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Post by sharonw on Sept 3, 2012 9:36:14 GMT -5
I know people want to attribute miracles to the numbers going out into the work, but there is also a powerful mathematical relationship between the number of friends and the number of workers. The ratio will vary from one geographical location and another, and it will vary over time a bit.....but it exists nevertheless. The relationship between numbers of friends and numbers of workers did not exist in the first couple of decades of the fellowship, but there is a reason for that: it is now a pastoral ministry group vs an evangelical ministry in the beginning. This suggests that the ratio can be improved if the ministry leans from pastoral ministry more towards evangelism. How many of the past 2 generation of workers that actually know what it is to work a mission amongst strangers without the friends there for every gospel mtg.? How many workers do little more then bible studies with hopeful converts? How many workers of today speak the gospel in a short amount of gospel mtgs., test the mtgs. and if there are converts, they stay to be with them in their first Sun. a.m. mtg. just to help them get started and then the workers move off into another area for another gospel mission. Why are the workers of today so into this making sure every convert "gets it" before they even test their mtgs. often having mission year after mission year having gospel mtgs. for the "hopefuls" because those hopefuls still do not "get it".....what is so hard to understand about the gospel of Jesus Christ? Either one takes it in and believes in it or they're like Rat they don't even want to take it in.....preaching the gospel to rank strangers is not that hard and it can have wonderful effect on the workers who work such a mission and not penalizing their hopefuls simply because they don't "get it"...and the "don't get it" is Never not getting the gospel of Jesus Christ, but the getting it of the unwritten rules etc. of the 2x2 fellowship....preaching a gospel of salvation PLUS! The beginning workers left converts here and there with nothing more then instructions about their Sun. a.m. mtgs. and their Wed. night studies...the beginning workers "trusted" their converts in that these new converts meant their conversion into Christianity was due to their faith in Jesus Christ. The past 2 generations do not seem to trust their new converts for they hang in there day after day hovering over their new converts trying to be sure they "get it".....where's the trust and faith in the Holy Spirit who is well able and more to take care of the earnest converts.....back in the beginning days there wasn't even an experienced "elder" to run the mtgs. etc....but the workers were few and they HAD to trust someone, now didn't they? Just think, there were only 3 workers that came to the US at first and now look back at the 60's when workers were everywhere and many went overseas to foreign fields themself and now they don't have enough workers just to drive the mileage from friend's house to friend's housse.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Sept 3, 2012 9:52:33 GMT -5
All through the ages God's ministry has taken on many forms. The form is not always a constant. God in His mercy though strives to reach those that want to know Him. I fear we limit God by thinking there is only one method to save souls. Would you be willing to explain your understanding on what forms God's ministry has? Also, are you thinking that there is more than one way of salvation or do you mean something different? all through the bible there has been a ministry. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. In Abraham's day there was Melchizedek .The children of Israel had the priesthood. there were the prophets. Jesus then had the apostles. In Acts there were still some of the apostles plus others Phillip, Stephen etc. The point I'm making is God's ministry is whoever He can use to accomplish His work. If it would be true there would be no workers, as long as there would be believers there would be a ministry. I feel as time goes on there will be more clarity in God's plan for the future. We could miss a lot by restricting our thinking to how we think.
