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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 30, 2011 13:18:46 GMT -5
Thanks, Al...I've been convicted that the friends are responsible for what the workers have become...even some of the beginning workers changed into somewhat we see in amongst the workers today. I don't think young workers go well prepared for what the work really boils down to and that is the workers do have to live up to an almost impossible ideal just because that's how the friends see them or want them to be. That alone would be a burden that I wouldn't want to bear. The other thing that the friends have done to the workers is worshipping them, idolizing them, battling with one another for the workers' attention....it has made the workers receive their rewards befoer Judgment Day and it also has caused some workers to get enlarged in and of himself/herself. I see that IF the workers would have a salary, a home, a regional flock, and a family if he/she wants much like the Apostles had their home in Jerusalem though travelled far and wide....then the workers can go different places and preach the gospel and IF they still want them to go 2X2 let them go 2X2, for certainly 2-3 witnesses will bear up the message! I see it as a complex set of relationships, and yes, the friends are very much involved. Perhaps similar to the Israelites wanting a king, then God warning them, but they still wanted a leader, rather than being focused on their personal relationship with God. The "common people" were very much a part of it, but then so was Saul, as he allowed pride to have place in his heart, and began to act independently from God. I see room for everyone involved - leaders and the led - to question their own hearts and relationships.
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Post by imnx2 on May 30, 2011 13:32:24 GMT -5
And in actuality the workers' ministry is the foundation of the F&W fellowship....with no cornerstone. Actually there was no intentional fellowship, it came as a product of a successful experience run by WI! All they seemed to want to do at first was go out and preach 2x2 and see how that made the difference in getting converts and they did like the Faith Mission did at first and sent their converts to whichever church in the area was for them......then when they say the great number of converts, they made a conscious decision to form the feloowship or the lower tier of people. Yes, with the aid of Joe Kerr they got big in themselves and William Irvine even bigger. John Long seemed to be among the least. Anyway, they did become a fellowship and they are a fellowship.
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Post by imnx2 on May 30, 2011 13:35:42 GMT -5
I see it as a complex set of relationships, and yes, the friends are very much involved. Perhaps similar to the Israelites wanting a king, then God warning them, but they still wanted a leader, rather than being focused on their personal relationship with God. The "common people" were very much a part of it, but then so was Saul, as he allowed pride to have place in his heart, and began to act independently from God. I see room for everyone involved - leaders and the led - to question their own hearts and relationships. I have wondered if "the right church" came along because people wanted "the right church" being similar to the Israelites wanting a king. Yes, all are responsible.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 30, 2011 14:07:01 GMT -5
1) ~~ It was one of Leo's gifts in preaching and expounding Jesus apostolic ministry that opened my eyes about the truth, and way of God still exists on the earth today and for all times to come. You see I was going to a Minot, North Dakota Pentecostal seminary to become a preacher when I met Leo Stancliff and Larry T. were having Bible Studies for the college students.I see what Leo did for people, including you and Jayne, as helping them to see that they were personally bound by tradition. My maternal grandfather's experience and my paternal grandmother's parents' experience in meeting workers was the same, as they saw that they had been tradition bound in - respectively - the Lutheran and Dutch Reformed churches. I'm not criticizing those churches, except in that they had become "state religions," and therefore very oppressive. It helped my ancestors to think and to move away from oppression. Now, years later, I have had to move from something that I found had become very oppressive. And it was difficult for me, knowing what it had meant to my ancestors, until I realized that I was really doing exactly what they had done - moving away from something that had become too heavily institutionalized. The workers played a very helpful role for my ancestors, and I respect them for what they, as individuals, did. But when I am expected to give my allegiance to an institution, something has changed. It doesn't mean very much to us? I spent 18 years in the work, Nathan! I left the work because I felt I had "let down" "the ministry." When workers began to make things difficult for us here, I tried and tried to explain things away, sure that, in time, specific workers - and many of them - would see what was going on. I desperately wanted "the ministry" to be right. To say it didn't mean