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Post by faune on Oct 7, 2012 14:34:23 GMT -5
Here is a sermon that I dare say not one worker would see anything wrong with. They are putting burdens on people that they themselves will not bear. Are the overseers writing LW urging him just to take the blame? IH did not take responsibility for what he did, did they urge him to take the blame? Jerome ...did they urge him to take the blame or did they pay his court and lawyer costs? Sermons like this are really empty. Let's see where the workers have been examples of taking the blame and then making it right. Have the workers gone back to the friends in Alberta and apologized and then told them they were free to come back to meeting any time and take part? Did they then answer all the questions openly and honestly that were raised to begin with that led to them being ousted? I have heard Leroy's sermon before in the States. If someone actually holds someone to a worker sermon, suddenly the preacher of that sermon is just one guy not expressing the thoughts of the group. If they want to use the sermon in another instance to pressure one of the friends to forgive a perpetrator, they will cite that prominent worker and it adds credence to what they are saying. Like Johan Kotze cited Graham Snow like that was supposed to make me take heed to what he was saying about forgiveness and not pursuing matters further....right. TS ~ Your post reminds me of a certain chapter found in the Bible ~ namely Matthew 23 regarding the hypocrisy of the Pharisees? I believe that your verse quoted below comes from that same chapter? Here's a couple modern day translations of the same verse from www.biblegateway.com
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 7, 2012 16:34:50 GMT -5
Frankly, I think TS gets a bad rap here. Sure, he seems a bit repetitive on sexual sins of workers but the principles he comes from tend to be fairly sound. It bothers people that he seems to "broadbrush" (some sort of new sin developed right here on the TMB apparently) the workers. However, opinion is opinion, and those who try to recast his opinion into fact seem unable to separate fact from opinion and should instead be focused on separating fact from fiction. Maybe ts is getting a bad rap. It doesn't take any brains though to see evident wrongs. It doesn't take any wisdom to talk about it, when all the talking doesn't make any changes. Why would ts, who in his own words is much more righteous than those he rails about, care. I'm not proud of the things that have occurred ,but feel but for the grace of God there go I.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 7, 2012 17:38:26 GMT -5
Here is a sermon that I dare say not one worker would see anything wrong with. They are putting burdens on people that they themselves will not bear. Are the overseers writing LW urging him just to take the blame? IH did not take responsibility for what he did, did they urge him to take the blame? Jerome ...did they urge him to take the blame or did they pay his court and lawyer costs? Sermons like this are really empty. Let's see where the workers have been examples of taking the blame and then making it right. Have the workers gone back to the friends in Alberta and apologized and then told them they were free to come back to meeting any time and take part? Did they then answer all the questions openly and honestly that were raised to begin with that led to them being ousted? I have heard Leroy's sermon before in the States. If someone actually holds someone to a worker sermon, suddenly the preacher of that sermon is just one guy not expressing the thoughts of the group. If they want to use the sermon in another instance to pressure one of the friends to forgive a perpetrator, they will cite that prominent worker and it adds credence to what they are saying. Like Johan Kotze cited Graham Snow like that was supposed to make me take heed to what he was saying about forgiveness and not pursuing matters further....right. TS ~ Your post reminds me of a certain chapter found in the Bible ~ namely Matthew 23 regarding the hypocrisy of the Pharisees? I believe that your verse quoted below comes from that same chapter? Here's a couple modern day translations of the same verse from www.biblegateway.comI have never found the Message bible any better on any other story/verses then this...loading people down like pack animals with loads of legistic rules, that they are unwilling to bear.....
