Victorian Worker Abuse Discussed On Facebook

[fixit]

CSA in the Victoria Australia church has left victims inside and outside the fellowship, and some perpetrators still at large.

There are friends and workers and post-professing people who would love to help in any way they can, yet the culture of fear and secrecy has made progress slow. As a result victims continue to suffer in silence, not getting the help and support they need, and some have fallen into despair and suicide.

The harboring of child sexual offenders in the church is a disgrace, and even more especially when they are in the ministry. It should be a priority for the ministry and the church to get child sexual abusers off the platform and out of childrens homes, and also to provide the best possible support for CSA victims.

It was heartening to see some discussion on the Wings Facebook page yesterday (you have to login to Facebook for this link to work):


Wings BTS Link.

[sharingtheriches]

Am I interpreting her right that she has contact with the Commission on CSA? Or has she reported this to that particular body of authority?

[snow]

What is wrong with these people! I feel sick. When will this church get it! When will they understand their children are being targeted and molested and they are sitting back and doing nothing! It's not like this issue hasn't been brought to their attention.

[fixit]

I just now edited the OP to add a link to the Wings forum, and I also added some Facebook posts that I had missed.

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2013 13:19:13 GMT -5 snow said:

What is wrong with these people! I feel sick. When will this church get it! When will they understand their children are being targeted and molested and they are sitting back and doing nothing! It's not like this issue hasn't been brought to their attention.

Worth noting these are allegations that relate to events of three decades prior and have not been made known publically up until now.

If 'these people' are the Victorian worker group then clearly from the public stance of D Leitch a few weeks ago there is no learning and no likelihood of this changing without external pressure applied.

If 'these people' are the Victorian friends then who really knows what they are actually aware of, what they think or what they are doing to change things. There may be a lot lower awareness of the CSA issues amongst a group so effective at self-censureship than we assume. Most importantly it seems to me the only real way we (outside of the group) can tell where they stand is if there is open rebellion. As far as I am aware that is a pretty rare phenomonem in the group. It may be the case that Victorian friends are applying pressure to the Victorian worker group and this is not sufficient to promote change. Who do they turn to given no worker group world wide has taken an adequate stance on CSA?

Personally I think 'these people' should be applied to all members of the group worldwide. If there is a problem in Victoria it is just as much the responsibility of a professing family in Calgary, Canada as a professing family from Colac, Victoria. The idea of fiefdoms, overseers, areas is one of the mechanisms that is supporting a 'pedophile friendly' environment in the group. All friends worldwide should tell their elder to tell their worker to tell their overseer, sort Victoria out!

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2013 16:22:52 GMT -5 @passerby said:

Oct 26, 2013 13:19:13 GMT -5 snow said:

What is wrong with these people! I feel sick. When will this church get it! When will they understand their children are being targeted and molested and they are sitting back and doing nothing! It's not like this issue hasn't been brought to their attention.

Worth noting these are allegations that relate to events of three decades prior and have not been made known publically up until now.

If 'these people' are the Victorian worker group then clearly from the public stance of D Leitch a few weeks ago there is no learning and no likelihood of this changing without external pressure applied.

If 'these people' are the Victorian friends then who really knows what they are actually aware of, what they think or what they are doing to change things. There may be a lot lower awareness of the CSA issues amongst a group so effective at self-censureship than we assume. Most importantly it seems to me the only real way we (outside of the group) can tell where they stand is if there is open rebellion. As far as I am aware that is a pretty rare phenomonem in the group. It may be the case that Victorian friends are applying pressure to the Victorian worker group and this is not sufficient to promote change. Who do they turn to given no worker group world wide has taken an adequate stance on CSA?

Personally I think 'these people' should be applied to all members of the group worldwide. If there is a problem in Victoria it is just as much the responsibility of a professing family in Calgary, Canada as a professing family from Colac, Victoria. The idea of fiefdoms, overseers, areas is one of the mechanisms that is supporting a 'pedophile friendly' environment in the group. All friends worldwide should tell their elder to tell their worker to tell their overseer, sort Victoria out!

True, the allegations relate to offenses up to 5 decades ago. The sole named alleged offender, Jack Trigg, was born in the early 1900's so is almost certainly long deceased. There are at least a couple of other alleged offenders, one of whom is still in the work. According to Ms.Smit's report he is on a foreign posting (no surprise there) so sooner or later he will be due to come home for his home visit. From what I gather from the Facebook story, all alleged abusers have been reported to authorities so time will tell. If there are other victims, hopefully they will be in a position to report as well.

