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Post by hotrod on Aug 28, 2012 14:37:22 GMT -5
Don't know about the rest of the country but here in Oregon it seems there has been quite of few workers quit the last few years. Younger workers mostly. I mean if one were to compare a current Boring OR workers picture to one from lets say the mid 80's the contrast is striking. Seems like just a steady decline...anyone else noticing this? Of course... a lot of the "old guard" has passed on the last few years too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 15:06:09 GMT -5
Don't know about the rest of the country but here in Oregon it seems there has been quite of few workers quit the last few years. Younger workers mostly. I mean if one were to compare a current Boring OR workers picture to one from lets say the mid 80's the contrast is striking. Seems like just a steady decline...anyone else noticing this? Of course... a lot of the "old guard" has passed on the last few years too. There have been some statistics produced by participants here, I'm not sure of which thread it is on. Yes, there is evidence of a faster turnover of workers in the last decade+, but there are also more starting as well. There has been a decline in worker numbers but not as precipitous as the decline in the number of friends. Demographics of the friends indicate that new starts in the work is likely to decline fairly soon as the baby boomers' kids are moving past worker age. There may be an increase in the average age of new workers emerge too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 19:26:31 GMT -5
Seems like Indiana and Illinois have been hit especially hard.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2012 9:58:09 GMT -5
The workers are keenly aware of the problem. They seem to be unable to stop the bleeding, so to speak. They refuse to admit that they need to change their approach to the problem. They are always on the move. The power structure. The lack of training. Unable to straigten out dysfunctional homes. Not enough leisure time. And other reasons. The complain about it yet lack the knowledge or willpower to correct the wrongs in the ministry.
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Aug 30, 2012 10:27:49 GMT -5
The solution seems to be out of their grasp. Problems I see are: (short version) 1 dysfunctional structure - pyramid structure, power struggle 2 lack of training - what little talent is not refined and focused 3 twisted doctrine - people don't like hearing the word 'false' before doctrine - it differs vastly from 98% of Christian religions 4 isolated to the point where they couldn't function in society - their lives are completely immsersed in the religion (by design)
So, by design, the religion is self-destructing. With society becoming less religious and the abundance of information of scary religions (2x2s included), it only makes sense there would be a general decline of F&W. I think the F&W have been in a decline since about 1990 - maybe longer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 11:44:28 GMT -5
The solution seems to be out of their grasp. Problems I see are: (short version) 1 dysfunctional structure - pyramid structure, power struggle 2 lack of training - what little talent is not refined and focused 3 twisted doctrine - people don't like hearing the word 'false' before doctrine - it differs vastly from 98% of Christian religions 4 isolated to the point where they couldn't function in society - their lives are completely immsersed in the religion (by design) So, by design, the religion is self-destructing. With society becoming less religious and the abundance of information of scary religions (2x2s included), it only makes sense there would be a general decline of F&W. I think the F&W have been in a decline since about 1990 - maybe longer.Actually the decline has been occurring much longer than that. You are right in that the gross numbers have been declining since around 1990. However, the increases in numbers from several decades prior can be mostly attributed to the high birth rate of friends. The number of new "outsiders" coming in really seemed to drop off after WWII, maybe even earlier. The baby boom ensued after WWII and masked the decline because of the huge number of kids being born in the 1950's and '60's, then later the smaller boom of their kids in the late '70's and '80's. Now that the number of new children who are coming into the meetings have dropped off precipitously since the '90's coupled with a lot of people leaving since the '90's, the numbers are now starkly obvious. There is only one answer for reversing that: 1.have a collective soul-searching within the ministry group for what they are offering people, 2.make the relevant changes, 3.hand the church operational affairs and pastoring over to the friends, and 4.go full time into evangelism and convention speaking. Instead of hanging tightly on to the friends, the ministry group needs to let it go and cast their bread out into the waters. That will seem far too risky for most workers, but there is no other way: the status quo = certain decline.