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Post by ts on Oct 7, 2012 17:40:58 GMT -5
Frankly, I think TS gets a bad rap here. Sure, he seems a bit repetitive on sexual sins of workers but the principles he comes from tend to be fairly sound. It bothers people that he seems to "broadbrush" (some sort of new sin developed right here on the TMB apparently) the workers. However, opinion is opinion, and those who try to recast his opinion into fact seem unable to separate fact from opinion and should instead be focused on separating fact from fiction. Maybe ts is getting a bad rap. It doesn't take any brains though to see evident wrongs. It doesn't take any wisdom to talk about it, when all the talking doesn't make any changes. Why would ts, who in his own words is much more righteous than those he rails about, care. I'm not proud of the things that have occurred ,but feel but for the grace of God there go I. It is not a virtue to keep suppressing the information, moving predators around and telling victims that they need to forgive and keep quiet. It is the overseers doing this who get the reputation among the friends for being wise. If I look foolish for being bold and talking about the tactics of overseers and exposing their ways, and it saves one soul from their attacks, then I am glad to look foolish or unwise. I hope that more people are emboldened to speak against the predators in the work without the fear perpetuated by the workers of "I will not lift my hand against God's anointed". The reason that myself and others are sharing information with each other and publicly is because the overseers have dictated what info gets shared and what doesn't. This has led to oppression and guilt heaped on shame. There is nothing wrong with exposing the information. There is plenty wrong with hiding it. Remember where my campaign started. it was trying to get people to see that Johan Marais was carrying on his sexual affairs even after the overseers told him that if he did he was out of the work. I was an eye witness to Johan breaking the agreement. The overseers conspired to keep him in the work. No overseer wanted to look into it and question Duane Hopkins, Johan Kotze, Don Reynolds, Andy Robijn and Trevor Leochel. No one. However, these same overseers are welcoming each other for conventions to preach the doctrine of "shut up and forgive or you are worse than the perpetrator" so that the predators can continue in the work.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 7, 2012 17:43:07 GMT -5
Frankly, I think TS gets a bad rap here. Sure, he seems a bit repetitive on sexual sins of workers but the principles he comes from tend to be fairly sound. It bothers people that he seems to "broadbrush" (some sort of new sin developed right here on the TMB apparently) the workers. However, opinion is opinion, and those who try to recast his opinion into fact seem unable to separate fact from opinion and should instead be focused on separating fact from fiction. Maybe ts is getting a bad rap. It doesn't take any brains though to see evident wrongs. It doesn't take any wisdom to talk about it, when all the talking doesn't make any changes. Why would ts, who in his own words is much more righteous than those he rails about, care. I'm not proud of the things that have occurred ,but feel but for the grace of God there go I. Lin, the above bolded is not really the real truth....the talk about CSA had created a different eye in many people and has encouraged some victims to speak up that otherwise they'd never spoken up....simply because some of us give our opinions of horror at how the workers have sinned against the "little ones"....Jesus even spoke out about those who hurt "the little ones"...saying such would be held against them and they'd be like someone with a milestone around their neck....so talking on TMB HAS opened a whole new world up to those who know of the crimes committed and hidden so many years within the ministry/friends....... IT DOES make a difference.
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Post by dlb5674 on Oct 7, 2012 17:45:31 GMT -5
Frankly, I think TS gets a bad rap here. Sure, he seems a bit repetitive on sexual sins of workers but the principles he comes from tend to be fairly sound. It bothers people that he seems to "broadbrush" (some sort of new sin developed right here on the TMB apparently) the workers. However, opinion is opinion, and those who try to recast his opinion into fact seem unable to separate fact from opinion and should instead be focused on separating fact from fiction. Maybe ts is getting a bad rap. It doesn't take any brains though to see evident wrongs. It doesn't take any wisdom to talk about it, when all the talking doesn't make any changes. Why would ts, who in his own words is much more righteous than those he rails about, care. I'm not proud of the things that have occurred ,but feel but for the grace of God there go I. Linford, I must have missed any statement ts made that might imply he felt more righteous than those he rails about. You're correct when you indicate that those who are willing to point out the flaws in the "system" don't seem to make much difference. That is because those in charge of the system are resistant to the truth. Peter did not recognize that Satan had an influence on him at times, as he does with all of us. But I do recognize the fact that Peter DID repent of his sins and turn away from them, as Paul did, and David did and many more that we read of in scripture. Sadly there are many elder workers who are so busy perpetuating a lie that they have come to believe as truth that there is no room for repentence. Even those in the work who seem to genuinely care for the members of that body of believers are still under the influence of a lie. I have no idea how any worker with an honest heart can continue under the pretense of presenting a true gospel. And don't understand how anyone who genuinely believes what is written in scripture can continue to support such a sytem. ts has been bold in expressing his feelings. I agree that he does seem to get so wrapped up in the sexual indescretions of the workers that he can't seem to focus on more important matters but at least he is willing to take a stand for what he believes which is more than I can say for the many who read the posts on this forum but are unwilling to stand up for what they believe. Evidentally this forum offers some form of cheap entertainment. And speaking of "broadbrushing", doesn't everyone tend to do that to some extent? Might be part of our human nature.
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Post by ts on Oct 7, 2012 18:19:10 GMT -5
Thanks DLB,
I would not be so caught up in the sexual indiscretions of the workers if they weren't so caught up in them and covering them up. I think it is a bigger deal in the work than is even being expressed here on the board.
It seems the fault is put on those who dare speak out. Really the fault is with those who are pretending to be "God's true servants" and are really wolves in sheep's clothing. The speaking out is only an effort to get the wolves out and change the "battered wife" attitude that the friends and workers have. They get abused and defend their abusers and turn on those trying to help.
I don't know where Linford gets that I said I was more righteous than predators who pretend to be God's servants but abuse God's people...but, while we are at it, yes, I am more righteous than that. There, I said it. I love the friends and workers than Leslie White, for example, who set up a scheme of abuse and made himself superior. If you can't have a ministry that is more righteous than than, you are better off without a ministry. Seriously!!! While we are at it, Barry Barkley has covered for LW and allowed him to continue his abuses. That is not showing a love for those entrusted to him. Neither are shepherds. There are more like them who have told lies and find themselves occupied with telling more to cover the previous ones. It is all about themselves and keeping their system well greased.
