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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 9:39:18 GMT -5
Why are you being so nit picky Gene? Is Rat rubbing off on you. You know full well there are problems. Is that not why you are no longer a worker or go to meeting?
These are the delay tactics of workers, so that nothing ever get resolved. I guess you learned that lesson well, when when you were in the work.
As for you Rat, I don't think you have a fight in this battle. Do you really care what happens in "Truth"?
It is long past time for some accountability for the way things have been done.
This is a world wide problem? One that causes great concern and pain to those that do care about true fellowship of God's people.
For those who do not care about your fellow men, and about God's word being used to justify the acts of dishonest men, I guess you can continue to pull anyone down any who tries to bring honesty and TRUTH to light.
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Post by Gene on Feb 1, 2014 10:45:09 GMT -5
Why are you being so nit picky Gene? Is Rat rubbing off on you. You know full well there are problems. Is that not why you are no longer a worker or go to meeting? These are the delay tactics of workers, so that nothing ever get resolved. I guess you learned that lesson well, when when you were in the work. As for you Rat, I don't think you have a fight in this battle. Do you really care what happens in "Truth"? It is long past time for some accountability for the way things have been done. This is a world wide problem? One that causes great concern and pain to those that do care about true fellowship of God's people. For those who do not care about your fellow men, and about God's word being used to justify the acts of dishonest men, I guess you can continue to pull anyone down any who tries to bring honesty and TRUTH to light. Yes, I know there are problems--and being vague about them does nothing to help solve them. I have complete confidence that there are concrete actions and events underlying Graham's concerns -- my purpose in my post is to try to get those actions and events brought to the surface. Like the one about an overseer receiving a pension check. That's a great example of a concrete, actual event that can be addressed. I'm positive there are many more concrete examples like that -- but until they're brought out in the open, nothing can be done about them. No, I didn't leave the work or meetings because there were problems. Vagueness in a problem statement delays the resolution. When you go to the doctor, it's fine to start out with generalities ("it hurts") but at some point you need to move on to specifics ("i slammed a car door on my little finger on my right hand, so I saved it in this little bag, and I wonder if maybe you could reattach it for me"). You're quite harsh in your judgements against me, Marie, accusing me of learning delay tactics while I was in the work and practicing them now; not caring about my fellow man; pulling down those who try to bring truth to light. I think if you would read what I actually wrote rather than filtering it through your state of high emotion, you would see you have no basis for those accusation.
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Post by Gene on Feb 1, 2014 10:55:14 GMT -5
Gene, I agree. There is a lack of specifics and not much for anyone to respond to. This is over 2 years old. If there are specific complaints - state them. Patience patience fellas, it will be rewarded. Why didn't you two make the same complaint about the VN story as it emerged over a period of months and still isn't all out there? Complaint? It's not a complaint. It's giving a stuck car a little nudge to get out of the snowbank rather than continuing to spin its wheels. The VN case was moving along nicely -- the people involved were (and are) fully engaged in dialogue here on the board. I didn't think (and don't think) any nudge was needed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 10:58:20 GMT -5
Gene, I think what we are going to discover is that specific problems that Graham encountered is not what this is all about. Specific problems that he encountered which will come to light serve only as examples of what we are seeing on a broader scale right now. In fact, most of his concerns have already been discussed on this forum over and over again, so there will be nothing really new. After his specific examples come to light, we will all go back to what has already been posted as generalities as the most relevant information.
It is similar with VN. This is nothing new, nothing really surprising. The workers have not acted differently in VN all of a sudden. VN is not the "fault" of Darrel or Lyle or Dale. VN serves as an example systemic issues, not a few bad apples.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 11:02:40 GMT -5
Patience patience fellas, it will be rewarded. Why didn't you two make the same complaint about the VN story as it emerged over a period of months and still isn't all out there? Complaint? It's not a complaint. It's giving a stuck car a little nudge to get out of the snowbank rather than continuing to spin its wheels. The VN case was moving along nicely -- the people involved were (and are) fully engaged in dialogue here on the board. I didn't think (and don't think) any nudge was needed. I'll give you two dates Gene: May 23, 2013 First post on VN January 6, 2014 First post on Graham Thompson The VN story is still not fully told and at the rate it is going, it will be a year. The GT story is 3 weeks old. Which one needs the nudge? Probably neither, they are both unfolding as they should.