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2012 12:24:35 GMT -5
In 1988, the year before I started in the work, there were five workers who started in the work in this state. Of those five, none have continued. I started in the work in this state the following year and I left that system as well.
I would be curious to know the statistics of the work. are the numbers in decline? When there is a need, what are the workers doing to fill the need? are they entreating the younger folk at convention or even former workers to come into the work?
What needs do the workers fill when they fill a need? Preps? Preaching? Canvassing the community for lost souls?
I guess the question is: Is the need for workers diminishing because of the lack of response to their gospel?
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2012 12:41:42 GMT -5
I don't think it would hurt for all young workers to have some courses in theology, leadership and management skills and some idea of how to handle the many sexual assaults that seem to come up. They go in as kids really, not knowing anything other than what their parents and the workers have taught them and a great number of them have never had any training either. You can't lead a group of people without some skills or you will have no end of problem imo.
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2012 13:12:14 GMT -5
I don't think it would hurt for all young workers to have some courses in theology, leadership and management skills and some idea of how to handle the many sexual assaults that seem to come up. They go in as kids really, not knowing anything other than what their parents and the workers have taught them and a great number of them have never had any training either. You can't lead a group of people without some skills or you will have no end of problem imo. Good post
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2012 14:18:57 GMT -5
In fact, Snow, giving all the workers constant training in all sorts of areas or in their gifted areas would only increase the abilities and effectiveness of the ministry. I believe spending that time and money in training would be far more effective than spending it on conventions...at least, in the magnitude that conventions are today.
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Aug 30, 2012 14:57:00 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s.
Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that.
What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college.
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2012 15:10:43 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s. Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that. What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college. Having the Holy Spirit would do...and the Holy Spirit might well lead them to taking Bible School classes. They could even try learning from other Christians who have the Holy Spirit. But, as it stands, they do not feel that anyone from any other group can have the Holy Spirit and if they did acknowledge that they MIGHT have the Holy Spirit, they could not possibly tell if they had Him or not. They cannot seem to recognize whether or not they are of the same Spirit as one who has the Spirit of Christ.
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Post by emy on Aug 30, 2012 16:03:03 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s. Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that. What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college. Having the Holy Spirit would do...and the Holy Spirit might well lead them to taking Bible School classes. They could even try learning from other Christians who have the Holy Spirit. But, as it stands, they do not feel that anyone from any other group can have the Holy Spirit and if they did acknowledge that they MIGHT have the Holy Spirit, they could not possibly tell if they had Him or not. They cannot seem to recognize whether or not they are of the same Spirit as one who has the Spirit of Christ.*sitting on my hands* (cyber variation of biting my tongue)
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Post by IllinoisGal on Aug 30, 2012 16:25:22 GMT -5
Seems like Indiana and Illinois have been hit especially hard. Thats because they dont want to be associated with Obama or any of our corrupt govenors!
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2012 17:00:45 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s. Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that. What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college. I feel they may find some things out that they didn't know before. But that is why learning is so invaluable isn't it? And, who said that the way they are preaching can't change a little? It doesn't mean they have to quit meeting in homes, having convention, or even going out preaching in pairs. It just means they would have a wider grasp of theology so they could grow even more spiritually. Having management and leadership skills would give them more confidence which would possibly lead more of them to know when they can help and when outside intervention is required. Acknowledging other Christians shouldn't be so difficult imo. I know that part of it is because they really don't know what other religions believe. How can you judge anything until you know about it? There are those that say it would be the end of the 2x2's if they change or accept other Christians are saved too. Maybe, but it doesn't need to. People genuinely like the meetings and the set up. We might see more people staying or even joining if there wasn't the rigid secrecy and condemning of other faiths. I know my parents didn't have any understanding of what other Christians believed, they just took the workers word for it that they were in the 'only right way' and any other way was a road to hell. If they had actually researched that instead of blindly believing it, maybe they would have been more open to understanding more things. Spirituality imo, is an ever growing understanding. We quit learning, we quit growing and when we quit growing, we become stagnant. Then we die.
