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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 20:32:56 GMT -5
CD,
What sort of changes do the friends talk about happening in their lives during the year? What testimony of God's work is their testimony? Do they talk about people they have witnessed to and how God was able to use them to bring salvation to others? You know....testimony.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 20:41:42 GMT -5
CD, What sort of changes do the friends talk about happening in their lives during the year? What testimony of God's work is their testimony? Do they talk about people they have witnessed to and how God was able to use them to bring salvation to others? You know....testimony. The friends don't get too involved in bringing people to Christian faith as that is widely considered to be the domain of the workers. So there isn't much of that testified of. Probably the biggest single type of testimony is appreciation for something a worker said at the convention. That sort of thing is greatly minimized in regular fellowship meetings though. In fellowship meetings, most people speak about what their faith has done for their lives or something that helped them deepen their understanding of God. I have found that deeper and more inspiring words are now found in fellowship meetings these days. I suppose workers are inclined to either speak to the newcomer or speak to the middle in gospel meetings or conventions so there isn't much to inspire the more mature Christians in the group.
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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 20:52:18 GMT -5
CD,
My observations is that it is awkward for the friends to talk about what God has done in their lives. If they do at all, it is only in meeting, normally. Now that I have started fellowshipping with mature Christians, they have more experiences that can be shared with what is commonly called a "praise report".
It often goes something like this: There is someone in the church who has a concern and brings it up. We all pray about it. Some time later there is a definite work that God has done through that prayer. That work gets shared with the group and all are edified by the realness of the work. It is less academic than "I read this verse and it spoke to me this way." While that is good and everything, that is generally where the friends are stuck in their "testimony". Failure and need to do better is mentioned far more than victory and deliverance...that is, unless you count the times that people mention that they were delivered from false religion when the workers came and they started going to meeting.
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Post by JO on Oct 8, 2012 21:15:38 GMT -5
Was the apostle Paul putting himself down?
1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 21:36:58 GMT -5
Was the apostle Paul putting himself down? 1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. If that was where his message ended it would not be any glory to God and the saving power of Jesus Christ. I highly doubt that Paul's meetings were as somber and morose as what, without exception, every meeting tends to be. There is a different spirit in the meeting that has been associated with "reverence" but quickly fades when the meeting is over. When that spirit leaves, there are times when an actual time of edification can take place and true fellowship with each other in the Spirit. Often called "the meeting after the meeting". People are too afraid to break with tradition and have to wait until all the traditional ceremonial things are done. Perhaps that is just like a lot of other churches, but it is not what we preached regarding tradition's chain and such. Sure, Paul told those things he did. But think about it. He was writing a reference to a story they had heard before when he preached to them in person. He was not telling them a "failed and fallen short" sermon. Imagine what it would be like if one of the workers got up and said that one day he decided that he would put a stop to the lies that TS was saying about the workers and he had tracked him down through his IP and was on his way to shoot him. But on the way Jesus appeared to him and he became blind. Then an angel appeared to JO and told him to go and touch him and tell him that he is healed and to teach him the truth. What sort of impression do you think that would have on the convention or meeting? THAT is the sort of testimony that Paul was giving and referring to in his letters. I don't see the same self effacing in Paul's writings as I do in the friends. I see Christ glorified.
