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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 1, 2012 22:40:11 GMT -5
I am very pleased to announce the launch of the new TLC website: The Liberty Connection - Website The LINK is: thelibertyconnection.infoA hearty thank you to all those who helped make this website happen!This website is open to public viewing. It is a repository for documents written by Ex-2x2s and currently contains around 275 docs. Many of the stories have been recently written and have never been open for public viewing. More writings will be added as they become available. The Document Categories are: Why We Left Exit Letters Writings (including: Letters – Candid Observations – Bible Topics – Child Sexual Abuse – Analogies – Poems) Questions Books History Links NOTE: Some documents were copied from TTT and will be removed from TTT shortly. TTT will become strictly a 2x2 historical website. The Administrator is: Cherie Kropp Affiliated with The Liberty Connection - Forum NOTE: I'm still working on "Recommendations" and "Links" and the CSA docs.
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Post by JO on Apr 2, 2012 1:02:47 GMT -5
This kind of attitude needs to change, because its so unlike the Christ who we profess to follow:
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Dale Bors and Robert Gustafson talked it over and decided that Lorci would not be allowed to even attend meeting. Robert Gustafson and his companion came to our home where Lorci lived with the baby. They sat in our living room while Lorci sat with her baby in her arms and they told her that she could no longer come to meeting. I will never forget the look on her face when they sat there and so calmly condemned her to hell. Quoting the scripture about being unequally yoked they said that she couldn't come back. I said, Well, couldn't she go to Sunday morning meeting and just not take part?" And they said, "No. She has blatantly done wrong when she knew what was right, so she can't come to meeting anymore." Then I said, "Well, what about Gospel Meetings?" They said, "Gospel meeting is for the public and we couldn't keep her from it, but what's the point of her coming anyway?"
With that, Lorci got up with her baby, walked down the hall crying with such anguish and I just sat there numb with pain and did nothing, while they sat there and literally tried to take God from her.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 2, 2012 1:38:43 GMT -5
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 2, 2012 9:19:54 GMT -5
Thanks, Cherie, for giving a voice to those that have been hurt by the fellowship. Hopefully, like your historical site, the new site will be an instrument of bringing about needed reform to the fellowship.
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2012 11:38:34 GMT -5
According to the account there may be much going on that has little to do with the workers or any specific religion. Regardless of the back story, if the workers behaved as described it is unacceptable. There is a possibility that less than the whole story has been told. This is not the first professing girl to get pregnant while dating a non-professing man and the situations that I am aware of were not handled with so little care for those involved. This kind of attitude needs to change, because its so unlike the Christ who we profess to follow: ========================================== Dale Bors and Robert Gustafson talked it over and decided that Lorci would not be allowed to even attend meeting. Robert Gustafson and his companion came to our home where Lorci lived with the baby. They sat in our living room while Lorci sat with her baby in her arms and they told her that she could no longer come to meeting. I will never forget the look on her face when they sat there and so calmly condemned her to hell. Quoting the scripture about being unequally yoked they said that she couldn't come back. I said, Well, couldn't she go to Sunday morning meeting and just not take part?" And they said, "No. She has blatantly done wrong when she knew what was right, so she can't come to meeting anymore." Then I said, "Well, what about Gospel Meetings?" They said, "Gospel meeting is for the public and we couldn't keep her from it, but what's the point of her coming anyway?" With that, Lorci got up with her baby, walked down the hall crying with such anguish and I just sat there numb with pain and did nothing, while they sat there and literally tried to take God from her.
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Post by JO on Apr 2, 2012 13:44:04 GMT -5
Regardless of the back story, if the workers behaved as described it is unacceptable. There is a possibility that less than the whole story has been told. This is not the first professing girl to get pregnant while dating a non-professing man and the situations that I am aware of were not handled with so little care for those involved. I agree RAT, not all workers are like this and things have changed for the better in my experience. If no one is willing to make the rogue workers accountable the abuses will continue though.