The friends and workers make it sound like if they did not allow those guilty of sexual misconduct into the work there would be no workers. No one would be "worthy". How warped. Do like Paul said. Keep your zipper up and if you can't marry. He was not talking specifically to workers. He was talking to everyone. And he didn't say, "leave the work and get married". I have not found one worker who will address this subject in an intelligent way. Alan Anderson offered an explanation of the married ministry that, if said by a worldly preacher, would have been ridiculed by even the workers.
To take Paul's words there and apply them to the ministry is a gross broad brushing that has caused widespread problems in the ministry. So wide spread are the problems that it makes my observations seem like broadbrushing.
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Post by Greg on Oct 7, 2012 18:35:48 GMT -5
The friends and workers make it sound like if they did not allow those guilty of sexual misconduct into the work there would be no workers. Should that be " ts makes it sound like if the F&W did not allow those quilty of sexual misconduct into the work there would be no workers"?
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Post by JO on Oct 7, 2012 19:01:11 GMT -5
Maybe ts is getting a bad rap. It doesn't take any brains though to see evident wrongs. It doesn't take any wisdom to talk about it, when all the talking doesn't make any changes. Why would ts, who in his own words is much more righteous than those he rails about, care. I'm not proud of the things that have occurred ,but feel but for the grace of God there go I. We probably all feel "but for the grace of God there go I" but that doesn't excuse us from making a stand for righteousness. The talking does make changes. For one thing, it gets sexual predators out of the work. How can that be a bad thing? Isn't that what godly workers would want? NOT talking is what results in no changes. Workers in the past have booted or discredited those who questioned their behaviour, but they can't escape accountability in the information age. Openness and accountability and doing the right thing is the way forward.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 7, 2012 19:33:32 GMT -5
I think that many of them 'looked into it'. However, your demand was that you wanted a face to face confrontation with Johan.
How were you expecting this to take place? Did you expect them to fly you somewhere to have this meeting? That they fly him to you? And even if they did, what were you expecting? He hadn't done anything to YOU. What would give YOU the right to confront him?
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Post by dlb5674 on Oct 7, 2012 20:09:43 GMT -5
I think that many of them 'looked into it'. However, your demand was that you wanted a face to face confrontation with Johan. How were you expecting this to take place? Did you expect them to fly you somewhere to have this meeting? That they fly him to you? And even if they did, what were you expecting? He hadn't done anything to YOU. What would give YOU the right to confront him? Evidentally I've missed something regarding the exceptional concern ts has regarding Johan. I don't have time to go through all his previous posts. ts, do you mind sharing why you have a special focus on this particular worker? You can PM me if you would prefer.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 7, 2012 21:09:24 GMT -5
Frankly, I think TS gets a bad rap here. Sure, he seems a bit repetitive on sexual sins of workers but the principles he comes from tend to be fairly sound. It bothers people that he seems to "broadbrush" (some sort of new sin developed right here on the TMB apparently) the workers. However, opinion is opinion, and those who try to recast his opinion into fact seem unable to separate fact from opinion and should instead be focused on separating fact from fiction. Maybe ts is getting a bad rap. It doesn't take any brains though to see evident wrongs. It doesn't take any wisdom to talk about it, when all the talking doesn't make any changes. Why would ts, who in his own words is much more righteous than those he rails about, care. I'm not proud of the things that have occurred ,but feel but for the grace of God there go I. Lin Your silence in a elders position lets the wrongs continue without challenge ken
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Post by ts on Oct 7, 2012 21:46:44 GMT -5
I think that many of them 'looked into it'. However, your demand was that you wanted a face to face confrontation with Johan. How were you expecting this to take place? Did you expect them to fly you somewhere to have this meeting? That they fly him to you? And even if they did, what were you expecting? He hadn't done anything to YOU. What would give YOU the right to confront him? Hey, wait a minute. You got that wrong. We asked Duane Hopkins if Johan Marais would answer our very reasonable questions and that we see his responses. Duane thought that that was reasonable as it would put everyone on the same page. Then Duane did not follow through with that. I can put our email exchange on the board if you want. By the way, they COULD have flown Johan Marais anywhere they wanted to as at the very moment that he was answering our emails he was at convention in Idaho to build his respectability and speak edifying words to people. But, no, we were not "demanding" a face to face interview with the guy. Yes, MANY of them did "look into it". But not really well. They did not want to look too hard. They kept wanting to make it sound like we were bringing up "the past" sexual misconduct that they had "dealt with" by giving him an ultimatum to "Break off all contact with [my SIL] and to not have any more relationships or else he would be sent home". That was after being turned in by a sister worker he was having a relationship with. But it was NOT that incident. That incident was IN THE PAST. We were not bringing up the past but his breaking of the pact. We were eye witnesses of his breaking of the pact. If he had been made to answer our questions, at the very least