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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 15:44:27 GMT -5
.. regarding this subject line/thread and the letter posted: seems as if the main problem the letter writer has is that they wish the workers would just preach the Gospel of Christ/preach Jesus- ---so then-how does one preach Jesus?to preach on Him one must know what they are preaching about-one must STUDY what they can about the life and death and resurrection of Christ and study about how Jesus touched the lives of other people-but not only that-they need to be able to tell others how to APPLY the life of Christ to their lives today-apply it in a personal way .. on a day to day basis .. how to apply-the application- how to know about Jesus? have to really get to KNOW Him-not just an intellectual knowledge or Biblical expertise-but PERSONAL knowledge of His saving Power and Grace .. and isn't that what He wanted all along: that those who personally KNOW Christ would pass it on to others .. pass on the knowledge .. pass on what it really means to know Jesus .. in hopes that others would also know Him in the way He really was and know as He wants to be known .. not man's idea of how we should know Christ, but Christ's instructions on how to really know Him and Christ's example - the life He lived, His ministry-His acts of kindness and healing, and miracles-His interventions on behalf of people who needed it
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Post by emy on May 29, 2011 17:18:48 GMT -5
Its so sad when you read from people like this who actually think the workers were to blame for their lack of life or faith. What's more sad, even stunning, is how many kids have been brought up to focus on the workers and meetings, not Christ. Who is to blame for that? If they only soak up what they hear in meeting - or part of what they hear - it may be so that they would have the wrong focus, but if they develop an individual relationship with God their focus will change, and what they hear will change and what they do will reflect the change of heart.
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Post by emy on May 29, 2011 17:26:47 GMT -5
I mean to give meeting participation and obedience to the workers a greater place than Christ. Where does this come from? Why do we hear so much of it? According to ettu, these are just sad people and it's not the fault of the workers but they are blaming the workers. Do they just have wild imaginations, just silly, stupid...or what is wrong with them? It's the human tendency to follow the person there in front of you, which isn't ALWAYS a bad thing, but for actual salvation one must know Christ. We must be drawn and we must respond. That can happen within the fellowship, and it might be later than sooner. (speaking from personal experience) In most cases, staying within the fellowship is a safe thing to do.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 18:08:55 GMT -5
I mean to give meeting participation and obedience to the workers a greater place than Christ. Where does this come from? Why do we hear so much of it? According to ettu, these are just sad people and it's not the fault of the workers but they are blaming the workers. Do they just have wild imaginations, just silly, stupid...or what is wrong with them? It's the human tendency to follow the person there in front of you, which isn't ALWAYS a bad thing, but for actual salvation one must know Christ. We must be drawn and we must respond. That can happen within the fellowship, and it might be later than sooner. (speaking from personal experience) In most cases, staying within the fellowship is a safe thing to do. yep, human tendency to look to other humans for help, assistance, rescue, saving/salvation and God has worked through humans all along .. and Jesus sent forth the apostles to continue to carry the message that needs to be carried forth .. it's all about getting that right balance; being a useful vessel without taking away from the most essential thing or overshadowing the most essential thing ..THE sacrifice of Christ which makes it all possible -- our love for the messengers should never be greater than our love for Christ ---sad if that is ever the case --- .. but as humans we can get distracted very easily and forget what our "mission" really is and also forget what someone else's mission really is and get into binding people in ways that is not good for us or good for the fellowship either one .. the 3 D's: distraction, discouragement, and doubt. ---i do not feel it is totally the workers' fault that the friends tend to see THEM/hear THEM and put too much emphasis on THEM instead of the essential message: it is a weakness with the friends--and also a certain amount of pride in being connected to certain workers as God's "only true servants" whom they feel has brought them salvation-well, the workers really don't and never have been the one's to actually "bring salvation" -- that is only POSSIBLE by God/through Christ-and if more accurately, it is a combination of things that bring that true Gospel message to a person: a combination of things that puts it all into play-it not only dangerous to give the workers total credit for "bringing the True Gospel" to a person, but it is also inaccurate-that worker is not the one who put themself there in a person's path: God, and combination of factors did. --yes,everyone appreciates the workers for all they do--and it is expressed a plenty--but, without the various, many friend that support them, the workers wouldn't have a ministry like they do--to reach the people they reach .. so when one wants to tell about so and so worker and how they have helped them so much, that's nice and all, but it is not really totally accurate as anyone who has helped or supported that worker is also behind and God is behind it ALL .. Praise to Him,the Almighty!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 18:23:29 GMT -5
