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Post by Sharon on Apr 22, 2009 13:45:56 GMT -5
Lin, two imcompetent girls made a bunch of accusations, That is the false information that the church is going on. But, if you haven't heard, the overseer said, those girls don't lie and everyone was led to believe everything. From abuse to rape to murder! Yes, all three things were accused. Is the whole church imcompetent? Perhaps they could find room at the forensic center for a whole lot of people to say the least. You'd have to be incompetent to swallow the garbage that was claimed to have happened. There are absolutely no excuse, misunderstanding or convincing to believe these allegations. You could make a real sick science fiction movie if anyone was that hard up to watch it!! And Nathan, I agree, a thorough investigation! Do you know anyone interested in doing that? Perhaps you could let others know that this is something of a importance. If not in friendly manner, perhaps hit the pocket book manner!! Since the friends(that is the majority) have NO way of knowing just where any donations or gifts of money end up among the workers, it would nearly take at least a nationwide boycott by the friends of not giving "any" money at all to any of the workers to be "sure" that it wasn't funneled to those who are of the guilty parties in MI.......I think most of the friends would draw back on that because in reality as Scott Ross has mentioned on TMB before that most of the workers out there in the different fields see very little money support.....about the only time they may get such support is for medical needs and travelling needs. Even the "retired" workers are generally put on the Medicaid or Welfare programs in the state in which they end up in....and their money support is minimal, through individual gifts. I don't see any way that would be fair to boycott the guilty in MI without hurting more innocent people! Money is what talks and is what has power and it's proven that that is so within the truth's fellowship....the bible has said the "love of money is the root of all evil." I say it is in this case as it is in some other lesser traumatic situations within the truth's fellowship as well as out of it. JMO
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Post by jphillips on Apr 22, 2009 14:31:47 GMT -5
Lin, two imcompetent girls made a bunch of accusations, That is the false information that the church is going on. But, if you haven't heard, the overseer said, those girls don't lie and everyone was led to believe everything. From abuse to rape to murder! Yes, all three things were accused. Is the whole church imcompetent? Perhaps they could find room at the forensic center for a whole lot of people to say the least. You'd have to be incompetent to swallow the garbage that was claimed to have happened. There are absolutely no excuse, misunderstanding or convincing to believe these allegations. You could make a real sick science fiction movie if anyone was that hard up to watch it!! And Nathan, I agree, a thorough investigation! Do you know anyone interested in doing that? Perhaps you could let others know that this is something of a importance. If not in friendly manner, perhaps hit the pocket book manner!! It has come to light that the twins were lying. The two sister Workers brought the twins to the police once the allegations became known, which is their legal and moral responsibility, but "Why were they 'booted' from the Work then?" From your above post you state, "the overseer said, those girls don't lie and everyone was led to believe everything." So "WHY?" did the sister Workers get the boot for believing the same as the MI overseer and only seeking that the legal system sort out the FACTS? What 'IF,' becoming the devil's advocate. The two ex-sister Workers, who no longer belong to the faith, with no allegiance to the TRUTH, become plaintive witnesses against any 'who, what, when, or where?' issues leveled against the faith and the MI Overseer? They've got to be privy to some interesting information about the case's quagmire or other details about the denomination that once brought to light on the stand would make the whole situation even more shifty?
