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Post by jhjmr on Apr 25, 2009 16:18:06 GMT -5
To some people it is easier to stick your head in the sand than to face reality. But, God sees you even when your head is in the sand. So, anyone professing to do God's way, must not look the other way, but confront the problem and work it out and correct the wrong and make all things right. Excuses just don't cut it. Position just don't work. Control is a system and that is not God's way. Liars shall never enter the kingdom of God. Cover-ups are for cowards and deceit is a sin. Now, how can this be ignored anymore and have innocent people wronged and anyone expect that it will not be a blow-up eventually. How can someone preach how to be saved, when they are wrong themselves. Consequences aren't pretty sometimes, but the consequences will just get worse if action isn't implicated.
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Post by midwesterner on Apr 25, 2009 19:51:15 GMT -5
Unless I missed it, what is the Wings website?
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Post by degem on Apr 25, 2009 20:02:40 GMT -5
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Post by Sharon on Apr 25, 2009 20:41:10 GMT -5
To some people it is easier to stick your head in the sand than to face reality. But, God sees you even when your head is in the sand. So, anyone professing to do God's way, must not look the other way, but confront the problem and work it out and correct the wrong and make all things right. Excuses just don't cut it. Position just don't work. Control is a system and that is not God's way. Liars shall never enter the kingdom of God. Cover-ups are for cowards and deceit is a sin. Now, how can this be ignored anymore and have innocent people wronged and anyone expect that it will not be a blow-up eventually. How can someone preach how to be saved, when they are wrong themselves. Consequences aren't pretty sometimes, but the consequences will just get worse if action isn't implicated. I don't think that there will be any "widespread" efforts by any w&f's across the world muchless the USA, give any collaborated efforts to bring about the "needed" changes within the MI debacle....and this is why I say that...I've appealed to some in positions of power that re more or less "removed" from the state, but their answer has been more or less, that it isn't their business. Otherwords, it still comes down to each power position has its' little territory and not one of them wants to embarge on another's territory simply because they don't want it done to them. so it comes to the cost of what? We all already know the cost for some...it's been quite extraordinarily costly! I've even told one that the sheep were being scattered in defense against the old hat being repeated that there were those not willing....that chapped me pretty bad....but I suspect I may well pay for that opinion myself, but at least I didn't let it go...I let the one know that said such an unwise statement that I knew for a fact, that those being beaten down were just as faithful to their Lord and Saviour as any of the rest of us and would put some of us to open shame. No reply on that, I can tell you that much! The only comfort I have is this: God knows what is going on and I have asked myself just how much this is all to bring down something that God has seen to have gone so far wrong.....we'll know in the bye and bye!
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Post by pianoman on Apr 26, 2009 0:01:32 GMT -5
The statement that I hear most about the 2x2 way is as follows " The way is perfect, but the people aren't".
That is a bold statement in that when that statement is given, it is referring to the way of those in power.
I simply disagree with that.
I think that the way God intended, is His way, and any other way or slant on His way, is wrong.
If that shoe fits, one must wear it.
If one chooses not to wear it, one must do what they feel is best for them.
I got some pretty smug comments when I stated that I simply outgrew meetings. This kind of treatment was the precise reason that I stated that and it is just the truth.
I know that if I were in the position that those that are falsely accused here, I would expect the law to operate on a level playing field. Prison for the guilty. If they take the things before the law and choose to let the law handle it, if they are backing someone that has lied, they must suffer the consequences that they chose to put before others.
1Cr 6:1 "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
The bible states clearly, that these that have exposed this to the legal system, must also stand on their merit, and be dealt with by that same system.
This is one of those verses that work great when you want to use it, but not so great when it is used on you.
I believe that Sharon is right, and there will be no changes, as those in power, like it there.
