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Post by sharon on May 8, 2009 10:55:11 GMT -5
[quote author=dietcoke board=general thread=
The "high council" of judges in Psalms seems to have been a concept (whether pagan or very early Hebrew) of the gods ruling the world...we see that picture in Job, for instance, Satan appears to have been on this "panel of judges"...and the language came to be embraced for human king/rulers/judges. Jewish kings, for example, were "sons of God".[/quote]
DC, it is my understanding the the "sons of God" were angels like Satan, himself that came to the earth...we read in Genesis where the "sons of God" married the daughters of men....this was an abomination to God...but it happened.
I also feel that this is one reason that the war in Heaven was fought by God's angels and they thrust Satan and his angels out of heaven....and I feel that probably this happened while Jesus was on the cross dying for the sake of men! I feel it really says this much about the advancement of the "separation" of mankind and angels.....when Jesus died on the cross, Satan no longer had welcome in heaven, because really all he and his angels had done was to accuse the brethren before God day in and day out. Thus he had to be put out of heaven, in order that Jesus as our Saviour could also serve as intercessor for us before God....there will be NO more war in heaven, is my understanding...that war has been fought and won once and for all....it took the life of God's only begotten Son to bring that about and He is the war's spoils for eternity, is my understanding...and Satan and his angels are the right victims of that war. There are no sidelining victims of that heaven's war.....that is why Satan is so determined that he will know victory on this earth!
And also this eliminates any of Satan's offspring to being taken to heaven or any of his angels' offspring....for back in Gen. IF the sons of God marrying daughters of men had children, it would only put them into the human race and they would stand a chance of eternal life, now would they? Just the process of being human....I think that was the whole point of the sons of God marrying the daughters of men was to secure their "bloodline" or their offsprings rightful place in heaven or in essence always having their place secured in heaven....that didn't work with God...He'd already populated the earth as He saw fit to, hadn't He?
He'd given the angels lenience to transverse the heavens and the earth, but I don't think that is so easily done now...though I do not scoff at the notion that there have been angels appear to folks on earth, but I don't think God allows them the opportunity of living like humans now either.
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Post by sharon on May 8, 2009 10:58:03 GMT -5
For me, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are ONE. Plain and simple. Fire, water, and wind are examples of God which I have found in the Bible. Each are a singular substance with a plural existence to help us understand this Divine Being some of us know as "God."
That Divine Being I know as God has three manifestations each with a different role. Father=Will, Son= Word, and Spirit=Power. For me, each of the latter two are always in submission to the former. ALWAYS.
For me, the Holy Spirit is also the Comforter as Yehu'shuah said and is the means whereby the Father and Son come and make their abode in mankind also as the Lord Yehu'shuah said. To my mind, the Holy Spirit is given in a babe measure to all who believe on the Lord, Yehu'shuah, the Messiah, and confess Him as Kinsman Redeemer before all others. The presence of the Holy Spirit determines those who have everlasting life.
According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit descended upon the Lord without measure. For me, The fruit of the Holy Spirit is ONE FRUIT, not fruit(s) as some refer. That fruit to me is like life, and the first of its manifestation is love. That fruit was in our Lord without measure. The Lord wept over the Holy City because of His love, but they would not.
Does not That happen to those today who have any measure of the Holy Spirit? Some could, do, and have, faulted the Lord for not showing love to those of that city despite their desire to crucify Him. I believe that is a false accusation. They were just blind to what He was trying to teach them..
For me, the Holy Spirit can be mistreated. When that happens He does not increase and produce the fruit which is so pleasing to God? Fruit that will be individually rewarded for all of believing mankind's efforts toward righteousness. Who that believes doubts that? To those who deny the "Oneness of God" I merely ask: Can you tell who is the Father, or the Lord, Yehu'shuah the Messiah, or the Holy Spirit within you?
If not, and I don't believe any of you can (for in decades of asking this question, I've never had even one believer who could descriptively distinguish between them, and relate the difference) then how do you account for the Lord's words that He and His Father would come and make Their abode with believers? Yet all who truly believe can attest to the times when they are very aware of God being with them.
Water is a solid, vapor and fluid. Each manifestation of H20 is different from the other ,yet all are "water:" the same substance. Wind in your locale is a different wind than here at mine, yet it is all wind. Fires (of the sort easily created by man) can each burn separately. Woe when they all combine, for they are indeed all fire; again, one substance..