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Post by emerald on Sept 3, 2012 10:28:07 GMT -5
This suggests that the ratio can be improved if the ministry leans from pastoral ministry more towards evangelism. How many of the past 2 generation of workers that actually know what it is to work a mission amongst strangers without the friends there for every gospel mtg.? How many workers do little more then bible studies with hopeful converts? How many workers of today speak the gospel in a short amount of gospel mtgs., test the mtgs. and if there are converts, they stay to be with them in their first Sun. a.m. mtg. just to help them get started and then the workers move off into another area for another gospel mission. Why are the workers of today so into this making sure every convert "gets it" before they even test their mtgs. often having mission year after mission year having gospel mtgs. for the "hopefuls" because those hopefuls still do not "get it".....what is so hard to understand about the gospel of Jesus Christ? Either one takes it in and believes in it or they're like Rat they don't even want to take it in.....preaching the gospel to rank strangers is not that hard and it can have wonderful effect on the workers who work such a mission and not penalizing their hopefuls simply because they don't "get it"...and the "don't get it" is Never not getting the gospel of Jesus Christ, but the getting it of the unwritten rules etc. of the 2x2 fellowship....preaching a gospel of salvation PLUS! The beginning workers left converts here and there with nothing more then instructions about their Sun. a.m. mtgs. and their Wed. night studies...the beginning workers "trusted" their converts in that these new converts meant their conversion into Christianity was due to their faith in Jesus Christ. The past 2 generations do not seem to trust their new converts for they hang in there day after day hovering over their new converts trying to be sure they "get it".....where's the trust and faith in the Holy Spirit who is well able and more to take care of the earnest converts.....back in the beginning days there wasn't even an experienced "elder" to run the mtgs. etc....but the workers were few and they HAD to trust someone, now didn't they? Just think, there were only 3 workers that came to the US at first and now look back at the 60's when workers were everywhere and many went overseas to foreign fields themself and now they don't have enough workers just to drive the mileage from friend's house to friend's housse. The truth is, here in Ireland, when the workers tried about 30yrs ago, to have a mission in an area where there were no friends, few came out. They had a tent mission in the west of Ireland, living in one half, preaching in the other and but for a handful of friends that visited them, there was little doing. If they were to try the same in a more populous area, say where I live for example, and the friends weren't there, there'd be few or no "outsiders" turn up. We have learned over the years that the 2x2 fellowship is regarded as a "Bloodless religion" and through "outsiders" that consider themselves saved Christians, heretical. Of course, we can argue that is not so, we believe in the Blood etc. but the fact is, the word on the street is that it's a works-based salvation and any seeking soul that has a basic knowledge of the Bible, stays well clear. We might be regarded as nice, quiet-living people, but few are interested in the type of salvation they believe the meetings offer. The only realistic way I think the error (if it even is that?) can be addressed is at funerals where involuntary but critical listeners might be reached but often now the mourners don't want the funeral turned into a mission as was so often done in the past. With the consequences as indicated above...
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A10D
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Post by A10D on Sept 3, 2012 11:07:37 GMT -5
Would you be willing to explain your understanding on what forms God's ministry has? Also, are you thinking that there is more than one way of salvation or do you mean something different? all through the bible there has been a ministry. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. In Abraham's day there was Melchizedek .The children of Israel had the priesthood. there were the prophets. Jesus then had the apostles. In Acts there were still some of the apostles plus others Phillip, Stephen etc. The point I'm making is God's ministry is whoever He can use to accomplish His work. If it would be true there would be no workers, as long as there would be believers there would be a ministry. I feel as time goes on there will be more clarity in God's plan for the future. We could miss a lot by restricting our thinking to how we think. Thank you, I now understand what you meant.
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Post by quizzer on Sept 4, 2012 10:13:34 GMT -5
I've heard of a few bachs done recently with brother workers in areas that have no friends. However, I'm not aware of anyone professing. If you have gospel meetings for a few weeks before moving off to convention/special meeting rounds, you're basically telling any newbies that the show's over. Time to move on, so they move on as quickly as the brother workers did.
I don't think that the current 2x2 system is conducive to opening up in new areas. Of course, if the current 2x2 system doesn't address its flaws, I don't see how we'll retain anyone once they figure out how to google "Cooneyite."