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Post by Greg on Oct 9, 2012 18:32:28 GMT -5
Come, follow me. Literally and physically, come, follow me. I am going to teach you to be fishers of men as we travel about. So, come, follow me. I will tell you things and show you things. So, come, follow me. Literally, physically, come, follow me. Of course Jesus wanted his disciples to "do as I say (instruct) and do as I do" and in those cases it is "follow what I say" and "follow what I do". Literally, physically, follow what I say and do. But when he called them to "come, follow me" it was to literally, physically, come, follow, walk with me. I probably am not capable of expressing the difference I see. There are times when certain things happen or when certain things are taught and when asked why, the reply is "as Jesus said, 'come, follow me' - that is why." The phrase becomes a catch-all. The interchange between Jesus and Peter at the end of John's gospel was post-resurrection. It could not possibly have meant "literally and physically" following him. Further to that, Jesus repeated told his disciples that they couldn't follow him literally and physically. For example: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." One of the most fundamental teachings of Christ is a process of transformation, ie through faith to become more like the ideal Christ we understand as divine. That is what is implied in most of his calls to "follow me". For yourself and kiwi to argue that Jesus did not call for people to live and become like him is remarkable. It is missing the whole point of Christian faith. The essence of Christ fully within individuals is (or should be) the primary goal of Christians. My thought on that "follow me" is that it was directed to someone else. Peter had already been made the leader of the group. Could be that after Peter's death the writer thought having the "follow me" directed at Peter would make a better story. Also, the question was asked "what about this man" and Jesus responds "if i want him to wait here while until I return..." Paraphrases, of course, yet true meaning, I think. I do think there should be a following of Jesus, but again the direct meaning without inplication was to ' walk with me as I teach you'. I suppose inference - especially spiritualizing and allegorizing (if that is a word) - can be made of many scripture. Likely kiwi and I are not agreeing on this matter at all.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 9, 2012 18:41:12 GMT -5
Was the apostle Paul putting himself down? 1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. If that was where his message ended it would not be any glory to God and the saving power of Jesus Christ. I highly doubt that Paul's meetings were as somber and morose as what, without exception, every meeting tends to be. There is a different spirit in the meeting that has been associated with "reverence" but quickly fades when the meeting is over. When that spirit leaves, there are times when an actual time of edification can take place and true fellowship with each other in the Spirit. Often called "the meeting after the meeting". People are too afraid to break with tradition and have to wait until all the traditional ceremonial things are done. Perhaps that is just like a lot of other churches, but it is not what we preached regarding tradition's chain and such. Sure, Paul told those things he did. But think about it. He was writing a reference to a story they had heard before when he preached to them in person. He was not telling them a "failed and fallen short" sermon. Imagine what it would be like if one of the workers got up and said that one day he decided that he would put a stop to the lies that TS was saying about the workers and he had tracked him down through his IP and was on his way to shoot him. But on the way Jesus appeared to him and he became blind. Then an angel appeared to JO and told him to go and touch him and tell him that he is healed and to teach him the truth. What sort of impression do you think that would have on the convention or meeting? THAT is the sort of testimony that Paul was giving and referring to in his letters. I don't see the same self effacing in Paul's writings as I do in the friends. I see Christ glorified. Actually, as Jesus told the Samaritan woman that there would come a time when people would not be gathered in the Temple NOR in the mountains as the Samaritans did, but they would worship in spirit and in truth. Perhaps with the growing discontent of doing things religious wise as always been done, it will eventually become that which Jesus said it would and that would be not people testifying what's happened to them specificatlly but people would be glorifying and worshipping in spirit and in truth. I feel I don't really know exactly what worshipping in spirit and in truth really entails, but I "think" it means that I'm not into telling all that which has beset me or what has brought to that point in life, but it would be kind of like Jesus' sample prayer...starting out with worshipping God, proclaiming His strengths, His wisdoms, His plan of salvation from before the world ever became and worshipping a Saviour who gave His life that we might have life, etc.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 9, 2012 18:46:56 GMT -5
The interchange between Jesus and Peter at the end of John's gospel was post-resurrection. It could not possibly have meant "literally and physically" following him. Further to that, Jesus repeated told his disciples that they couldn't follow him literally and physically. For example: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." One of the most fundamental teachings of Christ is a process of transformation, ie through faith to become more like the ideal Christ we understand as divine. That is what is implied in most of his calls to "follow me". For yourself and kiwi to argue that Jesus did not call for people to live and become like him is remarkable. It is missing the whole point of Christian faith. The essence of Christ fully within individuals is (or should be) the primary goal of Christians. My thought on that "follow me" is that it was directed to someone else. Peter had already been made the leader of the group. Could be that after Peter's death the writer thought having the "follow me" directed at Peter would make a better story. Also, the question was asked "what about this man" and Jesus responds "if i want him to wait here while until I return..." Paraphrases, of course, yet true meaning, I think. I do think there should be a following of Jesus, but again the direct meaning without inplication was to ' walk with me as I teach you'. I suppose inference - especially spiritualizing and allegorizing (if that is a word) - can be made of many scripture. Likely kiwi and I are not agreeing on this matter at all. Was not Jesus' speaking to Peter in regards to the "Follow thou me" Jesus' way of giving Peter back his place amongst the Apostles? Wasn't Peter very sorry about his denial of the Lord, did he not go out and weep bitterly? Also hadn't Peter returned to his fishing boat simply because Jesus was no longer with them? Didn't he take some of the others with him? Wasn't it possible that Peter was so lost in himself because he had denied the Lord that he thought that perhaps the ONLY thing he could do was to return to his career as fisher of fish? And when Peter saw the Master did'nt he put his cloke on and dive into the sea to get to the Master quicker? Seems Peter was very desparate to be counted as still faithful to Jesus.....I've heard and read many times that Jesus' exhortation to Peter was an indication that Peter was forgiven and since it was done 3 times, that kind of goes with Peter's denial of the Lord 3 times, doesn't it?