What's more sad, even stunning, is how many kids have been brought up to focus on the workers and meetings, not Christ. Who is to blame for that? If they only soak up what they hear in meeting - or part of what they hear - it may be so that they would have the wrong focus, but if they develop an individual relationship with God their focus will change, and what they hear will change and what they do will reflect the change of heart. The fact that we hear from so many that their experience in the meetings brought them into a relationship only with the workers and friends may not be the fault of the listener as you, ettu and Nathan suggest. If we heard this from one or two people here and there, then your theory might be applicable. However, since this is such a common experience, it tells me that there is a widespread systematic focus on the meetings and workers surrounding around the participants which detracts from what should be the prime focus of the meetings: a faith in Christ. Your quote is perfectly applicable. If the tree (the meeting system and ministry message) is not bearing fruit, it will show signs of decline and eventually death.
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Post by imnx2 on May 29, 2011 19:44:40 GMT -5
1) Scott wrote: By that statement, do you mean that there are no Christians other than the F&W's? If it is only those that can spread the message, then you must believe that all others outside of meetings are not Christians. Is that what you believe?
~~ I believe there are MANY God fearing people out there.... Like myself before I met the workers. When I was a Pentecostal I spread their teachings.
The above exchange is what used to either frustrate or irritate me. No it just makes me want to cry. How sad for the F&W who have to commit to such vagueness. But they are trapped in deception. All they can do is continue in it.
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Post by imnx2 on May 29, 2011 19:46:27 GMT -5
~~ I am very glad that I wasn't baptized immediately! after I professed because I want to know and find out more of the 2x2s teachings. I was baptized right away after I became a Pentecostal which I regretted because I hardly knew their teachings, belief. - Nathan B
2x2s. Very telling.
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Post by sharonw on May 29, 2011 19:54:24 GMT -5
.. regarding this subject line/thread and the letter posted: seems as if the main problem the letter writer has is that they wish the workers would just preach the Gospel of Christ/preach Jesus- ---so then-how does one preach Jesus?to preach on Him one must know what they are preaching about-one must STUDY what they can about the life and death and resurrection of Christ and study about how Jesus touched the lives of other people-but not only that-they need to be able to tell others how to APPLY the life of Christ to their lives today-apply it in a personal way .. on a day to day basis .. how to apply-the application- how to know about Jesus? have to really get to KNOW Him-not just an intellectual knowledge or Biblical expertise-but PERSONAL knowledge of His saving Power and Grace .. and isn't that what He wanted all along: that those who personally KNOW Christ would pass it on to others .. pass on the knowledge .. pass on what it really means to know Jesus .. in hopes that others would also know Him in the way He really was and know as He wants to be known .. not man's idea of how we should know Christ, but Christ's instructions on how to really know Him and Christ's example - the life He lived, His ministry-His acts of kindness and healing, and miracles-His interventions on behalf of people who needed it How is it that we read of the gospel of Jesus Christ being preached in an hour, in a couple of hours....it does mention that Paul spoke for hours so much so that one man fell asleep and fell to his death...... How do we explain this gospel mission situation that takes weeks, months and sometimes parts of years simply because the workers declare those who are listening "just don't get it yet". What is there to get besides the fact of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
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Post by sharonw on May 29, 2011 19:59:37 GMT -5
1) Scott wrote: By that statement, do you mean that there are no Christians other than the F&W's? If it is only those that can spread the message, then you must believe that all others outside of meetings are not Christians. Is that what you believe? ~~ I believe there are MANY God fearing people out there.... Like myself before I met the workers. When I was a Pentecostal I spread their teachings.2) I wasn't talking about denominations. I was referring to myself as an individual. Do you believe that we are saved individually, or because of the church we go to? If it is individually, then it isn't the church we belong to that matters is it? It is our individual relationship with Jesus/God that matters. ~~ We are SAVED by Jesus Christ, individually, and the church we have the fellowship with.
