the past we consoled ourselves that at least we had someone like GT who could bring much needed change 3 He has kept records and is willing to make them available, he is articulate, intelligent has integrity and he comes across as being humble 4 He is respected both in Australia and NZ, known to be willing to stand against all in leadership at personal cost to himself when he believes those in authority are wrong 5 When some issues have arisen I know he is the only worker that some people feel they can approach, he cares whereas the first consideration and sometimes only consideration of a lot of other workers is how taking up an issue will affect their standing within the hierarchy I am not suggesting he is infallible or trying to put him on a pedestal but just saying he stands head and shoulders above the remaining ruling class, for many he is the last hope for much needed reform, if his attempts fail I believe all who know Graham will realise it is not ever going to be possible to correct the problems in the fellowship
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Post by snow on Feb 10, 2014 17:40:07 GMT -5
Why is what is happening to GT important? The story of what is happening to him isn't much different from many of the other stories we've heard. It's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up, asked questions and got slapped for it. Because he is well respected by many people, and has resigned his position as worker Many are concerned as to why, and are seeking answers. It will be interesting to see how far-reaching this issue becomes. It obviously isn't confined to concerns in NZ, but around the world as well. I see. From what I've seen posted here though they are already turning on him. A few of them anyway. It seems to be a knee jerk reaction once the shock wears off. Go into damage control and decide that maybe the person wasn't as good as they thought. After all he left the perfect way, got to be something wrong with him! Same old same old really. I agree with you many are seeking answers, some seem to be past that and into the deny phase but others may continue asking and seeking. It will be interesting to see how far reaching this issue becomes. Lots are turning on him I think.
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Post by snow on Feb 10, 2014 17:43:29 GMT -5
Why is what is happening to GT important? The story of what is happening to him isn't much different from many of the other stories we've heard. It's just another one in a very long line of people that have spoke up, asked questions and got slapped for it. Snow here is some reasons the resignation of GT is different 1 He was a respected senior minister, not from the rank and file that is easy to dismissed and forget 2 When we despaired over decisions made by inept and dishonest leaders in the past we consoled ourselves that at least we had someone like GT who could bring much needed change 3 He has kept records and is willing to make them available, he is articulate, intelligent has integrity and he comes across as being humble 4 He is respected both in Australia and NZ, known to be willing to stand against all in leadership at personal cost to himself when he believes those in authority are wrong 5 When some issues have arisen I know he is the only worker that some people feel they can approach, he cares whereas the first consideration and sometimes only consideration of a lot of other workers is how taking up an issue will affect their standing within the hierarchy I am not suggesting he is infallible or trying to put him on a pedestal but just saying he stands head and shoulders above the remaining ruling class, for many he is the last hope for much needed reform, if his attempts fail I believe all who know Graham will realise it is not ever going to be possible to correct the problems in the fellowship He does sound like he was the last hope for change. However, I am already seeing people turning on him and believing they were just deceived into thinking he was all those things. I hope not and that he will bring reform through leaving.
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Post by quizzer on Feb 11, 2014 15:36:04 GMT -5
Because he is well respected by many people, and has resigned his position as worker Many are concerned as to why, and are seeking answers. It will be interesting to see how far-reaching this issue becomes. It obviously isn't confined to concerns in NZ, but around the world as well. I see. From what I've seen posted here though they are already turning on him. A few of them anyway. It seems to be a knee jerk reaction once the shock wears off. Go into damage control and decide that maybe the person wasn't as good as they thought. After all he left the perfect way, got to be something wrong with him! Same old same old really. I agree with you many are seeking answers, some seem to be past that and into the deny phase but others may continue asking and seeking. It will be interesting to see how far reaching this issue becomes. Lots are turning on him I think. I wouldn't doubt that folks will turn against him - after all, that's how the 2x2 system works. If you're not popular with the overseer, you're not popular. However, I hope that his family will support him and get him on his feet. If GT has been as influential as is written, I hope that some of the meeting folk will stay in touch with him.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 8, 2014 6:22:22 GMT -5
I was told (by someone who admitted they had never met Graham) that he has "taken on too much authority" and "overstepped his place". I bet the kids who suffered are glad that someone finally had the courage to address this collosal problem. That comment sounds typical of an old busybody.
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