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Post by jondough on Feb 1, 2014 11:09:35 GMT -5
Why are you being so nit picky Gene? Is Rat rubbing off on you. You know full well there are problems. Is that not why you are no longer a worker or go to meeting? These are the delay tactics of workers, so that nothing ever get resolved. I guess you learned that lesson well, when when you were in the work. As for you Rat, I don't think you have a fight in this battle. Do you really care what happens in "Truth"? It is long past time for some accountability for the way things have been done. This is a world wide problem? One that causes great concern and pain to those that do care about true fellowship of God's people. For those who do not care about your fellow men, and about God's word being used to justify the acts of dishonest men, I guess you can continue to pull anyone down any who tries to bring honesty and TRUTH to light. Yes, I know there are problems--and being vague about them does nothing to help solve them. I have complete confidence that there are concrete actions and events underlying Graham's concerns -- my purpose in my post is to try to get those actions and events brought to the surface. Like the one about an overseer receiving a pension check. That's a great example of a concrete, actual event that can be addressed. I'm positive there are many more concrete examples like that -- but until they're brought out in the open, nothing can be done about them. No, I didn't leave the work or meetings because there were problems. Vagueness in a problem statement delays the resolution. When you go to the doctor, it's fine to start out with generalities ("it hurts") but at some point you need to move on to specifics ("i slammed a car door on my little finger on my right hand, so I saved it in this little bag, and I wonder if maybe you could reattach it for me"). You're quite harsh in your judgements against me, Marie, accusing me of learning delay tactics while I was in the work and practicing them now; not caring about my fellow man; pulling down those who try to bring truth to light. I think if you would read what I actually wrote rather than filtering it through your state of high emotion, you would see you have no basis for those accusation. I agree that specifics are very important. The sooner they are brought out, the sooner the "Church" can make a informed, spiritual decision. So yes, they need to be brought out as soon as possible or it will just go on and on........but......... Problems in the Church, and any type of social problems are not always that easy. I'll give you an example; We know that a lot of our problems stem from placing workers on a pedestal. Some people call it "worker worship". I won't get into how and why this has caused so many problems. My point is, lets say we all know a certain person that is a complete "worker worshiper". OK, thats, pretty vague. Why are they a "worker worshiper"?......ummmmm......you can just tell by the way they look at them, and talk to them......what do you mean?.......ummmmm.......you know, when they talk to us, they are just normal, but when a worker walks up, they completely change........huh?.......in what way?..........well....they never think a worker is wrong......how do you know that? - Did they say that?..........um, no but......... I think you get the point. Our (not) upside down hierarchy system is not always easy to put a finger on and point to the problem, but it has most definitely caused problems world wide. It sounds like Graham does have some specifics, but it may not be quite as specific as you may be looking for. Maybe it is......the story is not finished.