As far as "they" needing to learn, they are learning......maybe not as quickly as we would like to see but there are a few signs. As posted in the WINGS section of the TMB, there are a couple of overseer guidelines for CSA which, while far from perfect, are better than nothing and provides proof that "they" are thinking about this subject and doing something about it. These guidelines can be view on WINGS: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/letters-to-friends-and-workers/

You point out something quite important passerby. That is the "fiefdom" problem. While North America is informally organized into two groups, apparently Australian states are more autonomous and Victoria in particular. That small insular system can allow a few areas to be poorly operated even if larger areas are being well run. It's difficult for workers in other parts of the world to make changes in some places.

[snow]

Oct 26, 2013 16:22:52 GMT -5 @passerby said:

Oct 26, 2013 13:19:13 GMT -5 snow said:

What is wrong with these people! I feel sick. When will this church get it! When will they understand their children are being targeted and molested and they are sitting back and doing nothing! It's not like this issue hasn't been brought to their attention.

Worth noting these are allegations that relate to events of three decades prior and have not been made known publically up until now.

If 'these people' are the Victorian worker group then clearly from the public stance of D Leitch a few weeks ago there is no learning and no likelihood of this changing without external pressure applied.

If 'these people' are the Victorian friends then who really knows what they are actually aware of, what they think or what they are doing to change things. There may be a lot lower awareness of the CSA issues amongst a group so effective at self-censureship than we assume. Most importantly it seems to me the only real way we (outside of the group) can tell where they stand is if there is open rebellion. As far as I am aware that is a pretty rare phenomonem in the group. It may be the case that Victorian friends are applying pressure to the Victorian worker group and this is not sufficient to promote change. Who do they turn to given no worker group world wide has taken an adequate stance on CSA?

Personally I think 'these people' should be applied to all members of the group worldwide. If there is a problem in Victoria it is just as much the responsibility of a professing family in Calgary, Canada as a professing family from Colac, Victoria. The idea of fiefdoms, overseers, areas is one of the mechanisms that is supporting a 'pedophile friendly' environment in the group. All friends worldwide should tell their elder to tell their worker to tell their overseer, sort Victoria out!

I agree, the friends worldwide need to make a stand. Those from wings have done that. I am glad that it has started. However, they need to get rid of these people that are roadblocks to getting this kind of thing stopped once and for all. The current mindset is a haven for those who are predators because they know very few are willing to risk their necks and make a stand. If all the friends united what could the workers do? They wouldn't have a religion anymore.

[Deleted]

We commend Carol for her post on facebook, and the great work she is doing in mental health. My Wife and I remember Carol and Ian, when they came to the same meeting we went to, when they were small children. We also of course had contact with Carol's Parents Charlie and Ivy. It is sad that events that took place,became responsible in causing Ian to suicide. Although we lived in the same locality as Ian at the time we had no knowledge of what was taking place. We thought that everything was so pure. It has come as a shock to us, to find out that this was not so. We wonder how much blame the 2x2 Church will accept for what took place.

We applaud what Carol is doing, and hope it will bring change in Victoria. This is the place we love, as we grew up there. We have wonderful memories, and to some extent they are tarnished by what we are finding out now.

[Deleted]

[quote author="@clearday" source="/post/555256/thread" timestamp="1382825467True, the allegations relate to offenses up to 5 decades ago. The sole named alleged offender, Jack Trigg, was born in the early 1900's so is almost certainly long deceased. There are at least a couple of other alleged offenders, one of whom is still in the work. According to Ms.Smit's report he is on a foreign posting (no surprise there) so sooner or later he will be due to come home for his home visit. From what I gather from the Facebook story, all alleged abusers have been reported to authorities so time will tell. If there are other victims, hopefully they will be in a position to report as well.

As far as "they" needing to learn, they are learning......maybe not as quickly as we would like to see but there are a few signs. As posted in the WINGS section of the TMB, there are a couple of overseer guidelines for CSA which, while far from perfect, are better than nothing and provides proof that "they" are thinking about this subject and doing something about it. These guidelines can be view on WINGS: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/letters-to-friends-and-workers/

You point out something quite important passerby. That is the "fiefdom" problem. While North America is informally organized into two groups, apparently Australian states are more autonomous and Victoria in particular. That small insular system can allow a few areas to be poorly operated even if larger areas are being well run. It's difficult for workers in other parts of the world to make changes in some places.[/quote]

I suggest a reasonable expectation for the rate of change within the group re CSA would be at pace with the community it exists within and at pace with their 'peers'. In both cases David Leitch's public comments put the group considerable behind the pace in Vcitoria, Australia. Whilst signs of change are hopeful the rate of change is unacceptable.

Small insular, dwindling population 'fiefdoms' are definitely problematic (apply 'island theory' to culture). Bigger 'fiefdoms' are not the solution, however. Policy and process are.

