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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 10:20:27 GMT -5
This weekend produced an interesting development, and a comment about the development. TLC "will give birth to a new TLC Website which the public will be able to view". professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=truth&thread=14891&page=3#418161The interesting comment was; Lets think about this a bit. First the implication that TLC members bring pearls and holy things to the TMB dogs and swine who then rend them for it. Let's look at some of these holy things and pearls cast to TMB's swine and dogs by TLC members, here are a few thread titles from just the first two pages of the main TMB board; "What Do Some People Believe Jesus is God?" "Unbiblical Teachings of Wm. Irvine Recorded" "What is a Cult?" "Why Should We Be Concerned About Wm. Irvine?" "Beating the System." Reading through the threads will reveal the holy thing, the pearl of great price presented, shouldn't take too long for any dog or swine here to get it. These kinds of pearls and holy things are brought to TMB over and over and over, ad nauseum. We may be dogs and swine but we can think and see for ourselves, especially when it's something this often and obvious. Second, JO recently posted; Its interesting that the bible records the negative along with the positive, yet F&W today typically only want to hear the positive. For me (and I suspect many others, exes included) it's not that we want to hear only the positive, its that we don't want to hear only what's negative over and over and over again and again and again. Casually looking over thread titles leaves little question a fairly common hallmark of the pearls and holy things TLCers bring to TLB are opinions about what's negative. It is interesting that the reaction to any attempt to present the "rest of the story" is often met with a haughty, arrogant, and condescending attitude, "you dogs and swine are rending me". It's like what clearday said, slamming someone's face into their porridge and telling them to eat it to prove they like it. In this case the porridge is individually cooked up opinion, boiled continuously in the TLC/counter-advocacy pot, then brought to TMB and presented as an objective and universal holy thing or pearl of great price. When we dogs and swine protest the slamming of our faces into it we are accused of "rending" the bearers of the precious porridge. If the TLCers would live by their own guidelines TMB would be much different place, especially this guideline; PEACE & TRANQUILITY: Would this Applicant be a risk to the Peace of TLC? How would this prospective member affect the Safe Haven environment of TLC? Does this Applicant have a history of being hard to get along with? Has the Applicant been known to be disrespectful or disruptive in past situations? I don't see how anyone could say the thread topics like those I listed above are posted in the spirit of TLC's "PEACE & TRANQUILITY" guideline. Yet TMB is deluged, spammed you could say, with those kinds of deliberately divisive topics. Quite interesting from a big picture point of view isn't it?
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Post by someguy on Aug 8, 2011 11:38:49 GMT -5
Jesse
I do somewhat agree with what you are saying...however, I don't think members of the TLC are looking to sow discord over here. The reality for most of us is there was never ever both sides presented while we were in meetings. We would be the ones looking to present the other side and would be met with we are bitter, on the way out, jaded et cetra. If there actually was a balanced approach in meetings then there would be no need for people to post the other side on the TMB. People have spent their lives hearing the other side of the story, how wonderful meetings are, workers are only human, the way is perfect people are not that in the end, when you post the other side you are only resorting to what we have all heard hundreds if not thousands of times in meeting.
I know it can be disheartening as someone who enjoys the fellowship but one must think about it from the other side. Not everyone does. And many were only ever presented with one side while in it, so forgive us if some of us try to present the warts of the way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 11:58:19 GMT -5
Good explanation someguy. It is perfectly rational that a site like this would be more negative seeming than positive seeming. Negatives are not acceptable within the church, so the negatives get discussed here.....it's really that simple.