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2012 17:29:40 GMT -5
Having the Holy Spirit would do...and the Holy Spirit might well lead them to taking Bible School classes. They could even try learning from other Christians who have the Holy Spirit. But, as it stands, they do not feel that anyone from any other group can have the Holy Spirit and if they did acknowledge that they MIGHT have the Holy Spirit, they could not possibly tell if they had Him or not. They cannot seem to recognize whether or not they are of the same Spirit as one who has the Spirit of Christ.*sitting on my hands* (cyber variation of biting my tongue) I base my observation on the run around that I got when I asked point blank about the Holy Spirit in others. So, here goes again. Can you name any of the friends who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and in whom you see the fruits of the Spirit? I expect you can. I can. Have you ever been in a meeting where you could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and everyone was in agreement in the Spirit? Again, I think we can both answer, "yes". Do you seek out fellowship with these people because of that Spirit? Is it the Holy Spirit in the friends that you recognize the world over and appreciate as unity in the Body of Christ? Do you know of any people who are not in meeting and in another church who is has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them? Do you know of any groups of people not in meeting that have fellowship together who are in fellowship collectively with the Holy Spirit because each individual is in fellowship with the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit are in their lives? If so, is that Spirit in harmony with those in meeting? Can they be in fellowship in meeting anywhere in the world because they are in fellowship with the Holy Spirit? Do you seek out fellowship with these people like you seek out fellowship with the friends and workers? I have heard many a worker and friends say that they believe that there are people outside who are "saved"(that is, have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them) but that is about as far as most will go. They say they "do not want to be judgmental" and say that someone is unsaved. However, they do not seem to know the same recognition and fellowship with "saved outsiders" as they do with the friends. Is it the same Spirit or isn't it? If it is, then the friends and workers should be recognizing that there are certainly other preachers and congregations who are led by the Spirit and will certainly have fellowship with them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 17:59:22 GMT -5
2 trends occuring at the same time-Younger workers becoming discouraged. Older ones dying off or becoming unable for the stress of the ministry. If there are so many workers in developing countries, why aren't the US/Canadian/british/Aussie workers sent back to their homelands?
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Post by Gene on Aug 30, 2012 19:35:47 GMT -5
Having the Holy Spirit would do...and the Holy Spirit might well lead them to taking Bible School classes. They could even try learning from other Christians who have the Holy Spirit. But, as it stands, they do not feel that anyone from any other group can have the Holy Spirit and if they did acknowledge that they MIGHT have the Holy Spirit, they could not possibly tell if they had Him or not. They cannot seem to recognize whether or not they are of the same Spirit as one who has the Spirit of Christ.*sitting on my hands* (cyber variation of biting my tongue) Sitting on mine too. <edit> -- That is, I am sitting on my hands. I didn't mean to imply that Emy is sitting on my hands. That would be weird. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 22:04:17 GMT -5
*sitting on my hands* (cyber variation of biting my tongue) Sitting on mine too. <edit> -- That is, I am sitting on my hands. I didn't mean to imply that Emy is sitting on my hands. That would be weird. ;D Emy's husband would also think it exceedingly odd ;D I always think of the lyrics of S&Garfunkel's 'One Trick Pony' whenever I read TS's posts: He's a one trick pony, that's all that hoss can do....
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Post by rational on Aug 31, 2012 8:39:11 GMT -5
I base my observation on the run around that I got when I asked point blank about the Holy Spirit in others. So, here goes again. Is this like you claiming that a moral code based on the fear of god is superior to a moral code not based on the fear of god? Talk about a run around!