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Post by stargazer on Feb 1, 2014 11:48:38 GMT -5
Complaint? It's not a complaint. It's giving a stuck car a little nudge to get out of the snowbank rather than continuing to spin its wheels. The VN case was moving along nicely -- the people involved were (and are) fully engaged in dialogue here on the board. I didn't think (and don't think) any nudge was needed. I'll give you two dates Gene: May 23, 2013 First post on VN January 6, 2014 First post on Graham Thompson The VN story is still not fully told and at the rate it is going, it will be a year. The GT story is 3 weeks old. Which one needs the nudge? Probably neither, they are both unfolding as they should. come on. these are like serials. can't wait for the next
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 12:00:14 GMT -5
I'll give you two dates Gene: May 23, 2013 First post on VN January 6, 2014 First post on Graham Thompson The VN story is still not fully told and at the rate it is going, it will be a year. The GT story is 3 weeks old. Which one needs the nudge? Probably neither, they are both unfolding as they should. come on. these are like serials. can't wait for the next No need to get hooked on soaps when you can get the real thing! I think that the way these stories are coming out is a good way to go. The continuing piqued interest is only a by-product of the fact that readers prefer to read short bits of information at a time. If it came out in book form as some participants are effectively calling for, very few people would actually read and absorb it. Both the VN and GT stories are coming out in a good way. Kudos to all who are sharing the stories!
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Post by Gene on Feb 1, 2014 12:18:29 GMT -5
come on. these are like serials. can't wait for the next No need to get hooked on soaps when you can get the real thing! I think that the way these stories are coming out is a good way to go. The continuing piqued interest is only a by-product of the fact that readers prefer to read short bits of information at a time. If it came out in book form as some participants are effectively calling for, very few people would actually read and absorb it. Both the VN and GT stories are coming out in a good way. Kudos to all who are sharing the stories! I love the story-telling technique on the VN thread! "Today I tell you about..." And then, after that chapter, "tomorrow, I will tell you the story of ..." I'm totally serious- I find that technique interesting, captivating and highly effective!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 12:22:45 GMT -5
Gene, I am sorry if you think I am harsh on you. I am sick of excuses from anyone when it comes to problems in fellowship and how it is handled/not handled.
I spoke with L.S. for over and hour the other day about problems in fellowship and about some friends in his state of TX are ready to leave meeting because of the lack of action on problems that he has been made aware of. He was full of excuses. His favorite phase what "well we just don't know what to do sometimes." My answer to that was, where is your FAITH that God will lead and give you the right words to speak in DIFFICULT situations. I have heard PREACHED from the platform at every convention I have ever gone to, to have faith and trust in GOD. Are you going to tell me that workers can only preach a good line, and not follow their own preaching.
I do believe that all problems in "Truth" could be taken care of if those in power had humility and meekness and allowed the spirit to lead them.
LS did ask if I though it would help those who longer go to meeting if their struggles were validated. I assured him that I would love to hear from the workers who have turned their back on me and my family. That silence is deadly. I told him their would have to be humility on BOTH side to work things out. That is just my prospective. How do other feel?
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Post by Gene on Feb 1, 2014 12:25:38 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone who has gone back to old posts and began highlighting specifics and for the dialogue on whether specifics are important. My purpose in life is fulfilled.
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Post by Gene on Feb 1, 2014 12:28:33 GMT -5
Gene, I am sorry if you think I am harsh on you. I am sick of excuses from anyone when it comes to problems in fellowship and how it is handled/not handled. I spoke with L.S. for over and hour the other day about problems in fellowship and about some friends in his state of TX are ready to leave meeting because of the lack of action on problems that he has been made aware of. He was full of excuses. His favorite phase what "well we just don't know what to do sometimes." My answer to that was, where is your FAITH that God will lead and give you the right words to speak in DIFFICULT situations. I have heard PREACHED from the platform at every convention I have ever gone to, to have faith and trust in GOD. Are you going to tell me that workers can only preach a good line, and not follow their own preaching. I do believe that all problems in "Truth" could be taken care of if those in power had humility and meekness and allowed the spirit to lead them. LS did ask if I though it would help those who longer go to meeting if their struggles were validated. I assured him that I would love to hear from the workers who have turned their back on me and my family. That silence is deadly. I told him their would have to be humility on BOTH side to work things out. That is just my prospective. How do other feel? Apology accepted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 12:34:55 GMT -5