There may be (but I don't know of this) some scheming conspirators out there trying to twist minds.... but so what? If a reader isn't good at discerning good from bad, they shouldn't be here until they do develop some discernment capabilities. This isn't a great place for children or people who need to be propped up by a steady stream of Pollyanna statements.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 12:35:53 GMT -5
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 8, 2011 13:14:03 GMT -5
But Emma is a real person with real life family experiences Jesse. So she sees your church as a cult. If you read what her parents went through, and the responses from some of the workers/overseers to some of her family members, then you can hardly blame her for becoming bitter toward the church. Does that make her views right? They are to her anyhow, and the Massey family stories ARE based on truth. Just read Edgar's emails from the workers that he has posted on his site, and most people can understand why she views the truth fellowship as a cult. That is where statements from Dale Schultz are posted that point out some of the problems that workers face because of overseers, and also that the members face because of the attitude of overseers to problems that come up: A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field.Huh? How can a minister in any Christ centered church make a statement that another minister cannot.... well..... minister to needs of those who are hurting? To me, that sounds like an abuse of 'power'. While I can understand not showing up in another ministers field and PREACHING, I certainly don't understand why a minister can't even visit and minister in a one-on-one setting. (and I know that this is done by other workers, as I have corresponded with them and people they have met with. The difference being that there wasn't any power-struggles going on at the time) Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgment.Yeah..... those are sure words of a spiritual leader that I want to be following....... Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 8, 2011 13:26:48 GMT -5
And you know that I acknowledge both the good and the bad that exist in the fellowship Jesse. I post about both sides of that, and stick up for those who are true ministers of Christ, but also point out that there are some really poor spiritual leaders out there as well. BUT.... I freely admit that it isn't my church, so if the members are content to have the poor spiritual leaders, then it really isn't my business is it? (and if members do nothing to have poor spiritual leaders removed, then I figure that they are content to have them) Scott
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 13:45:25 GMT -5
Scott you didn't make the TLC cut, you and I are TMB brothers, the only question is are you a pig or a dog? Probably a pig judging by the way you enjoy potlucks. Anyway the moment anyone uses the word cult they condemn everyone in the fellowship. The innocent are condemned along with the guilty. And that ties into the point of this thread, the forest has way more trees in it than the counter advocacy presents. You know that yourself, which is why you are a TLC outcast.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 13:49:08 GMT -5
Sherbear here's the quotes, the first is a statement made on behalf of TLC members; TLC members follow Christ's advice when he said "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and REND you. Today, August 6, 2011 is TLC's 2nd Birthday.And soon it will give birth to a new TLC Website which the public will be able to view. "It was a great experiment!" TLC members follow Christ's advice when he said "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and REND you. I'm sure everyone will be eagerly looking forward to this landmark development. I rest my case. TMB will REND you. ( Tear you apart.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 13:51:36 GMT -5
As far as I know, you're the only one calling me a swinely dog! oink bark oink bark. I haven't gotten any nasty PM's from my little slice and dice post there.....and didn't even get much argument from anyone on the board. From that, it tells me that the author of that little piece is not taken seriously by anyone, at least no one who cares enough to defend it. Emma has a story to tell, let's let her tell it: "Emma Massey's childhood was different from most others. She did not meet with the children she wanted, she had to dress in long skirts. Makeup and jewelry was totally out and she was not allowed to watch television. It was the rules of the sect Two by Two's. - I have been robbed of my childhood, she says."I can tell you that my daughter can't say any of the above.....but Emma's story is Emma's story and it probably applies to a lot of kids like her. As an old Hungarian lady I know says: "What can do?"
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 14:14:10 GMT -5
"Slice and dice" is just a polite way of saying rending isn't it?
Again when using the word cult in her atrocity story Emma includes your daughter and others like her. This is the problem, your daugher and others like her become non-existant, and if you dare mention they in fact do exist you are rending the atrocity story.
I may sound harsh but this is the way it is. Atrocity stories harm the cause of those telling the story as often as the entity they advocating against. The real solution is love, love 'em all and let God sort them out. Ultimately it's not our to judge anyway.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 14:18:34 GMT -5
Who robbed Emma of her childhood? Who didn't let her meet with the children she wanted to? Who didn't allow her to watch television?
Who were her parents?
The cult?
"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for your enemy to die."
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Post by imnx2 on Aug 8, 2011 14:21:45 GMT -5
Who robbed Emma of her childhood? Who didn't let her meet with the children she wanted to? Who didn't allow her to watch television? Who were her parents? The cult? "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for your enemy to die." That was my thought...."where was mom and dad?" I recall quite a few pre-teens, teens, and young adults in my time with the F&W. Over eight years there seemed to be little, if any "my life is taken from me". Quite the opposite, really. Forgot.... oink!