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Post by quizzer on Aug 31, 2012 10:04:12 GMT -5
The solution seems to be out of their grasp. Problems I see are: (short version) 1 dysfunctional structure - pyramid structure, power struggle 2 lack of training - what little talent is not refined and focused 3 twisted doctrine - people don't like hearing the word 'false' before doctrine - it differs vastly from 98% of Christian religions 4 isolated to the point where they couldn't function in society - their lives are completely immsersed in the religion (by design) So, by design, the religion is self-destructing. With society becoming less religious and the abundance of information of scary religions (2x2s included), it only makes sense there would be a general decline of F&W. I think the F&W have been in a decline since about 1990 - maybe longer.Actually the decline has been occurring much longer than that. You are right in that the gross numbers have been declining since around 1990. However, the increases in numbers from several decades prior can be mostly attributed to the high birth rate of friends. The number of new "outsiders" coming in really seemed to drop off after WWII, maybe even earlier. The baby boom ensued after WWII and masked the decline because of the huge number of kids being born in the 1950's and '60's, then later the smaller boom of their kids in the late '70's and '80's. Now that the number of new children who are coming into the meetings have dropped off precipitously since the '90's coupled with a lot of people leaving since the '90's, the numbers are now starkly obvious. There is only one answer for reversing that: 1.have a collective soul-searching within the ministry group for what they are offering people, 2.make the relevant changes, 3.hand the church operational affairs and pastoring over to the friends, and 4.go full time into evangelism and convention speaking. Instead of hanging tightly on to the friends, the ministry group needs to let it go and cast their bread out into the waters. That will seem far too risky for most workers, but there is no other way: the status quo = certain decline. All of these options are immensely destructive to the mainstream 2x2 culture. After all, soul-searching has caused professing folks to be shunned and/or excommunicated. Making the necessary changes - how do you explain that the Way is right and never changes? Turning over the functioning of the meetings to the friends - this diminishes the importance of the workers. Having the workers preach - how will they spend time with the friends who use worker visits for prestige? These are great ideas, and would save the 2x2 system. However, they would also be extremely destructive to the existing 2x2 culture - the culture that the 2x2 jealots need to keep functioning.
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Post by ts on Aug 31, 2012 22:08:54 GMT -5
And the workers and system supporters still can't bring themselves to see the Holy Spirit lived out in others outside the meetings like they can those inside the meeting.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Sept 1, 2012 12:50:28 GMT -5
*sitting on my hands* (cyber variation of biting my tongue) I base my observation on the run around that I got when I asked point blank about the Holy Spirit in others. So, here goes again. Can you name any of the friends who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and in whom you see the fruits of the Spirit? I expect you can. I can. Have you ever been in a meeting where you could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and everyone was in agreement in the Spirit? Again, I think we can both answer, "yes". Do you seek out fellowship with these people because of that Spirit? Is it the Holy Spirit in the friends that you recognize the world over and appreciate as unity in the Body of Christ? Do you know of any people who are not in meeting and in another church who is has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them? Do you know of any groups of people not in meeting that have fellowship together who are in fellowship collectively with the Holy Spirit because each individual is in fellowship with the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit are in their lives? If so, is that Spirit in harmony with those in meeting? Can they be in fellowship in meeting anywhere in the world because they are in fellowship with the Holy Spirit? Do you seek out fellowship with these people like you seek out fellowship with the friends and workers? I have heard many a worker and friends say that they believe that there are people outside who are "saved"(that is, have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them) but that is about as far as most will go. They say they "do not want to be judgmental" and say that someone is unsaved. However, they do not seem to know the same recognition and fellowship with "saved outsiders" as they do with the friends. Is it the same Spirit or isn't it? If it is, then the friends and workers should be recognizing that there are certainly other preachers and congregations who are led by the Spirit and will certainly have fellowship with them. What are the fruits of the spirit ts?