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Post by ts on Sept 4, 2012 17:14:40 GMT -5
If you had had fellowship with anyone from any other church, you would not have to ask all these questions. Most folks do not have to even ponder over the question and ask definitions for basic terms. They either have had fellowship with others or they can tell you why they have not. I understand where you are, though, Linford. It took me a long time of being out of meeting to learn that the body of Christ is bigger than just the meeting folk. It took a lot of patient Christians to help me see that they were not "outsiders" and "unsaved" as I was taught in meeting and as I preached. So, I understand why it is so threatening to you and why you are so evasive about it. It is in no way threatening to me. You don't believe it yourself. It shows in your criticisms. Can you have fellowship and point out the faults of others? I don't think you criticize those you have fellowship with now. Maybe you are a church of one. I don't know what you think I don't believe and what I am being critical about. I am against false doctrine. The workers preach false doctrine. I did preach it and believe it at one time. It is time to correct that. That is not being critical. That is preaching truth. That is not "finding fault". That is preaching truth. Do you think the workers are being "critical" or "finding fault" when they mention something about what other religions believe that they feel is false? (And don't tell me you have never heard any of them say so). I dare say that you would not accuse them of the same. If you do, do you still accept them in your home, house them, feed them, pay them, and listen to them speak from the platform? I am not a church of one and am in fellowship with others who are very open to criticism. I do not agree with everything they believe and neither do they believe in everything I do. We discuss the differences when they come up in a very open and understanding manner. For example, we keep the sabbath and they do not. It is not a problem. We have strong convictions about it and other things. So what? We recognize that they have the Holy Spirit working in their lives and are reaching out to the community and touching lives in a real way urging them into a closer relationship with Jesus and our Father. Also, I feel very comfortable in meeting. When I speak in meeting, there is no contention. Just a testimony of God's work and what He has spoken to me through the scripture or through the week. I feel comfortable being there but evidently there are some workers who are not comfortable with me being in meeting or convention. One reason they are not comfortable is because I openly say that I do not believe that the meetings is the only truth and way. That is false. It is doctrine. It is ...false doctrine. If it were not doctrine, it would not matter if I said so or not. For example, if I stood up in the church I fellowship in and said, "I don't believe that this is the only truth and way", That would be fine...and they would be fine with me doing so should I feel so moved. However, If I stood up in meeting and said, "I believe this IS the only truth and way" they would be fine with me doing so. I know because I know when I first professed that I did just that and everyone knew that I had gotten the revelation. In fact, I was sitting at lunch on special meeting rounds and Murray Keen was sitting right next to me. A man asked me when I realized that this was the only truth and way(I was not raised in meeting). I told him that it dawned on me a short while after I actually professed. Murray said that he knew of a man in Florida who had had the same experience. The only thing that makes the statement of truth contentious is the element that wants to support a lie and suppress the truth.
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Post by ts on Sept 5, 2012 18:07:36 GMT -5
Would you be willing to explain your understanding on what forms God's ministry has? Also, are you thinking that there is more than one way of salvation or do you mean something different? all through the bible there has been a ministry. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. In Abraham's day there was Melchizedek .The children of Israel had the priesthood. there were the prophets. Jesus then had the apostles. In Acts there were still some of the apostles plus others Phillip, Stephen etc. The point I'm making is God's ministry is whoever He can use to accomplish His work. If it would be true there would be no workers, as long as there would be believers there would be a ministry. I feel as time goes on there will be more clarity in God's plan for the future. We could miss a lot by restricting our thinking to how we think. Sometimes, the preachers were not recognized as the preachers by the religious leaders and the people rather chose men who did not care for them to be their spiritual leaders.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2012 7:54:45 GMT -5
Do you think the workers are being "critical" or "finding fault" when they mention something about what other religions believe that they feel is false? *** I think what bothers me even more than this is their refusal to see errors in their own group. Acting like all is well when serious problems exist in the Kingdom.