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Post by ronhall on Apr 26, 2009 10:11:24 GMT -5
The statement that I hear most about the 2x2 way is as follows " The way is perfect, but the people aren't". That is a bold statement in that when that statement is given, it is referring to the way of those in power. I simply disagree with that. I think that the way God intended, is His way, and any other way or slant on His way, is wrong. If that shoe fits, one must wear it. If one chooses not to wear it, one must do what they feel is best for them. I got some pretty smug comments when I stated that I simply outgrew meetings. This kind of treatment was the precise reason that I stated that and it is just the truth.I know that if I were in the position that those that are falsely accused here, I would expect the law to operate on a level playing field. Prison for the guilty. If they take the things before the law and choose to let the law handle it, if they are backing someone that has lied, they must suffer the consequences that they chose to put before others. 1Cr 6:1 "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? The bible states clearly, that these that have exposed this to the legal system, must also stand on their merit, and be dealt with by that same system. This is one of those verses that work great when you want to use it, but not so great when it is used on you. I believe that Sharon is right, and there will be no changes, as those in power, like it there. I've heard this expressed by various friends and relatives who have left the fellowship. I've chosen not to comment, at the time, but it seems to explain everything.
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Post by pianoman on Apr 26, 2009 22:24:34 GMT -5
I really feel that this will show many what really goes down in the 2x2 way, and will make a case for either view.
I feel that if those in Michigan, get off the hook, this will cause a great division.
I feel that if those in Michigan, get real and make the necessary changes, and make other changes to prevent this from happening again, it will strengthen what they have.
I will have to say, " I will believe it when I see it".
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Post by Brother Schrock on Apr 27, 2009 9:42:08 GMT -5
Remember Kenneth Diesmore now diseased how many came up against him gave him a hard time about 16-18yrs ago? Weldon Burgess was also vehemently picked on because of accusations that were brought against Kenneth, and that Weldon refused to dismiss Kenneth because he (Weldon) was able to see through it, that it was all fabricated lies. This was started by his (KENNETHS) companion who was younger and still alive and there for cannot give his name out. Now this same group in the thumb area is the same group including elders along with others are involved in this fiasco. White Knight, How much of what you say above re: Kenneth, Weldon and Kenneth's companion comes from your first-hand account or experience? Thanks, Brother Schrock
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Post by degem on Apr 27, 2009 9:47:19 GMT -5
I don't remember K.D. being giving a hard time about anything.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 27, 2009 17:27:34 GMT -5
Remember Kenneth Diesmore now diseased how many came up against him gave him a hard time about 16-18yrs ago? Weldon Burgess was also vehemently picked on because of accusations that were brought against Kenneth, and that Weldon refused to dismiss Kenneth because he (Weldon) was able to see through it, that it was all fabricated lies. This was started by his (KENNETHS) companion who was younger and still alive and there for cannot give his name out. Now this same group in the thumb area is the same group including elders along with others are involved in this fiasco. White Knight, How much of what you say above re: Kenneth, Weldon and Kenneth's companion comes from your first-hand account or experience? Thanks, Brother Schrock How much do you remember.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 27, 2009 17:28:45 GMT -5
PS; Ask Ray Stevens
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 27, 2009 18:22:42 GMT -5
Anyone that doesn't know what to say or what to do, how about checking out the facts. The family has a huge file of legal court papers that they would I'm sure share with anyone that would like to just know how this went and why things were done and said. It would not be guess work, but actually proof of everything. Then, if anyone wants to fix matters, they would have every fact and how it went wrong and maybe they would be able to find out WHY it went so wrong. Legal papers put the excuses of lying or I don't know or I didn't do that to rest. Could you imagine this happening when Jesus was out preaching and he would say, I don't know what to do or what can I do. He would have matters corrected and things would be set straight because he had his heavenly father in his life, So, if anything is done, it is because someone feels they need to have their heavenly father helping them, or a non caring spirit that would just sweep it under the rug until a wind storm blows the rug and the dirt just blows all over, Sincereness and Godly influence shall be shown for all the observe. No excuses, only a spirit of peace and love and a terrible situation put to rest. We are all watching and waiting!!