Now these are very simple concepts which teach how God is, and can be, One. So simple children can understand them. When the Son, upon whom the Father had sent the Holy Spirit without measure, giving Him all power in Heaven and on earth prayed to His Father (The same Divine Substance) it was as Son to Father seeking the Father's will, not the will of his human nature. Now what son is NOT the same substance as his father?
Sincerely,
Dennis DJ! I appreciated your understanding of this complex issue....for it kind of runs with what I've never been able to really do and that is actually separate Jesus from God nor from the Holy Spirit, though have sense enough to know that for a short period of time, Jesus was sent to the earth, made lower then the angels but His "oneness" with God is really all that matters to me, however, it is done! Thanks again.
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Post by Zorro on May 8, 2009 12:43:46 GMT -5
ok, I'm not clear. Are you saying the Pharisees were claiming Jesus was a judge? Or Judge?
How does their claim that he supposed himself to be God relate to his answer that we are all judges?
The Pharisees considered it blasphemous that Jesus considered himself to be God. The ability to judge men's souls is an attribute of God, which Jesus had no problem laying claim to.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 8, 2009 12:50:32 GMT -5
ah. So in typical form, Jesus carefully hides any indication that he IS God. He turns it around and says "I don't have to be God to act like God, you do the same thing, judging people."
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Post by Zorro on May 8, 2009 13:01:32 GMT -5
So you are saying that by this doctrine it does NOT claim that Jesus is the Father?
That is correct. The doctrine does NOT claim that Jesus is the Father. I am not interested in arguing about the doctrine in the slightest, but I'm perfectly willing to help you understand it, if you'd like. I'm not suggesting that you must agree with it, just that if one wants to argue against it, it's helpful to understand what it is. I've seen many people that mistakenly believe that the Trinity doctrine is what is actually "Modalism"; the belief that God is one, and that he assumes 3 different "modes", sometimes he's the Father, sometimes he's the Son, sometimes he's the Spirit. When someone asks the question "if Jesus was God, who was he praying to" or "why would Jesus pray to himself" that tells me that they have mistaken the Trinity doctrine for Modalism.
The Trinity doctrine believes: 1. God is one 3. God is 3 persons - Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit 3. All 3 are equal
Now how that can be...I can't tell you. But I can point you to scripture that clearly adds up to this mysterious being that is the triune God.
Heb 1.8 is a good place to start.
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Post by Zorro on May 8, 2009 13:07:55 GMT -5
ah. So in typical form, Jesus carefully hides any indication that he IS God. He turns it around and says "I don't have to be God to act like God, you do the same thing, judging people."
That's not the way I view it. As far as him "hiding" any indication that he was God....I'm not sure that's an overall valid claim. When he described attributes of God, and laid claim to them....the Jews knew what he meant. When he called himself "I AM" they certainly knew what he meant and tried to stone him for calling himself God. I don't think that he tried to "hide" his deity from people as much as he wanted people to realize that he was the Son, and not the Father.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 8, 2009 13:40:12 GMT -5
Oh, you're right, this is John's Gospel, where Jesus doesn't hide the fact that he's God and the Jews catch on right away. But I'm still not tracking, Zorro. Here's the conversation:
Jews: "Hey, you're pretending to be God!" Jesus: "So what? The scripture says we're all judges."
What am I missing here?
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Post by ariandgabe on May 8, 2009 14:08:27 GMT -5
Now these are very simple concepts which teach how God is, and can be, One. So simple children can understand them. When the Son, upon whom the Father had sent the Holy Spirit without measure, giving Him all power in Heaven and on earth prayed to His Father (The same Divine Substance) it was as Son to Father seeking the Father's will, not the will of his human nature. Now what son is NOT the same substance as his father?
Sincerely,
Dennis
Very nice Dennis, but I ask you when have I said that God is not one?
Or that the Son is not of the same substance, as I explained it as Adam and how Eve was taken out of him.
I ask you now: Is Eve great as or equal to Adam? (Same substance, 'flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone') so is Eve equal to Adam or not?
("The two shall become ONE flesh") Is Eve equal to Adam or not?
John 17:22 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:NKJV
Are we going to be God after we become one with Christ or not? (Please use scripture to validate) If no, why? If yes, WOW!
John 17:23 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one,
Again, are we going to be God or not?
and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. NKJV
The Burning Bush (which was a physical manifestation) never said God sent him, WHY?