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 8, 2011 14:23:08 GMT -5
Scott you didn't make the TLC cut, you and I are TMB brothers, the only question is are you a pig or a dog? Probably a pig judging by the way you enjoy potlucks. Anyway the moment anyone uses the word cult they condemn everyone in the fellowship. The innocent are condemned along with the guilty. And that ties into the point of this thread, the forest has way more trees in it than the counter advocacy presents. You know that yourself, which is why you are a TLC outcast. I am BOTH a pig and a dog Jesse! You are right about me being a TLC outcast...... I was not seen as a good fit for the TLC board, and my registration was denied there. After looking through the rules for joining I could certainly see why they didn't want me there. I am much too friendly with friends and workers to be allowed to read what exes might be posting there, and of course being the 'worker lover' that I am, I would NEVER say anything bad about a worker ever-never-ever........ Oh well..... Us people that are in the bridge-building business just don't have many people that can trust us. One day you are my Buddie, and the next day you're screaming at me about being a counter ardvark, and likewise some of the exes do the same. I'm gonna take my toys and go home now cause nobody loves me anymore........... Scott
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 14:43:36 GMT -5
Who robbed Emma of her childhood? Who didn't let her meet with the children she wanted to? Who didn't allow her to watch television? Who were her parents? The cult? "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for your enemy to die." It looks like she is out in public telling her story. Ask her, engage her, maybe you can explain to her that she wasn't in a cult and her parents are weird!
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Post by StAnne on Aug 8, 2011 14:55:22 GMT -5
As far as I know, you're the only one calling me a swinely dog! oink bark oink bark. LOL
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 8, 2011 14:57:16 GMT -5
Scott Oh you are ok in my book and I still love you despite the rough crowd you hang out with. ken
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 15:03:53 GMT -5
Scott you didn't make the TLC cut, you and I are TMB brothers, the only question is are you a pig or a dog? Probably a pig judging by the way you enjoy potlucks. Anyway the moment anyone uses the word cult they condemn everyone in the fellowship. The innocent are condemned along with the guilty. And that ties into the point of this thread, the forest has way more trees in it than the counter advocacy presents. You know that yourself, which is why you are a TLC outcast. I am BOTH a pig and a dog Jesse! You are right about me being a TLC outcast...... I was not seen as a good fit for the TLC board, and my registration was denied there. After looking through the rules for joining I could certainly see why they didn't want me there. I am much too friendly with friends and workers to be allowed to read what exes might be posting there, and of course being the 'worker lover' that I am, I would NEVER say anything bad about a worker ever-never-ever........ Oh well..... Us people that are in the bridge-building business just don't have many people that can trust us. One day you are my Buddie, and the next day you're screaming at me about being a counter ardvark, and likewise some of the exes do the same. I'm gonna take my toys and go home now cause nobody loves me anymore........... Scott Apparently what this board needs is a good bridge-building potluck.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 8, 2011 15:03:55 GMT -5
Scott Oh you are ok in my book and I still love you despite the rough crowd you hang out with. ken
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 8, 2011 15:09:50 GMT -5
Apparently what this board needs is a good bridge-building potluck
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 15:13:13 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 15:14:36 GMT -5
It looks like she is out in public telling her story. Ask her, engage her, maybe you can explain to her that she wasn't in a cult and her parents are weird! Did you find contact information, maybe she could join here and tell us all about it?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 8, 2011 15:16:39 GMT -5
LET'S GIT 'ER DONE!!!