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 22, 2009 15:26:35 GMT -5
It is not known to my knowledge whether the two ex workers got the boot or took the quick road out on their own. What has been said is that they have their own little fellowship just the two. If they communicate with the overseer, one of them would have to say. Yes, the devil's advocate would be most interesting. They were very much in one of the twins life up to the last court hearing. It was ordered that they were to have no communication with the twin, but if that is enforced no one knows. Only the bondman would know and the twin, but they were living very close to each other. I would think that the Mi. overseer and his side-kick are not to happy about things. That is probably why we have attorney's watching the postings here. Would be pretty bad if the only way you could get information is from the TMB. One ex worker would have privy information on a lot of things that would make a lot of grief and explanations. They are also down as witnesses for the prosecution. If anyone goes to trial. Situation getting shifty enough yet?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 22, 2009 21:54:28 GMT -5
Nathan, Your post condones investigating before reporting suspected abuse. The laws for each state are pretty specific. Here is the Michigan reporting information: State Statutes Results Michigan
Child Abuse and Neglect Mandatory Reporters of Child Abuse and Neglect
Mandatory reporters include:
* Physicians, physician assistants, dentists, dental hygienists, medical examiners, nurses, persons licensed to provide emergency medical care, or audiologists * School administrators, counselors, or teachers * Regulated child care providers * Psychologists, marriage and family therapists, licensed professional counselors, social workers, or social work technicians * Law enforcement officers * Members of the clergy * Department employees, including eligibility specialists, family independence managers, family independence specialists, social services specialists, social work specialists, social work specialist managers, or welfare services specialists
Reporting by Other Persons Citation: Comp. Laws § 722.624
Any other person, including a child, who has reasonable cause to suspect child abuse or neglect, may report.
Standards for Making a Report Citation: Comp. Laws § 722.623
A report is required when a reporter has reasonable cause to suspect child abuse or neglect.
Privileged Communications Citation: Comp. Laws § 722.631
Only the attorney-client or clergy-penitent privilege can be grounds for not reporting.
Inclusion of Reporter's Name in Report Not addressed in statutes reviewed.
Disclosure of Reporter Identity Citation: Comp. Laws §§ 722,625; 722.627
The identity of a reporting person is confidential subject to disclosure only with the consent of that person or by judicial process.
The identity of the reporter is protected in any release of information to the subject of the report.You are correct in saying: Let the authority sorts it out.Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 22:15:45 GMT -5
Scott, could you elaborate on your understanding of "reasonable cause to suspect" leading to reporting?
Understanding this better could be valuable for all readers, but I'm struggling with that issue right now on a non-2x2 related case. Obviously an allegation from a possible victim is clear cut. What about less "cause to suspect" than that?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 22, 2009 22:47:22 GMT -5
Scott, could you elaborate on your understanding of "reasonable cause to suspect" leading to reporting?
Understanding this better could be valuable for all readers, but I'm struggling with that issue right now on a non-2x2 related case. Obviously an allegation from a possible victim is clear cut. What about less "cause to suspect" than that?From a teacher web site: www.cfchildren.org/issues/abuse/whatnow/When Should You Make a Report?
Concerns about child abuse can be reported when there is reasonable cause to believe that it has occurred. “Reasonable cause to believe” is the standard whereby any reasonable person, exposed to the same circumstances, would arrive at a similar conclusion. To determine whether there is “reasonable cause to believe,” one must understand the extent of the problem, learn the indicators that may present themselves in the classroom, and evaluate concerns objectively.Another source: www.laboratoryconsultationservices.com/lcs1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&catid=901&Itemid=1&limitstart=4 Reasonable Cause To Suspect Reasonable Cause
A person can have "reasonable cause" to suspect that a child is abused or maltreated if, considering what physical evidence s/he observes or is told about, and from his/her own training and experience, it is possible that the injury or condition was caused by neglect or by non-accidental means. The reporter need not be absolutely certain that the injury or condition was caused by neglect or by non-accidental means; the reporter should only be able to entertain the possibility that it could have been neglect or non-accidental in order to possess the necessary "reasonable cause."
Suspicion
Certainty is not required
To be suspicious, it is enough for the mandated reporter to distrust or doubt what he or she personally observes or is told. In child abuse cases, many factors can and should be considered in the formation of that doubt or distrust. Physical and behavioral indicators may also be helpful in forming a reasonable basis of suspicion. Although these indicators are not diagnostic criteria of child abuse, neglect, or maltreatment, they illustrate important patterns that may be recorded in the written report when relevant.One thing I tend to point out to people that report issues to WINGS is that reporting child abuse (or elder abuse) does NOT mean that you are making a judgment against someone. You are simply reporting what you have observed or what you suspect. In many cases you can remain anonymous if you wish to. Once you make a report, it is up to the authorities to determine whether allegations are true or not. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 23, 2009 0:23:19 GMT -5
Nathan, I will respond to your questions, but hardly feel that I am an authority on the issues you are asking about. These will just be my opinions and thoughts of course. Scott, what the law is doing to those who brought false abused charges? Who are going to pay the lawyer fees for the not guilty? How are you going to wipe the ruined reputation and characters of those who had been falsely and dragged through the mud?