I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we HAVE fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son purifies us from all sins. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we LIE, and do not live by the truth.3) Going by your responses, you only believe that those that profess in meetings are able to spread the gospel message. Do you think that is putting God in a box? Do you think that means that one must go through a worker in order to have a relationship with Jesus/God? ~~ Yes, I believe that... through the workers and the friends testimonies and preaching.Nathan for a young man as yourself to understand the Trinity and the Deity of Christ and you say that salvation comes from Jesus Christ AND THE CHURCH WHICH WE FELLOWSHIP WITH! Whoa there! Think that over again, please!
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Post by burdenofproof on May 29, 2011 20:13:27 GMT -5
It's the human tendency to follow the person there in front of you, which isn't ALWAYS a bad thing, but for actual salvation one must know Christ. We must be drawn and we must respond. That can happen within the fellowship, and it might be later than sooner. (speaking from personal experience) In most cases, staying within the fellowship is a safe thing to do. yep, human tendency to look to other humans for help, assistance, rescue, saving/salvation and God has worked through humans all along .. and Jesus sent forth the apostles to continue to carry the message that needs to be carried forth .. it's all about getting that right balance; being a useful vessel without taking away from the most essential thing or overshadowing the most essential thing ..THE sacrifice of Christ which makes it all possible -- our love for the messengers should never be greater than our love for Christ ---sad if that is ever the case --- .. but as humans we can get distracted very easily and forget what our "mission" really is and also forget what someone else's mission really is and get into binding people in ways that is not good for us or good for the fellowship either one .. the 3 D's: distraction, discouragement, and doubt. ---i do not feel it is totally the workers' fault that the friends tend to see THEM/hear THEM and put too much emphasis on THEM instead of the essential message: it is a weakness with the friends--and also a certain amount of pride in being connected to certain workers as God's "only true servants" whom they feel has brought them salvation-well, the workers really don't and never have been the one's to actually "bring salvation" -- that is only POSSIBLE by God/through Christ-and if more accurately, it is a combination of things that bring that true Gospel message to a person: a combination of things that puts it all into play-it not only dangerous to give the workers total credit for "bringing the True Gospel" to a person, but it is also inaccurate-that worker is not the one who put themself there in a person's path: God, and combination of factors did. --yes,everyone appreciates the workers for all they do--and it is expressed a plenty--but, without the various, many friend that support them, the workers wouldn't have a ministry like they do--to reach the people they reach .. so when one wants to tell about so and so worker and how they have helped them so much, that's nice and all, but it is not really totally accurate as anyone who has helped or supported that worker is also behind and God is behind it ALL .. Praise to Him,the Almighty! Nobody's perfect! However, people can experience perfection when they are fitly joined together in the Body of Christ. -bop
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Post by burdenofproof on May 29, 2011 20:22:15 GMT -5
.. regarding this subject line/thread and the letter posted: seems as if the main problem the letter writer has is that they wish the workers would just preach the Gospel of Christ/preach Jesus- ---so then-how does one preach Jesus?to preach on Him one must know what they are preaching about-one must STUDY what they can about the life and death and resurrection of Christ and study about how Jesus touched the lives of other people-but not only that-they need to be able to tell others how to APPLY the life of Christ to their lives today-apply it in a personal way .. on a day to day basis .. how to apply-the application- how to know about Jesus? have to really get to KNOW Him- not just an intellectual knowledge or Biblical expertise-but PERSONAL knowledge of His saving Power and Grace .. and isn't that what He wanted all along: that those who personally KNOW Christ would pass it on to others .. pass on the knowledge .. pass on what it really means to know Jesus .. in hopes that others would also know Him in the way He really was and know as He wants to be known .. not man's idea of how we should know Christ, but Christ's instructions on how to really know Him and Christ's example - the life He lived, His ministry-His acts of kindness and healing, and miracles-His interventions on behalf of people who needed it You must be born again! That is the only way to gain true Knowledge of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. Being born again is ESSENTIAL. Who gets the credit for that birth? Who really makes it happen? People can have a part in it, but the only way it is at all possible is because of God. God is the only One with that kind of Power; the power to give new Life. So, to give all the credit to a worker/workers is not only off base, it's inaccurate. -bop
