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Post by Sharon on Apr 24, 2009 6:28:41 GMT -5
Yes, Cherie, those verses about the fruit of the spirit are essential....I often think about the one fruit that isn't natural for mankind...."longsuffering"!
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 24, 2009 8:33:43 GMT -5
After 12 pages I'm still waiting for something that jumps out and presents itself as a fair and unbiased answer- to some I give credit for attempting to sound fair. Why does this topic have so many riled up? Isn't God the final decsion maker when it comes to our salvation? Didn't Jesus stoop and write in the dirt trying to avoid those who wanted to judge? Doesn't the verse say"judge not lest ye be judged"? How many feel so strong about condemning people who have had a relationship that didn't work,and then found someone that made their life complete, but yet there maybe some other part of the scriptures that they don't agree with, that they don't follow? LET GOD DO THE JUDGING! Now that is so true, it is easy for me to put my arms around Jesus and parade Him around (in the form of the Bible) saying: 'hear, hear this is Jesus and He is perfect, you better listen to what He's saying, ..." But we are to have Jesus IN US, in ME, because when I talk, I realize that people look at ME, not to the Bible. They want to see just exactly from whom those words are coming from. I just realized that that's why I am being criticized as being self righteous, a self proclaimed prophet. And you are right Dietcoke, I do sound as if I had stones in my hand. Whatnow, is right also, as so many others here, and when I say those words that; "no, no one can divorce and re-marry" I realize just what a hypocrite I sound like. Your statement made me see myself standing opposite Jesus and holding stones in my hand, while a bunch of 'divorced' people that I brought were standing behind HIM. I am ashamed, and must drop the stones.
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 24, 2009 9:28:18 GMT -5
Siwells: You just brought out the one thing that Jesus did show a positive thing about the adultery issue, I'm not sure how much this particular case would really be into the D&R issue, but NONETHELESS, Jesus showed love and mercy....He also showed that one human is not to judge another in an issue that someone thinks it is worthy of stoning to death....No man has that right.....Now I'm not talking about capital punishment for murdering as God said how that was to be done.....limb for limb, eye for eye and life for life.....But I'm talking about something that is actually a sin against one's self as well as perhaps defrauding someone else....Man is not to judge that at all...because they are not free of sins just as bad.
Now I must ask you siwells, are you saying that Jesus condoned the old saying: "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"? That we are to kill someone who kills another human?
Matt 5:38-42 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. NKJV
Sins unto death included: 'adultery, fornication, murder, breaking the Sabbath, and even disobeying your parents. Jesus summed it all up that we are to forgive all that, no?
He said that GOD did put the law in place, and the world is still under the law. Those under the law shall be judged by the law, and shall die by what the law says, in Romans it explains in detail.
If anyone 'murders' another human, they are no more under 'grace' but must face the law. Now it is clear that if that person repents, 'truly repents' from their heart and show fruit of their repentance, then they fall under 'grace' again, but part of repentance is making restitution as best way as possible. Killing someone, we must go on our knees and ask the Lord to forgive us, and also go before the 'law' and face whatever punishment is dealt to us.
Matt 5:25-26 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.NKJV
Here is where we as Christians live 'outside the law', an example would be lets say we lived on an island inhabited by Christians only, and some Brother killed another Brother, the family is to;
Matt 18:15-17 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
'if he hears you', another words if he admits wrong and makes restitutions according to his ability, he once again dies to the flesh and comes alive again and repents, (for we die daily, ...) it ends there. We are to forgive him no matter how grave the sin and great the loss, since Jesus gave Himself for us, dying on the cross.
Now it says, what if: 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. NKJV
Here is where he would no longer be a part of us, he would be shunned by the Church and no one would associate with him any longer, 'not even to eat with such a one'. God will take care of him according to HIS judgment whether to be eaten alive by a lion, or if the Lord made him wait till THAT DAY, where all those who have rejected Christ by living in sin will be judged.
But since I cannot find this 'island' inhabited by True Christians, the world at hand have laws and he will be judged by the law, and the worldly judge will give him the punishment due him. But we as Christians are NOT to take part in that, for that would be like throwing a stone, and we know that only HE who is without sin can do that.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 24, 2009 10:18:48 GMT -5
Whatnow, is right also, as so many others here, and when I say those words that; "no, no one can divorce and re-marry" I realize just what a hypocrite I sound like. Your statement made me see myself standing opposite Jesus and holding stones in my hand, while a bunch of 'divorced' people that I brought were standing behind HIM.