much to me is a joke! I was doing exactly what you are doing right now - attempting to negate people's experience by explaining it away, saying they simply didn't have revelation from God, or similar words. And, on the "flip side side of the coin," Jayne is one of those involved in the very same mission in which you were involved, and she too desperately tried to explain things away and to continue seeing them as "God's servants," until it just became too obvious what was going on. There is no nice, clean dividing line between those who were raised in the fellowship and those who found it later. Experiences are complex and they're "all over the place." I'm grateful for anyone who helps me to understand God and myself a little more, showing me where I can make choices that will affect my life and spirit. Again, I appreciate what Leo did in helping you young people to think about things. My wife's family was nominally Catholic, and I highly respect her courage in taking a stand that was not popular with her family. And I highly respect her again now in making a very difficult move away from that fellowship, which, in its own way, has become just as "traditional" as her family's practice in the Catholic church had become. You mention how Leo "opened the eyes" of the 12 students, but you failed to mention that several of them - besides my wife - are no longer attending meetings. They have their various reasons, some of which are just "busy-ness" with life, and one in particular that I know well did occasionally come to meeting feeling very guilty that she didn't get out, cried a lot in her testimony, telling how she was going to "do better." I also know of the role the elder's wife played (Jayne has told me) in "raising" the young girls, informing them of the "rules" about dress, hair, etc. when they professed. She was kind to them, and their home was a "haven" for these girls (and you know Manang was an excellent cook!), but she was also a very stern "lawgiver," and the girls were afraid to "disobey" her. Please consider these factors too when you simply say "God opened our eyes when Leo expounded to us about the way of Jesus apostolic ministry."
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Post by CherieKropp on May 31, 2011 8:50:41 GMT -5
Assuming again, noels? Your statement above goes to show how little you know about The Liberty Connection Website aka TLC. I was the one who invited Quizzer to join the Friendly Connection board (aka FC) which is contained within TLC. Quizzer fits the criteria perfectly: seriously questioning friends. And no, you dont qualify, so you need not bother to apply.
Making up special derogatory names again? I guess you aren't aware, noels that doing that reveals something about you. One of the first obvious signs of antagonism, irritation and displeasure, etc. being present in someone is the mis-pronunciation or misspelling of their name, and/or making fun of or picking at their name, not to mention calling members of your own church by silly made-up derogatory names. You talk about what you think some posts reveal about others - just thought I'd let you know that you're revealing things in your posts by your writing style.
However, you're not alone. Bert and Todd and some others rarely spell my name or the Luxon's name correctly.
BTW, if you want to retain your very shaky credibility on TMB (since your confession), you will refrain from posting things like your above post re Quizzer, which is an indication that you've fallen off the wagon again...that is "The Wagon of Your Good Intentions."
You're slow with your ideas, noels. An ex-2x2 compiled a 95-thesis statement long ago...
There's really no problem about where to post it should one care to copy Luther and distribute a 95-thesis. I suppose the the ideal place, from the standpoint of getting the most viewers, would be to put it on an internet website. That's far better than on a 2x2 meeting door.
I've also heard of people putting similar items in the Bible cases at convention (by night) and also know of a man who handed out envelopes of material at conventions in broad daylight as people entered the convention tent (Colorado). I also know of a man who put flyers under the windshield wipers of cars at special meetings (with pizza advertisement on the side showing out). Of course, one could also use mass mailings and mass emails.
So you see, there is no shortage of possibilities for methods of distribution...IF one were inclined to do so. One's imagination is the limit. I suggest you put your imagination to better use...clean up the "wrongs" and a 95 point thesis couldnt be written. I gave you some suggestions earlier. How are you coming with them?
CK
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Post by sharonw on May 31, 2011 13:19:50 GMT -5
Noels, my friend, I realize your buttons perhaps got pushed a bit too much...but for your own sake, remember your confession and all your efforts upto this posting have been quite nice and enjoyable.....so please take care, eh?
Your friend, Sharon
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Post by CherieKropp on May 31, 2011 18:45:58 GMT -5
no link available--it's not on line...
If you provide me with a good reason to provide you with "details" of the 95-pt thesis written by an ex, I might look it up.