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Post by jphillips on Apr 27, 2009 19:13:01 GMT -5
Anyone that doesn't know what to say or what to do, how about checking out the facts. The family has a huge file of legal court papers that they would I'm sure share with anyone that would like to just know how this went and why things were done and said. It would not be guess work, but actually proof of everything. Then, if anyone wants to fix matters, they would have every fact and how it went wrong and maybe they would be able to find out WHY it went so wrong. Legal papers put the excuses of lying or I don't know or I didn't do that to rest. Could you imagine this happening when Jesus was out preaching and he would say, I don't know what to do or what can I do. He would have matters corrected and things would be set straight because he had his heavenly father in his life, So, if anything is done, it is because someone feels they need to have their heavenly father helping them, or a non caring spirit that would just sweep it under the rug until a wind storm blows the rug and the dirt just blows all over, Sincereness and Godly influence shall be shown for all the observe. No excuses, only a spirit of peace and love and a terrible situation put to rest. We are all watching and waiting!! HOT DOG, jhjmr, get 'um and post them on TMB. They are public documents that can be accessed at the case's courthouse.
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 27, 2009 20:33:30 GMT -5
The public documents that are at the court house tell exactly each court hearing and date and just what happened at that hearing. The final outcome of the case is also in the file. Those are public papers that anyone can get. Each defendent has their own file under their name. But, papers that were turned in to the police are papers that are not in a public file as yet. Every single paper must be shared with the attorneys on each side for evidence. Those are papers that if anyone wanted to really put an end to this fisaco could surely see how things were done and who done them. Everytime something is turmed in, you sign the papers when you turn them in. The date is on the paper then from the authorities. Everything must be documented. And believe me, it is. It was suggested that the overseer look at some of these papers, but his reply was, I don't have time. He only had time to go to every hearing with no trouble. He is trying to play, who me, but he has egg on his face and that can't be hid. HOT DOG will be when someone with some honesty starts checking on this mess!! Any paper that I would be allowed to post, I'll post with extreme rapidness. Nothing to hide and lots to gain!! Let's hope the immediate family will let us post some of this stuff if nothing is done. Anyone that is timid to get involved will wish they had if some of these papers are shown!! Now that's a thought for anyone timid and don't know what they can do!!!!
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Post by Brother Schrock on Apr 27, 2009 21:46:06 GMT -5
White Knight, How much of what you say above re: Kenneth, Weldon and Kenneth's companion comes from your first-hand account or experience? Thanks, Brother Schrock How much do you remember. White Knight, In no way could this be construed as an answer to my question. Care to try again? Thanks, Brother Schrock
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Post by Sharon on Apr 28, 2009 0:03:28 GMT -5
The public documents that are at the court house tell exactly each court hearing and date and just what happened at that hearing. The final outcome of the case is also in the file. Those are public papers that anyone can get. Each defendent has their own file under their name. But, papers that were turned in to the police are papers that are not in a public file as yet. Every single paper must be shared with the attorneys on each side for evidence. Those are papers that if anyone wanted to really put an end to this fisaco could surely see how things were done and who done them. Everytime something is turmed in, you sign the papers when you turn them in. The date is on the paper then from the authorities. Everything must be documented. And believe me, it is. It was suggested that the overseer look at some of these papers, but his reply was, I don't have time. He only had time to go to every hearing with no trouble. He is trying to play, who me, but he has egg on his face and that can't be hid. HOT DOG will be when someone with some honesty starts checking on this mess!! Any paper that I would be allowed to post, I'll post with extreme rapidness. Nothing to hide and lots to gain!! Let's hope the immediate family will let us post some of this stuff if nothing is done. Anyone that is timid to get involved will wish they had if some of these papers are shown!! Now that's a thought for anyone timid and don't know what they can do!!!! Jhjmr...I'm not really understanding the "why" the overseer thought it was ever necessary he be at any of the proceedings? It's certainly a strange situation when one looks at it from the f&w's viewpoint. I mean false allegations are not unheard of....but for a whole section of a church's leadership and even congregation to get so involved from the first, is something I fail to see as necessary, regardless! To me, if any workers were to be involved, it should have been the ones who the false allegators told their story to and yet, that even wasn't necessary, IMO
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 28, 2009 6:54:19 GMT -5
Brother Schrock Junior Member member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 82 Re: Michigan follow-up « Reply #210 Yesterday at 9:46pm » ________________________________________
Yesterday at 5:27pm, White Knight wrote:
Yesterday at 9:42am, Brother Schrock wrote:
White Knight,
How much of what you say above re: Kenneth, Weldon and Kenneth's companion comes from your first-hand account or experience?