Why was Jesus so careful as to make everyone be aware that He was not God in the flesh, but that He represented God, His Father who SENT HIM, and yet this Burning Bush dared to say he was GOD. How? Why?
John 17:24-26 24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Whoa there, Jesus You were born about 30 years before you said this and yet you say "you loved me before the foundation of the world" Why?
Is 'The Son' remained as 'The Only Begotten of the Father after He went up to heaven? If so, why? Why can't God just become once again God when He goes back up to heaven and not remain As The Lamb of God?
Are we going to see that man that Ishmael and his mother saw in the desert, and also the Burning Bush when we go up to heaven?
How about 'before' The Son came down? Was He sent, or was He the son to God only after being born to Mary? Oops, he was called Jesus. So who is this 'Son of God' that the Father sent down? Where is HE now?
25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." NKJV
1 Cor 15:56-57 56 Death gets its power to hurt from sin, and sin gets its power from the Law. 57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! TEV
1 Tim 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory KJV
It does not say God came down in the flesh, but that God was manifest, or 'revealed' through Christ. I wonder about this?
Matt 13:11-13 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. NKJV
and most of you also celebrate the pagan holydays, so I just wonder....
In Jesus name
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Post by Zorro on May 8, 2009 14:30:56 GMT -5
DC, The way that reads to me is Jesus is saying "OK, folks you can grasp the fact that God made you judges. That office was given to you from God. (35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came). So why can't you grasp that the Judge sent directly from heaven would not be God?
36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Jesus was trying to explain that the proof was what he actually DID. His actions proved he had the attributes of God.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 8, 2009 15:23:02 GMT -5
Got it Zorro, thanks!
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2009 15:54:47 GMT -5
Ariandgabe, Please, I'm explaining what I believe and why, and do not judge those who believe differently to the very best of my ability.. You explain what you believe and why and by your harsh words judge those who don't believe as you.
For me, there is a vast difference in trying to compare human flesh with the Divine Spirit. For me, the analogy just breaks down too fast and results in a fallacy of logic to my mind that is known as a false comparison. It does not do that for you. What I believe regarding this subject is very simple. So easy even little children can comprehend God as a Divine Spirit. What you explain I find very complex, and NOT easy to follow.
Children can easily learn of a Being far superior to human flesh that while human flesh can often be compared to that Divine Spirit, as the Bible frequently records, The Divine most likely should not be compared to human. Will people continue to do so? Of course. However then their explanations will grow long and convoluted, to my way of thinking.
My posts are not directed at you, save this one. As I attempt to always add the caveat, "This is what I believe and why," you are just as free as anyone else to believe differently. My desire is simply to share the message of my Lord which I have received along with many others who I find have received much the same if not precisely as I have understood. I received it while asking seeking knocking of the Lord and was delighted to find many others who have done so also.
Still others have heard from another, and having ears to hear, they hear, and eyes to see they see, and setting aside intellectual inertia, find understanding. It is my earnest desire to speak and write such words about my God whenever possible. If that is what your message does, then great!!!
Did I not I write you privately in answer to your PM about these things where you condemned the concept of a singular God with a plural existence as coming right from the pits of hell? Did you not fail to reply to that answer to my earnest reply to your question? When you did not, then I began to perceive you would not view any of what I had written to you as being of, or from, the Holy Spirit.
As a result, you have posted your complex beliefs here and why you believe as you do on this subject. Do not I even have the same right? My post has simply been to present an alternative view to yours. I do not accuse you of anything. What you write speaks for itself, even as I wish what I write to do for itself. Do I believe what you have posted about my God is correct? No.
Do I believe in GOD as: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes. How can that be? It can only be if GOD is supreme to mankind, and exists as a singular being, with a plural existence, much as all of us are born composed of body soul and human spirit without redemption. Even in that sense I find us created in God's image.
To my mind, my LORD GOD is not created in our image, nor in any sense "one" as human male and female are one, etc. I repeat, for me that is a false comparison, again if it is not to you, then great, because for you what I believe does come right from the pits of hell and by your posts I perceive you remain convinced of that.
If I perceive the Lord's words correctly, we both will be judged in the last day by the words HE has spoken, not you by mind, nor I by yours. I find support for all I believe in those words of His and simply find no need to list them all here. All can research the topic for themselves, coming to whatever conclusions they might reach. None can do that for another.