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Post by greatfull2010 on May 31, 2011 21:46:41 GMT -5
Noels wrote
hi noels
You mention warts etc and that reminded me of a conversation I had recently with a professing ex mate ( I say ex mate because he and his wife have ignored us since we left the meetings). He told me point blank I was going to hell as I was out side the one true way. I said well if you make a claim that the fellowship you are in is perfect then thats a very big claim to make and it is a huge responsibility on all involved to achieve that claim. He then went on to say ohh youre just looking for perfection then??
I said No - Im not looking for perfection - Just honesty and to which he replied,
Oh you need to be like me and have a simple faith which questions not.
Well I believe that truth can handle scrutiny.
I think Ive mentioned it before noels but the vast majority of friends here in NZ that I met with over 40 odd years held firm to the view that the fellowship they were in was the only right way to have fellowship and that every facet was just as it was in Jesus day (apart from the clothes and houses , cars TV's laptops and Iphones etc)
Then there were others that said to us - we cant judge, I cant say you are wrong!! By the very use of that negative language they were saying we are thinking it but just cant say it!!
The real test of a worker or saints belief as to their fellowship being the one and only way is if a person left fellowship and remained true to their Lord and then wanted to return to that fellowship - would they have to re-profess, would they be welcome in a sunday morning mtg and welcome to have communion with out re-professing? In my experience, a returning saint would have to re-profess and go through the motions again showing to me that if you leave teh fellowship then we all consider you have left Christ!!
So while many friendlies and workers speak the line - we cant judge - there are so many that say this with no conviction and they are hollow parroted words.
If what you say is true noels about your experience being completely different to mine and most I had fellowship with, maybe it would be a great idea to suggest to Alan R that this confusion be addressed across the land so there is unity on that point. I like you firmly believe there are many friends who we can see the evidence of Christ within and if that is the case then clarifying some of these confusions would cause them to leave the fellowship.
I know of some extreme pain that current 2x2 ers are inflicting on their non professing family right now because of their belief that they are in the one true way and their non professing family are not. Its criminal and completely non Christlike. So cold and harsh and so cultish its just leaves me speechless. These cases are not isolated noels. I beg you please to put some effort and action into addressing this belief which permeates the fellowship.
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Post by ronhall on May 31, 2011 22:20:57 GMT -5
I will admit that I've left and returned many times. It was just not long enough that it was noticed, most times just a few days. During those times my heart was just not in it.
I've attended services of other churches. While there, I ask myself, "Is this something I would be interested in pursuing, long term?" For me the answer has always been negative.
So, for me the F&W fellowship is the one true way. However, I certainly wouldn't even approach the thought that anyone who worships differently is bound for the hot place where the sun doesn't shine! That's one of the things I'll leave up to the Lord because I'm just too simple minded to figure it out.
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Post by sharonw on Jun 1, 2011 7:47:48 GMT -5
I will admit that I've left and returned many times. It was just not long enough that it was noticed, most times just a few days. During those times my heart was just not in it. I've attended services of other churches. While there, I ask myself, "Is this something I would be interested in pursuing, long term?" For me the answer has always been negative. So, for me the F&W fellowship is the one true way. However, I certainly wouldn't even approach the thought that anyone who worships differently is bound for the hot place where the sun doesn't shine! That's one of the things I'll leave up to the Lord because I'm just too simple minded to figure it out. Ronhall, I hate to admit that I was much like you in regards to "other churches", I found them to be unpalatable and found the fellowship right in comparison. But now I look back at those experiences and realize that I had colored glasses on, the color that the brainwashing of the fellowship does and one is not aware that it happens. I was measuring other churches with a prejudice already in my subconscious self. I felt pity for those poor folks there that were so caught up in something that was wrong. But after finding out that the fellowship is nothing more then ANOTHER MANMADE RELIGION, I don't look at other churches or people with colored glasses any more...and I'm glad for I've met some of the most hearty Christian people and also I've met some very decent and loving Muslims....my life has been enriched in knowing these people. And no, I'm not into changing into Muslim belief but I'm more willing to allow that the Muslims are taught a decency as well as any Christian and I can leave that there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 10:30:08 GMT -5
Some professing people (including some using this site) fail to recognise that the F&W's way (including they) demands that God's way must be seen "their way." This is a self blinding principle and allows statements such as some submitted on this thread to be made.
