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Post by Anonymous on Apr 10, 2008 21:40:56 GMT -5
Lets start at the begging.SEPTEMBER 1st 2007. When two sister workers, talked with the twins & the parents for two hours.This talk was about, abuse only in the home. NOW bear in mind these worker have not been in their home [accusers] but save an hour. Prior to this & have not been since. Now something smells here.There were a floury of events that followed ,there on in. Yes the girls were told they were over 18 yrs old & that they did not have to go back home.This was a good move,on the workers part. However I do have a bit of a problem what happened from there. These girls should have been taken to a shelter. Away from the religion!! AS to avoid pitting friends against friends. Then advised to: take it to the right avenue IE. authorities. taken them to the authorities & tell them of the situation. Leaving it there, that they might continue to minister the GOOD NEWS! However this was not done. On the court dockets" the workers are the complainant the twins are the witnesses." The parents get shunned. Right to this day. Plus the info coming out THE twins are not privy to. Is coming from another source. I wounder were! Peoples names, addresses,past history,etc. so far there has been 20-30 people and counting. This is pitting workers against workers ,friends against friends etc. this is most certainly not KINGDOM MINDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry got ahead of myself. The abuse allegations went went to sexual abuse in NOVEMBER. Does it smell like a scam yet. This looks like a diversion tactic, abuse didn't work,lets try another avenue. This writer believes this is a cover up. To divert another ongoing investigation into the workers in MICHIGAN. As Friend did call into that family,and did worn them,that they were being used as a smoke screen. This will do for now. More to come!! The truth will come out. & I trust it will!!! Scott is right there is more than meets the eye in this situation. SO don't be so quick to jump to conclusions!Once again, someone doesn't know the truth. The parents have not been shunned. They have chosen to separate themselves because they are trying to victimize themselves more than children. Don't you believe the "pitting" as you suggest, is really good vs. evil being sorted out. I do feel sorry for many in the midst of all this mess that are getting misinformed of the real situation. This is how information is getting messed up. I've learned in all of this, don't believe anything you hear. Kingdom minded??? Don't you think ridding the religion of evil people and practices is kingdom minded? All of these evil works mar Christ’s life and sacrifice. Don’t forget about the younger children and what has been exhibited in their behaviors and what they have said.
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rn
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Post by rn on Apr 10, 2008 22:47:45 GMT -5
it certainly is strange that so many outside the state of MI seems to know more of what's going on than those of us who live here....granted there may be those on this board who do live in the state, but there are few who are directly involved with these issues. so much of what i read seems to be specutlation....perhaps i am wrong, but i don't think so.
rn
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Post by cheechette on Apr 11, 2008 11:36:59 GMT -5
Answer to White Night - It sounds like it was a DARK NIGHT!!! You are right God does not lie. He is a spirit and does no talking. CUT THE BULL!!!! We know that didn't come from God!!!!! because if he did talk that would not be the language he would use.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2008 11:53:32 GMT -5
I appreciate the rebuffs, jesters & the twist & turns. But how can anyone correct me when. WE were there Sept. 1st 07. REMEMBER GOD DOES NOT LIE!!!! Plus I am not an exer. Though some may wish me to be. So best back up. I am a defender of the Kingdom. If we walk to gather then lets do so. And cut the bull!! THE TRUTH OF THIS MATTER WILL COME OUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No matter who tries to cover it up! I agree White Night ... Jesus said that all the things that folks want to keep hidden -- (and perpetrators just moved to a new field) will be revealed. In spite of the fact that these secrets are kept under strict darkness in the group, they will be revealed. Jesus said Matt 10:26-27 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. [27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Preach ye upon the housetops -- could that be the Internet?? Pretty scary stuff for a system that is so dependent on the darkness in so many issues.