I think that has been answered on the board Nathan. They were arrested and taken to court. They were then placed in the Forensic Center for treatment and observation and then went to court again. One has plead guilty to making false statements and fined and had certain restrictions placed on her I believe. She is back with the adoptive family. The other entered a plea of no contest (I think it was that) and was released to the care of another couple with certain restrictions placed on her. To my knowledge as far as the authorities are concerned those were the only two charged with making false statements. I am not sure what you mean by: How are you going to wipe the ruined reputation and characters of those who had been falsely and dragged through the mud?I do not think that I have the ability to do any of that. If there is something I know for a fact that may help someone, I will state such if I feel it will help. It should be noted that throughout this whole situation I have tried to limit what I have posted to verifiable information whether from the press (not meaning that the press was correct) or other public sources such as courtroom proceedings, and that was after hearing from people on both sides of the issue who provided me with the same information. Even so, I am sure that I too have made mistakes. What if that happen to you or your love ones, Scott? is there something the law can stop this from happening to you, me and others?It isn't what the authorities did that is the issue it seems to me Nathan. It appears that the issue is that people 'took sides' without regard to whether there was any evidence against certain individuals. The law can't regulate anyone from running around and spreading rumors about others. There are laws against libel and slander of course, and that may be an issue to be resolved by the courts. What can the law do to protect the innocent from dragging into court and through the mud? How can we prevent MI situation from ever happens again?In situations such as this the authorities are required to investigate and make a determination as to whether there is evidence that could result in a need to press charges. People need to let the law conduct the investigation and not form judgments until the proceedings are done. If there is no evidence of guilt or wrongdoing then everyone should accept that and move on with their lives. I do understand that this has been very difficult for many of those who were named. Should the law let the false accuser/s get away freely? with the bloody trails, dead bodies so to speak behind them?Again Nathan, the accusers (I am speaking of those who brought the accusations to the authorities) did NOT get away 'freely'. I think that you are confusing actual legal accusations (those allegations which were reported to the authorities) with those who spread rumors among the truth fellowship. In regard to those individuals who spread rumors, I believe that there has been indications given that there may be legal proceedings brought forward by those who feel that they were slandered or libeled by those individuals. There have been a lot of people affected by this mess for sure. Relatives have become alienated from one another, meetings have been split apart and there are a lot of hard feelings from both sides of the issue. The ramifications have spread beyond the state of Michigan, although as some have pointed out there are many who unaware of what has happened (or say they are unaware) who should have heard about it. It does none of us any good to try to take sides now and point fingers at those we may feel were wrong. I have heard from quite a few people on both sides of this issue, and my feeling is one of sadness. I haven't commented a whole lot on this because I don't feel that it is real productive to do so. There have been a lot of mistakes made, and I can't see where it is going to do much good for those of us not directly involved to try to take sides and start pointing fingers. I believe that this situation has quite a ways to go before it is ever resolved, and I doubt that it will ever be resolved to everybody's liking. Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 7:59:21 GMT -5
Thanks Scott, that helps a little.
When there is physical evidence or victim testimony, reporting is simple. However, it seems to me that there is a big gray zone between "suspicion" and "reasonable cause to believe". Obviously, at some point, a preponderance of inconclusive facts may all add up to reasonable cause to believe and then report. It becomes a judgment call, and a difficult one as the observer wishes to be fair and consider both the potential damage to either the possible victim or alleged abuser should the judgment be wrong.
I'm thinking that the best advice for a potential reporter who has suspicions but no hard evidence would be to contact the authorities and seek advice from the people who would be making the decision on whether or not to investigate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 8:06:25 GMT -5
With 20-20 hindsight, perhaps damage in the MI case would have be minimized had reporting been made immediately upon the first accusation. This may have meant either immediate reporting by the sister workers, or if the sister workers called their overseer for advice first, he should have insisted immediate reporting. Then let the system take its course.