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Post by sharonw on May 29, 2011 20:24:32 GMT -5
You say John said that salvation is from Jesus Christ AND THE CHUCH WITH WHOM WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH? Nathan below are different interpretations of those verses you mentioned and no where in them do I see where it speaks of the fellowship being a church, nor where it speaks of the fellowship that we have because we have these things in common so we can fellowship due to that common factor..saying that it takes the fellowship AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST TO GIVE US SALVATION..... 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all [fn] sin. This is the action not of a "church" but of individuals communicating with one another because they have something in common. Which is Jesus walking in the light as we walk in the light....1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. The first fact concerns the meaning of the Greek root. Our English word, “fellowship” is the translation of the Greek word, “koinonia.” This Greek word is derived from the root, “koinos,” which was a prefix in ancient Greek. If you were to add this prefix to words meaning “living,” “owning a purse,” “a dispute,” and “mother,” you would get words meaning “living in community together,” “owning a purse in common,” “a public dispute,” and “having a mother in common.” So we see that the root of the word, “ fellowship,” means “ to hold something in common.”Our second fact relates to the usage of the word, “fellowship.” The Greek word, “koinonia,” was used to describe corporations, labor guilds, partners in a law firm, and the most intimate of marriage relationships. From the usage of the word, we can conclude that fellowship is a word denoting a relationship that is dependent on more than one individual. It is an interdependent relationship. Fifth, however, we must note that fellowship does not stop with being an inner unity for it is primarily an action word! Koinonia is used nineteen times in the New Testament and in addition to being translated as “fellowship” it is also translated by the words, “contribution,” “sharing,” and “participation.” A close study of the usage of this word shows that action is always included in its meaning. Fellowship, you see, is not just being together, it is doing together! bible.org/seriespage/importance-fellowship-new-testament-church
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Post by sharonw on May 29, 2011 20:39:53 GMT -5
.. regarding this subject line/thread and the letter posted: seems as if the main problem the letter writer has is that they wish the workers would just preach the Gospel of Christ/preach Jesus- ---so then-how does one preach Jesus?to preach on Him one must know what they are preaching about-one must STUDY what they can about the life and death and resurrection of Christ and study about how Jesus touched the lives of other people-but not only that-they need to be able to tell others how to APPLY the life of Christ to their lives today-apply it in a personal way .. on a day to day basis .. how to apply-the application- how to know about Jesus? have to really get to KNOW Him- not just an intellectual knowledge or Biblical expertise-but PERSONAL knowledge of His saving Power and Grace .. and isn't that what He wanted all along: that those who personally KNOW Christ would pass it on to others .. pass on the knowledge .. pass on what it really means to know Jesus .. in hopes that others would also know Him in the way He really was and know as He wants to be known .. not man's idea of how we should know Christ, but Christ's instructions on how to really know Him and Christ's example - the life He lived, His ministry-His acts of kindness and healing, and miracles-His interventions on behalf of people who needed it You must be born again! That is the only way to gain true Knowledge of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. Being born again is ESSENTIAL. Who gets the credit for that birth? Who really makes it happen? People can have a part in it, but the only way it is at all possible is because of God. God is the only One with that kind of Power; the power to give new Life. So, to give all the credit to a worker/workers is not only off base, it's inaccurate. -bop Made me think of these scripture! Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
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Post by pinky on May 29, 2011 22:05:23 GMT -5
If they only soak up what they hear in meeting - or part of what they hear - it may be so that they would have the wrong focus, but if they develop an individual relationship with God their focus will change, and what they hear will change and what they do will reflect the change of heart. That's sad to admit that sole reliance on meeting teachings may yield the wrong focus, and that a relationship with God is required then to correct or sanitise the incorrect focus gained. So what's taught in the meetings may be no better in correct-focus substance than what's in the world ... because both rely on God to redirect and steer to a correct focus?