I am ashamed, and must drop the stones. As one of those people who are divorced and remarried, I appreciate this post from you Odon. When one is faced by a bunch of 'stonethrowers' it IS a good feeling to know that we have Christ there between 'us' and 'them'. It doesn't matter what the sin is we may feel we see in another's life, we need to remember that they too (if they are a Christian) are living under the same grace of God as we do. We should then extend the same grace to them that God extends to us. It's a matter of living 'graciously' toward those around us. If grace increases when sin increases in my life, then it is doing the same for others as well. Good thoughts there my friend. Scott
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 24, 2009 11:28:58 GMT -5
I am so touched by the person who wrote 'I am ashamed, and must drop the stones' - Thank you for your honesty and your willingness to be open minded......I want to have more of those qualities in my heart.....
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 24, 2009 11:29:04 GMT -5
Yes, Cherie, those verses about the fruit of the spirit are essential....I often think about the one fruit that isn't natural for mankind...."longsuffering"! "essential"?? Joy is "essential" to what?
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Post by Gene on Apr 24, 2009 11:31:35 GMT -5
After 12 pages I'm still waiting for something that jumps out and presents itself as a fair and unbiased answer- to some I give credit for attempting to sound fair. Why does this topic have so many riled up? Isn't God the final decsion maker when it comes to our salvation? Didn't Jesus stoop and write in the dirt trying to avoid those who wanted to judge? Doesn't the verse say"judge not lest ye be judged"? How many feel so strong about condemning people who have had a relationship that didn't work,and then found someone that made their life complete, but yet there maybe some other part of the scriptures that they don't agree with, that they don't follow? LET GOD DO THE JUDGING! Now that is so true, it is easy for me to put my arms around Jesus and parade Him around (in the form of the Bible) saying: 'hear, hear this is Jesus and He is perfect, you better listen to what He's saying, ..." But we are to have Jesus IN US, in ME, because when I talk, I realize that people look at ME, not to the Bible. They want to see just exactly from whom those words are coming from. I just realized that that's why I am being criticized as being self righteous, a self proclaimed prophet. And you are right Dietcoke, I do sound as if I had stones in my hand. Whatnow, is right also, as so many others here, and when I say those words that; "no, no one can divorce and re-marry" I realize just what a hypocrite I sound like. Your statement made me see myself standing opposite Jesus and holding stones in my hand, while a bunch of 'divorced' people that I brought were standing behind HIM. I am ashamed, and must drop the stones. A&G, this is such a refreshing post - thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Peace, Gene
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Post by mexicali on Apr 24, 2009 13:31:25 GMT -5
Appreciated your post, ariandgabe - thanks. I've found it interesting to notice again that Jesus "dealt" FIRST with the sin of those who wanted to stone the woman who THEY had deemed guilty - and then He pardoned the woman. That alone would make me very afraid to decide someone was not worthy to partake of the privileges that Jesus died for - died that All mankind could enjoy the privileges, WOW - can you imagine deciding that someone could not come to meeting, or take part in meeting, or take the emblems? All because YOU felt they sinned worse than yourself. Talk about waiting for lightning to strike. Not for me. saludos - mexicali
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Post by degem on Apr 24, 2009 16:48:28 GMT -5
ariandgabe, your post #324 very thought provoking-thank you
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Post by Sharon on Apr 24, 2009 20:53:51 GMT -5
After 12 pages I'm still waiting for something that jumps out and presents itself as a fair and unbiased answer- to some I give credit for attempting to sound fair. Why does this topic have so many riled up? Isn't God the final decsion maker when it comes to our salvation? Didn't Jesus stoop and write in the dirt trying to avoid those who wanted to judge? Doesn't the verse say"judge not lest ye be judged"? How many feel so strong about condemning people who have had a relationship that didn't work,and then found someone that made their life complete, but yet there maybe some other part of the scriptures that they don't agree with, that they don't follow? LET GOD DO THE JUDGING! Now that is so true, it is easy for me to put my arms around Jesus and parade Him around (in the form of the Bible) saying: 'hear, hear this is Jesus and He is perfect, you better listen to what He's saying, ..." But we are to have Jesus IN US, in ME, because when I talk, I realize that people look at ME, not to the Bible. They want to see just exactly from whom those words are coming from. I just realized that that's why I am being criticized as being self righteous, a self proclaimed prophet. And you are right Dietcoke, I do sound as if I had stones in my hand. Whatnow, is right also, as so many others here, and when I say those words that; "no, no one can divorce and re-marry" I realize just what a hypocrite I sound like. Your statement made me see myself standing opposite Jesus and holding stones in my hand, while a bunch of 'divorced' people that I brought were standing behind HIM. I am ashamed, and must drop the stones. A world renowned poet wrote a poem called "I'd Rather See a Sermon Any Day As To Hear One"....a musician in Nashville, TN has set it to music...and it makes a delightful hymn!