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Post by ts on Sept 1, 2012 13:08:07 GMT -5
I base my observation on the run around that I got when I asked point blank about the Holy Spirit in others. So, here goes again. Can you name any of the friends who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and in whom you see the fruits of the Spirit? I expect you can. I can. Have you ever been in a meeting where you could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and everyone was in agreement in the Spirit? Again, I think we can both answer, "yes". Do you seek out fellowship with these people because of that Spirit? Is it the Holy Spirit in the friends that you recognize the world over and appreciate as unity in the Body of Christ? Do you know of any people who are not in meeting and in another church who is has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them? Do you know of any groups of people not in meeting that have fellowship together who are in fellowship collectively with the Holy Spirit because each individual is in fellowship with the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit are in their lives? If so, is that Spirit in harmony with those in meeting? Can they be in fellowship in meeting anywhere in the world because they are in fellowship with the Holy Spirit? Do you seek out fellowship with these people like you seek out fellowship with the friends and workers? I have heard many a worker and friends say that they believe that there are people outside who are "saved"(that is, have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them) but that is about as far as most will go. They say they "do not want to be judgmental" and say that someone is unsaved. However, they do not seem to know the same recognition and fellowship with "saved outsiders" as they do with the friends. Is it the same Spirit or isn't it? If it is, then the friends and workers should be recognizing that there are certainly other preachers and congregations who are led by the Spirit and will certainly have fellowship with them. What are the fruits of the spirit ts? Now, hold on. You know that. You have a Bible and you go to meeting and the workers surely teach about the fruits of the Spirit and how to recognize them in others. I am sure that you can and do recognize the fruits of the Spirit in others. Fellowship in the Spirit is the basis of spiritual fellowship. The question is, can you see the same fruits of God's Holy Spirit in people in and out of meeting? Somehow that is a hard question for workers and friends to answer. Emy says she has to sit on her hands for some reason on this subject.
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Post by JO on Sept 1, 2012 16:08:40 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s. Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that. What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college. I doubt that Bible college training would work any better for workers than it did for the NT Jewish leaders. John 5:39-40 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Sept 1, 2012 19:52:51 GMT -5
What are the fruits of the spirit ts? Now, hold on. You know that. You have a Bible and you go to meeting and the workers surely teach about the fruits of the Spirit and how to recognize them in others. I am sure that you can and do recognize the fruits of the Spirit in others. Fellowship in the Spirit is the basis of spiritual fellowship. The question is, can you see the same fruits of God's Holy Spirit in people in and out of meeting? Somehow that is a hard question for workers and friends to answer. Emy says she has to sit on her hands for some reason on this subject. This is what I read in the bible.Galatians 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. The fruit of the spirit is followed by the verb is. Therefore it is singular. The following are adjectives describing the fruit.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 1, 2012 19:54:39 GMT -5
Snow, It would certainly benefit the W to study theology. However, I believe they would discover what fundamentals of the 2x2 group are flawed and either reject what they learn or leave the 2x2s. Leadership and management would help but it is like our current culture - we tend to promote the best in profession to management - and not everyone is cut out for that. What they need is a 4 year degree at a Bible college. I doubt that Bible college training would work any better for workers than it did for the NT Jewish leaders. John 5:39-40 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. Almost any education has only the good effect on a person's abilities IF they are interested in them having a good effect.....however I know some bible college graduates who are pastoring churches all over the US and some European places....and to consider that some of these pastors are nothing more then regular factory production line employees, etc bible college seems to be favorable for their abiliities.
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Post by ts on Sept 1, 2012 19:59:00 GMT -5
Now, hold on. You know that. You have a Bible and you go to meeting and the workers surely teach about the fruits of the Spirit and how to recognize them in others. I am sure that you can and do recognize the fruits of the Spirit in others. Fellowship in the Spirit is the basis of spiritual fellowship. The question is, can you see the same fruits of God's Holy Spirit in people in and out of meeting? Somehow that is a hard question for workers and friends to answer. Emy says she has to sit on her hands for some reason on this subject. This is what I read in the bible.Galatians 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. The fruit of the spirit is followed by the verb is. Therefore it is singular. Right. I agree. Do you know any workers, friends and Christians who do not go to meeting who have the fruit of the spirit in them? I do. What I am saying is that the friends and workers seem to find it difficult to have fellowship in the Spirit with others who are not going to meeting and show the fruit of the Spirit.
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