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Post by From Michigan on Apr 11, 2008 12:29:19 GMT -5
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Post by nitro on Apr 11, 2008 12:46:00 GMT -5
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rn
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Post by rn on Apr 11, 2008 13:15:33 GMT -5
scott, if you are on line will u please let me know? thanks, rn
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 11, 2008 13:47:43 GMT -5
Howdy rn, If you know how to use the PM feature you can get to me that way. Just click on my name over here to the left (above that vicious looking picture) and it will take you to my profile. Then you can click on 'send personal message' and you can get a hold of me. Also my email is listed and you can use that also: bescottross@aol.com Either way is fine with me. Scott
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Post by ooT on Apr 11, 2008 16:45:16 GMT -5
You are the light of the world—like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp and then puts it under a basket. Instead, a lamp is placed on a stand, where it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father.
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Post by Silent Defender on Apr 11, 2008 18:49:37 GMT -5
Lets start at the begining.SEPTEMBER 1st 2007. When two sister workers, talked with the twins & the parents for two hours.This talk was about, abuse only in the home. NOW bear in mind these worker have not been in their home [accusers] but save an hour. Prior to this & have not been since. Now something smells here.There were a floury of events that followed ,there on in. Yes the girls were told they were over 18 yrs old & that they did not have to go back home.This was a good move,on the workers part. However I do have a bit of a problem what happened from there. These girls should have been taken to a shelter. Away from the religion!! AS to avoid pitting friends against friends. Then advised to: take it to the right avenue IE. authorities. taken them to the authorities & tell them of the situation. Leaving it there, that they might continue to minister the GOOD NEWS! However this was not done. On the court dockets" the workers are the complainant the twins are the witnesses.& quot; The parents get shunned. Right to this day. Plus the info coming out THE twins are not privy to. Is coming from another source. I wounder were! Peoples names, addresses,past history,etc. so far there has been 20-30 people and counting. This is pitting workers against workers ,friends against friends etc. this is most certainly not KINGDOM MINDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry got ahead of myself. The abuse allegations went went to sexual abuse in NOVEMBER. Does it smell like a scam yet. This looks like a diversion tactic, abuse didn't work,lets try another avenue. This writer believes this is a cover up. To divert another ongoing investigation into the workers in MICHIGAN. As Friend did call into that family,and did worn them,that they were being used as a smoke screen. This will do for now. More to come!! The truth will come out. & I trust it will!!! Scott is right there is more than meets the eye in this situation. SO don't be so quick to jump to conclusions!Once again, someone doesn't know the truth. The parents have not been shunned. They have chosen to separate themselves because they are trying to victimize themselves more than children. Don't you believe the "pitting" as you suggest, is really good vs. evil being sorted out. I do feel sorry for many in the midst of all this mess that are getting misinformed of the real situation. This is how information is getting messed up. I've learned in all of this, don't believe anything you hear. Kingdom minded??? Don't you think ridding the religion of evil people and practices is kingdom minded? All of these evil works mar Christ’s life and sacrifice. Don’t forget about the younger children and what has been exhibited in their behaviors and what they have said. 1) Gary is not a person who speaks up when he does not know the truth. 2) If the parents have not been shunned, as you put it, then why are the friends not there for them, when they need them the most? 3)The Truth will be found out as mush as you want to hide it. 4) Getting arid of the evel people and practices is kinngdom minded. Shall I go on? By the way, did you read the Redo?
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Post by Silent Defender on Apr 11, 2008 19:03:14 GMT -5
RE: Did you read the Redo? What is the Redo? and where is it? Page 8 right after Gary's post or the one right under yours.
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Post by WOW on Apr 11, 2008 19:04:56 GMT -5
Mercy!
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Post by White Knight on Apr 11, 2008 19:36:47 GMT -5
RE: Did you read the Redo? What is the Redo? and where is it? The redo is the corrected version! Now would you identify your self. As seemingly you have more accurate info than I do! For I have done my home work. Since being dagged into this quagmire when the police, talked two of my daughters . Trooper CRAIG called my middle daughter "liar." When she was telling the truth.
