tom
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Post by tom on Apr 23, 2015 14:57:41 GMT -5
I blame a screwed up person for committing an act of CSA against a child in a group. When it happens multiple times by the SAME person, the GROUP and its leadership have to shoulder some blame, don't they? If it had been reported to the police after the first instance it wouldnt have happened multiple times!!! The PARENTS are the ones you should be pointing at.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 17:26:41 GMT -5
There is a belief that not being in the fellowship means you will face a lost eternity when you die. So parents feel that challenging the TRUE Servants leads to a lost eternity. What parent out there wants to face a lost eternity for having a wrong spirit towards a TRUE SERVANT??
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Post by mdm on Apr 23, 2015 20:59:31 GMT -5
I blame a screwed up person for committing an act of CSA against a child in a group. When it happens multiple times by the SAME person, the GROUP and its leadership have to shoulder some blame, don't they? If it had been reported to the police after the first instance it wouldnt have happened multiple times!!! The PARENTS are the ones you should be pointing at. I have heard of several instances of the child reporting abuse to a parent, and the parent dismissing it either because of not believing the child or because of the fear that others would not believe them. Yes, the parents have the responsibility to take the child seriously and report the offence, but the ministry also has the responsibility to actively promote an environment where parents won't fear rejection by the group if they report abuse. And what can be done when the offending worker is removed from the country where offence took place and is allowed to remain active in the work, and his offence is hidden? For example, I know a worker who was sent back home from a country he was laboring in for "inappropriate behavior with a teenager." He is still in the work in his home country. Is it right for the ministry to keep him in its ranks and keep sending him into people's homes and to conventions as a trusted and respected minister? Do they have any responsibility toward those who are receiving him into their homes right now, completely unaware of the reason he is back in his home country? Do you really believe that the ministry doesn't have any responsibility when known offenders are knowingly sent to people's homes and allowed to come to conventions? Do you really believe that the ministry that excommunicated Dale Gardener has no responsibility in how the issue of CSA is being handled in the fellowship?
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Post by rational on Apr 23, 2015 22:18:57 GMT -5
There is a belief that not being in the fellowship means you will face a lost eternity when you die. So parents feel that challenging the TRUE Servants leads to a lost eternity. What parent out there wants to face a lost eternity for having a wrong spirit towards a TRUE SERVANT?? You bring up a good point. Religion demands that blind obedience that led Abraham to be willing to kill his son, that killed hundreds in Jonestown, that often leads parents to kill their children in order to 'save' them. It explains why people can believe that the same people who have abused/molested their children somehow control their entrance into heaven. People are willing to trade the well being of their children in the here and now for a vague promise of a future reward.
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Post by rational on Apr 23, 2015 22:43:59 GMT -5
I have heard of several instances of the child reporting abuse to a parent, and the parent dismissing it either because of not believing the child or because of the fear that others would not believe them. Yes, the parents have the responsibility to take the child seriously and report the offence, but the ministry also has the responsibility to actively promote an environment where parents won't fear rejection by the group if they report abuse. ]/quote]A ministry where the ministers are chosen by god but are criminals? That is a difficult position to take. If the offense is reported to the authorities the criminal could well be taken out of circulation. Bring charges against the individuals hiding the crime is a step in the right direction.Is there a reason why this person has not been reported? How many people, like yourself, know of the crimes?It is not right for anyone who knows or suspects a case of child abuse not to report. Do you believe that people who know about the crime have any less responsibility to report the criminal?Excommunication is nothing more than a way to control the behavior of members. If people believe in the organization/system and they also believe they can be excluded from gaining eternal life by the action taken by the organization/system there is little that can be done. The fear of losing out on eternal life drives people to do and accept things that are beyond belief.
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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2015 0:34:02 GMT -5
I blame a screwed up person for committing an act of CSA against a child in a group. When it happens multiple times by the SAME person, the GROUP and its leadership have to shoulder some blame, don't they? If it had been reported to the police after the first instance it wouldnt have happened multiple times!!! The PARENTS are the ones you should be pointing at. There are people in the fellowship who don't believe such evil behaviour is possible in the fellowship and that puts them off guard. This is largely because they have been taught that. It's in the professing culture. Also in the culture is a powerful inclination to cover up anything that's not pretty, and that helps to create a haven for sexual predators. Pointing at parents won't solve the problem. The whole ministry and fellowship needs to wise up in order to minimise the risk to the fellowship's children. It's also part of the fellowship's culture that folks rely on the ministry to take the lead. I expect most of the friends would consult the workers before reporting a worker/friend CSA offender to the police.
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tom
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by tom on Apr 24, 2015 5:17:06 GMT -5
Yes I DO understand the problems and difficulties people face re reporting but I think we should put our efforts into getting people to report to authorities rather than workers and if they did this so many things would be taken care of and the responsibility wouldnt fall on the workers. Anyway...this has been gone over and over.Interestingly I dont know one person in my group of 'friends' who thinks that reporting a worker would lead to a lost eternity or that it should be covered up. Im not saying there aren't people who think like that but I think its the minority. The workers are limited in the action they can take if people are not prepared for the authorities to be involved.
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Post by rational on Apr 24, 2015 7:05:51 GMT -5
Yes I DO understand the problems and difficulties people face re reporting but I think we should put our efforts into getting people to report to authorities rather than workers and if they did this so many things would be taken care of and the responsibility wouldnt fall on the workers. Anyway...this has been gone over and over.Interestingly I dont know one person in my group of 'friends' who thinks that reporting a worker would lead to a lost eternity or that it should be covered up. Im not saying there aren't people who think like that but I think its the minority. The workers are limited in the action they can take if people are not prepared for the authorities to be involved. tom, I am with you 100% on this. Workers and the F&W organization make great scape goats and there can be many reasons raised why parents should bot be expected to take the responsibility of protecting their children. It needs to be made clear that this is a criminal act and needs to be reported to the people who deal with criminals. Once that happens address the spiritual side is that is what people want to do. Addressing only the spiritual side has not had great success in solving the problem.