All the best,
Dennis
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Post by ronhall on May 8, 2009 18:48:00 GMT -5
This interchange and also the one on the subject of what day was Jesus crucified, reminds me of one of my favorite passages: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phl 2:12 )
I am deeply thankful for those who share their spiritual understanding in a thoughtful manner. For myself, this has been a journey, more than an instant and absolute enlightenment.
When I read or hear of spiritual understanding that differs from my own, I take notice, often putting in on the "back burner" until there is clarity on the issue. Even then, while I may express what is clear to me, I realize I certainly don't have all the answers. So I appreciate those who are patient with my spiritual growing and who continue to share their experiences and understanding thoughtfully in fellowship meetings and even on this forum in a respectful manner.
In those areas I lack understanding I ask, "Was the thief on the cross who was to find himself in paradise clear in his understanding of this issue?" If the answer is unlikely, then I don't worry myself to excess, having faith that if it needs to be revealed to me, it will be, in due time.
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Post by Zorro on May 8, 2009 20:39:46 GMT -5
In those areas I lack understanding I ask, "Was the thief on the cross who was to find himself in paradise clear in his understanding of this issue?" If the answer is unlikely, then I don't worry myself to excess, having faith that if it needs to be revealed to me, it will be, in due time.
Believe it or not, I completely agree with this. I believe there are times in our lives when we will not find what we need in theology and doctrine but in a very simple place....when the answer comes from being overwhelmed with the reality that God is alive and he cares for us as a Father. As we pursue knowledge of scripture, we never want to lose sight of this simple reality.
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Post by ariandgabe on May 9, 2009 13:04:21 GMT -5
This interchange and also the one on the subject of what day was Jesus crucified, reminds me of one of my favorite passages: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phl 2:12 ) I am deeply thankful for those who share their spiritual understanding in a thoughtful manner. For myself, this has been a journey, more than an instant and absolute enlightenment. When I read or hear of spiritual understanding that differs from my own, I take notice, often putting in on the "back burner" until there is clarity on the issue. Even then, while I may express what is clear to me, I realize I certainly don't have all the answers. So I appreciate those who are patient with my spiritual growing and who continue to share their experiences and understanding thoughtfully in fellowship meetings and even on this forum in a respectful manner. In those areas I lack understanding I ask, "Was the thief on the cross who was to find himself in paradise clear in his understanding of this issue?" If the answer is unlikely, then I don't worry myself to excess, having faith that if it needs to be revealed to me, it will be, in due time. Wow, you continue to incourage me, and I love your post. I love your reference to the 'man on the cross' as to your ending statement: If the answer is unlikely, then I don't worry myself to excess, having faith that if it needs to be revealed to me, it will be, in due time.' it shows spiritual maturity and not as one who feels others 'comments' just because they are different 'very different' then theirs, feel that they are being attacked from 'the pits of hell'. Thank you Ron, and God bless you!!!!
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Post by ariandgabe on May 9, 2009 15:56:39 GMT -5
So you are saying that by this doctrine it does NOT claim that Jesus is the Father?That is correct. The doctrine does NOT claim that Jesus is the Father. I am not interested in arguing about the doctrine in the slightest, but I'm perfectly willing to help you understand it, if you'd like. I'm not suggesting that you must agree with it, just that if one wants to argue against it, it's helpful to understand what it is. I've seen many people that mistakenly believe that the Trinity doctrine is what is actually "Modalism"; the belief that God is one, and that he assumes 3 different "modes", sometimes he's the Father, sometimes he's the Son, sometimes he's the Spirit. When someone asks the question "if Jesus was God, who was he praying to" or "why would Jesus pray to himself" that tells me that they have mistaken the Trinity doctrine for Modalism. The Trinity doctrine believes: 1. God is one 3. God is 3 persons - Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit 3. All 3 are equal Now how that can be...I can't tell you. But I can point you to scripture that clearly adds up to this mysterious being that is the triune God. Heb 1.8 is a good place to start. Thank you Zorro for your comment, and of course I agree with you on: "I'm not suggesting that you must agree with it, just that if one wants to argue against it, it's helpful to understand what it is" because it would be very dumb of someone attacking such difficult concept with mediocre or little especially no understanding of it at all. But if I may, with all respect, with all humbleness of heart, ask that: Do you really think I have no idea, or the most, very little concept of the TRINITY by what you read me write? I have studied it from the following sources: New Ungers
International Standard Bible encyclopedia
Nelson's Bible Dictionary
Mclintocks and Strongs Bible Encyclopedia
Naves Topical Bible (does not explain TRINITY, but goes into the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus and explains it that way
Torreys New Topical Textbook - again explains in great detail: Trinity, The.