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Post by Same to you on Apr 11, 2008 20:01:31 GMT -5
RE: Did you read the Redo? What is the Redo? and where is it? The redo is the corrected version! Now would you identify your self. As seemingly you have more accurate info than I do! For I have done my home work. Since being dagged into this quagmire when the police, talked two of my daughters . Trooper CRAIG called my middle daughter "liar." When she was telling the truth. Now would you identify YOURSELF?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 11, 2008 21:38:33 GMT -5
it certainly is strange that so many outside the state of MI seems to know more of what's going on than those of us who live here....granted there may be those on this board who do live in the state, but there are few who are directly involved with these issues. so much of what i read seems to be specutlation....perhaps i am wrong, but i don't think so. rn You should not be surprised by that the locals don't know anything about this case. My experience is - and I DO HAVE experience in this kind of situation - the people in even in the meetings of individuals involved probably don't really know what is going on. Spin control is very refined and effective, and when the workers ask that no one "say" anything about it, for some people that means "don't listen either". I don't have to know anything about anyone involved in this case, but I can assure you - a lot of people have a lot of interests to protect, and they're very busy at it right now. That's just how it is. Bob Williston
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 11, 2008 22:01:23 GMT -5
One thing I have learned in life; JUSTICE is not administered by courts. TRUTH is not found in the legal system. JUSTICE does not always prevail in the legal system. I can clearly remember in the legal system where I was completely correct in my pursuit of JUSTICE but I compromised to avoid a long protracted and expensive law suit and JUSTICE was not achieved. I also can clearly remember where a father was prosecuted by CPS by a vengeful and lying daughter because he objected to her drug abuse. She accused him of dreadful unspeakable actions and the CPS were a willing and ready group to take up these completely untrue allegations. He was vindicated but destroyed by the actions of a silly and foolish young girl. It sounds like your problem may have been that you "compsomised" the truth. You can't "compromise" truth and then expect the truth to bring about justice. Bob Williston
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Post by To Guru Bob on Apr 12, 2008 3:52:17 GMT -5
Bob, sure I compromised truth. It was that or spend 6 weeks in court and perhaps 100k plus to prove I was correct.
Every day every one of us compromise in some way.
Think about your home life. I have compromised in mine for 40 odd years.
The pursuit of truth does not always lead to justice being meted out.
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Post by Anonymous on Apr 12, 2008 21:38:22 GMT -5
Once again, someone doesn't know the truth. The parents have not been shunned. They have chosen to separate themselves because they are trying to victimize themselves more than children. Don't you believe the "pitting" as you suggest, is really good vs. evil being sorted out. I do feel sorry for many in the midst of all this mess that are getting misinformed of the real situation. This is how information is getting messed up. I've learned in all of this, don't believe anything you hear. Kingdom minded??? Don't you think ridding the religion of evil people and practices is kingdom minded? All of these evil works mar Christ’s life and sacrifice. Don’t forget about the younger children and what has been exhibited in their behaviors and what they have said. 1) Gary is not a person who speaks up when he does not know the truth. 2) If the parents have not been shunned, as you put it, then why are the friends not there for them, when they need them the most? 3)The Truth will be found out as mush as you want to hide it. 4) Getting arid of the evel people and practices is kinngdom minded. Shall I go on? By the way, did you read the Redo? Maybe what the children are saying their parents did is actually true. Did you think of that? The bad part about this whole case is that people are believing what they are told is the truth and in most cases this is not correct. Everyone on the parent's side is being misinformed by the parents. They are not being told the truth and unfortunately are not doing their homework so anyone interacting with the parents spreads more misinformation. Gossip is a viscious cycle. The enemy is working within. Just keep that in mind. Again, don't believe everything you hear. People can claim to know the truth, but even they probably received the information from someone else claiming to know the truth.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 12, 2008 23:57:56 GMT -5
Bob, sure I compromised truth. It was that or spend 6 weeks in court and perhaps 100k plus to prove I was correct. Every day every one of us compromise in some way. Think about your home life. I have compromised in mine for 40 odd years. The pursuit of truth does not always lead to justice being meted out. Oh I'm no guru. But yes, I know we all compromise all the time. We just have to decide what our limits are and accept them, don't we. Come to think of it, religious "truth" is never fixed anyway - it is by nature and has always been a compromise among fact, perception, experience, and culture. Bob Williston
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Post by White Knight on Apr 13, 2008 20:11:02 GMT -5
1) Gary is not a person who speaks up when he does not know the truth. 2) If the parents have not been shunned, as you put it, then why are the friends not there for them, when they need them the most? 3)The Truth will be found out as mush as you want to hide it. 4) Getting arid of the evil people and practices is kingdom minded. Shall I go on? By the way, did you read the Redo? Maybe what the children are saying their parents did is actually true. Did you think of that? The bad part about this whole case is that people are believing what they are told is the truth and in most cases this is not correct. Everyone on the parent's side is being misinformed by the parents. They are not being told the truth and unfortunately are not doing their homework so anyone interacting with the parents spreads more misinformation. Gossip is a vicious cycle. The enemy is working within. Just keep that in mind. Again, don't believe everything you hear. People can claim to know the truth, but even they probably received the information from someone else claiming to know the truth. My dear tunnel vision friend it is quite clear to all of us to which side you are on by your gesturing and continued discrediting, distorting and disputing of facts. As you can see I have not taken sides but merely stated honest facts. If you have read my posts including the Redo, I have already identified myself. Now would you like to answer my question that I have already asked at lest seven postings up. This is the last time I will answer to these type of questions because, it is obvious that it is a game of distortion to you.