For example, a decent policy would be when allegations are made against a worker they are reported to authorities, the worker is stood down, the worker is immediately returned to the region where these allegations are made and takes part in their investigation. This should have happened in this case, should be happening now. A decent process would ensure the if David Leitch was not following policy, effective pressure could be applied to enforce the policy from within (Victorian friends/workers) or without (friends/workers from areas outside Victoria).

Right now it seems to me if David Leitch was to deal with CSA in a manner consumate with where his community is at, he would be adopting an approach that would put Victorian 2by2s at the forefront of the world in terms of CSA. The alternative is for the friends in Victoria to rise up in some manner and enforce change themselves - essentially a rebellion. Given David is a known conservative amongst a group known for its conservatism these seem like terribly high hurdles to jump to achieve what is only a decent and moral approach to the issue of CSA. Do we blame Victorians for this, for the way this system operates worldwide?

Its a worldwide problem. Nothing makes that clearer than right now a worker accused of CSA from Victoria is labouring in some foreign country. Whose job is it to let the friends and workers over there have this knowledge? What if that worker is labouring in a third world country where the opportunities for CSA are higher. Whoose reponsibility is it to let the ordinary families and children there know? If a local worker came to you and ask you to take a visiting worker from Victoria into your home, would you? If a conservative professing family with children, who you knew would not be aware of all the allegations on the net, took a visiting worker from Victoria into their home would you feel responsible to let them know the situation?

It is even entirely feasible that the active worker these allegations refer to may want desperately to return and take part in an investigation to clear his name but not be allowed to!

The 'fiefdoms' not only support unchecked power, they provide a rationale that excuses all workers and all friends from taking responsiblity for the system they are a part of.

[Deleted]

I would agree that Victoria is a "fiefdom". We need to go back and look at history. The fiefdom was set up by Bill Carroll as ruler, who to some extent was out of step with the rest of the World. Hence the problems that occured back in the 1950's. While DL tries to preserve this fiefdom there will be problems.
Willie Donaldson tried to get rid of the fiefdom , but unfortunately remanents have remained.

[snow]

What exactly is it that prevents them from responding in a way that would protect the children and get the predator behind bars? Is it religious beliefs? If so, isn't that rather ironic?

[fixit]

Oct 26, 2013 22:02:28 GMT -5 snow said:

What exactly is it that prevents them from responding in a way that would protect the children and get the predator behind bars? Is it religious beliefs? If so, isn't that rather ironic?

Here's a clue from the OP:

Please do not keep any 'secrets' do not let any 'bully' that 'You will go to hell by speaking out' another phrase often quoted...and 'If a brother takes a brother to court', he will be doomed for hell!'

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2013 22:02:28 GMT -5 snow said:

What exactly is it that prevents them from responding in a way that would protect the children and get the predator behind bars? Is it religious beliefs? If so, isn't that rather ironic?

Exclusivism produces the belief that people's faith must be preserved at any cost. It also creates denial that these things occur.

[fixit]

Exclusivism is a form of idolatry, the worship of a religious system more than the worship of God.

God-worshippers wouldn't fall into sexual immorality or child sexual abuse, but system-worshippers lack the power of the Christ within.

The faith of God-worshippers is a faithfulness to God and their fellow men, while the faith of system-worshippers is a belief system, a form of Godliness that is lacking in power.

[snow]

Oct 27, 2013 0:04:20 GMT -5 fixit said:

Oct 26, 2013 22:02:28 GMT -5 snow said:

What exactly is it that prevents them from responding in a way that would protect the children and get the predator behind bars? Is it religious beliefs? If so, isn't that rather ironic?

Here's a clue from the OP:

Please do not keep any 'secrets' do not let any 'bully' that 'You will go to hell by speaking out' another phrase often quoted...and 'If a brother takes a brother to court', he will be doomed for hell!'

Religion in it's current form needs to be re-evaluated then. If your religion is more important than protecting an abused child then imo your religion needs to be redefined.

[snow]

Oct 27, 2013 3:27:42 GMT -5 fixit said:

Exclusivism is a form of idolatry, the worship of a religious system more than the worship of God.

God-worshippers wouldn't fall into sexual immorality or child sexual abuse, but system-worshippers lack the power of the Christ within.

The faith of God-worshippers is a faithfulness to God and their fellow men, while the faith of system-worshippers is a belief system, a form of Godliness that is lacking in power.

However, it seems that once a formal religion is formed, then we see it devolve into a system worshippers mode. You cannot have a hierarchy and hope to have people not worship that hierarchy over time. Is there a church on earth that does not have a degree of 'system worship'?

[fixit]

I moved my last post to a new thread: Is there a church without "system worship"?

Best we keep this thread on the subject of "Victorian Worker Abuse Discussed On Facebook".