Doctrine of proved from Scripture
Divine titles applied to the three persons in
Each person in, described as
Eternal.
Holy.
True.
Omnipresent.
Omnipotent.
Omniscient.
Creator.
Sanctifier.
Author of all spiritual operations.
Source of eternal life.
Teacher.
Raising Christ from the dead.
Inspiring the prophets, &c.
Supplying ministers to the Church (from Torrey's New Topical Textbook, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1999 by Biblesoft)and, Eastons Bible Dictionary- brief explanation and of course; You good people here on TMB. Posts that I carefully read. But no one has quoted to me from Scripture supporting the concept except for those same 2-3 places like "my Lord and my God' I have many times refuted just by verses before or after the quotes. As for Heb 1:8-9 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." NKJVI have over and over again pointed out the obvious that the scripture above: "supports the NO TRINITY view TOTALLY. What is this about? Heb 1:5-7 5 The Son Exalted Above Angels
For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son,Today I have begotten You"?Who is talking? To whom? So far, it is all God the Father talking about His Son, and also what Hes Son is saying about His Father; And again, God is saying: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."He (God the Father) brings who? The 'Firstborn' Who is the 'Firstborn'? 'The Only Begotten Son of God' who was with God and was brought down to earth. 7 And of the angels He says: (who, the Son or God the Father) "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." NKJVand now, again: Heb 1:8-98 But of the Son he says, (different versions say; 'to' the Son, 'about' the Son etc.) "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.Here is where Trinitarians take this ONLY verse in the whole chapter and say: 'Now, that is GOD saying to Jesus; Thy throne oh God, ...' and I just can't believe it. How could you take this only verse and think that God would say such a thing to His Son, to call His Son "OH GOD, YOUR THRONE IS FOREVER AND EVER.." Look at the before and then the after verses. (It is God the Father talking about His Son and why He came into the world. There is never, in no way you can find anywhere in Scripture where the 'Father, God, worships the Son and that HE GOD would say to Jesus something like: "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.Also see: Heb 10:5-7 Christ's Death Fulfills God's Will 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come — In the volume of the book it is written of Me — To do Your will, O God.'" NKJVTo do whose will, the Sons or Gods? If that verse is God talking to the Son, (as trinitarians would like to believe) how could He continue to say the following; 9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades." RSV If God just said to the Son: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. then this NEXT verse has to be from God also to the Son, which would switch their identities where now it is Jesus who loved righteousness and anointed God with oil: 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." There is no way you can place that only verse and say that God said to Jesus: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Throughout the whole Bible, EVERYWHERE, God is God, who is also referred to as; "The Father" "For you have only ONE Father who is in heaven", and Jesus, AND the SON gives Him glory and honor. Never does God call Jesus GOD, but man can call Jesus God, for this is why the Son came, to have excess to God through Him.
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Post by Zorro on May 10, 2009 0:38:26 GMT -5
ariandgabe, I'm not trying to be obstinate, but if you've actually read and give honest effort to learn the doctrine from all the resources you mentoned.....and still conclude that the doctrine teaches that Jesus is the Father, then I'm at a loss as to what to say. You appear to be fairly dogmatic about your position, and as I said I have no interest in arguing about it .... so I'll just wish you well.