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Post by dlb5674 on Sept 8, 2012 17:12:02 GMT -5
Do you think the workers are being "critical" or "finding fault" when they mention something about what other religions believe that they feel is false? *** I think what bothers me even more than this is their refusal to see errors in their own group. Acting like all is well when serious problems exist in the Kingdom. I have one serious concern about this post. It would indicate that you believe the 2x2 fellowship is the Kingdom of God. This is the beginning of the "errors" that you refer to. How do you define the "Kingdom"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2012 11:55:20 GMT -5
I should have said "their kingdom". I try to use phrases that they understand and use.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2012 13:40:04 GMT -5
10 years from today, here is your list of regional overseers, eastern US: Ray Hoffman Jeff Thayer Gasser brothers (Glenn & Richard) Greg Harger Jeff Thayer
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Post by JO on Sept 9, 2012 14:24:11 GMT -5
I don't think that the current 2x2 system is conducive to opening up in new areas. Of course, if the current 2x2 system doesn't address its flaws, I don't see how we'll retain anyone once they figure out how to google "Cooneyite." All they have to do is remember the name on the front of the hymn book and google Hymns Old and New. I believe workers would have more success seeking converts for Christ rather than converts for themselves and their organisation. The concept that "Jesus never changes" is true. Jesus was the same before there were overseers and staff, conventions and special meetings, and the whole religious system that new converts are expected to adopt before they are considered to be "clear" and "showing signs of life". Its quite acceptable for a dog to have a tail, but when the tail starts to wag the dog its a sign that something has gone wrong.
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Post by emy on Sept 9, 2012 15:27:44 GMT -5
10 years from today, here is your list of regional overseers, eastern US: Ray Hoffman Jeff Thayer Gasser brothers (Glenn & Richard) Greg Harger Jeff Thayer Your saying that Mr. Thayer will be filling 2 positions? What happened to LS?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2012 15:42:55 GMT -5
Lyle may still be around. Frandle, Ross, McCracken, Barkley and company are going to be awfully old then.
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 9, 2012 21:26:03 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s. Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that. What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college. I doubt that Bible college training would work any better for workers than it did for the NT Jewish leaders. John 5:39-40 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. Jesus was not saying that it is not good to study the scriptures he is saying that inspite of studying them they still did not come to Him - believe in Him. I would hope that we all, the workers included would study the scriptures just as the Pharisees did. After posting this I realised this was from the first page.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Sept 10, 2012 3:32:42 GMT -5
The ministry could double it's numbers by allowing married couples to go forth. However I don't think numbers as such are a major concern for the church leadership. At least not officially. The falling away is probably seen as scriptural and prophesied, - shall God find faith on the earth type of thing. I think in ten years or so we will see married couples involved in evangelism, on a part time basis anyway, whilst still retaining their day jobs. There probably needs to be more summit meetings, you know where all the head sherangs get together to discuss policy, like politicians. Perhaps an APEC (Asia-Pacific Evangelism Convention) get-together. Leave the Europeans out of it. They tend to confuse the issue. There are many things that urgently need to be discussed at a leadership level. I think the Holy Spirit gets a bit sick and tired of micro-leading folk around when they should know their own oats.
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Post by emerald on Sept 10, 2012 8:12:50 GMT -5
There probably needs to be more summit meetings, you know where all the head sherangs get together to discuss policy, like politicians. Perhaps an APEC (Asia-Pacific Evangelism Convention) get-together. Leave the Europeans out of it. They tend to confuse the issue. If there needs to be summit meetings and shake-ups, we "Europeans" (although we tend not to think of ourselves as Europeans as it's a clumsy handle for wide-ranging cultures) will be there to run the show. We started the meetings, so it's our show or no show. You were all happy enough to have European workers tripping into your countries to sort out your theology and worship practises so you'll be happy enough to leave any shake-ups to us too.
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Post by Greg on Sept 10, 2012 9:25:13 GMT -5
If there needs to be summit meetings and shake-ups, we "Europeans" (although we tend not to think of ourselves as Europeans as it's a clumsy handle for wide-ranging cultures) will be there to run the show. We started the meetings, so it's our show or no show. You were all happy enough to have European workers tripping into your countries to sort out your theology and worship practises so you'll be happy enough to leave any shake-ups to us too. I think Europeans in general are about fourth or fifth in line for having say. In order would be Eastern USA and Canda, western USA & Canada, Australia, South America, then either Europe or South Aftrica. Still, a great deal of influence is American, both in overseership and finances. Ireland got tossed out of importance when "back to the beginning/shores of Galilee' became important and also when Irvine and Cooney were booted. By then Walker and the Carrolls had new "homelands". As far as the theology, that has been 100+ years in the making, The theology is undefined for the group. Trinity or not? Deity or divinity? Believe what you want, just don't push it on others. The worship practice is in day-to-day living and left somewhat alone to individual choice with some degrees of guidance/enforcement by workers past and present. European influence? Perhaps some.