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Post by imnx2 on Jun 1, 2011 10:35:33 GMT -5
So, for me the F&W fellowship is the one true way. However, I certainly wouldn't even approach the thought that anyone who worships differently is bound for the hot place where the sun doesn't shine! That's one of the things I'll leave up to the Lord because I'm just too simple minded to figure it out. Right, the F&W fellowship is your fellowship of choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 10:54:33 GMT -5
I've attended services of other churches. While there, I ask myself, "Is this something I would be interested in pursuing, long term?" For me the answer has always been negative.
I can well tune into ronhall's beliefs/findings here. Such was the culture and indoctrination I had been subjected to over many years about Satan's Slaves (ie the other churches) that it took many years for me to see through the evil of other fellowships and finally recognise that God was in them after all.
One by one I gradually tackled and eventually rejected most of the things Irvine and his spiritual progeny railed against in the world of Churchianity and in fact began to appreciate that many of these things had basis and precedents in scripture.
The scales well and truly fell from my eyes. Ron's day may yet come.
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Post by ts on Jun 1, 2011 17:08:33 GMT -5
So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere. ~~ NOT from the workers! How many workers do you know that PREACH and TEACH focus on themselves in the gospel meetings, convention, special meetings?
And what do you mean by focus on the workers themselves instead in Jesus or God?last year I was at a convention where the overseer, Dennis Kinnan, had a whole sermon about obeying the workers and spoke at length of the authority of the workers. He was quite adamant about that. Is he unusual among the workers? Is that the sort of example that we want in an overseer? If not, what are we to do about someone who preaches about the authority of the workers if such is false? I can print here the notes if that is helpful. There were at least 300 people there. Surely one of them reads here and can confirm that I am either accurate or inaccurate.
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Post by quizzer on Jun 1, 2011 17:50:06 GMT -5
noels, Why was the Reformation important? What was happening in society to cause the Reformation to occur? Just wondering if you knew, quizzer
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Post by greatfull2010 on Jun 1, 2011 18:26:42 GMT -5
noels wrote
Thanks for your reply noels. Ive re-read my post and I mentioned the word "criminal". I need to retract that comment because some of the friends self righteous views arent criminal and that was a reflection of my over exuberance perhaps.
In regards to your offer of speaking to these people, I thank you for that offer. I dont have an answer for you at this point as I need to consider this and pray about it. Certainly with the case of the relatives of ex friendlies, I would need to seek their agreement for you to proceed. I must say your willingness to help is appreciated.
I agree with what you say that this type of forum does limit the big picture of any situation and many views can be expressed as fact with out evidence to back that up.
I still have an over riding thought though that if the 2x2 ministry was in agreement on the fact that the ministry was not from the beginning and was not the only way then surely this message should be clear and agreed by every worker and then spoken to every member of the fellowship. I know Alan R knows of this issue and I know his responses to questions havnt shown that he wants this misunderstanding to stop.
If the workers ALL truly want to point their followers to Christ and Christ alone then why would you allow a major mis understanding by many in the fellowship to continue to be propogated?
It seems like a difficult and in efficient way to speak to each person one by one and does indicate to me that there isnt a willingness from the overseers to deal with this misunderstanding.
My parents spoke to a lovely old lady this week who was our elders wife in another town many years ago. She is a sweet sweet woman and she asked how my wife and I were doing (with a sad tone) and Dad said as far as he could tell we were doing fine and still loving and serving God and probably doing a lot better spiritually than a lot of friends who have judged them as going to hell. This dear old lady sputtered and tripped over her words as she tried to reverse her comment - well they are arent they?? My professing Dad was very hurt and just said none of us can judge - how dare any of us judge another ( he meant it) Her comments didnt hurt me as I know that her belief is misguided and she meant no malice. I also recall thinking just like her. So the question is - what did she teach her children and what did they teach their children - answer - Its the only right way and anyone outside our fellowship is lost.