We know for sure that it is not the duty of the witness(es) to do any further investigation or take personal actions once there is reasonable cause to believe, in fact I understand professionals advise directly against it in case it taints the evidence.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 23, 2009 9:39:30 GMT -5
It would appear that there was more reporting going on than what is required under "mandatory reporting" or any sense of moral obligation. Somehow the authorities received information on just about every case that had ever involved anyone in the fellowship. I think we can all be relieved that no innocent person has gone to jail as a result of these events. In the 1990s cases of this nature sometimes turned into witchhunts, but with greater awareness of such cases, authorities seem to be less prone to making erroneous linkages between isolated unrelated cases. As to why the girls made up the stories, this is not uncommon ... unfortunately. I keep reading along the lines that in many cases abuse has occurred, but there is not enough information to prosecute. That does happen, but people should realize that false accusations are extremely common. In the peculiar dynamics of family relationships, accusations of sexual abuse can be one of the weapons. I haven't yet read the following book, but it looks quite interesting. You can search amazon on "no crueler tyrannies".
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Post by pianoman on Apr 23, 2009 12:28:01 GMT -5
As long as the 2x2s have the little, "Who can be the humblest" contest (so it appears) with the far left extreme clothing and hair, they are going to be looked at as weird and strange.
To some this is good news. My mother had a persecution complex, thus fitting into the mold very nicely.
I am not going to get into a modesty argument, but modesty does not have to stand out like a sore thumb.
In the Michigan Case, the "inside" whisperings and comings and goings, they are the problem here. No one that has been there can tell me that they have never heard something behind a shushed finger to the lips. If they tell me that, they are deaf and dumb and blind.
Dealings within the F&Ws need to be less secretive, and more on a level to where the people know what is going on.
The "way" is supported by the people's money, and they wouldn't invest in the stock market with as poor a reporting or "result" level as they have with the workers.
Leave God out of it, because you are dealing with man, and man will mess up anything that involves human nature and money.
Once officially accused, that will never leave the records of the accused. The information may not be available to the public, but this government will have records "just in case".
The damage has been done, and everyone needs to try to find a solution.
Scott is absolutely right that this will never be resolved to everyone's liking.
That really is a shame, but a lot of innocent folks got a huge black eye here.
Everyone connected to the fellowship...................................................Pianoman
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 23, 2009 12:51:45 GMT -5
If the two workers left the truth on their own because they felt they had caused enough damage, that would have been a relief. They left the work and meeting, but not the twins. Also, since when is the workers suppose to do the investigation? These two woman workers had never been in the area of the family, had no contact with them to know them but took it upon themselves a make a judgment call against this family and ohers. After the first report was turned in, it was questioned by the authorities and was proven to be lies. Did it stop there then, no, that is when it started to implicate other people, not the family. That report didn't get any action, so deperation set in and a lot of people were accused. Then more people, and more people. And all reports were not just written by the twins!! That is in black and white!! Now, why would the workers want to do any of this? It is knowledge that one worker was doing questioning on people before they ever got the opportunity to really sink their teeth into something that they must have felt would be a good resource to destroy people. The other investigations that had been done didn't have anything to do with the family that we speak of. It was dirt digging on others. And if a worker is digging for dirt, no one could ever believe that the overseer didn't know. Dirt that was dug up though involved the overseers knowledge so, it was not good for him because, the minister didn't report anything. So, yes ministers should report knowledge of abuse and etc. but on everyone they feel guilty or know they are guilty. When people are named in scandals most usually they know the person or have close contact with. How about when you come up with names that would not be guilty or are hardly known or even never known? How can two girls even dream up these names? Now, that is the $64,000 question! How ridiculous when one finally say I'm sorry, yes, I lied to the court that the fiasco just keeps going. So, if the overseer was led wrong, isn't it his job to make it right? Mistakes can be forgiven, denial of mistakes never. And it might not be a happy occasion to be proven what a fool one can be, but at least step up to the plate and say I was surely fooled. I'm sorry. Wishful thinking is never going to make a lie the truth. The accusations are destroying, disgusting and ignorant. The air needs to be cleared. The dirt needs to be put back into the hole. Not try to make a mountain out of it. If it is shown that someone is not of good judgment, step aside and save their face. Not just keep making a bigger fool out of themselves and many other followers. It isn't even just ignorant to try and destroy people it is evil! There is no way anyone can claim they have God in their life, and be out to destroy anyone.