Thanks,
Brother Schrock
How much do you remember.
White Knight,
In no way could this be construed as an answer to my question. Care to try again?
Thanks,
Brother Schrock Report Post - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
________________________________________ "In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity,"
Thank You for this opportunity, if you are a worker I can understand your questioning and almost guess your next response, If you are a/were a Ray Stevens supporter I definitely know your next response. If you truly know about this case then you’ll have no doubt as to what I’m talking about, as we can expect rebuttal /silencing and or intimidation tactics. Why don’t you put your real name on the board so we can see who you are? Most people of concern here already know who I am, because of the Mi case my name has not been place on here save my first name from time to time, and others have placed my initials. I have traveled the States for over twenty seven years and though I have /was not in the area in the fullness of this situation I was in part and this was not very silent and ray definitely not very silent . In trying to become the head worker there, his base was in the thumb area. If you want more info I certainly want be shy to furnish it!! Ray is no longer in the work!
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Post by Brother Schrock on Apr 28, 2009 10:18:17 GMT -5
WK,
Who I support is not the issue. What I was surprised by was how you indicated with utter certainty that any comments made regarding KD were fabricated lies. Were you really that close to the situation? Not as I recall, but then I can’t be certain either, which is why I asked. My point in all of this is that we need to be careful about what we declare as absolutes, especially if we are at arms length to the situation. We all need to be aware of leveling criticism towards others for the very things we are guilty of. I know that’s something I struggle with.
Regards,
BS
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 28, 2009 10:28:31 GMT -5
The overseer came to each hearing with two other men workers plus the two woman workers also. It was told that the friends that came were told too. They were the elders and wives from at least three churches plus others that just wanted to be there. After each hearing the gossip spread like a wild fire. The gossip was wrong much of the time but that didn't make any difference. The court personel plus lawyers were completely perplexed by this as this is the church that the family attended also. It was said many times, how strange because the churches they know would always be there for help and support not against destroying a family. Not one single member that attended these hearings have ever tried to help the family or support them. They just listened to the lies being told, spread them around, judged by them and condemned by them. Even now it is the same, but what would you expect.
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 28, 2009 13:38:48 GMT -5
In regards to RS and KD and WB. RS was definitely trying to turn many against KD and WB. That is a well known fact, not fiction, and there was a lot of discord among the thumb area because of it. And yes, it did involve the same group that the Mi. problem has to deal with now. RS wanted to even have a private phone line put in a home for him to counsel people in their troubles. He was involved in a lot of different lives and thought he was a certified therapist. It caused problems after he was dismissed. Some remained against others for a long time. Even young folk was affected in a serious matter from it. This is a known fact, no fabrication or lies. Try to prove otherwise if you think this isn't true. It isn't leveling criticism towards others, it just stating an incident that took place in Michigan that was a bad situation!
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Post by bandtroll on Apr 28, 2009 17:25:21 GMT -5
RS was definitely trying to turn many against KD and WB. That is a well known fact, not fiction Has RS stated this was a fact? Or is it ASS U MEd because of that persons actions? Even when people say they are trying to do something it doesn't always mean that people are telling the truth. (If you must) why not tell us what was being done that may/may not have caused some to turn against others and let us decide the intent instead of stating it as "fact?"
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 28, 2009 19:04:33 GMT -5
RS was definitely trying to turn many against KD and WB. That is a well known fact, not fiction Has RS stated this was a fact? Or is it ASS U MEd because of that persons actions? Even when people say they are trying to do something it doesn't always mean that people are telling the truth. (If you must) why not tell us what was being done that may/may not have caused some to turn against others and let us decide the intent instead of stating it as "fact?" Is it that you can't or that you refuse to accept the truth of the truth, if you and or your friend Brother Schrock are closer to the fact please do tell us the forum is yours, so please do expound? We knew what you were up to right away when you posted. Or let us ask either of you the same question Brother Schrock asked me. How much do you know about: Kenneth, Weldon and Kenneth's companion comes from your first-hand account or experience?