he would have on record that he was lying to us bald faced. But the overseers already knew he was a liar. Johan Kotze DID believe us and when he was of the mind that "God can restore ALL things". You see, Scott, if you believed the overseers' assessment of the situation, you believed a lie. Plain and simple. They did NOT "look into it". They found out how they could cover it up. They were not over a barrel with us. But they knew that we were telling the truth. When Duane wrote an email to my SIL, she blocked him. This did not stick out to them as incriminating evidence, nor did they simply make a phone call to her. Duane also assured us that he talked with two people in South Africa who knew my SIL and they said they knew nothing of Johan and her having continued the relationship. Come to find out, it was Johan Kotze and Andy Robijn(the two overseers) that Duane had talked to. How WOULD they know? And, as it turns out, we know what they would do if they DID know. They would cover it up rather than put him out of the work. "God can restore ALL things", remember? None of the responses we got were consistent with men of God who wanted to keep the sheep safe from predators. In fact, their responses were consistent with men who wanted to hide something. After our meeting with Johan Kotze and Andy Robijn I had this odd feeling and said to my wife, "I wonder what Johan is hiding." And it isn't like we went into the meeting thinking they were out to get us. We were excited that we were finally getting to meet with them. They were in on issuing the ultimatum to begin with. The fact of the matter is that we were telling the truth and they were, at best, stonewalling. Johan Marais lied and they believed a lie(if they indeed believed him).
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 7, 2012 22:28:37 GMT -5
I think that many of them 'looked into it'. However, your demand was that you wanted a face to face confrontation with Johan. How were you expecting this to take place? Did you expect them to fly you somewhere to have this meeting? That they fly him to you? And even if they did, what were you expecting? He hadn't done anything to YOU. What would give YOU the right to confront him? Hey, wait a minute. You got that wrong. We asked Duane Hopkins if Johan Marais would answer our very reasonable questions and that we see his responses. Duane thought that that was reasonable as it would put everyone on the same page. Then Duane did not follow through with that. I can put our email exchange on the board if you want. By the way, they COULD have flown Johan Marais anywhere they wanted to as at the very moment that he was answering our emails he was at convention in Idaho to build his respectability and speak edifying words to people. But, no, we were not "demanding" a face to face interview with the guy. Yes, MANY of them did "look into it". But not really well. They did not want to look too hard. They kept wanting to make it sound like we were bringing up "the past" sexual misconduct that they had "dealt with" by giving him an ultimatum to "Break off all contact with [my SIL] and to not have any more relationships or else he would be sent home". That was after being turned in by a sister worker he was having a relationship with. But it was NOT that incident. That incident was IN THE PAST. We were not bringing up the past but his breaking of the pact. We were eye witnesses of his breaking of the pact. If he had been made to answer our questions, at the very least he would have on record that he was lying to us bald faced. But the overseers already knew he was a liar. Johan Kotze DID believe us and when he was of the mind that "God can restore ALL things". You see, Scott, if you believed the overseers' assessment of the situation, you believed a lie. Plain and simple. They did NOT "look into it". They found out how they could cover it up. They were not over a barrel with us. But they knew that we were telling the truth. When Duane wrote an email to my SIL, she blocked him. This did not stick out to them as incriminating evidence, nor did they simply make a phone call to her. Duane also assured us that he talked with two people in South Africa who knew my SIL and they said they knew nothing of Johan and her having continued the relationship. Come to find out, it was Johan Kotze and Andy Robijn(the two overseers) that Duane had talked to. How WOULD they know? And, as it turns out, we know what they would do if they DID know. They would cover it up rather than put him out of the work. "God can restore ALL things", remember? None of the responses we got were consistent with men of God who wanted to keep the sheep safe from predators. In fact, their responses were consistent with men who wanted to hide something. After our meeting with Johan Kotze and Andy Robijn I had this odd feeling and said to my wife, "I wonder what Johan is hiding." And it isn't like we went into the meeting thinking they were out to get us. We were excited that we were finally getting to meet with them. They were in on issuing the ultimatum to begin with. The fact of the matter is that we were telling the truth and they were, at best, stonewalling. Johan Marais lied and they believed a lie(if they indeed believed him). Hey, wait a minute. You got that wrong. We asked Duane Hopkins if Johan Marais would answer our very reasonable questions and that we see his responses. Duane thought that that was reasonable as it would put everyone on the same page. Then Duane did not follow through with that. I can put our email exchange on the board if you want.I assume you are referring to this email? As for a conversation with Johan among the three of us; I know you are anxious to bring Johan to admit or confess to wrong conduct between him and xxxxx. From my experience trying to force such an issue only makes a guilty party be more careful about his or her activity and seldom remedies the problem, or if the person is innocent it causes a deeper schism between the accused and accuser and gives no solution but only causes deeper problems, hurt feelings and embarrassment on the part of the person who brings the accusations.