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Post by mdm on Apr 24, 2015 9:03:28 GMT -5
Yes I DO understand the problems and difficulties people face re reporting but I think we should put our efforts into getting people to report to authorities rather than workers and if they did this so many things would be taken care of and the responsibility wouldnt fall on the workers. Anyway...this has been gone over and over.Interestingly I dont know one person in my group of 'friends' who thinks that reporting a worker would lead to a lost eternity or that it should be covered up. Im not saying there aren't people who think like that but I think its the minority. The workers are limited in the action they can take if people are not prepared for the authorities to be involved. I agree that the effort needs to be made in getting people to report abuse to authorities. My point is that the workers need to be part of this solution - make an effort to tell people openly and proactively that they need to report abuse to authorities. Why? Because they have discouraged people from reporting abuse and they have responsibility to undo this teaching. I think you've said you are from NZ. Now, NZ friends may be more enlightened than the friends in the rest of the world, especially after AR addressing the issue. But that does not reflect the rest of the professing world. In recent years, some of our friends did not do anything about suspected child abuse (not by a worker) "because the workers always take the side of the perpetrator." Obviously, this illustrates what Fixit says:"It's also part of the fellowship's culture that folks rely on the ministry to take the lead. I expect most of the friends would consult the workers before reporting a worker/friend CSA offender to the police." This culture is yet to be changed - it's well and alive. Or, just couple of years ago, we had a worker sit at our dining table and tell us that the older brothers "used to" think that CSA should be handled within the church, not reported (this thinking obviously had to change after JF was charged with not reporting CSA), and that she personally still believes that. Or, several years ago, when talking about IH, a European worker told us that "some in the Way think that we should expose each other’s sin, but we don’t agree with that. That is not our doctrine. Our doctrine is to cover each other’s sin,” citing the example of Noah in Genesis 9. This was said to us by the brother of an overseer, someone who knows very well what the official church doctrine is on these issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 10:07:30 GMT -5
.....................................................................
You know, people who say they don't attend conventions because of a failed person are really admitting their own failures. It isn't what "he did" or "she said" but rather they find it a problem to sit through all that boring and confronting Gospel stuff.
ehum...
Bert, is this how you feel about convention, -that YOU find it is "boring and confronting Gospel stuff?"
Then you extrapolate that to how other people feel?
Otherwise why else would the thought even enter your mind?
Well looks like some people go because some write about how good the convention food was/is, so they don't mind the boredom, the food is worth it, spiritually and naturally.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 12:35:01 GMT -5
In Barry Barkley country, people aren't accustomed to reporting saints let alone servants to the law. I was lucky that I never was molested by a saint or servant. But not everyone is lucky. Tom, I can't vouch for your area but I will vouch for most of the US east of the MS River. Workers have been put on pedestals by SOME saints and they or others have paid a price for this. Never put ANY worker, priest, preacher, chaplain etc. on a pedestal.
I think parents need to keep little kids out of the worker's room also. Some little kids don't know their limits either. Parents need to keep their eyes on kids and not let them be on one with ANY stranger such as a construction worker etc.. Some professing parents "farm out" their children to other friends for the weekend and I don't think that is a good thing. The ONLY reason I focus on workers and not other adults is the fact that this board is geared towards those with past and present experience in truth. If ANYONE says or thinks I believe CSA only occurs in "truth" they are as crazy as they look!!!! Humans all have certain lustful tendencies if they act upon them and don't die to such lusts. You never know where a pervert could lurk. He may be a sweet man who does good things for kids. He may volunteer in the community and serve his country in uniform. Be careful with the little ones. CSA is real. You never know who might be a pervert and don't give the pervert a chance to operate. Keep an eye on your kids especially if you have one and there wouldn't be a witness. Create an atmosphere where a kid could feel free to talk to you about some adult molesting them. Several kids said they were afraid to discuss this CSA issue with their parents for fear they wouldn't believe their OWN children!!! And yes workers have punished people for alerting other friends about some pediphile in the Truth or Work. Read Dale Gardner's letter from 1988. There are lots of workers today (less now than then) who still think in those same terms.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 12:40:05 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 12:51:11 GMT -5
Dale Gardner: I personally, and face to face, talked to Murray Keene, Taylor Wood, Garrett Hughes and Leslie White, about Ira’s immorality with my young daughter, and to my dismay, found that they all said Ira would not do that, and that I must stop talking about it. I did not stop, so the ministry quickly put me out of the fellowship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 15:07:00 GMT -5
Bump. Juneau is next week which is why I am posting this.
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Post by magpie on May 21, 2017 17:18:40 GMT -5
Hello Bert,back to a gender name change? The scriptures say "SATIN ENTERED JUDAS",bet like the pedophile 2x2 workers he had some converts that followed hie teachings. RE Conventions and the caring for the predators. At Speed convention Australia,Chris Chandler was charged,12 known victims,prior to court,he was allowed to go to convention and browse over all the children and teens. (He got 6 months only) As with Ernie Barry,the State Bishop David Leitch arranges a high cost psychologist to have his jail sentence suspended,allowing him back into the community. Give us the Jeneau Judge please these mentally disordered Pedophiles shoud still be rotting in cells.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 9:00:56 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 9:01:31 GMT -5
Which one is Mr. Jacksch? The one with his head down?
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