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terry
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Post by terry on Apr 13, 2008 21:05:59 GMT -5
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and calm down. Only a very few people truely know what happened. People like Scott have shown a relentless pursuit of wrongdoers while showing a great deal of restraint before putting any accusations or names forward unless there is real evidence to do so. I appreciate that.
I may have posted this before, but will do it again. About 20-25 years ago a man in our town that we knew--had coached youth sports with him--was in the process of getting a divorce when several of his daughters friends accussed him of molestation. He was a teacher and a part-time insurance salesman--lost both of those positions and his name was in the paper. The day his trial was to start the parents of all three girls decided they wouldn't let thier daughter testify as it would be too traumatic, so the charges where dropped. I don't know whether he was guilty or not ( I didn't much like him but---) but his life was destroyed and he never had a chance to present his side.
Then about 10 years ago I was chair of the parish council and our priest was removed suddenly. He wasn't a people person and was very abrubt and abrasive and was of the old school of touching and hugging kids. Four about three months I fielded three or four calls a night from people with all sorts of stories concerning alleged instances--the rumors where all over the board. My universal response was--give me a first hand account--or second hand from your child and my second call will be to the archdiocese--the first being to Child protective services. Give me a name from your rumor and I'll investigate and then call CPS. No one every came forward. It was extemely stressful--my disgust with priests that violated thier position had to be weighed against accusations based on rumor.
The fact that the secular authorities are investigating the situation in Mich is a positive. Finding the truth (sorry no pun intended) is difficult at anytime, but at least it's outside the 2x2's and we have Scott keeping an eye on the situation. Speculation on our part is just that.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 13, 2008 22:56:02 GMT -5
Howdy, I have been keeping a low profile on all this because of what Terry pointed out above: People like Scott have shown a relentless pursuit of wrongdoers while showing a great deal of restraint before putting any accusations or names forward unless there is real evidence to do so. I appreciate that.The fact that the secular authorities are investigating the situation in Mich is a positive. Finding the truth (sorry no pun intended) is difficult at anytime, but at least it's outside the 2x2's and we have Scott keeping an eye on the situation. Speculation on our part is just that.I appreciate that people acknowledge that I only want the FACTS to be posted here. Right now what I have posted is what has been reported in the news. The fact that something was reported is a fact. Whether what has been reported is in fact the TRUTH isn't known. There are two totally separate issues in Michigan in regards to what I originally posted. First there is the CHILD abuse case that is making its way through the court system. This case has been going on for several months now. Second, there is the investigation into allegations of SEXUAL abuse which is more recent. The problem is that because the same family is involved in both issues it has created a lot of confusion as far as what I see posted here. I agree that a 'deep breath' needs to be taken in BOTH of these matters. As of right now, no one has been actually arrested and charged with a crime. That may happen, but until it does everything is pure speculation. Several men are being investigated in regards to the sexual abuse allegations. Whether ANY of them will be charged with a crime remains to be seen. I have also been in communication with relatives of the family involved in all this. Again, at this point no one has been actually charged with a crime. All of this is in the hands of the authorities to sort through and decide the issues. Until there are charges brought, or a court decision rendered, everything at this point is just speculation and gossip if posted here on the board. It should also be pointed out that the original two workers that were sent home (and being investigated) were because of issues unrelated to this family, but LINKED to them by allegations brought forth. I have been in close contact with people on both sides of the issue. It has caused a lot of heartache for all involved, and the one thing I know we can all do is to pray that the truth is determined by the authorities, and the correct decisions reached. Ultimately, it is the children whose welfare is at stake here. Whether they get to return to the family or not. Currently the 4 younger children are in foster care, and the parents have supervised visitation rights a couple of times a week. I will post anything that is factual as it comes to my attention. That will mean something that is handed down through the court system. I will also report on news articles as I did to start this thread, but again, what is reported may not be the truth, but rather simply what the newscaster THINKS are facts. I don't know if this cleared anything up in regards to all this, but I thought I would pass on the above thoughts. Scott
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Post by Hmmmmmm on Apr 14, 2008 8:48:24 GMT -5
Scott,
I would like to also say in regards to your comment of facts coming from the court system....