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Post by ariandgabe on May 12, 2009 15:22:44 GMT -5
ariandgabe, I'm not trying to be obstinate, but if you've actually read and give honest effort to learn the doctrine from all the resources you mentoned.....and still conclude that the doctrine teaches that Jesus is the Father, then I'm at a loss as to what to say. You appear to be fairly dogmatic about your position, and as I said I have no interest in arguing about it .... so I'll just wish you well. Sorry Zoro, for you seem to take me as one crude and harsh as do some others here, as for my dogmatic opinions, how else can I post to refute something without sounding dogmatic? I could say the same about you and others who think my responses are one sided and have a totally different view, but I understand that we are up against principalities, powers of darkness and as we wish it was all this lovy-dubby peace and love ya all, it is not. Read every post and how it sounds when two or three here are showing opposing views. They seem to fight it out, which to me is pleasing because it shows 'life'. It is obvious that you avoid me like the plague, so I will stay clear of responding to your posts no matter how badly I want to join in on it. Just one more thing my friend (for I have nothing against you) If the Son, oops, Jesus Christ is God, because the trinity doc teaches that the three are ONE, only manifested as three to achieve their purpose, then how can Jesus NOT be GOD the Father? For us Christians, God is introduced as 'God the Father' and not just GOD the 'I AM'. in the O.T., God is introduced as 'I Am' and then when He finds some loyal and worthy people He becomes known as Lord to them, actually Lord God. But for us Christians, He is "Father", and where God is mentioned like in "John 3, For God so loved the World that He gave His Only Begotten Son,..." His attributes are obvious that He is a Father whose calling us to be His Children. So, the Trinity Doctrine teaches that Jesus is actually God the Father, for God cannot be separated at any time. He is ONE manifested in three persons, yet ONE in every aspect, shape or form, unless now you are saying that God can be two or three completely different entities? Can God-the Son be ignorant of His own plans and yet still be ONE with His God-self? Matt 24:36, Mark 13:32-33 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. NKJVBut then you already said you do not want to 'argue' about the consept, so if you could just 'teach me', ... how this Trinity D makes it clear that The Son, who is Jesus Christ, who is ONE and the same God- the God who is His Father, sharing the SAME Spirit not be the same? That the doctrine does NOT teach that Jesus is the Father, (because I too agree to that part) that Jesus is NOT God, this one and only God who is the Father of Jesus. Maybe I'm missing something. Thank you ahead of time.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 12, 2009 15:31:12 GMT -5
No, you're not "missing something," ari. This is as silly as the arguments about what Jesus did after his birth. The answer is SO SIMPLE, and it explains every one of the multitude of contradictions in the scripture.
Different authors had different opinions.
Why make something more complicated than it is?
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Post by Brick on May 12, 2009 15:47:50 GMT -5
That is what we do, DC. In fact, that is the foundation of religions. Grab a handful of scriptures, formulate a doctrine out of them, then devise a means to downplay/ignore scriptures that oppose our stated doctrine.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 12, 2009 16:08:23 GMT -5
That is what we do, DC. In fact, that is the foundation of religions. Grab a handful of scriptures, formulate a doctrine out of them, then devise a means to downplay/ignore scriptures that oppose our stated doctrine. Ah. ok, I'll crawl back under the covers, and let everybody continue their religious arguments. Maybe, soon, somebody will start calling somebody else's religion a cult so I can get all excited again.
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Post by Child of God on May 13, 2009 0:15:42 GMT -5
That is what we do, DC. In fact, that is the foundation of religions. Grab a handful of scriptures, formulate a doctrine out of them, then devise a means to downplay/ignore scriptures that oppose our stated doctrine. Ah. ok, I'll crawl back under the covers, and let everybody continue their religious arguments. Maybe, soon, somebody will start calling somebody else's religion a cult so I can get all excited again. dc... you are funny... thanks for the little chuckle on this thread.... everyone is so serious.... I am beginning to think those who do the most accusing are the ones really involved in what they are accusing others of....
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Post by Zorro on May 13, 2009 0:25:42 GMT -5
Maybe I'm missing something.
But you don't really think so, correct?
BTW, I don't avoid you like the plague. You obviously don't understand the doctrine and you don't want to. Pretty simple. I have no problems discussing the doctrine with people of opposing views. I believe this thread alone bears witness to two civil conversations I had with "what" and "dietcoke". You say maybe you're "missing something", but your posts reveal no inclination to find out what it might be. Instead you seem to want to argue, which I have no interest in. That's all.
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Post by fred on May 13, 2009 0:41:02 GMT -5
But Zorro, I think you are missing something. You see, "us christians" can trump you heathens any time of day without a reason, the logic being that because we are "us christians" our thinking does not contain any error.
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Post by Zorro on May 13, 2009 0:49:59 GMT -5
But Zorro, I think you are missing something. You see, "us christians" can trump you heathens any time of day without a reason, the logic being that because we are "us christians" our thinking does not contain any error. You're right. I did miss that
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Post by ariandgabe on May 19, 2009 13:28:42 GMT -5
Ariandgabe, Please, I'm explaining what I believe and why, and do not judge those who believe differently to the very best of my ability.. You explain what you believe and why and by your harsh words judge those who don't believe as you.
I am so sorry Mr. Jacobson, that you think I am harsh and judgmental, and reading some of my posts, I agree that I sound harsh at times.