It just seems that its ok in the 2x2's to be self righteous and judgemental on some things and its ok to bash other non friendlies for just doing good works and not having a relationship with God ( many workers have spoken this)
I think too noels that most friendlies of my generation spoke to workers in a "worker appropriate " fashion meaning their speech and true feelings and actions when a worker was in their home were modified to what they thought the worker wanted to hear and see. Now Im not saying that the workers asked or preached that this would be the case - its just how some friendlies conducted them selves. If enough people do and say certain type of action and words then it becomes a reality.
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Post by quizzer on Jun 2, 2011 7:04:53 GMT -5
noels, I guess I do have one more question (when you're ready to answer my Reformation questions):
Do you root for Sarah Palin?
Good on you, quizzer
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Post by sharonw on Jun 2, 2011 7:17:19 GMT -5
Sharon I didn’t have the time to answer more than the quick reply post to yours yesterday. a)If you were writing of the ‘noels of a month or two ago’ you would have been quite correct in your statement that my buttons got pushed a bit too much. However ‘my buttons’ no longer get pushed by the type of posts that I listed as in contention for Marteena’s 95 ‘Theses of Contention’. As I wrote yest when I first started reading and posting on TMB I was highly defensive of our fellowship and easily went on the offensive. Well in my short TMB life I have learned that there in no need for such and there in nothing good comes out of such. So to be quite honest the prompting force for my Marteena Luther came from my ‘wacky’? sense of humour? My it’d be quite something to see if Marteena fronted up to Convention with such an agenda! You being b&r? and well understanding our fellowship can imagine!!!!!! It’d proably be worth capturing on video and posting on You Tube?!!!! Well then even tho I’m a ‘worker’ I probably still have ‘too much of the devil in me’ to be considered a ‘good worker’? So there is a certain ‘irony’ to me of all the posts, bleatings etc of exclusivity of us horrible 2x2ers while the ‘exclusivity’ of TLC doesn’t seem to bother posters near so much? (I will get round to doing a post/thread on exclusivity at some point, at present I am still in the ‘tossing it around in my head stage’ on that) Well then friend Sharon I want to raise this last point with you. I’m wondering if we can have a TLC trophy arranged for TMB? TLC is in this instance an abbreviation for Truly Ludicrous Comment/s. Then for consideration I point forward the three forward post/s a) Naughty noels’ post with his suggestions for Reformist Marteena Luther’s 95 Theses or b) Marteena’s posts which Naughty noels quotes in his post or CK sagely advice to me in a post of hers professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=17631&page=3post #60 to 'paraphrase' she advises me to round up a bunch of sister workers and another bunch of Elder’s wives, get in a good Aussie or NZ shearing gang, get those locks all shorn off, get em outfitted in some decent pants/slacks/jeans rather than the out fashioned turn of the century (the century turn when 1901 kicked in, not 2001) skirts/dresses they wear. Get a bit of paint and jewellery and LET MY PEOPLE GO (in this case let my sister workers and elder’s wives go)
(Maybe our two Aussie TMB brothers Bert and Fred who seem to agree on most everything could team up and arrange the shearing/cheering gang?) Now Sharon maybe you see where I’m coming from? and how I feel that if I have made a Truly Ludicrous Comment/s. Then it can only be marginally more ludicrous than my beloved sisters in TMB, quizzer and CK? But you didn’t ‘get on their case’ like you did get on mine?!!! I actually don’t mind you ‘getting on my case’ but do you see just a little what I’m getting?! Sheesh, Noels! I'm sorry that I was "getting on to you!" But then you can remind all of us that when statements that are supposed to be funny and are not either said to be right then and there OR some kind of smiley face put at the end of them, then those funny or as you say ludricous statements can be taken in a totally different way then intended, eh? But then I'll try to stay in my own corner over here and let it go for I appreciate what you are trying to do and that is touch lives right here on TMB. BTW, please believe me when I say TLC isn't like what it appears to you that it is....we talk to one another over there and discuss many different subjects and a whole lot of the time is about what's in the bible. There are even people on there who are trying to get a recent word on some worker that they have known and loved....so.... I hope in time you will see that many exes still love the workers and friends in an individualistic way...they have sincere feelings for them....most of our problems with the fellowship has to do with what the powers that be are doing OR are NOT doing in certain things.... Thanks again, SharonW
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Post by sharonw on Jun 2, 2011 7:20:32 GMT -5
BTW, I do not know said "Marteen", so seems you have more "worldly" knowledge then I do...which is okay, but I'm just saying you're ahead of me on that....I spend most of my time studying medical things and I'm nowhere even on top of most of that field of interest!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 2, 2011 8:37:21 GMT -5