all that comes from a court system is the most convincing story... not necessarily facts.
I have been there and seen that. The problem is, unless you have a way to prove the story incorrect, it stands. When it is a child against a parent it is one's word against another and the courts unfortunately usually stand on the child's side no matter what. I can understand that from the protection stand point, but I have seen fabricated stories hold water and destroy families while being coached by a disgruntled family member or counselor.
We need to be praying for these people... they are in a fight for their lives. Those in the wrong need help to turn from their indiscretions and confess.
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Post by Cornwall on Apr 14, 2008 14:34:32 GMT -5
Unfortunately, this is how far false allegations can go: www.religioustolerance.org/ra_cornw.htmIf you have been falsely accused, have patience, pray and persevere. You will receive some support and you will find out who your friends are. If you happen to know anyone involved, try to keep the lines of communication open. Small gestures and kind acts can go a long way. Resist the urge to turtle. If there are court proceedings in your area, try to attend in order to provide moral support to anyone involved, accused or victim, and also so that you can act as a witness to history in the future.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2008 16:03:38 GMT -5
Scott, I would like to also say in regards to your comment of facts coming from the court system.... all that comes from a court system is the most convincing story... not necessarily facts. I have been there and seen that. The problem is, unless you have a way to prove the story incorrect, it stands. When it is a child against a parent it is one's word against another and the courts unfortunately usually stand on the child's side no matter what. I can understand that from the protection stand point, but I have seen fabricated stories hold water and destroy families while being coached by a disgruntled family member or counselor. We need to be praying for these people... they are in a fight for their lives. Those in the wrong need help to turn from their indiscretions and confess. I share your feelings on this --- I feel that a complete trust in the legal system as the only method of protecting children from abuse is extremely naive. It can also be a simple way of shunning responsibility -- and trying to slough it off on someone else. To me it is stupid to suggest that every suspicion that arises in anyones mind should be reported to the police. Suspicion needs to be acted on -- but don't trust the police to do the work that ordinary people have the responsibility to do. Children deserve protection long before it becomes a judicial issue -- The police are only an option if it has already gone farther than anyone should have let it go.
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Post by ram unplugged on Apr 14, 2008 16:53:35 GMT -5
I'm with you on this Edgar. Prevention is better than cure.
Usually the police can only act when a matter has moved from preparation to perpetration. By that time a crime has usually occurred. Fine for investigation and punishment, but too late to stop the thing happening in the first place.
An offender being traced and being dealt with in court hardly brings comfort to a victim. Better the thing never happened in the first place.
The police can only act on facts. Suspicions are not enough unless they are supported by facts. Investigations uncover facts but again prevention is better than cure.
We must do all we can to prevent things happening in the first place.
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Post by White Knight on Apr 14, 2008 19:52:54 GMT -5
I would have to say, AMEN! TO most of this. But what should the penalty be in a malicious act of faults accusationchildren & or young adults make? How does one mend such psychological trauma? How does one regain trust & faith again? I friend still grope with this. And then to be accused again. NOT even being there. I am not looking to cut any of you good folk down. For if there is a perpetrator they should be dealt with. Yes I to need to be patient as I am used to dealing with things speedily.
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