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2012 14:02:05 GMT -5
I was thinking more of the emotional/mental state of the author. Regardless of the back story, if the workers behaved as described it is unacceptable. There is a possibility that less than the whole story has been told. This is not the first professing girl to get pregnant while dating a non-professing man and the situations that I am aware of were not handled with so little care for those involved. I agree RAT, not all workers are like this and things have changed for the better in my experience. If no one is willing to make the rogue workers accountable the abuses will continue though.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 2, 2012 14:23:46 GMT -5
Regardless of the back story, if the workers behaved as described it is unacceptable. There is a possibility that less than the whole story has been told. This is not the first professing girl to get pregnant while dating a non-professing man and the situations that I am aware of were not handled with so little care for those involved. I agree RAT, not all workers are like this and things have changed for the better in my experience. If no one is willing to make the rogue workers accountable the abuses will continue though. +1
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Post by ts on Apr 2, 2012 15:00:20 GMT -5
I would still be giving my support and my family's support to the meetings were it not for the fact that the abusive bullies are the ones in power. The spirit of the leaders is affecting the whole congregation. At the very least it is making the righteous ones, for the most part, complacent about standing for truth.
A little truth can beat a lot of bullying. The fact that the bullying persists should show how much bullying there is and how little righteousness there is in the meetings.
That grieves me because I love the friends and workers. We continue to pray for them and know that God will change their hearts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 15:35:11 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 17:56:17 GMT -5
According to the account there may be much going on that has little to do with the workers or any specific religion. Regardless of the back story, if the workers behaved as described it is unacceptable. There is a possibility that less than the whole story has been told. This is not the first professing girl to get pregnant while dating a non-professing man and the situations that I am aware of were not handled with so little care for those involved. The problem was not with the pregnancy. The problem was that she chose to marry a divorced man. That is the reason for the ban from fellowship meetings and the expressed uselessness of attending gospel meeting. Gospel meeting is for those who may profess. While this girl was married to a divorced man, she had no hope of being right with God. Her only hope was to leave the man and live alone the rest of her life. Her treatment is not unusual. In our area, if you choose to marry a divorced person you are not allowed to attend and fellowship meeting and you would not be allowed to re-profess at a Gospel meeting so your attendance would be considered a waste of time. Messrs Bors and Gustafson are no rogue workers here, this is standard practice in the West. The only difference is that some places may allow the lady to attend fellowship meetings silently. However, if you have been told specifically by a worker not to get remarried or marry a divorced person, you are out completely. Note in the story that the workers stated that "she knew" better which means almost certainly that after she got pregnant, she was told not to marry the father. Standard stuff in the West and most of the world. Not so in the East of the US. Hope that interprets the events for you rational.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 5:26:29 GMT -5
Gospel meeting is for those who may profess. While this girl was married to a divorced man, she had no hope of being right with God. Her only hope was to leave the man and live alone the rest of her life. As some have found out, even within 2x2ism there is another hope of her becoming right with the workers. If she should arrange for her new husband to die, then she is back in good standing again. Even if she should kill him herself, with 2x2ism that sin would be more forgivable than being married to him. -- Strange doctrine, to say the least. A doctrine about as godly as the neighbors cat!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 6:01:37 GMT -5
Clearday what a discusting statement, "While this girl was married to a divoiced man, she had no hope of being right with God". You or any other human cannot make that judgement. We know God as a merciful God, and he will receive all who call upon his name. Many of us have found God, and are right with God, without going to Gospel meetings. Please take those 2x2 blinkers off. Also please tell me if the man is allowed to profess? .
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2012 7:55:10 GMT -5
Hope that interprets the events for you rational. Thanks. I responded to quickly and thought the marriage came after the event. I wonder what the status would be since the woman got out of that 'evil' marriage?
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2012 8:01:17 GMT -5
Clearday what a discusting statement, "While this girl was married to a divoiced man, she had no hope of being right with God". I believe CD was simply explaining it to me and not making any judgment calls.On the other hand, of course he can make that judgment. It may not mean anything but it can be made. We also know, as in the case with Pharaoh that even when Pharaoh said he would do as god asked that god rejected that and brought on more plagues. God is a tricky being to try to figure out!This too would be a judgment call on your part.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 8:27:56 GMT -5
Gospel meeting is for those who may profess. While this girl was married to a divorced man, she had no hope of being right with God. Her only hope was to leave the man and live alone the rest of her life. As some have found out, even within 2x2ism there is another hope of her becoming right with the workers. If she should arrange for her new husband to die, then she is back in good standing again. Even if she should kill him herself, with 2x2ism that sin would be more forgivable than being married to him. -- Strange doctrine, to say the least. A doctrine about as godly as the neighbors cat!! Oh edgar, I think that you are going over the top here. Is there any evidence of this? bring forward some real life examples/cases without identifying the interactors/subjects.