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Post by emy on Aug 8, 2011 15:45:28 GMT -5
I am BOTH a pig and a dog Jesse! You are right about me being a TLC outcast...... I was not seen as a good fit for the TLC board, and my registration was denied there. After looking through the rules for joining I could certainly see why they didn't want me there. I am much too friendly with friends and workers to be allowed to read what exes might be posting there, and of course being the 'worker lover' that I am, I would NEVER say anything bad about a worker ever-never-ever........ Oh well..... Us people that are in the bridge-building business just don't have many people that can trust us. One day you are my Buddie, and the next day you're screaming at me about being a counter ardvark, and likewise some of the exes do the same. I'm gonna take my toys and go home now cause nobody loves me anymore........... Scott Apparently what this board needs is a good bridge-building potluck. There ya go! Maybe in NZ? ;D
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2011 15:50:33 GMT -5
♫♪♫♪ Flying pigs roasting on an open fire ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ swinely dogs nipping at the pearls ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ Scott Ross is raising my ire ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ My howls piercing Clearday's cloudy swirls ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ You know that Cherie is on her way ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ She's loaded lots of TTT C&Ps on her sleigh ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ And every TMBer is going to spy ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ To see if those worker quotes really are a lie ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ And TLCers bring a taste of heaven? ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ To TMBers about 1897 ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ Although its been said many times, many ways ♫♪♫♪ ♫♪♫♪ A very Merry TMB potluck, to you ♫♪♫♪
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 15:56:06 GMT -5
It looks like she is out in public telling her story. Ask her, engage her, maybe you can explain to her that she wasn't in a cult and her parents are weird! Did you find contact information, maybe she could join here and tell us all about it? masseyemma@hotmail.com You never know, she might want to join. Good English practice if nothing else! And a big bonus is that you can explain that she never was in a cult......something she's apparently unaware of at this point.
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Post by greatfull2010 on Aug 8, 2011 16:46:01 GMT -5
Jesse - Reading between the lines, you rightly point the finger at Emma's parents as they were responsible for her environment and boundaries when she was a child.
The 2x2/workers were indirectly responsible for the no TV no outside friends rules in my opinion.
Growing up - unwritten rules were rife. The sermons at convention were often clearly aimed at certain rules.
I know of a senior friend who has a large plasma tv in his lounge and you can be assured he will NEVER have a meeting in his home while the TV is there.
Its up to the individuals to make their own choices but you must accept that there are certain expectations and rules that come with being accepted and if those rules are broken then you are considered to be a border dweller and rebellious and on the way out.
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Post by someguy on Aug 8, 2011 16:49:16 GMT -5
Who robbed Emma of her childhood? Who didn't let her meet with the children she wanted to? Who didn't allow her to watch television? Who were her parents? The cult? "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for your enemy to die." Probably her parents who totally bought in hook line and sinker into the system. The same parents who will have heard not to let your kids watch TV or meet with other kids. So are they to blame for accepting what the workers preached? As I see it, no one who is still professing likes to admit there are unwritten rules, yet we all know them. The fact that people adhere to these may or may not make them good parents, bad parents, whatever. The real issue with Emma posting is she uses the word cult. This word tends to upset anyone still in meetings because no one feels like they are in a cult, sort of like no one who has left likes to be called bitter, jaded, unwilling for Gods true way, and so on. This is why I avoid words like this. Doesn't matter if I feel meetings are a cult or not using the word only upsets people and creates walls instead of building bridges. Personally I had a wonderful childhood, but then my parents allowed me to be every bit accepted with my peer group. It is true my sister didn't have earrings or jewelry, but she didn't wear dresses and for the most part she doesn't feel like she missed out.
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Post by greatfull2010 on Aug 8, 2011 17:51:42 GMT -5
Im in - whos joining me for a potluck and a singsong?
kiwi - are you are starter, Bert do you want to come over? jesse - might be a bit of a trip for you but youre welcome JO and clearday - you would provide some stability in the middle ground scott - you seem like a good bloke too cherie - I'd love to introduce you to noels noels - we simply would have to have you along too. believer - are you in? someguy - we could do with your calm perspective
If Ive left you out, please dont take it personally, the TMB bridge building potluck committee doesnt have the travel and accommodation budget that the IWTF ( international workers travel fund) has so we have to keep it modest.
Let me know if you have any special or exclusive dietary requirements.
Is it ok to have pork? Dont want to offend any swine.
Is wine Ok or beer? or do we stick to the OJ and water?
first step - kiwi lets catch up for a coffee and talk through some plans this week. are you keen mate?
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