Gene, I am sorry if you think I am harsh on you. I am sick of excuses from anyone when it comes to problems in fellowship and how it is handled/not handled. I spoke with L.S. for over and hour the other day about problems in fellowship and about some friends in his state of TX are ready to leave meeting because of the lack of action on problems that he has been made aware of. He was full of excuses. His favorite phase what "well we just don't know what to do sometimes." My answer to that was, where is your FAITH that God will lead and give you the right words to speak in DIFFICULT situations. I have heard PREACHED from the platform at every convention I have ever gone to, to have faith and trust in GOD. Are you going to tell me that workers can only preach a good line, and not follow their own preaching. I do believe that all problems in "Truth" could be taken care of if those in power had humility and meekness and allowed the spirit to lead them. LS did ask if I though it would help those who longer go to meeting if their struggles were validated. I assured him that I would love to hear from the workers who have turned their back on me and my family. That silence is deadly. I told him their would have to be humility on BOTH side to work things out. That is just my prospective. How do other feel? I'm a little surprised that LS had to ask if it was a good idea to validate struggles. I'm only a "little" surprised because it appears to be worker policy to deliberately avoid validating struggles of any sort, let alone church problems. Workers who do that are outliers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 12:50:51 GMT -5
Clearday, I don't understand your surprise. If things are to change at all there has to be an acknowledgement of a problem. That would be a big change. 6 months after we left meeting our elder text me and wanted me to tell him what had gone wrong. I text him back and said REALLY! The workers certainly knew what had gone wrong and I had pleaded with them to have a meeting with our elder and us.
I hope LS takes my answer seriously and contacts some ex's he knows. I hope he contacts the friends in his state and makes things right with them. I have no desire to see more faithful friends that understand the spirit leave meeting. I miss fellowship with those of like faith. I just do not know how to trust others when it comes to going to meeting or any other church.
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Post by rational on Feb 1, 2014 13:13:09 GMT -5
Why are you being so nit picky Gene? Is Rat rubbing off on you. You know full well there are problems. Is that not why you are no longer a worker or go to meeting? These are the delay tactics of workers, so that nothing ever get resolved. I guess you learned that lesson well, when when you were in the work. Requesting specifics is a delaying tactic? Is it better to act on vague and unspecified claims? I probably don't care as much as you do but because of that emotions do not cloud my view. The letter in question was filled with unspecified complaints. It was from two years ago. Complaining that someone has not responded to such a letter is very understandable when looked at without the emotional component. This is no doubt true but bringing up the various grievances in a vague way adds little, if any, value. Is this a question or a statement? What is a world wide problem? What, specifically is the problem that you are addressing? If god's word justify the dishonest works that sounds like something that needs to be addressed with the source of god's word. I don't see that either Gene or I tried to pull anyone down - just trying to get the specifics of the problems specified in less than 30 pages spread out over 2+ years.
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Post by rational on Feb 1, 2014 13:16:11 GMT -5
Vagueness in a problem statement delays the resolution. When you go to the doctor, it's fine to start out with generalities ("it hurts") but at some point you need to move on to specifics ("i slammed a car door on my little finger on my right hand, so I saved it in this little bag, and I wonder if maybe you could reattach it for me"). Good example!
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Post by maggsmagpie on Feb 1, 2014 14:52:04 GMT -5
Nothing seems to change in 2x2ism. The power of overseer's never seems to change. They are not beyond cover up like the senior worker given a one way ticket out of the country before the law caught up. There is no incentive for us ex 2x2ism to return. What happened in my family has not changed when overseer's and some senior workers stop their power game 2x2ism might align more with thr life of Jesus. maggsmagpie
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 15:17:21 GMT -5
I do believe that all problems in "Truth" could be taken care of if those in power had humility and meekness and allowed the spirit to lead them. Thanks for putting it so succinctly Marie.