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Post by JO on Apr 3, 2012 13:09:09 GMT -5
As some have found out, even within 2x2ism there is another hope of her becoming right with the workers. If she should arrange for her new husband to die, then she is back in good standing again. Even if she should kill him herself, with 2x2ism that sin would be more forgivable than being married to him. -- Strange doctrine, to say the least. A doctrine about as godly as the neighbors cat!! Oh edgar, I think that you are going over the top here. Is there any evidence of this? bring forward some real life examples/cases without identifying the interactors/subjects. Workers uphold King David as a godly man.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 13:26:20 GMT -5
Clearday what a discusting statement, "While this girl was married to a divoiced man, she had no hope of being right with God". You or any other human cannot make that judgement. We know God as a merciful God, and he will receive all who call upon his name. Many of us have found God, and are right with God, without going to Gospel meetings. Please take those 2x2 blinkers off. Also please tell me if the man is allowed to profess? . You're right. I can't make that judgment.....and I don't. I'm not the person telling people that even attending gospel meeting would be a waste of their time. To answer your second question. In the case of a professing person marrying a divorced outsider with no 2x2 background, the divorced outsider would typically be allowed to profess.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 15:12:35 GMT -5
Clearday , thank you for your helpful answer to my question. What a crazy situation, a 2x2 marries a divorced person, gets tossed out. A divorced person with no 2x2 background is allowed in. Come on, how stupid is that. It would be a joke if it weren't so serious. As a 2x2 I was never aware that the doctrine was such a mess. I think it is high time that some of those wise workers sort the mess out. On second thoughts it may need wiser people than workers, get an Attorney. The funds are there,it would be well spent.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 3, 2012 16:26:26 GMT -5
Oh edgar, I think that you are going over the top here. Is there any evidence of this? bring forward some real life examples/cases without identifying the interactors/subjects. Workers uphold King David as a godly man.
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Post by emy on Apr 3, 2012 19:50:25 GMT -5
Clearday , thank you for your helpful answer to my question. What a crazy situation, a 2x2 marries a divorced person, gets tossed out. A divorced person with no 2x2 background is allowed in. Come on, how stupid is that. It would be a joke if it weren't so serious. As a 2x2 I was never aware that the doctrine was such a mess. I think it is high time that some of those wise workers sort the mess out. On second thoughts it may need wiser people than workers, get an Attorney. The funds are there,it would be well spent. Some wise workers have figured it out. I listened as a worker explained that when evidence is found of the non-professing spouse (If s/he professes) showing fruit of the Spirit, it really can't be withheld from the professing spouse to also be included in the fellowship. However, in places where the "professing" spouse is not encouraged to be in meeting at all, what are the chances that the other spouse will ever profess?
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Post by emy on Apr 3, 2012 19:51:00 GMT -5
Oh edgar, I think that you are going over the top here. Is there any evidence of this? bring forward some real life examples/cases without identifying the interactors/subjects. Workers uphold King David as a godly man. You think differently about that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 21:04:16 GMT -5
Thanks emy. What a mess!!!. Sounds like worker logic, that is why they need an Attorney.