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Post by JO on May 29, 2011 22:11:15 GMT -5
How do we explain this gospel mission situation that takes weeks, months and sometimes parts of years simply because the workers declare those who are listening "just don't get it yet". What is there to get besides the fact of the gospel of Jesus Christ? The explanation is simple. When folks "get it" it means they have accepted that no one comes to the Father but by the workers. That's a harder sell than "no one comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ". When someone stands in a tested meeting it means they have accepted the ministry. When they are baptised, it means the ministry has accepted them.
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Post by emy on May 29, 2011 22:49:07 GMT -5
How is it that we read of the gospel of Jesus Christ being preached in an hour, in a couple of hours....it does mention that Paul spoke for hours so much so that one man fell asleep and fell to his death...... How do we explain this gospel mission situation that takes weeks, months and sometimes parts of years simply because the workers declare those who are listening "just don't get it yet". What is there to get besides the fact of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Who is it that often says that present day workers are not to be compared to Jesus or the Apostles?
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Post by emy on May 29, 2011 22:57:07 GMT -5
Nathan for a young man as yourself to understand the Trinity and the Deity of Christ and you say that salvation comes from Jesus Christ AND THE CHURCH WHICH WE FELLOWSHIP WITH! Whoa there! Think that over again, please! I can't speak for Nathan, but given his struggle with written English, I think you misunderstood his meaning. First we get salvation through Christ and then fellowship with THE church follows. Notice his punctuation making an effort to divide the thoughts:
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Post by imnx2 on May 29, 2011 22:57:55 GMT -5
How is it that we read of the gospel of Jesus Christ being preached in an hour, in a couple of hours....it does mention that Paul spoke for hours so much so that one man fell asleep and fell to his death...... How do we explain this gospel mission situation that takes weeks, months and sometimes parts of years simply because the workers declare those who are listening "just don't get it yet". What is there to get besides the fact of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Who is it that often says that present day workers are not to be compared to Jesus or the Apostles? Should everyone seek comparison to Jesus?
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Post by emy on May 29, 2011 23:10:37 GMT -5
Who is it that often says that present day workers are not to be compared to Jesus or the Apostles? Should everyone seek comparison to Jesus? I don't understand the question. My point was that it is often said that what we read about Jesus and the Apostles cannot be applied to present day workers. But yet, present day workers should be able to draw and teach converts just as quickly?
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Post by imnx2 on May 29, 2011 23:22:49 GMT -5
Should everyone seek comparison to Jesus? I don't understand the question. My point was that it is often said that what we read about Jesus and the Apostles cannot be applied to present day workers. But yet, present day workers should be able to draw and teach converts just as quickly? Oh. Ok. I don't know how much the workers can be compared to Jesus and the apostles. As far as acceptance time of Jesus as compared to acceptance time of the workers, I suppose there is a variety of time spans for each.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 29, 2011 23:30:58 GMT -5
~~ Amen, Al. when you wrote "Going out and simplifying a person's life as much as possible could be a wonderful thing, if done through love,"I asked Leo Stancliff, and different workers through the years all kinds of questions before and when I was in the work..... They did NOT feel threaten by my questions. They always answered in kindness because they knew I wanted to learn and gladly to share their thoughts with me.
