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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 23:25:27 GMT -5
Yeah..... it is quite refreshing to talk with pastors/ministers openly about.... well.... anything that you want, and get honest, and scriptural answers. I know I have been really surprised at how open most pastors (and other Christians) are in addressing any issue that is brought up. Very refreshing, and it shows just how lacking the senior workers are in caring for the church when they refuse to discuss issues, but rather stonewall the members or give vague answers.
Not all are like that. I have heard of a few that will address the issues openly and honestly, even if the answers given aren't what the listener was hoping to hear.
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Post by rational on Feb 3, 2014 23:31:21 GMT -5
It seems that there is one major point of contention - the erroneous advice regarding questioning children suspected of abuse. Or perhaps I am missing other major issues.
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Post by fixit on Feb 3, 2014 23:38:29 GMT -5
It seems that there is one major point of contention - the erroneous advice regarding questioning children suspected of abuse. Or perhaps I am missing other major issues. Also the concept that friends and workers need to be told by the overseer how to respond to a criminal matter.
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Post by fixit on Feb 3, 2014 23:58:34 GMT -5
Now, when an overseer makes this statement: then please tell me, what possibly could Graham or anyone else ever say that would deserve a statement like that? When my children were 6 years old, then never said anything near like that. How can this overseer, man of God, ever be justified to say that to anyone or anywhere? When are we going to wake up? Its outrageous that a man of that caliber was given the rule over those 300 dear souls in Vietnam. Its a reflection on the men who appointed him, who teach that the ruling of such men is to take priority over "some deep conviction before God"! From the Dale Shultz letter:
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Post by rational on Feb 4, 2014 0:01:55 GMT -5
It seems that there is one major point of contention - the erroneous advice regarding questioning children suspected of abuse. Or perhaps I am missing other major issues. Also the concept that friends and workers need to be told by the overseer how to respond to a criminal matter. Hasn't this been one of the major complaints - the overseers are not telling the friends and workers anything? Telling the congregation how to deal with CSA would seem to be a giant step in the right direction. And now when an overseer says he is going to do that it is somehow wrong.
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Post by stevnz on Feb 4, 2014 0:07:10 GMT -5
Here is some correspondence which also includes a response. It seems that there is one major point of contention - the erroneous advice regarding questioning children suspected of abuse. Or perhaps I am missing other major issues. The blue font at wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/278/new-zealand-guidelines shows a number of issues that Graham Thompson identified in the guidelines.
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Post by rational on Feb 4, 2014 0:22:04 GMT -5
It seems that there is one major point of contention - the erroneous advice regarding questioning children suspected of abuse. Or perhaps I am missing other major issues. The blue font at wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/278/new-zealand-guidelines shows a number of issues that Graham Thompson identified in the guidelines. Thanks for the link. It would seem that giving guidance to report to the authorities would be crucial. This whole issue needs to be moved out of the spiritual arena and into the criminal arena.
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Post by stevnz on Feb 4, 2014 0:56:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. It would seem that giving guidance to report to the authorities would be crucial. This whole issue needs to be moved out of the spiritual arena and into the criminal arena. Alan's guidance on reporting to authorities can be found in his sermon at Pukekohe Convention December 2013 which was a public pronouncement, unlike his private guidance to workers. Some have observed that his comments were heading in the right direction but are unduly vague and the indirect terminology is too ambiguous. Now one other complication of sinful situations sometimes is it can reach the degree of criminality. Now we appreciate all the people in our fellowship. We appreciate the old ones, we appreciate the middle aged ones and the young ones too. The children are the future of the kingdom. Children need affection but it has to be appropriate affection. I ask you parents to tell your children, to instruct them, what is appropriate affection and what is inappropriate.
If a case of serious inappropriate attention does evolve, the matter of going to the police will need to be considered. The police are much better at sorting these situations out than they used to be, they know how to handle those situations. There is nobody better equipped than them to know when behaviour is criminal and when it is not. There are some situations where it is advisable to be put in the hands of the police. Now this is not a command from me. I couldn’t command on a matter like that but it is a matter which needs to be given consideration. In many different ways there could be situations where there is criminality involved. If crime should occur amongst us, we don’t want it to be covered up, we don’t want it to be hidden. Better judgement if it is brought out in the open. Otherwise it can become like a festering sore. You know what a festering sore is like. Eventually it needs to be lanced. And probably it needs to be lanced sooner rather than later.