I have learned, and have full confidence, that the Lord will reveal in HIS time and way any and all wrong conduct, produces less disharmony and leaves no doubt about who and where the fault lies. We have seen this again in the very recent past. To move too soon is like opening a boil before it is ready, the temptation is great but the result is far more painful and at times leaves heavy scars. We are not trying to shield nor condemn Johan nor xxxxxx, we are as concerned as any one and sure the Lord will reveal the hearts and deeds of all at the right moment and produce the remedy. You can see in your own family xxxx that wrong attitudes and wrong doctrines have separated them from others and no one had to "expose", it was known by many and suspicioned by most but the Lord brought about the separation and will be the final judge. My advice is to forever examine our own lives and motives, and leave this in the Lord's hands. Proverbs 25: 8 - 13 is to me good advice and can avoid serious pitfalls. We are not "afraid" to deal with this problem, we have dealt with worse when we had definite proof and knew the ground we were walking on. Greetings Duane And.... as Duane mentioned, the Lord DID reveal the deeds and produce the remedy. When Johan was confronted by the woman he abused as a child, he not only confessed to that, but also to affairs with other women, including your sister-in-law. The result was that he was removed from the work. So..... confession as to what you were wanting to discuss with him (and you did mention using skype to do so and not 'face to face'), plus removal from the work. What more do you want from this situation?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2012 0:01:22 GMT -5
No it don't Love the Lord thy God...........doesn't give any room for any but Jesus to point out others perceived wrongs. Please note this teaching of Jesus: "Judge righteous judgment". There is nothing more dangerous than to ignore the dangers that surround you, and there is not much more uncaring than to fail to point them out to those you claim to love. First of all you have to have the spirit of Christ to make righteous judgement But if you feel that you can make righteous judgement go ahead.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2012 0:05:53 GMT -5
Ha ha don't be so funny, read the good Samaritan and see what he did and didn't do Well I will say this much, I am grateful you aren't arguing to justify the inaction of the priest as occurred on another thread. The truth is, you do not know what the Samaritan didn't do because you do not have the full record of his life surrounding that incident. The reason the full record is not recorded is because the lesson was not meant to detail what you should or shouldn't do in that sort of circumstance, the sole lesson was to explain who is your neighbour, whom you are commanded to love. You are clearly intimating that the Samaritan didn't prosecute the offender. That's a terrible assumption to make from that story. The record does not indicate that the offender was known to even the victim, let alone the Samaritan. Would the Samaritan have made sure the offender was reported to the authorities and dealt with by them? You betcha, it is the only right thing to do. It amazes me that you would argue that failure to report a crime is a virtue......when it is a crime in itself. Even the heathen accept that simple principle. It does take much intelligence to know what he didn't do Must have been wonderful to be there and see the thieves do what they did, fix the man up and go and report them. Trouble is with you lot you want to report just on hearsay.
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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 0:21:25 GMT -5
No. that was not the email that I was referring to. I don't know if I sent you that one or not. It was a really short one. just a few sentences right in the beginning of our emailing with Duane. He agreed that it would be a good idea to have JM's and our responses in the open for both parties. then he reneged. We wanted him to be a mediator. We thought it was just like it should be in Mt 18. It was very reasonable what we asked. Duane was our witness and it would have been on record. I wonder why that did not happen. Would you like me to find that email and post it? What would have been wrong with "Moving too soon" to have Johan speak to us? What more damage could it have done? The overseers have not been true to their own word. They gave their own word that Johan would be out if he continued. He had his warning. He gave his word and broke it. Yet, they are afraid to "move to fast" because of who it might hurt or something. Johan should have been out of the work at least two years before he was. There is no telling how many victims he had during that time. No telling how much damage he did ...And Duane claims to be CAUTIOUS? !!!!! For the sake of WHOM is he being cautious? And speaking of being cautious, did they notify all the friends in Peru and Bolivia and South Africa where Johan Marais had been that he was a child molester and out of the work because of that? What more do I want? I would like the overseers to be honest. Barring that, let it be known what they are doing. They only exposed themselves in their dealings with Johan. If they handled it openly and honestly, then it is out there for everyone to see. If not, it is still out there. The fact is, they gave Johan ONE MORE CHANCE....LAST CHANCE....Told him so. I saw the email. And then they did not follow through. There is a reason for that. No one has given a very good reason yet. It is a subject they like to avoid. I believe there is far more dishonesty going on that they do not want exposed. That is why they find JM's services so needful that they will try to protect him as much as possible. I believe that their dishonesty is destroying lives and destroying faith. I love the people they are destroying and I hate the lies and destruction of the enemy. I believe that God is tired of it also and is using the small and weak people around the world to expose these things and to proclaim truth and deliverance. Johan Kotze told me in leaving our meeting together that "If God closes a door, you best not try and open it." I told him "If God opens a door, you cannot shut it. And when he does open it, I am going through it." I was in an unbelievably weak position(especially compared to him) when I said that. But God certainly has opened some doors that keep on and on exposing the evil that is going on. It will keep happening also. I hope they repent. I really do.