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 23, 2009 13:27:18 GMT -5
Scott, a reporter can definitely keep their identity confidenial. But, the reported that did the report that was aired and printed didn't keep her identity out of the report. So, what report are you talking about that would have been kept confidential? Was this a report that was given to the police or the report that was aired? Who reported this? Also, when this report was done, all the allegations against so many had not been given to the police. So, if you make false allegations against someone, a reporter may not have to give any details, but this was not given by a reporter. And the list wasn't confidential either as it was passed out to others. So, where the names came from and who put the names down and why is what no one want to say. But, all things become known eventually!
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 23, 2009 14:11:38 GMT -5
hmmm.... Wasn't sure what you were talking about for a moment there. Standards for Making a Report Citation: Comp. Laws § 722.623
A report is required when a reporter has reasonable cause to suspect child abuse or neglect.In my post above, by 'reporter' it was referring to one who makes a report to the authorities. That information I posted was from the Statues for the State Of Michigan listed on the following website: www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/state/index.cfm?event=stateStatutes.processSearchThis website list all the states on it. I think you are referring to a 'reporter' in the context of what one does for a living. (The newspaper reporter and the ABC news reporter) And the list wasn't confidential either as it was passed out to others. So, where the names came from and who put the names down and why is what no one want to say. But, all things become known eventually!I don't know what list you are referring to. I have heard of an original group of around 30, and then someone posted that there was over 100 names and then we heard that there were 200 names given to the authorities. I have no idea as to what the actual number of names reported is. Where the list(s) came from you say were passed around I don't have a clue. I certainly never had such a list sent to me. The names I heard that were connected to this was from a variety of people from all over the place. Some of those who passed on names were professing and some were exes. Scott
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 23, 2009 14:36:04 GMT -5
Wow, no one gave you a copy of the names that was being passed out? Don't you feel slighted or unimportant. I do!! I want the list and now!! But glad I'm not the person that was passing it out!!!!
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 23, 2009 15:03:30 GMT -5
Wow, no one gave you a copy of the names that was being passed out? Don't you feel slighted or unimportant. I do!! I want the list and now!! But glad I'm not the person that was passing it out!!!! Nope, don't feel slighted at all. (I will admit to being kind of unimportant though!) Sounds to me like any such list is one I wouldn't be interested in. Names are unimportant to me (or WINGS) unless there are specifics given. WINGS asks for names, dates, places, circumstances and such when people report to us. As such, a list of names would have very little meaning. Scott
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 23, 2009 20:43:35 GMT -5
I'm not so sure if we’re getting full discloser here or only what one feels /thinks others want to hear? Or should hear?
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 23, 2009 20:50:45 GMT -5
There was to be another hearing today. But for some strange reason it was postponed. Something about the doc hasn’t been doing his job/follow up on the last holdout/bandit?
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 23, 2009 21:47:03 GMT -5
Furthermore to our discussion Mr: BD at the first conv’t in MI of 2008 do you not remember our 2.5 -3hr discussion/conversation. Did I not foreworn you in how this was going to go and or how it was going to unfold. I did believe we had an understanding till you and JF went to LS and his brother in law and sister and tried to pull the the stunt off about him to his brother in-law and sister, then went on bad mouthing the family, that is at the heart of this matter, (several months ago). Yes I knew about it almost right away along with other matters of concern to the Kingdom. Now again we hold out the olive branch WILL ALL OF YOU PUT AN END TO THIS NONSENCE THAT ALL CAN MOVE ON!!! Or do you wish to drag it on and or do one or several of you want to end up were some of you tried to put us?