Some of the workers who did NOT know the answers felt threaten by my questions.
It was through Jesus ministry and the apostles that people come to know God and Jesus.
Romans 10:17 So then Faith comes by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God. How beautiful are the feet of them that PREACH the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of things!
I admire and appreciate the workers who live by what they preach.... their lives match with their actions with the way they live before others ... Those are the true marks of the servants of God.
Nathan, how do you feel about the other things I wrote, in regard to a fear of the workers being instilled in people? Leo Stancliff, whom you mentioned, played a major role in Jayne's life, as he and Larry were the first workers she met, there "under the tree," on the University of Guam campus. I have no personal "issue" with Leo, but I do know that he very much upheld "the ministry," something which has become so problematic with some of us. You are correct in that Leo would answer questions regarding doctrine, at least in the way he had it all figured out, which I have no particular argument with (except for his take on evolution, which he attempted to "scientifically disprove"). But I had Leo confide to me more than once that certain people were just "troublemakers" (I'm not sure of his exact words), because they didn't just go along with what the workers asked. With all due respect to the man, he was very much a part of the system.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 23:56:18 GMT -5
You must be born again! That is the only way to gain true Knowledge of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. Being born again is ESSENTIAL. Who gets the credit for that birth? Who really makes it happen? People can have a part in it, but the only way it is at all possible is because of God. God is the only One with that kind of Power; the power to give new Life. So, to give all the credit to a worker/workers is not only off base, it's inaccurate. -bop Made me think of these scripture! Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. .. makes me think of the FACTS .. the facts of life/Life .. God gives life; both natural life and spiritual Life .. and God can take away life .. at times it may even seem like God can with-hold life .. as much as people might have an impact on us or play a part in these things, (a "life-saver"), it is ultimately God who gives life and/or saves a life --- that's always been my personal belief.
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Post by burdenofproof on May 30, 2011 0:10:40 GMT -5
You must be born again! That is the only way to gain true Knowledge of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. Being born again is ESSENTIAL. Who gets the credit for that birth? Who really makes it happen? People can have a part in it, but the only way it is at all possible is because of God. God is the only One with that kind of Power; the power to give new Life. So, to give all the credit to a worker/workers is not only off base, it's inaccurate. -bop Made me think of these scripture! Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Thanks for sharing that Scripture. The following is what comes to my mind: John 3
1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.
3 Jesus replied, Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
4 How can someone be born when they are old? Nicodemus asked. Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!
5 Jesus answered, Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again. 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.
9 How can this be? Nicodemus asked.
10 You are Israel's teacher, said Jesus, and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
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Post by quizzer on May 30, 2011 1:34:07 GMT -5
It's interesting, Nathan9, that you compare the 2x2s with having a solid rock foundation and other denominations having a sand foundation. I have found the exact opposite to be true.
When I began truly investigating Christian doctrine, the pastor would point me toward Bible verses. Me, being born and raised 2x2, would just ask why I was being asked to read the Bible. I was so used to the Bible being twisted around by the friends and workers, that I believed Christianity (in general) did the same thing. I was lucky - I had found a patient pastor. He insisted that I view doctrine as a series of topics in the Bible, and to investigate each topic. I studied several topics, using the study guides and concordances in my Bible.
The end result of my research was that I learned that the Bible had solid definitions for a variety of Biblical topics, phrases, and words. I learned what it meant to build to on this rock foundation.
I also learned that, until that experience, I had been playing with shifting sand. This sand was the twisting of scripture to suit a friend or a worker, leaving God out of the equation.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2011 8:46:43 GMT -5
Over and over again it is confirmed that this is the basis of the ministry message. Until it discovers the gospel of the living Christ within, it will continue to wither.