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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 0:56:31 GMT -5
Scott,
Here is the email exchange where we suggested that we have an "open forum" emailing. I remember that we were particularly interested in NOT having a face to face discussion with JM or anyone in my wife's family and that is exactly what JM threatened us with. He threatened to only continue the discussion if he had our physical address and said that if we did not give it to him he had ways of getting it himself. My SIL also said pretty much the same thing. Duane, in another email thought it wise to continue with corresponding in email so that all would have a complete record. You can see below that evidently Duane did not get permission, for some reason, to pass along JM's emails to us. We never got one from him, though Duane thought we had a reasonable suggestion. Can you think of any reason why completely honest workers would not want to address these concerns openly? How many red flags to YOU see going up?:
Hi Duane I had a thought yesterday. I would like to suggest an "open forum" discussion - where the emails we send to you are copied to both ... and Johan and yours to them and theirs to you are copied to us. So that everyone knows EXACTLY what is being said/asked. I know that what I am writing to you, I will be quite happy to tell both ------ and Johan. Also, they both know what I know about their relationship and I feel that it will be a good thing if they know that everything they write is being read by me. We had an experience last year, when we had the address of an overseer in the states and we told him a little of the problem we have with Johan Marais, that we would like to confront. The overseer questioned Don Reynolds on our behalf, who told him that it was "dealt with." The overseer accepted Don's word and would not give us Johan or Don's email addresses in order that we could follow up with them ourselves. We didn't know what was asked and what was said except for what the overseer chose to tell us. He said that Don didn't know where we had got our information, which sort of incinuated that he thought that what we were saying was untrue. It left us with no recourse until recently ... Duane, I am not expecting you to lie to us or cover for untruth but I feel that if Johan and ----- both know that what they write, I am going to read - it may make a difference in what they will actually say/answer. What do you think?
MRS TS
And then Duane's response:
Dear [MR and Mrs TS], Yours in last evening and just a few minutes this mroning to send this, the suggestion is reasonable I feel, of course I will forward no letters written to me without prior permission from the writer but if each send their own it is fine with me. Please give me a little while to continue the investigation for my time just now is very limited as you would understand. Duane
and an email after we told him about JM's threat and the threats the family were making to find us.
...My advice at this moment is to confine your correspondence with the family---and others --- to e-mail. I see no reason why this form of correspondence is not adequate for the present and gives everyone the same opportunity to express their thoughts can keep a complete record of all yet keeps your location to yourself. We will be in touch in a few days . Greetings and good wishes Duane
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 9:05:41 GMT -5
Well I will say this much, I am grateful you aren't arguing to justify the inaction of the priest as occurred on another thread. The truth is, you do not know what the Samaritan didn't do because you do not have the full record of his life surrounding that incident. The reason the full record is not recorded is because the lesson was not meant to detail what you should or shouldn't do in that sort of circumstance, the sole lesson was to explain who is your neighbour, whom you are commanded to love. You are clearly intimating that the Samaritan didn't prosecute the offender. That's a terrible assumption to make from that story. The record does not indicate that the offender was known to even the victim, let alone the Samaritan. Would the Samaritan have made sure the offender was reported to the authorities and dealt with by them? You betcha, it is the only right thing to do. It amazes me that you would argue that failure to report a crime is a virtue......when it is a crime in itself. Even the heathen accept that simple principle. It does take much intelligence to know what he didn't do Must have been wonderful to be there and see the thieves do what they did, fix the man up and go and report them. Trouble is with you lot you want to report just on hearsay. You seem to know what the Samaritan didn't do without having the information. That's not even hearsay.....that's fabrication. Why do you support people who don't report crimes?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 9:08:45 GMT -5
Please note this teaching of Jesus: "Judge righteous judgment". There is nothing more dangerous than to ignore the dangers that surround you, and there is not much more uncaring than to fail to point them out to those you claim to love. First of all you have to have the spirit of Christ to make righteous judgement But if you feel that you can make righteous judgement go ahead. Did you not know that even the heathen can make righteous judgment? Do you need the biblical proof of that?