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 24, 2009 11:40:30 GMT -5
I will wait for someone else to give you the real reason as I am not sure. I just know that he was put out of preaching with nothing and had to have help even getting a car to go home. I'm pretty sure this is under the present overseer. How he came back to Michigan, could probably be answered only by the overseer. Now it seems like he is the one that answers for the overseer and is in close contact with the two ex workers. Anything they know he knows. And anything he knows the overseer knows. And it seems that he knows more than he would want anyone to know. But, in the standard mode as mentioned, what one knows is definitely to good not to repeat it to another. So, that is when it isn't so neat to know a lot! And worse to be involved in a lot!!
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 24, 2009 18:15:56 GMT -5
Perhaps it is true in ways JF never left a paper trail in some aspects via his own writing, but he did leave a people trail in the which will testify and they don’t need to lie nor mislead as He and his team has been doing. And friend the line is growing. Also written in his letter posted awhile back should have in clouded but not limited to; was there any that left the work or truth because of him and his dealings directly or indirectly over the years, thru misuse of power or inappropriate actions. And or not afraid of him whom also will come forward and tell the truth.
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 24, 2009 20:24:10 GMT -5
As far as a list of names being unimportant. I'll bet every name that was given could be named right now. And, those names will never be forgotten. And what will they be mingled with? A complete fisaco of lies. So, they would have importance, because if that name ever came up again, I am sure it would be remembered as being given before and what the accusation was. And that information would be given to the authorities immediately. So, why names should not be given to anyone, and guess what, there were specifics given with the name! So, that would be of interest to Wings. Get the connection! So, no matter what, a name has been labeled falsely and a reputation has been mired. How many people have been tarnished?
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 25, 2009 10:29:44 GMT -5
Remember Kenneth Diesmore now diseased how many came up against him gave him a hard time about 16-18yrs ago? Weldon Burgess was also vehemently picked on because of accusations that were brought against Kenneth, and that Weldon refused to dismiss Kenneth because he (Weldon) was able to see through it, that it was all fabricated lies. This was started by his (KENNETHS) companion who was younger and still alive and there for cannot give his name out. Now this same group in the thumb area is the same group including elders along with others are involved in this fiasco.
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 25, 2009 11:14:27 GMT -5
jhjmr: Humm--Well I suspect that these two workers were prompted and encouraged to do what they did----Only after things started to blowup did the so called faithful turn on each other. If they were a support arm for the twins then I would think it would be good to continue rather then strip the twins from any support. Granted things got way out of hand-- Well this is what is expected when you have a group which feels they are the only ones right in the whole world. Pompous self righteousness always lays way for a mistake to become bigger and bigger and bigger. (My opinion) Well as I posted before, it seems that this has been happening for the last 3 0r 4 years in Michigan----I mean workers end up judging saints based on flawed input from other so called saints--- Have any of you watched a group of "baby chicks" in a pen. If one has a slight sore on it, the others start pecking at that sore and if left unchecked will peck that chick to death. From all that I have been reading this seems to be a standard mode of operation in the group. If you have a weakness then most all turn on you to destroy you. After all they would not want to get tainted. By the way, Why did BD come to the UK a few years back when he was out of the work---and why was he out of the work? ? Good point uk01. I do not know the whole some of the matter, but If I may answer in part that BD was dismissed by JF after his motor cycle accident he had in around 2001(was not on the active list in 02-03 listed as in WI were his parents were, even that ended in tragedy) he mangled the bike and caused severe damage to himself. Of which has been widely questioned about the blow he took to his head, along with the tragedy of his mother. However he seems to be JF’s right hand man onto this day in MI especially with LS out of the way…. . Humm….? I have also found out that he always wanted to go to Africa and the UK so he took the opportunity while he had it, because he apparently knew he was going to return back into the work…
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 25, 2009 11:33:03 GMT -5
How will it shed light on way things should be done? The allegations were lies and some of those that were involved in orchestrating the lies are free from any guilt. I believe it will happen again only in another place. Sadly enough Lin, your right given the ability of humans to remember the past and there ability, in not, allowing it to happen again, coupled with the fact the master planners seldom get penalised.