For me, there is a vast difference in trying to compare human flesh with the Divine Spirit. For me, the analogy just breaks down too fast and results in a fallacy of logic to my mind that is known as a false comparison.
You mean my comparison of Adam and Eve to Jesus and His Father? I understand you think it is a harsh comparison for I too used to think that way. That is how we were taught in our meetings.
But listen and just think about it for a second, but please don’t take it offensively my friend. Remember that we were taught that we were better then any other denomination, right? And yet we thought nothing of it.
We were taught that we are never to argue with the Elders, and that we must hold them to a very high standard because they were double-blessed. The Workers were ‘chosen by Christ Himself’, so who were we to question their authority?
I remember shaking every time I addressed an important issue with the Ministers or Elders of the Church, and they used it to their advantage, especially when they could not answer my questions. I’m sure you went through the same thing, as so many others here have.
But look at this, this very mention of TMB is a slap in their face, and now even you think nothing of it. Just the reference to TMB was enough to make their blood boil, why?
If they were serving the Lord, and trusted whom they served, they would be unmovable. We all know the TRUTH will always overcome or win over lies. So why were they or why are they so angry at this and other sights that describe them and their beliefs? They should of say; Come one come all, for we stand on the Rock which is The Word of God and no one, no internet sight can shake that. But we know why they hate it; it is because most of it is the truth revealing their fallacy and their twisted attempts to make themselves more then what they were. It removes their sheepskin and reveals their true identity.
But this has carried over to us, for we have been brainwashed to think that we are not allowed to question them, so how could we even think about questioning GOD? How could we ‘dare’ to compare something like GOD to a mere dust, which man is? Who are we to make such degrading comparisons?
But if you look a little closer, you will see who was the first to make this comparison;
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. NKJV
So you see my friend, it is not I, but the Lord Himself compared the ‘human flesh with His Divine Spirit’. You and I know God is a Spirit, and it was HE that made this comparison, and then on top of that He said that He shall live with them and be not only their God, but Father as well. How can mere dust, this flesh be children to the Unnamable, Almighty God?
1 Cor 15:42-44 42 This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal. 43 When buried, it is ugly and weak; when raised, it will be beautiful and strong. 44 When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body.TEV
This is what the Lawyers, the Pharisees did not want anyone to do either, to compare mere ‘flesh’ with the Almighty, the Great God of the universe that they had in their pocket for themselves. They used God to ‘burden the people, to scare them into submission to a point where they had ultimate power over them.
But when Jesus came, He reminded them of the Scriptures where their own prophets called men gods, like (as was Aaron to Moses). But what really made them mad, what took God out of their pockets and into the hands of the common folk like Sheppard’s, fisherman and simple ones like me, was when Jesus proclaimed that He was the ‘Son of God’!
‘How’, they asked, could this man that they knew well, they knew His mother, father, brothers and sisters, and yet He claims His Father is God Himself. “How dare He?” they screamed, “kill him, kill him, we’re loosing our power, no one will hold us in high esteem anymore if we let this carpenters Son convince the people of this, .. this, blasphemy!!!
And what if we looked at the story about Jacob? Now this is hard even for me to compare, since I already dared to make man in Gods image, that how could God in the flesh wrestle with a man made of dust?
Gen 32:24-27 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks." But he said, "I will not let You go unless You bless me!" 27 So He said to him, "What is your name?" He said, "Jacob." NKJV
But not only wrestle but WIN? God ‘gave up’ and said; “26 And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks."”
Another words: ‘O.K., o.k., I give, what do you want?’
Gen 32:29-30 29 Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray." And He said, "Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." NKJV
So see for yourself if that is OK or not. It did take me a long time to think this way, and God has revealed so many things to me that if I told you all, I am sure you would be deeply offended.
It does not do that for you. What I believe regarding this subject is very simple. So easy even little children can comprehend God as a Divine Spirit. What you explain I find very complex, and NOT easy to follow.
Yes my dear friend, we definitely DO NOT see eye to eye, and on this very topic of the Trinity Concept, we see it completely opposite. As what you seem to understand of this topic as simple, I see it as VERY complicated and deceiving, and what you find ‘complex’, I find that easy as just simply reading the Bible. I find NO NEED for this concept, and I believe I hinted on why above and in other posts.
IS it wrong for me to point out that God wants us to compare this physical realm HE created to His un-comprehendible domain? That it was HE who said “Let’s make man in OUR image” which was this man, made of dust to represent God in His Spiritual image?