I see you're still assuming, noels. Yes, you're wrong--again. When are you going to stop thinking that you know how the exes think; and act when they aren't around the F&W? Suggestion: you might read the books "Reflections" and "Reflected Truth" to get an idea of how some exes think and feel. Reflections may be read on google books here: books.google.com/books?id=irN1JguOnIwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false The doc was written in the last 20 years, so does not rate the description of an "important historical document." I am not aware of any website that has it posted. The reason you gave (that it "would be interesting and informative") isn't good enough for me to care to spend my limited amount of spare time digging in my files to locate and scan the document for you. BTW, your post was quite "revealing"... CK Reason-If such a 95-pt theses written by an ex exists and contains anything of worth or credibility to it then I thought you surely would have had such a important historical document uploaded amongst the other historical and informative documents on TTT? Obviously I am wrong, it would be interesting and informative for all for you to post details of it here?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2011 15:54:50 GMT -5
I found this in my documents under the title" for worker to read" Worker I really like you. You have a wonderful heart and I can feel it. Understand one thing about me, I love for you to listen but I really want you to hear as well. What I am saying to you comes from my heart. I am expressing to you what many, many professing people feel right now. Young people, middle aged people, old people, all of us. You may not realize it, but in many areas we are at a cross roads. People are quitting coming to meetings and they will continue to do so, until we either fix our problems or if we keep our head in the sand, until no one is left. You see I hate people leaving our church to join another one because it leaves a hole. A good person leaves and then we are pained, but I can't blame them. I understand. More than anything I pray my words will reach a cord in your heart. A cord of understanding. If you want to reach out to people in this world, and if you really want to understand what the youth of the kingdom want, I am telling you. You can tell me I don't understand or I lack understanding or whatever, but the reality is, I am telling you what is wrong. Do you understand? I am almost 30. I have witnessed everything I have told you on here for most of my living years. I have professed for most of my life, but realized only in the last 5-6 years I had totally deceived myself. I had believed a lie. I believed we were the only way. I didn't actually put my trust fully in Jesus but rather in our "way". Scary I know. I had cut people out of my life because of self-righteousness. I will never make that mistake again. I consider anyone who trusts and confesses Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour to be my brother or sister. I know many people on this board through emails and I believe everyone here or at least most of us are Christian, another struggling soul, an equal in the path of life. We are all in this together. We only want what is right. We want bread. We crave it. We love Jesus and that is all we want. Period. We don't want to hear about workers and meetings in the home. Seriously. How many times do we read about the Children of Israel thanking God for Moses. Ah, I think never. Why? Because he was only a mouth piece for God. He never, ever praised himself or said he was important. Why? Because God could have used anyone. Such it is with us. I don't want my time wasted, going to a Gospel meeting only to hear about workers. I can only imagine how an outsider must feel. "Man, I came here to hear about Jesus and all I have heard about is these people and their great sacrifice or why they are right". "What a weird church", and then they never come again. Who are the losers here? We are. Why because our meetings miss out on adding a new voice, another perspective, another soul who will go and join another church. Seriously we need to add new blood to our church or we will start having kids with tails or three eyes. I am not joking, we are almost inbreeding. Most of my Spiritual growth, if not all, has come, not because of hearing workers or meetings, or elders. No, most of the growth in my life has come because of time alone with God. It is sad. I have had to ask myself why I continue to go to gospel meeting or convention when there is such a lack of substance. The reality is, I continue to go because I am praying and waiting for change. I pray for the workers, I really do. I pray God will help you see the importance of only preaching Jesus and thankfully the message is coming through. This year, one older brother fully admitted in a Gospel meeting that this way can't be traced back further than the late 1890's. But he is one of oh so few. It is a beautiful start, but we need more to correct the course many people are running. People need to be reminded and told that we are Christians, that we are only a Church, that the world has another 2 or 3 billion other Christians, not 100,000 or 200,000 other Christians. We need to take off the blinders and open our eyes to the reality that our God is the Almighty God, and He is everywhere. He is working in millions of peoples lives, billions of people actually and there are brothers and sisters everywhere. If people