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Post by quizzer on Sept 10, 2012 9:56:01 GMT -5
Hey, if we're going to have some theological discussions, why not add a good dose of nationalism? It's not like we don't have a heated discussion already.
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Post by emerald on Sept 10, 2012 10:22:48 GMT -5
If there needs to be summit meetings and shake-ups, we "Europeans" (although we tend not to think of ourselves as Europeans as it's a clumsy handle for wide-ranging cultures) will be there to run the show. We started the meetings, so it's our show or no show. You were all happy enough to have European workers tripping into your countries to sort out your theology and worship practises so you'll be happy enough to leave any shake-ups to us too. I think Europeans in general are about fourth or fifth in line for having say. In order would be Eastern USA and Canda, western USA & Canada, Australia, South America, then either Europe or South Aftrica. Still, a great deal of influence is American, both in overseership and finances. Ireland got tossed out of importance when "back to the beginning/shores of Galilee' became important and also when Irvine and Cooney were booted. By then Walker and the Carrolls had new "homelands". As far as the theology, that has been 100+ years in the making, The theology is undefined for the group. Trinity or not? Deity or divinity? Believe what you want, just don't push it on others. The worship practice is in day-to-day living and left somewhat alone to individual choice with some degrees of guidance/enforcement by workers past and present. European influence? Perhaps some. When we Irish ran the show, there was unity. That's why we had to axe Irvine and Cooney. They weren't united with the same Spirit as the rest of us. We weren't afraid to axe any that had a divisive spirit or preached a doctrine (e.g. D&R acceptable vs D&R unacceptable) that differed from our traditional position and understanding. Walker, the Carrolls etc. will still forever be Irish and when they diverged on unity, they should have been sent home to find their former understanding of the scriptures. Whatever you and others may think of Ireland and its place in the global meeting scenario, we have unity. We know where we stand on divisive issues such as divorce and remarriage, homosexuality etc. whether or not the positions are theologically sound, we know what they are. I suggest that all new worker recruits should spend their first 5 years in Ireland honing their theological understanding and then we might see some unity of thought that has so divided other countries. The overseers of other countries should spend a year or two in Ireland as well. Might sort out the divisions for once and for all and dispense with the need for posturing at political-style summits which will only have the rank and file in the Americas and the antipodes whingeing at the expense.
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Post by stargazer on Sept 10, 2012 10:46:11 GMT -5
I think Europeans in general are about fourth or fifth in line for having say. In order would be Eastern USA and Canda, western USA & Canada, Australia, South America, then either Europe or South Aftrica. Still, a great deal of influence is American, both in overseership and finances. Ireland got tossed out of importance when "back to the beginning/shores of Galilee' became important and also when Irvine and Cooney were booted. By then Walker and the Carrolls had new "homelands". As far as the theology, that has been 100+ years in the making, The theology is undefined for the group. Trinity or not? Deity or divinity? Believe what you want, just don't push it on others. The worship practice is in day-to-day living and left somewhat alone to individual choice with some degrees of guidance/enforcement by workers past and present. European influence? Perhaps some. When we Irish ran the show, there was unity. That's why we had to axe Irvine and Cooney. They weren't united with the same Spirit as the rest of us. We weren't afraid to axe any that had a divisive spirit or preached a doctrine (e.g. D&R acceptable vs D&R unacceptable) that differed from our traditional position and understanding. Walker, the Carrolls etc. will still forever be Irish and when they diverged on unity, they should have been sent home to find their former understanding of the scriptures. Whatever you and others may think of Ireland and its place in the global meeting scenario, we have unity. We know where we stand on divisive issues such as divorce and remarriage, homosexuality etc. whether or not the positions are theologically sound, we know what they are. I suggest that all new worker recruits should spend their first 5 years in Ireland honing their theological understanding and then we might see some unity of thought that has so divided other countries. The overseers of other countries should spend a year or two in Ireland as well. Might sort out the divisions for once and for all and dispense with the need for posturing at political-style summits which will only have the rank and file in the Americas and the antipodes whingeing at the expense. Unity? If unity in spirit is the goal I'm not sure Emerald's argument advances that cause. "Our way or the highway" is (from first hand observation of quite a few second wave [20's on] Irish workers) a characterization of the culture and it's influence, but does not capture nor comprise nor even represent what I believe to be a corner on "unity in spirit". As much as I love and respect these people and have known individuals that were and are quite spiritual, enforcement of cultural values on the fellowship worldwide has met with mixed results and has caused multiple problems. This now holds true if North American culture comprises the dominant influence or if it's that of Bangladesh.