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Post by rational on Feb 1, 2014 16:52:46 GMT -5
I do believe that all problems in "Truth" could be taken care of if those in power had humility and meekness and allowed the spirit to lead them. This reminds me of those who felt that the CSA offenders would be taken care of if they would allow the spirit to guide them. Perhaps if they were prayed for. And then moved to another location. I think most, if not all, of the problems could be taken care of if people interacted as adults and faced up to the problems.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 19:21:01 GMT -5
I do believe that all problems in "Truth" could be taken care of if those in power had humility and meekness and allowed the spirit to lead them. This reminds me of those who felt that the CSA offenders would be taken care of if they would allow the spirit to guide them. Perhaps if they were prayed for. And then moved to another location. I think most, if not all, of the problems could be taken care of if people interacted as adults and faced up to the problems. Who are "those who felt that the CSA offenders would be taken care of if they would allow the spirit to guide them"?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 19:41:02 GMT -5
The question I would like answered is this: Does Alan Richardson know of people who have committed CSA or other indictable offences and has not gone to the police about? And does GT know that Alan knows of these people?
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Post by rational on Feb 1, 2014 21:27:01 GMT -5
This reminds me of those who felt that the CSA offenders would be taken care of if they would allow the spirit to guide them. Perhaps if they were prayed for. And then moved to another location. I think most, if not all, of the problems could be taken care of if people interacted as adults and faced up to the problems. Who are "those who felt that the CSA offenders would be taken care of if they would allow the spirit to guide them"? Those who talked with people like IH and decided he had repented and sent him on to other fields. The parents in MI who, instead of reporting the incident, decided it would be OK if the offending worker was simply moved out of the area. Various priests in the Catholic church who were said to have repented, who had prayed to god for guidance and forgiveness, and then sent to a new parish with any warning to the congregation.
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 22:50:00 GMT -5
The question I would like answered is this: Does Alan Richardson know of people who have committed CSA or other indictable offences and has not gone to the police about? And does GT know that Alan knows of these people? Very often the victim doesn't want the crime to be reported to police. To force the matter against the wishes of the victim would be to add further abuse to the victim. You might find the following statement of Alan R interesting:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 23:01:58 GMT -5
How does the above sit with current NZ law?
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 23:59:04 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 0:32:51 GMT -5
Who are "those who felt that the CSA offenders would be taken care of if they would allow the spirit to guide them"? Those who talked with people like IH and decided he had repented and sent him on to other fields. The parents in MI who, instead of reporting the incident, decided it would be OK if the offending worker was simply moved out of the area. Various priests in the Catholic church who were said to have repented, who had prayed to god for guidance and forgiveness, and then sent to a new parish with any warning to the congregation. While I agree with your statements for the cause of the coverups, that's not the same as the "guiding of the spirit". That is called "being bamboozled by the perps". Frankly, this is what I see as being the cause of most of the cover ups. The perps convinced the hapless overseers/bishops that they won't ever do it again. Nothing spiritual at all about it, just a con game by some very skilled cons.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 0:37:28 GMT -5
From a moral perspective, old cases where the victims are adults is a different matter than where the victims are children. There is no excuse whatsoever for not reporting any suspected abuse, sexual or otherwise, of a child. Whether Alan or Graham know of these sorts of cases is unknown. You can be sure that WINGS and others would be all over it if it was known that there was a child involved.
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Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 3:36:50 GMT -5
I spoke with L.S. for over and hour the other day about problems in fellowship and about some friends in his state of TX are ready to leave meeting because of the lack of action on problems that he has been made aware of. He was full of excuses. His favorite phase what "well we just don't know what to do sometimes." I think Lyle is a good man but as an overseer he's part of an old boys network and its very hard for an overseer to break ranks and make a stand. Lyle was involved in nudging a young man out of the fellowship for speaking against exclusivity, but he seems powerless to nudge his fellow overseers to openly reject deception and immorality. We have a couple in Texas who will soon be gone if Lyle and his fellow overseers are unable or unwilling to make a stand for righteousness. Their concerns are the following: Dare to be a Daniel, Dare to stand alone! Dare to have a purpose firm! Dare to make it known.
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