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Post by JO on Apr 3, 2012 21:26:15 GMT -5
Workers uphold King David as a godly man. You think differently about that? If King David had married his lover without first murdering her husband, then he could not have professed until Uriah died. Workers would accept David after murdering his lover's husband, but they wouldn't have accepted him while Uriah still lived. I remember a man being kicked out of meetings because he'd been married in a far country many years before. He had no idea if his former wife was even alive, and neither did the workers. If he'd had lots of money he could have hired an investigator to find out I suppose, but it would have made no difference to the reality of the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2012 1:03:38 GMT -5
As some have found out, even within 2x2ism there is another hope of her becoming right with the workers. If she should arrange for her new husband to die, then she is back in good standing again. Even if she should kill him herself, with 2x2ism that sin would be more forgivable than being married to him. -- Strange doctrine, to say the least. A doctrine about as godly as the neighbors cat!! Oh edgar, I think that you are going over the top here. Is there any evidence of this? bring forward some real life examples/cases without identifying the interactors/subjects. No, I don't have a specific example where a ex-2x2 divorsee was proven to have killed their 'unsuitable declared partner' just to be re-installed amongst the true and faithful within 2x2 membership. But that is the result of the 2x2 policy as it is inforced today. The highest 2x2 leadership in their holiest voices, will emphatically (and correctly) declare murder as a forgiveable sin, but not love and commitment to a divorsed person. And I do have examples of non-accepted 2x2 people because of the divorce issue, that directly upon the news of the death of their partner being offered 'full true and faithful status' membership in the group again. If you need names, dates and location, I can provide them. This man, a close friend of ours, was so upset at the workers insinuation of the positive effects of his wifes tragic and untimely passing that he of course didn't accept the invitation. This happened close to the time of our expulsion, so he spent considerable time with us then. He passed away himself a few years later .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2012 8:09:54 GMT -5
Oh edgar, I think that you are going over the top here. Is there any evidence of this? bring forward some real life examples/cases without identifying the interactors/subjects. No, I don't have a specific example where a ex-2x2 divorsee was proven to have killed their 'unsuitable declared partner' just to be re-installed amongst the true and faithful within 2x2 membership. But that is the result of the 2x2 policy as it is inforced today. The highest 2x2 leadership in their holiest voices, will emphatically (and correctly) declare murder as a forgiveable sin, but not love and commitment to a divorsed person. And I do have examples of non-accepted 2x2 people because of the divorce issue, that directly upon the news of the death of their partner being offered 'full true and faithful status' membership in the group again. If you need names, dates and location, I can provide them. This man, a close friend of ours, was so upset at the workers insinuation of the positive effects of his wifes tragic and untimely passing that he of course didn't accept the invitation. This happened close to the time of our expulsion, so he spent considerable time with us then. He passed away himself a few years later . I know of a case exactly like that one too. It was a tragic death of an ex-spouse and the workers were quick to visit the person and inform them that they could profess again immediately, all was well with their salvation now. Similarly to Edgar's example, the person was shocked at how quickly this happened. In this case though, the person did take the invitation and re-professed after an appropriate mourning time. This is quite recent. I also know of another example of an overseer advising a divorced person to pray for the death of her husband so she could be free to marry. This example goes back a couple of decades.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 4, 2012 9:47:19 GMT -5
No, I don't have a specific example where a ex-2x2 divorsee was proven to have killed their 'unsuitable declared partner' just to be re-installed amongst the true and faithful within 2x2 membership. But that is the result of the 2x2 policy as it is inforced today. The highest 2x2 leadership in their holiest voices, will emphatically (and correctly) declare murder as a forgiveable sin, but not love and commitment to a divorsed person. And I do have examples of non-accepted 2x2 people because of the divorce issue, that directly upon the news of the death of their partner being offered 'full true and faithful status' membership in the group again. If you need names, dates and location, I can provide them. This man, a close friend of ours, was so upset at the workers insinuation of the positive effects of his wifes tragic and untimely passing that he of course didn't accept the invitation. This happened close to the time of our expulsion, so he spent considerable time with us then. He passed away himself a few years later . I know of a case exactly like that one too. It was a tragic death of an ex-spouse and the workers were quick to visit the person and inform them that they could profess again immediately, all was well with their salvation now. Similarly to Edgar's example, the person was shocked at how quickly this happened. In this case though, the person did take the invitation and re-professed after an appropriate mourning time. This is quite recent. I also know of another example of an overseer advising a divorced person to pray for the death of her husband so she could be free to marry. This example goes back a couple of decades. CD Doesn't that say volumns about the distorted reality of the workers attitude? ken
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Post by ronhall on Apr 4, 2012 12:27:01 GMT -5
Pray for the death of her husband?
Reminds me of a comment I saw on a church bulletin board that went something like this:
God has three answers to our prayers:
1) Yes
2) No
3) Don't press your luck
"What will the answer be, what will the answer be?"
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