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Post by Sharon on Apr 24, 2009 20:55:26 GMT -5
Yes, Cherie, those verses about the fruit of the spirit are essential....I often think about the one fruit that isn't natural for mankind...."longsuffering"! "essential"?? Joy is "essential" to what? A positive spirit, a non-judging spirit, a pleasant person to be around, one who enjoys the gift of life...etc.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 24, 2009 21:03:29 GMT -5
I value any life, A&G....but I also know that the "laws of the land" are to be obeyed as well....murder is one thing that the laws of most lands do to turn aside on.....so I try to keep my general opinion and thoughts about murder vs capital punishment pretty much neutral...so no, I do not discuss it for with discussing it, I'm apt to form an opinion, and if I was called to jury duty on such a case....I might enter into the case with prejudism and that would never do....I want my mind free of any taint of man's opinions and interpretation to where the "evidence" that is allowed int he court might be received by me without preset opinion....I know that is a hard row to handle....but if I was the one on trial for murder, I'd prefer my jury members be free from taint of personal and friend's opinions. I think of what Jesus told the theif on the cross, the thief paid for his sins, but he admitted and repented and believed on Jesus...that's all it took...Jesus' gave him full pardon...he partook freely of that grace, Jesus bought for him at the same time he paid for his sins.
I firmly believe as long as there is breath in these old bodies, that there is redemption waiting...all we have to do is repent and believe on the blessed Saviour!
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Post by samantha on Apr 25, 2009 11:58:56 GMT -5
When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties. People who do not forgive will not have their sins forgiven. That is essentially why they should not be taking the emblems because they have unforgiveness in their hearts. We are to examine ourselves to see if there is anything separating us from the Lord. Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile. So sad. That is also the essence of the Gospel message that we will be reconciled with our Saviour. The majority of divorcees may disagree with this simplistic view. The reason for most marriage failures has nothing to do with forgiveness nor the lack of it, neither is it connected with religion in any way. Incompatability is a major factor. Too little understanding of marriage and what it entails before embarking on this enormous comitment. For 2x2s there is the added disadvantage compared to most religions, in that there is no marriage guidance before, during nor after. Sometimes the only thing they receive has been criticism and as we read in so many posts, the forbidding of cleansing by the sacraments. How does that add up when the sacraments or emblems are essentially and specifically there for the cleansing of our sin if indeed we may have inadvertently committed any!!
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 25, 2009 12:14:09 GMT -5
Dear Samantha,
I think you are absolutely correct about withholding the sacraments in the context you have given.
Thank you for sharing that!
E
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 25, 2009 14:13:00 GMT -5
DC - Would you know where I can find a list of all the places in the Bible that Biblical Scholars believe were added or modified? I can find lists of "errors" and "humorous errors" in translations, and all sorts of other various lists, but have not yet been able to find a list that contains other clauses that were added (like the Johnnine comma in 1 John 5:7-8, along with the one you mentioned: I'd just like to read them all...any recommendations would be appreciated. The old, and very literal American Standard Version always translated it "put away." The King James Version translated it "put away" ten out of the eleven times Jesus used it. That eleventh instance seems to be the source of the problem. I agree with your analysis, Cherie. Here's the crux of the problem: Is the KJV the inspired Word of God? If so, God means the word in English in that critical Matthew passage to be DIVORCE. If not, then we have to answer the question of when God quit putting his stamp of approval on the rewrites and translations. The scriptures were all in a deep state of flux early on...that clause that says "except for the cause of fornication" was a late addition, we know, not original to the gospel...so maybe it's all a moot point anyway? That God quit putting his stamp of approval on the changes/translations before that date?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2009 14:22:10 GMT -5
Cherie, the Greek did not have either commas, periods, sentences nor paragraphs that I have ever been able to tell. Nor did it have proper (uppercase) nouns, using lower case letters mostly if not entirely throughout.
It takes some very good editing and knowledge of the language to decide where such things should be "changed." I know I am not qualified for it, smiles, I have enough trouble even in English! Spelling is another problem. In my studies, I have found many misspellings. On occasions the only clue for me has been context and usage.
Smiles, yes, like mispellings and also throughtout, Lizzy, you missed that one, didn't you? Thanks for pointing out my error, although I DO know how to spell both those words. Guess I am just going to have to run spell checker before posting, something I rarely do. Once, as in NT Greek, spelling was NOT the major issue it is today, which I should have also mentioned and did not.
Actually I should not have used the word "misspelling" at all, rather "variations."