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Apr 25, 2009 12:05:26 GMT -5
I really don't like detracting from the Michigan Case, but here it my whole point, in regards to everything about this board and other thoughts. Here, in this "way" called the "truth" you have two opposing sides. One is right, and one is wrong. That is a fact. Since that is a fact, and the sides remain fixed, one is exulted, and the other is condemned. Both sides may remain in meetings, but will both sides be "saved" in eternity? Since that can not be possible, some of the F&W's are condemned and some are not. Since that is true, if both sides remain fixed, then are they all "God's true children in His true way"? If that is so, than anyone that chooses to take the name "Christian" can be "saved", not only just the F&W's. I don't think that just anyone that claims to be a "Christian", either the F&W's or anywhere else, makes them such. I believe that only those that have a working relationship with God, are His "true people". Those that have been "removed" from the 2x2s and those that have never been in the 2x2s are equal in that respect. So much for being "the only way" and the "truth". Truth is something that lives within us, and people, both in the 2x2 way and out, have equal opportunity to serve God. I know that this kind of thinking will get someones panties in a bunch, but anyone that believes in God that can argue with this, I am afraid, is deluded. Prove me wrong, (Nathan, don't even go there) anyone else.............................Pianoman I believe if I am taking my way and believing and living in my way then my way is wrong, and the LORDS way is right. However if I am living in the LORDS way and someone or others say I'm not and there are other ways to live. Then then that person/s is wrong and the LORDs' WAY is correct! AS the old adage goes IF my way is wrong and your way is wrong whose way is right? Answer is simple; the LORDS way.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 25, 2009 13:06:57 GMT -5
Lin, two imcompetent girls made a bunch of accusations, That is the false information that the church is going on. But, if you haven't heard, the overseer said, those girls don't lie and everyone was led to believe everything. From abuse to rape to murder! Yes, all three things were accused. Is the whole church imcompetent? Perhaps they could find room at the forensic center for a whole lot of people to say the least. You'd have to be incompetent to swallow the garbage that was claimed to have happened. There are absolutely no excuse, misunderstanding or convincing to believe these allegations. You could make a real sick science fiction movie if anyone was that hard up to watch it!! And Nathan, I agree, a thorough investigation! Do you know anyone interested in doing that? Perhaps you could let others know that this is something of a importance. If not in friendly manner, perhaps hit the pocket book manner!! Since the friends(that is the majority) have NO way of knowing just where any donations or gifts of money end up among the workers, it would nearly take at least a nationwide boycott by the friends of not giving "any" money at all to any of the workers to be "sure" that it wasn't funneled to those who are of the guilty parties in MI.......I think most of the friends would draw back on that because in reality as Scott Ross has mentioned on TMB before that most of the workers out there in the different fields see very little money support.....about the only time they may get such support is for medical needs and travelling needs. Even the "retired" workers are generally put on the Medicaid or Welfare programs in the state in which they end up in....and their money support is minimal, through individual gifts. I don't see any way that would be fair to boycott the guilty in MI without hurting more innocent people! Money is what talks and is what has power and it's proven that that is so within the truth's fellowship....the bible has said the "love of money is the root of all evil." I say it is in this case as it is in some other lesser traumatic situations within the truth's fellowship as well as out of it. JMO Good point siwells. However repeated times past has proven drastic measures to work and make others jump in and rectify those situation/s as to… damage control… lessen hemorrhage … avoid complete carnage…or revise/revamp or simply create a new system; In short, chaos, mayhem, new order. Sounds almost like or were the world is at.
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Post by pianoman on Apr 25, 2009 14:41:19 GMT -5
As White Knight and Siwells point out, there are drastic measures that can be taken.
There are differing opinions on how hard of a measure needs to take place, but I think that peace needs to be the first goal.
If peace can not be attained, then those that choose not to make and have peace, will suffer the consequences of their actions, whether workers or not. They need correction, and prison would do that if they continue in wrongdoing.
White Knight, it is exactly true, it is not a your or my way, or the highway, but the Lord's way or no way.
It would be nice to see this resolved, but until the lies stop, nothing will be settled.
I would urge all to remain fixed on that point. I know that I have placed strong opinions in here, but they are meant to wake people up, not condemn them.
This comes from the lack of communication, especially between the workers and the people involved, on both sides.
I hope peace will be the end to all of this....................................................Pianoman
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