started to realize this, it would really help us look at others considerably different. More than likely it would help us treat others differently as well. We would become more welcoming and would quit looking down on others. I know not everyone does this, but many 2x2's here, if they are honest, will admit they have or still do. I know I have and I am ashamed of ever doing it. So, Christ has corrected me and I will never do it again. Ever. Worker, I love you and I love and appreciate the life you live and your convictions. I love the fact you love Christ so much you give your life for him. Please, open your ears to hear what I am telling you. If you can realize that I am not some crazy young guy, I am actually your brother, telling you and warning you that we need change. We need to learn to love again. We need to be Gracious and open our arms to our brothers and sisters. We need to refocus our eyes on Christ and not our little home church. We are only human, I know, but we need to work on things. Pray, yes, act now, definitely. May God bless you in your efforts, preaching Christ and Christ alone and I pray that maybe God will help you understand what I am trying to tell you from my heart. Hats off to the letter writer... Sometimes, those that write letters can get labeled as just being discontent, a boat-rocker, a chronic complainer and whiner, attention seeker, overly dramatic etc. But I think that letter writers are among some of the most caring people there are. The fact that they took the TIME to put into words and then into a letter their honest thoughts, feelings, concerns, etc, tells me a lot about their level of caring as well as their courage and ability to convey things. If they didn't care at all, you might not hear from them...just a thought... So, it's clear from the fact that there is even a letter and also from the content of the letter that the letter writer loves/cares about the subject matter. That alone makes me also think that the content of the letter is worth considering. When people put into writing something like as with this letter, it takes on a more permanent form-just as we as supposed to "document" things that are important and save them because they are meant to "stick" more than word of mouth or "heresay". So, we may not understand everything in the letter or ABOUT the author...we may not agree with any of or just a little of it. We might agree with much of it. We may not ever fully grasp the intent...but just the fact that it was written tells us much about the writer's care/concern and that is appreciated. Writing a letter like that takes time and some effort.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2011 16:04:20 GMT -5
BTW, I do not know said "Marteen", so seems you have more "worldly" knowledge then I do...which is okay, but I'm just saying you're ahead of me on that....I spend most of my time studying medical things and I'm nowhere even on top of most of that field of interest! Dear Sharon-Well, I am SURE there are many folks who very much appreciate and respect the fact that you spend most of your time studying medical things and that people benefit from that! Of that I feel confident. So never give that up. You can't do it all. Nor should you feel that you HAVE to do it all. That is one thing that Martha struggled with. But, if my hunches are correct-you may have TALENT in more than one area-gifted, even.[ That's my hunch.] You can choose where/how you want to "hone" in on your gifts. We all need encouragement, even those that we consider to be at the "top of the food chain"....and we are all given certain things-Praise God for that! It brings joy to my heart when I see people using their gifts or talents in ways that bring joy to them and maybe joy to others also...I believe that also brings joy to God's heart...and then again too, I also believe that when the Gifts He bestows are stifled or smothered or not used well, it must grieve His Spirit.
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Post by sharonw on Jun 2, 2011 16:23:16 GMT -5
BTW, I do not know said "Marteen", so seems you have more "worldly" knowledge then I do...which is okay, but I'm just saying you're ahead of me on that....I spend most of my time studying medical things and I'm nowhere even on top of most of that field of interest! Dear Sharon-Well, I am SURE there are many folks who very much appreciate and respect the fact that you spend most of your time studying medical things and that people benefit from that! Of that I feel confident. So never give that up. You can't do it all. Nor should you feel that you HAVE to do it all. That is one thing that Martha struggled with. But, if my hunches are correct-you may have TALENT in more than one area-gifted, even.[ That's my hunch.] You can choose where/how you want to "hone" in on your gifts. We all need encouragement, even those that we consider to be at the "top of the food chain"....and we are all given certain things-Praise God for that! It brings joy to my heart when I see people using their gifts or talents in ways that bring joy to them and maybe joy to others also...I believe that also brings joy to God's heart...and then again too, I also believe that when the Gifts He bestows are stifled or smothered or not used well, it must grieve His Spirit. South by Southwest! Thank you...I only mentioned this because Noels seemed to give me the idea that he/she would think I'd know all about "Marteen".....I actually thought "Wow! What a name!" LOL Take care and keep posting.