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Post by Greg on Oct 9, 2012 19:03:39 GMT -5
Was not Jesus' speaking to Peter in regards to the "Follow thou me" Jesus' way of giving Peter back his place amongst the Apostles? - His place as leader? Likely his place as leader was given after the tomb.
Wasn't Peter very sorry about his denial of the Lord, did he not go out and weep bitterly? - Probably so.
Also hadn't Peter returned to his fishing boat simply because Jesus was no longer with them? - Propably so.
Didn't he take some of the others with him? - Probably so.
Wasn't it possible that Peter was so lost in himself because he had denied the Lord that he thought that perhaps the ONLY thing he could do was to return to his career as fisher of fish? - Probably with his messiah thought to be dead, there was little else to do.
And when Peter saw the Master did'nt he put his cloke on and dive into the sea to get to the Master quicker? - Probably so.
Seems Peter was very desparate to be counted as still faithful to Jesus.....I've heard and read many times that Jesus' exhortation to Peter was an indication that Peter was forgiven and since it was done 3 times, that kind of goes with Peter's denial of the Lord 3 times, doesn't it? - They do seem to go well together.
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Post by ts on Oct 10, 2012 1:19:02 GMT -5
Wow, the 2x2s have it sown up on doctrine.
First they say to be an example. Be the change you want to see.
then they say that being an example is of no value. Don't follow Jesus' example. Just follow Him when he walks on Earth again.
Really, I can't (actually I can) believe that this obtuse discussion would come up at all.
Looks like to me that folks are trying to distance themselves from the obviously erroneous and embarrassing doctrine of their preachers.
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Post by ts on Oct 10, 2012 1:40:42 GMT -5
"Give of your best to the Master.....
....Jesus has set the exaaaaammmple, dauntless was He true and braaaave...."
"Do not fear to follow Jesus....He will lead thee safely through every dark and dreary valley and your failing strength renew. Do not fear to share His sorrow, when your earthly race is run, you will have His joy forever, His eternal glad well done."
"Come let us follow Jesus, it is the path of life, see all the faithful trod it and conquered in the strife. They marked it with their footprints with tears and pain and blood. Yet bravely struggled onward strong in the strength of God."
"Began continued finished.....with loins girt up and ready, with purpose firm and strong, we'll tread where God's true servants in ages past have gone."
"Jesus trod the pathway leading unto God's right hand....I will follow Thee my Lord and thy sweet will obey, Gladly yielding thee my best and all from day to day...."
"I hear my dying Saviour say, Follow me, come, Follow me. For thee I gave my life away. Follow me, come, follow me..."