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Post by sharonw on Oct 8, 2012 10:54:07 GMT -5
CD, we can only aspire to be like Jesus...otherwords we are responding to the great salvation work Jesus has done.....He died for me, so I'll live for Him...and yes, that almost requires an unknowing desire to be like Him....that said, that was not the only message Jesus gave...HIS primary message was that He finished the work that His Father had sent Him to do and we see Him saying on the cross "It is finished." Otherwords, God's plan for salvation from before the world ever began was completed...Jesus had sacrificed His pure life on the cross....bearing all our our sins on His perfect life on the cross so that we might repent and bear His righteousness instead of our unrighteousness....but as Paul said this does not give us rights to sin....but to LOVE the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength....."Nothing but salvation, is the life within..." The above bolded is probably one of the more deceptive teachings of current Christianity. If Christ's teachings and spirit are not transformative, they are not only useless, they are delusional. I know, I know, you will now respond with a description of the great evils of a works-based salvation. That is another deception: the real problem is not a grace vs works battle. The real problem is the denial of the power of the living Christ within in either case. CD, that that I wrote above is not from outside the 2x2 belifs...I have always believed that because I know on the day that Christ shall appear that I'm going to fall on my face before Him, even though my belief in Him has given me salvation before the Father because The Father sees in me the righteousness of Christ, not my righteousness. What I'm trying to say and as far as I've known that the 2x2 have always thought they COULD be exactly like Jesus regardless. But then that is in looking at Jesus as just a very perfect man and not looking at the full measure of the Spirit that He was given NOR looking at Him through the eyes of His Apostles John, who clearly indicates that since Jesus is the Word and the Word was God, that would be reasonable to understand that Jesus was the Word BEFORE He came down and took on Him flesh so that He could dwell amongst us. Jesus' fleshly sacrifice had to be perfect in order that those whom are saved by His sacrifice will be clothed with His righteousness, though we are not worthy of such glory. I think to estimate all of this in the flesh is wrong, the spiritual part of it has to be considered first as the spiritual is what counts in eternity.......I do not believe in actuality I will ever be like Jesus, simply because my flesh is sin itself and I sin everyday, though the Spirit tries to warn me about these sins before they happen...they are unintentional sins, but sins they are...thus all of us are similiar in this and thus we can NOT be like Jesus for He was perfect and God is perfect and thus to expect ourselves to be like Him is to discourage us when we realize no way in this world are we getting there(in being like Jesus) Is that better to understand what I'm trying to say?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 11:19:09 GMT -5
The above bolded is probably one of the more deceptive teachings of current Christianity. If Christ's teachings and spirit are not transformative, they are not only useless, they are delusional. I know, I know, you will now respond with a description of the great evils of a works-based salvation. That is another deception: the real problem is not a grace vs works battle. The real problem is the denial of the power of the living Christ within in either case. CD, that that I wrote above is not from outside the 2x2 belifs...I have always believed that because I know on the day that Christ shall appear that I'm going to fall on my face before Him, even though my belief in Him has given me salvation before the Father because The Father sees in me the righteousness of Christ, not my righteousness. What I'm trying to say and as far as I've known that the 2x2 have always thought they COULD be exactly like Jesus regardless. But then that is in looking at Jesus as just a very perfect man and not looking at the full measure of the Spirit that He was given NOR looking at Him through the eyes of His Apostles John, who clearly indicates that since Jesus is the Word and the Word was God, that would be reasonable to understand that Jesus was the Word BEFORE He came down and took on Him flesh so that He could dwell amongst us. Jesus' fleshly sacrifice had to be perfect in order that those whom are saved by His sacrifice will be clothed with His righteousness, though we are not worthy of such glory. I think to estimate all of this in the flesh is wrong, the spiritual part of it has to be considered first as the spiritual is what counts in eternity.......I do not believe in actuality I will ever be like Jesus, simply because my flesh is sin itself and I sin everyday, though the Spirit tries to warn me about these sins before they happen...they are unintentional sins, but sins they are...thus all of us are similiar in this and thus we can NOT be like Jesus for He was perfect and God is perfect and thus to expect ourselves to be like Him is to discourage us when we realize no way in this world are we getting there(in being like Jesus) Is that better to understand what I'm trying to say? Fair enough, but from my observations, I don't think F&Ws ever believed they could reach perfection as is believed Jesus was. At least not that I could see. Some people did get upset when they failed in their efforts to "like Jesus" in some way or another, but I don't see them as believing that lack of perfection meant lack of salvation.
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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 13:17:40 GMT -5
CD,
One of the chief arguments/accusations that the predatory overseers use to assure that their sins are not looked into is that "you are guilty of the same yourself so you cannot cast the first stone." This is all false, of course.
We are supposed to overcome immorality and sin and addiction...whatever...and then help others. We do have the right/obligation to help our brothers in edification and rebuke. Every step we take towards perfection is becoming more like Christ. Jesus died to deliver us from sin. Salvation happens all at once when we invite Jesus into our hearts. However, deliverance from the myriad sins that afflict us takes time. We are not always even aware of what is and is not sin. Over time he reveals more as we seek more and are able to bear looking at our sin and confessing it and repenting of it.