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Post by burdenofproof on Jun 2, 2011 17:40:21 GMT -5
Dear Sharon-Well, I am SURE there are many folks who very much appreciate and respect the fact that you spend most of your time studying medical things and that people benefit from that! Of that I feel confident. So never give that up. You can't do it all. Nor should you feel that you HAVE to do it all. That is one thing that Martha struggled with. But, if my hunches are correct-you may have TALENT in more than one area-gifted, even.[ That's my hunch.] You can choose where/how you want to "hone" in on your gifts. We all need encouragement, even those that we consider to be at the "top of the food chain"....and we are all given certain things-Praise God for that! It brings joy to my heart when I see people using their gifts or talents in ways that bring joy to them and maybe joy to others also...I believe that also brings joy to God's heart...and then again too, I also believe that when the Gifts He bestows are stifled or smothered or not used well, it must grieve His Spirit. South by Southwest! Thank you...I only mentioned this because Noels seemed to give me the idea that he/she would think I'd know all about "Marteen".....I actually thought "Wow! What a name!" LOL Take care and keep posting. Marteen/Marteena? That is an interesting name...As for Martin Luther: some view him as "ruthless" in his approach to Reformation. fwiw-bop
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 2, 2011 19:28:34 GMT -5
Wow, great links....Thanks for sharing. There are NO gatekeepers to the gate!!!!!! How dare we assume so. -ph-
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Post by JO on Jun 3, 2011 1:37:31 GMT -5
So it is like this there are 'exes' and there are 'exes', there are 'friends' and there are 'friends'....there are 'workers' and there are 'workers'. Thanks for this Noels. A big problem over the years is that workers themselves have broadbrushed "the ministry" and "the workers". That has created a lot of grief when individual workers have let us down. Workers are human and fallible like the rest of us. I'm happy to give them some slack - as long as they don't expect me to revere them simply because they are workers.
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Post by imnx2 on Jun 3, 2011 4:09:27 GMT -5
Again I cannot speak as a 'spokesman' for all workers I can only say that I have many failings but I'm not aware of this being one of them.....expecting anyone to revere me as a workers...rather I shrink from it. What does 'give me a buzz' is seeing people love and revere Jesus Christ. I know many workers who are wired pretty much along the lines that I am. Of course there is and will be exceptions. I cannot broadbrush and say all are. The thing is not a reverence for individual workers, but the ministry as a whole. From my experience few felt worthy inidividually of esteem and honor in themself, but the position....now, that's another thing!
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Post by quizzer on Jun 3, 2011 13:34:50 GMT -5
noels, As far as who was most corrupt, I would have to answer that the original Catholic Church was the most corrupt. This was due to its high levels of interaction and influence with the governments in different countries. The 2x2s are rather tame in this regard.
However, as far as practices go, the 2x2s have an equal level of corruption. The Catholic church had the selling of indulgences, the 2x2s have the buying of priveleges. This practice raises up the rich and reduces everyone else.
The Catholic church answered only to itself. The 2x2s answer to the overseers. God and the Bible are not considered.
Money affairs were not known by the average Catholic. The same happens in the 2x2s.
The Catholic church was smart enough to return to the Bible, and reform itself. It obeys the laws of the land. Do you think the 2x2s can ever be this wise?
By the way, what's wrong with releasing the sister workers from their dress code? Do you believe the sister workers cannot dress themselves for convention? Would their spirit suffer from regular clothing, make-up, and appreciation for the individuality that God gave them?
Just wondering, quizzer
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