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Post by lazarus66 on Feb 4, 2014 1:46:32 GMT -5
I did not read thru all of the posts, but it seems this guy is honest, and has probably laid out the problems before in other letters and verbally. This is the whole problem with the 2x2 "executives". They don't know how to make this open and fair for all to have a voice in. It is pretty clear in the bible that this should not be done behind closed doors.
I hope this guy can get a fair shake, but I doubt it. As someone eluded to, look a what they are doing in VN.
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Post by fixit on Feb 4, 2014 3:17:03 GMT -5
I hope this guy can get a fair shake, but I doubt it. As someone eluded to, look a what they are doing in VN. Here's the issue Graham Thompson has with the overseers (eldership), and its the same issue that has caused the split in the Vietnam church: And...
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Post by Gene on Feb 4, 2014 6:43:33 GMT -5
I can just feel the love from the VN overseer (ex). Maybe he could have asked himself "What would Christ have said to GT?" Didn't Jesus heal a dumb man?
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Post by stargazer on Feb 4, 2014 6:55:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. It would seem that giving guidance to report to the authorities would be crucial. This whole issue needs to be moved out of the spiritual arena and into the criminal arena. Alan's guidance on reporting to authorities can be found in his sermon at Pukekohe Convention December 2013 which was a public pronouncement, unlike his private guidance to workers. Some have observed that his comments were heading in the right direction but are unduly vague and the indirect terminology is too ambiguous. Now one other complication of sinful situations sometimes is it can reach the degree of criminality. Now we appreciate all the people in our fellowship. We appreciate the old ones, we appreciate the middle aged ones and the young ones too. The children are the future of the kingdom. Children need affection but it has to be appropriate affection. I ask you parents to tell your children, to instruct them, what is appropriate affection and what is inappropriate.
If a case of serious inappropriate attention does evolve, the matter of going to the police will need to be considered. The police are much better at sorting these situations out than they used to be, they know how to handle those situations. There is nobody better equipped than them to know when behaviour is criminal and when it is not. There are some situations where it is advisable to be put in the hands of the police. Now this is not a command from me. I couldn’t command on a matter like that but it is a matter which needs to be given consideration. In many different ways there could be situations where there is criminality involved. If crime should occur amongst us, we don’t want it to be covered up, we don’t want it to be hidden. Better judgement if it is brought out in the open. Otherwise it can become like a festering sore. You know what a festering sore is like. Eventually it needs to be lanced. And probably it needs to be lanced sooner rather than later. It seems to me that Alan Richardson DID take action on CSA. If it was inadequate, then it was inadequate but he did not sweep it aside. Also, it seems over the years, he's been one of equals in dealing with Australian matters. We can natter about "system", hierarchy....etc, etc, but my hat is off to Mr. Richardson for what appears to be an enormous amount of grace under intense pressure. Pressure from an articulate, persuasive member of his staff, resistance from an entrenched method of "eldership" in a vastly changed world, genuine interest for the welfare of the fellowship, boneheaded actions of his own peers, ....... What keeps the man sane?
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Post by rational on Feb 4, 2014 7:59:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. It would seem that giving guidance to report to the authorities would be crucial. This whole issue needs to be moved out of the spiritual arena and into the criminal arena. Alan's guidance on reporting to authorities can be found in his sermon at Pukekohe Convention December 2013 which was a public pronouncement, unlike his private guidance to workers. Some have observed that his comments were heading in the right direction but are unduly vague and the indirect terminology is too ambiguous. Seems to be the hallmark of worker's communication. I wonder what the difference is between serious and non-serious inappropriate attention? If this situation could simple be addressed by adults in an adult manner it would be done. Stop the PC vague questions. State the problems and the solutions.
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Post by rational on Feb 4, 2014 8:02:53 GMT -5
I can just feel the love from the VN overseer (ex). Maybe he could have asked himself "What would Christ have said to GT?" Didn't Jesus heal a dumb man? Although the meaning of the word 'dumb' is probably different from this use, like the leper, the individual was said to be healed but the disease remained rampant among humanity.
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