We do not live in a vacuum. it is our testimony of deliverance that gives people hope and leads them to Christ. The testimonies in meeting tend to be how much they have "failed and fallen short" instead of how much they have overcome and what praise they have for Jesus and his power. The "failed and fallen short" testimony is glorified as "humility". It is warped. That attitude/doctrine keeps people in bondage. It keeps people from experiencing the saving grace of Jesus.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 8, 2012 14:07:03 GMT -5
CD, One of the chief arguments/accusations that the predatory overseers use to assure that their sins are not looked into is that "you are guilty of the same yourself so you cannot cast the first stone." This is all false, of course. We are supposed to overcome immorality and sin and addiction...whatever...and then help others. We do have the right/obligation to help our brothers in edification and rebuke. Every step we take towards perfection is becoming more like Christ. Jesus died to deliver us from sin. Salvation happens all at once when we invite Jesus into our hearts. However, deliverance from the myriad sins that afflict us takes time. We are not always even aware of what is and is not sin. Over time he reveals more as we seek more and are able to bear looking at our sin and confessing it and repenting of it. We do not live in a vacuum. it is our testimony of deliverance that gives people hope and leads them to Christ. The testimonies in meeting tend to be how much they have "failed and fallen short" instead of how much they have overcome and what praise they have for Jesus and his power. The "failed and fallen short" testimony is glorified as "humility". It is warped. That attitude/doctrine keeps people in bondage. It keeps people from experiencing the saving grace of Jesus. TS/CD I think this a very clear and true statement and one that was true when we were part of the fellowship and I dare say probably is still true. ken
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Post by JO on Oct 8, 2012 14:32:27 GMT -5
What I'm trying to say and as far as I've known that the 2x2 have always thought they COULD be exactly like Jesus regardless. But then that is in looking at Jesus as just a very perfect man and not looking at the full measure of the Spirit that He was given NOR looking at Him through the eyes of His Apostles John, who clearly indicates that since Jesus is the Word and the Word was God, that would be reasonable to understand that Jesus was the Word BEFORE He came down and took on Him flesh so that He could dwell amongst us. Sharon, what do you think about the following scripture? 1 John 3 1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
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Post by ts on Oct 8, 2012 14:54:06 GMT -5
JO, are you making all that up or is that from the Bible?
Interesting how the workers have made it sin to actually recognize sin and call it "from the devil".
They are calling good "evil" and evil "good" and the friends are buying it and defending that doctrine.
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Post by emy on Oct 8, 2012 18:10:13 GMT -5
CD, we can only aspire to be like Jesus...otherwords we are responding to the great salvation work Jesus has done.....He died for me, so I'll live for Him...and yes, that almost requires an unknowing desire to be like Him....that said, that was not the only message Jesus gave...HIS primary message was that He finished the work that His Father had sent Him to do and we see Him saying on the cross "It is finished." Otherwords, God's plan for salvation from before the world ever began was completed...Jesus had sacrificed His pure life on the cross....bearing all our our sins on His perfect life on the cross so that we might repent and bear His righteousness instead of our unrighteousness....but as Paul said this does not give us rights to sin....but to LOVE the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength....."Nothing but salvation, is the life within..." The above bolded is probably one of the more deceptive teachings of current Christianity. If Christ's teachings and spirit are not transformative, they are not only useless, they are delusional. I know, I know, you will now respond with a description of the great evils of a works-based salvation. That is another deception: the real problem is not a grace vs works battle. The real problem is the denial of the power of the living Christ within in either case. AGREE!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 19:43:00 GMT -5
CD, One of the chief arguments/accusations that the predatory overseers use to assure that their sins are not looked into is that "you are guilty of the same yourself so you cannot cast the first stone." This is all false, of course. We are supposed to overcome immorality and sin and addiction...whatever...and then help others. We do have the right/obligation to help our brothers in edification and rebuke. Every step we take towards perfection is becoming more like Christ. Jesus died to deliver us from sin. Salvation happens all at once when we invite Jesus into our hearts. However, deliverance from the myriad sins that afflict us takes time. We are not always even aware of what is and is not sin. Over time he reveals more as we seek more and are able to bear looking at our sin and confessing it and repenting of it. We do not live in a vacuum. it is our testimony of deliverance that gives people hope and leads them to Christ. The testimonies in meeting tend to be how much they have "failed and fallen short" instead of how much they have overcome and what praise they have for Jesus and his power. The "failed and fallen short" testimony is glorified as "humility". It is warped. That attitude/doctrine keeps people in bondage. It keeps people from experiencing the saving grace of Jesus. TS/CD I think this a very clear and true statement and one that was true when we were part of the fellowship and I dare say probably is still true. ken From my observations Ken, it is no longer true. Perhaps it may be in some geographical areas but I haven't heard "I have fallen so far short" type of testimonies for a long time......at least 15 years.....except in very isolated incidences at the most. It is certainly not commonplace. The first couple of days of convention often features a lot of friends mentioning how they barely made it to convention, how much they really needed convention, how they almost didn't come.....etc. However, that's not the same as "falling short" all the time.
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