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Post by imnx2 on May 30, 2011 12:49:11 GMT -5
Over and over again it is confirmed that this is the basis of the ministry message. Until it discovers the gospel of the living Christ within, it will continue to wither. And in actuality the workers' ministry is the foundation of the F&W fellowship....with no cornerstone.
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Post by sharonw on May 30, 2011 13:00:36 GMT -5
~~ Matthew 10 is part of Jesus ministry! Pathetic for those who do not understand it. Workers make mistakes, have incorrect interpretation..... We must learn to go to God for understanding of His truth.
When you point a finger/blame at others four fingers are pointing back at you. It's human to blame others and NOT at ourselves. When I was a still a worker, I began to grow nervous about all the focus on "the ministry," yet when I very hesitantly broached the topic to another worker, I was told something to the effect that "It's the foundation of our belief." My feeling was that we should spend much less time talking about it and just "be." The talk about Matt. 10 very much lifts up the workers. I think a lot of it is done in much more subtle ways, though, as in the marginalization some of us have experienced. To show how fearful I was of criticizing a worker, it was actually very liberating to actually say some pretty strong things about a worker that was hurting us. And I found out the earth wasn't going to swallow me. It was liberating to begin to understand that the fellowship could be analyzed, just like any institution. This doesn't mean it was all bad, but just that it was created by human decisions, and it could be studied in that way. To me, all of this points to a fear that is produced by someone. Yes, we have all been involved, and we have given people authority in our lives. But it's hardly appropriate to blame people for this, when they know nothing else, and cannot see any other way to think and do things. This was even true for my wife, Jayne, who did not profess until she was in college. She was terribly afraid to discontinue going to meetings or to challenge the workers in any way. It's one thing to see this in those of us who were raised attending meetings, but then to see someone who only began later in life have the same fear tells me someone is feeding those fears. It's true that Jayne came from a religious background that used a lot of fear to control people, but then the workers could have done much to dissolve those fears. Religious/spiritual leaders we have learned from since that time haven't left us with the feeling that they're above reproach, and that we'll be punished if we criticize them. Actually, I have also been noting lately how I hear many "spiritual" things now that I have heard for years from the workers, and I won't accuse the workers of not practicing them, but it's more like they have codified and institutionalized so many of Jesus' teachings that they have become rigid rules. "The ministry" itself is one of those things. Going out and simplifying a person's life as much as possible could be a wonderful thing, if done through love, but when it becomes a practice to prove others wrong, it has lost its effectiveness - its life. This has happened in many ways with the workers' teachings. And we've all been a part of it . . . Thanks, Al...I've been convicted that the friends are responsible for what the workers have become...even some of the beginning workers changed into somewhat we see in amongst the workers today. I don't think young workers go well prepared for what the work really boils down to and that is the workers do have to live up to an almost impossible ideal just because that's how the friends see them or want them to be. That alone would be a burden that I wouldn't want to bear. The other thing that the friends have done to the workers is worshipping them, idolizing them, battling with one another for the workers' attention....it has made the workers receive their rewards befoer Judgment Day and it also has caused some workers to get enlarged in and of himself/herself. I see that IF the workers would have a salary, a home, a regional flock, and a family if he/she wants much like the Apostles had their home in Jerusalem though travelled far and wide....then the workers can go different places and preach the gospel and IF they still want them to go 2X2 let them go 2X2, for certainly 2-3 witnesses will bear up the message!
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Post by sharonw on May 30, 2011 13:11:37 GMT -5
Over and over again it is confirmed that this is the basis of the ministry message. Until it discovers the gospel of the living Christ within, it will continue to wither. And in actuality the workers' ministry is the foundation of the F&W fellowship....with no cornerstone. Actually there was no intentional fellowship, it came as a product of a successful experience run by WI! All they seemed to want to do at first was go out and preach 2x2 and see how that made the difference in getting converts and they did like the Faith Mission did at first and sent their converts to whichever church in the area was for them......then when they say the great number of converts, they made a conscious decision to form the feloowship or the lower tier of people.
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