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Post by Greg on Sept 10, 2012 19:28:15 GMT -5
When we Irish ran the show, there was unity. That's why we had to axe Irvine and Cooney. They weren't united with the same Spirit as the rest of us. We weren't afraid to axe any that had a divisive spirit or preached a doctrine (e.g. D&R acceptable vs D&R unacceptable) that differed from our traditional position and understanding. Walker, the Carrolls etc. will still forever be Irish and when they diverged on unity, they should have been sent home to find their former understanding of the scriptures. Whatever you and others may think of Ireland and its place in the global meeting scenario, we have unity. We know where we stand on divisive issues such as divorce and remarriage, homosexuality etc. whether or not the positions are theologically sound, we know what they are. I suggest that all new worker recruits should spend their first 5 years in Ireland honing their theological understanding and then we might see some unity of thought that has so divided other countries. The overseers of other countries should spend a year or two in Ireland as well. Might sort out the divisions for once and for all and dispense with the need for posturing at political-style summits which will only have the rank and file in the Americas and the antipodes whingeing at the expense. The three Irish ran the show after booting the Scot. Was there difference of opinion in the USA on D&R while the Irish were in charge? Supposedly George Walker was a trinitarian. If he was, there must have been very few that knew and likely he never preached or stressed that doctrine. The unity of the F&W centers around the ministry and meetings. Theology, some/most doctrine, and system-wide ordinances would only bring division at this point.
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Post by snow on Sept 10, 2012 19:29:49 GMT -5
Tell me you're not actually fighting over the rights to the 2x2 ism??
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Post by JO on Sept 10, 2012 19:52:51 GMT -5
I doubt that Bible college training would work any better for workers than it did for the NT Jewish leaders. John 5:39-40 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. Jesus was not saying that it is not good to study the scriptures he is saying that inspite of studying them they still did not come to Him - believe in Him. I would hope that we all, the workers included would study the scriptures just as the Pharisees did. It is good to study the scriptures, but not "as the Pharisees did". They thought eternal life was in the scriptures. It is, in fact, in coming to Christ.
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Post by quizzer on Sept 11, 2012 9:46:18 GMT -5
I wonder...if we let the Irish whip the worker newbies into shape, and then send to the different areas so that the friends can continue to shape the worker newbies, how many worker newbies would we have in a year?
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Post by lazarus66 on Sept 11, 2012 16:38:06 GMT -5
From what I know of Jeff Thayer, he has many sides, so could cover two or three spots. I have seen him as a preacher, a ladies man, and a bald faced liar.
If he was given two spots, he would still have room left over...........
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2012 15:51:19 GMT -5
I feel sorry for the well intentioned workers who are put in a spot of defending the system when the system is blatantly wrong.
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Post by lazarus66 on Sept 17, 2012 16:18:39 GMT -5
Walker, that is a good point. Out of all of the workers, the percentage of those that are definitely just "bad apples" is low compared to the whole number. We never hear much about those workers or overseers that do good things or have gone out of their way to make good changes.
It is just like the newspapers or TV news. You don't hear the "feel good" stories, just the negative stuff.
Too bad that has to be that way, but it is the way of the world and all workers, that I am aware of are from and in this world.............
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