"I have made my choice forever, I will walk with Christ my Lord....Though the garden lie before me and the fearful judgment hall, though the gloom of deepest midnight settles round me like a pall. Though the cross my path overshadow, Thou didst bear it once for me and whatever the pain or peril, JESUS, I'LL GO THROUGH WITH THEE"
These are just a few of the hymns that reinforce following Jesus and even following the workers is following Jesus. This is just off the top of mine and mostly my wife's head from memory as we do not have a hymn book anymore.
So, there. When Jesus called His disciples to follow Him, He only meant for them to take physical steps towards him literally and not figuratively follow His ways and DO what He did?
Then apparently many of the hymns you guys sing in meeting are sending a false message if that is the case.
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Post by ts on Oct 10, 2012 2:11:23 GMT -5
Was the apostle Paul putting himself down? 1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. My wife just reminded me of a sermon our pastor preached where he talked about Paul's account of his own sins. What stood out and made the difference is that he could say, "...But God..." I did not look it up. I was just remembering that GOD made the story into a success story. Paul was only giving his true testimony of What God had done in his life. It is God that exposes our sin and turns what is shame into a testimony of His deliverance. The meetings are lacking that. There is little if any power of deliverance and is evidenced by the need to cover up things. Our testimony of getting away from deception and immorality is one of God's deliverance. It is a testimony that I can share with young couples and people who are thinking of getting involved with exclusive groups. We can speak with authority about what brainwashing is. We can speak with authority about the possibility of getting free of the bondage of guilt and what is required. We can stand by people in prayer because others stood by us in prayer. Because we are free, we do NOT preach that you cannot talk about another's sin because you are sinful yourself. "I was that and on the wrong path, BUT GOD did the following for me and set me on the right path..." That is what giving testimony is all about. That is edifying and gives hope. That is NOT self effacing and down trodden in tone. It is rejoicing because of Jesus. Nothing has to be swept under the rug. I think there are more, but I found these two. Eph 2:3 and 4 ... 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,...1 Cor 15:9 -10 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am,
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Post by mdm on Sept 22, 2017 10:46:07 GMT -5
www.trutharchive.net/leroy-lerwick---letter-of-general-concerns---june-2015"Some have asked me what changes I see, in coming back to the US after 7 years away. I have heard of some cases of those who have been professing, mostly 3rd and 4th or even 5th generation of faithful families, who seem to be influenced by the age of tolerance in which we live, and the accepted attitude that there are good people in the churches who are sincere, and perhaps they can be saved also, although they serve God in a way contrary to the scriptures." Some ways in which the "way" differs from other churches: Preachers' celibacy is the mandated part of the "way." Yet both workers and friends have admitted to us that the workers'"unnatural life" leads to sexual immorality and somehow justifies it. It is a doctrine of the "way" to not expose sins of those in place of spiritual leadership. When a worker gets caught in immorality, he may get moved to a different area. When an overseer gets caught in immorality, he may be demoted to be a worker, or just moved to oversee a different area. The worker may be "punished," but there is no public confession or repentance. In the church I attend, when a person in place of leadership was caught in adultery, he was immediately dismissed from the job, and it was all done transparently. No, he wasn't ostracized, but was given full support to be brought to repentance and healing, as well as the other party. It is the doctrine of the "way" to not confess sins to those in the fellowship. It is customary to point out sins of "worldly" preachers as proof that they are false preachers and belong to false churches; yet sins of the workers are not to be taken into consideration. "The way is perfect, but people are not" is the mantra. The blood of Jesus somehow covers the sins of the workers, but not of "worldly" preachers. It is customary to say that "worldly" preachers are hired and fired as if the workers are not. The prospective workers also have to apply for the job and be accepted, and they also can be fired from the job. The difference is that the firings of workers are never discussed openly. Double standards and lack of honesty and transparency. Who is "serving God in a way contrary to the scriptures"?
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2017 15:49:21 GMT -5
Anyone know how ts is these days?
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Post by mdm on Sept 26, 2017 8:17:57 GMT -5
Anyone know how ts is these days? I've talked to him recently and he is doing well!
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Post by snow on Sept 26, 2017 16:49:49 GMT -5
Anyone know how ts is these days? I've talked to him recently and he is doing well! Good, thanks maja
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