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 28, 2009 19:05:22 GMT -5
When we left the first con’t in MI 2008, we arrived at the second one Wed, late afternoon there were many areas not ready not even cleaned. The veggie being one such place, we cleaned the area up and made it presentable, As convention went on help became very scares so another and myself went around asking others to come and help, we found a couple plus one young lady in her late teens she rendered her services until a group of other teens came around and started to taunt us. They looking directly at me and saying “look at him he’s not ashamed, he’s not one bit remorseful ect, ect” they kept it up for about 15 or so minutes, they were even hounding the young lady as she was working beside me till she finally left. There were about 8-10 of us peeling potatoes at the time. I wonder who put them up to that…
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Post by lin on Apr 28, 2009 20:05:33 GMT -5
I think most friends and workers don't know about the network of outright stalkers the fellowship has. And I think if they did and had the Michigan case would have turned out a bit different.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 28, 2009 20:09:34 GMT -5
Brother Schrock Junior Member member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 83 Re: Michigan « Result #22 on Mar 31, 2008, 9:36am » ________________________________________ Website has been updated.
Here is the extent of the story:
Two Russian females allege abuse by SUSAN YOUNGER staff reporter BROWN CITY—Two Russian born females, both 19, are alleging they are victims of criminal sexual abuse involving their adoptive parents. “This is a complex case and it will take time to wade through the volume of reports and records,” said Lapeer County Prosecuting Attorney Byron Konschuh. “It involves multiple potential suspects.” The police investigation began when the two females recently contended they were victims of criminal sexual conduct which they alleged involved prostitution. The females were 4 and 5-years-old when they were adopted by the Brown City couple, who eventually adopted four more children from Russia. The older siblings claim the abuse occurred for 14 years—from 1994 to present. Police aren’t commenting on the specifics of their allegations. “This is an ongoing investigation, and it wouldn’t be proper for me to comment right now,” said Michigan State Police Lt. Patrick McGreevy, who commands both the Lapeer and Sandusky posts. “No warrants have been issued.” Though the accusations are serious, there is no urgency to rush through the investigation, said Konschuh. “The two no longer live in the home,” said Konschuh. “We will take our time.” The four other adopted children, all school age, are in the foster care system. That placement is not related to the allegations of the older two, said Konschuh. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
________________________________________ "In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity,"
I believe this is the extent of your accuracies. If the twins were four and five how could they be twins? Also they were more like five and a half to six yrs of age before coming over here, along with numerous other errors. Is this what you call accurate facts? That you’d, like to go around and repeat, having everyone to believe. No thanks..
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Post by sharon on Apr 28, 2009 20:23:54 GMT -5
I think most friends and workers don't know about the network of outright stalkers the fellowship has. And I think if they did and had the Michigan case would have turned out a bit different. Sadly enough, Lin, this is probably very true....but that's because people within the truth's fellowship think it as the only True Church so thus it possibly couldn't have anyone within it that wasn't honest, was evil or negative in behavior towards others. I think it is time that we all just admit that the truth's fellowship is no different then any other group of religious' sects....there are good people in there and there will always be rotten eggs and as the numbers of the group have increased, so are the chances for the evil person to be found within the group...and also for the chance that said such evil person will be found out. The disgusting part is the lack of discretion and discernment on the parts of those who should have a higher degree of such abilities.........but often when these things are completely discovered, then it is the love of money that has brought about the evil. Why mankind does that, is only because they are mankind, I suppose.
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Post by lin on Apr 28, 2009 20:42:54 GMT -5
I don't think so. I don't see what that has to do with causing of innocent people to suffer. This influence in the Mich. case did not all come from within. It's like the tares an enemy has sowed it. Read posts here with the thinly veiled hope a convention ("police investigation at Carsonville!") will get busted and our kids taken away like in TX? Is that from within?
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Post by eyedeetentee on Apr 28, 2009 20:58:27 GMT -5
Incest causes extensive problems including ridiculing of others, demeaning remarks, superiority issues, etc.
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