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Post by JO on Apr 25, 2009 16:21:29 GMT -5
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terry
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Post by terry on Apr 25, 2009 18:32:31 GMT -5
When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties. People who do not forgive will not have their sins forgiven. That is essentially why they should not be taking the emblems because they have unforgiveness in their hearts. We are to examine ourselves to see if there is anything separating us from the Lord. Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile. So sad. That is also the essence of the Gospel message that we will be reconciled with our Saviour. The majority of divorcees may disagree with this simplistic view. The reason for most marriage failures has nothing to do with forgiveness nor the lack of it, neither is it connected with religion in any way. Incompatability is a major factor. Too little understanding of marriage and what it entails before embarking on this enormous comitment. For 2x2s there is the added disadvantage compared to most religions, in that there is no marriage guidance before, during nor after. Sometimes the only thing they receive has been criticism and as we read in so many posts, the forbidding of cleansing by the sacraments. How does that add up when the sacraments or emblems are essentially and specifically there for the cleansing of our sin if indeed we may have inadvertently committed any!! I'd never thought of it that way, That's a very profound statement, the d&r's are essentially forbidden, by workers, from recieving what they consider the only cleansing of sin. As I mentioned before, the RC don't approve of D&R's taking the emblems, but no priest would ever refuse the sacrements. The publized exceptions are politicians who publicly state that they are Catholic's in good standing, but then support abortion publicly. Those individuals leave the church no choice.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 25, 2009 18:47:23 GMT -5
Doesn't the bible pretty well leave the issue of partaking of the emblems up to the individual? I mean it says that the individual is to exam themself and if they're unworthy, etc...? Seems like this mandating of set rules isn't leaving it up to scriptural teachings...but then that's JMO
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Post by JO on Apr 25, 2009 19:11:58 GMT -5
Doesn't the bible pretty well leave the issue of partaking of the emblems up to the individual? I mean it says that the individual is to exam themself and if they're unworthy, etc...? Seems like this mandating of set rules isn't leaving it up to scriptural teachings...but then that's JMO Workers are: 1. Forbidding and discouraging marriage. 2. Forbidding folks to pray to their heavenly Father in meetings. 3. Forbidding folks to testify of what Christ means to them in meetings. 4. Forbidding folks to express their gratitude for Christ's sacrifice by partaking of the bread and wine. 5. Encouraging families to split. How sad to learn in eternity that this extremely judgmental behavior was the result of an incorrect interpretation of scripture.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 25, 2009 19:44:20 GMT -5
DC - Would you know where I can find a list of all the places in the Bible that Biblical Scholars believe were added or modified? I can find lists of "errors" and "humorous errors" in translations, and all sorts of other various lists, but have not yet been able to find a list that contains other clauses that were added (like the Johnnine comma in 1 John 5:7-8, along with the one you mentioned: I would love to find a list too, Cherie! Can anyone else help? The uncontested ones you can find, with time, by scanning the footnotes of the NIV. But many more are known. For example, scholars are all but certain that the entire 21st chapter of John is an add-on; it's call the "appendix" by scholars, not in the earliest versions we've found. Yet it remains in the NIV without apology. I'd love to see such a list as well, WITH A DISCUSSION OF THE EVIDENCE of their insertion. But what I'd like even more is a list of all the passages that may have been removed!
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 25, 2009 22:41:14 GMT -5
Thanks - I found it interesting reading.
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lizzy
Senior Member
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Post by lizzy on Apr 26, 2009 0:35:36 GMT -5
Cherie, the Greek did not have either commas, periods, sentences nor paragraphs that I have ever been able to tell. Nor did it have proper (uppercase) nouns, using lower case letters mostly if not entirely throughtout.
It takes some very good editing and knowledge of the language to decide where such things should be "changed." I know I am not qualified for it, smiles, I have enough trouble even in English! Spelling is another problem. In my studies, I have found many mispellings. On occasions the only clue for me has been context and usage. Misspellings such as mispell? I couldn't resist.
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Post by emy on Apr 26, 2009 11:39:51 GMT -5
Not sure how helpful this is, but many KJV Bibles have the "inserted" (not directly translated) words in italics.
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Post by rjs on Apr 27, 2009 18:32:12 GMT -5
God is faithful Souls to welcome, to His fellowship of love...
Don't you wished that this was true with the "truth"? Who people marry should be on no concern to the Church and its ministry. Too much judging and too little loving in so many situations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 14:34:52 GMT -5
Smiles, yes, like "mispellings" and also "throughtout," Lizzy, you missed that one, didn't you? Thanks for pointing out my error, although I DO know how to spell both those words. Guess I am just going to have to run spell checker before posting, something I rarely do. Once, as in NT Greek, spelling was NOT the major issue it is today, which I should have also mentioned and did not.
Actually I should not have used the word "misspelling" at all, rather "variations."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 8:24:00 GMT -5
Mean treatment hurts whatever the source of the mean treatment might be.
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julio
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by julio on Jul 6, 2015 18:23:02 GMT -5
the treatment of others, per Jesus example, should be love. He didn't use excuses to be mean to people. D&R people are so loved in some areas, and treated just the same as anyone else, but in other areas, it's almost like a different church!
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