I thought to leave it be, I know someone will always be offended when their ‘beliefs’ are tested, but I thought you would not take it the wrong way. I know I was not talking to a young convert, so I took the liberty to address an important issue with a mature and Biblically learned individual, and as you make your stand on what you believe, I took that same freedom to do the same.
Children can easily learn of a Being far superior to human flesh that while human flesh can often be compared to that Divine Spirit, as the Bible frequently records, The Divine most likely should not be compared to human. Will people continue to do so? Of course. However then their explanations will grow long and convoluted, to my way of thinking.
My posts are not directed at you, save this one. As I attempt to always add the caveat, "This is what I believe and why," you are just as free as anyone else to believe differently. My desire is simply to share the message of my Lord which I have received along with many others who I find have received much the same if not precisely as I have understood. I received it while asking seeking knocking of the Lord and was delighted to find many others who have done so also.
Still others have heard from another, and having ears to hear, they hear, and eyes to see they see, and setting aside intellectual inertia, find understanding. It is my earnest desire to speak and write such words about my God whenever possible. If that is what your message does, then great!!!
Did I not I write you privately in answer to your PM about these things where you condemned the concept of a singular God with a plural existence as coming right from the pits of hell? Did you not fail to reply to that answer to my earnest reply to your question? When you did not, then I began to perceive you would not view any of what I had written to you as being of, or from, the Holy Spirit.
I have addressed many, many times in the past those references you pointed out to me, and they ALL back up my view of NO TRINITY consept.
As a result, you have posted your complex beliefs here and why you believe as you do on this subject. Do not I even have the same right?
By all means you do and have done so without me telling you that you could not do so. Please point out where I said otherwise.
My post has simply been to present an alternative view to yours. I do not accuse you of anything. What you write speaks for itself, even as I wish what I write to do for itself. Do I believe what you have posted about my God is correct? No.
Do I believe in GOD as: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes. How can that be? It can only be if GOD is supreme to mankind, and exists as a singular being, with a plural existence, much as all of us are born composed of body soul and human spirit without redemption. Even in that sense I find us created in God's image.
O.K. you lost me there. I keep telling you I’m not that intelligent.
To my mind, my LORD GOD is not created in our image, nor in any sense "one" as human male and female are one, etc. I repeat, for me that is a false comparison, again if it is not to you, then great, because for you what I believe does come right from the pits of hell and by your posts I perceive you remain convinced of that.
Well, all I can say about your comment: “To my mind, my LORD GOD is not created in our image, nor in any sense "one" as human male and female are one,” is that you take it up with HIM;
Gen 1:26-28 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. NKJV
If I perceive the Lord's words correctly, we both will be judged in the last day by the words HE has spoken, not you by mind, nor I by yours. I find support for all I believe in those words of His and simply find no need to list them all here. All can research the topic for themselves, coming to whatever conclusions they might reach. None can do that for another.
All the best,
Dennis
Likewise my dear friend Mr. Jacobsen, only God can reveal His will to us and open our eyes to secrets that He hid from us so we could seek and search them out. I see it pleases Him to do that, this is how He sees the character of His chosen, the ones He will through His Son call 'children'. I pray for everyone here to keep on seeking, as I too keep on doing so untill I too can say:
2 Tim 4:7-8 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. KJV
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 19, 2009 14:57:13 GMT -5
O.K. you lost me there. I keep telling you I’m not that intelligent. This is how I feel, too, ari! I have tried and tried, read books, asked people on here, I simply cannot wrap my head around the concept, and can't even figure out what other people believe. At this point, I think most Trinity-believers point to those scriptures that hint at the Trinity, but accept it as an unexplainable mystery.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 19, 2009 15:07:45 GMT -5
The biggest complaint the non-Trinitarians have is the places where Jesus and God interact. Jesus prays to God, sits beside God, claims that only God is good, etc. But these pictures come from the Synoptics, whereas most of our Trinitarian language comes from Johannine writings. If you read John carefully, Jesus never prays except once, which he does aloud for the benefit of the disciples. Whenever there is any interaction between Jesus and "God", John carefully uses the word "Father," instead.
I think we may have to split the bible in half. Give half to the Trinitarians, half to the non-Trinitarians.
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Post by ariandgabe on May 19, 2009 15:42:16 GMT -5
The biggest complaint the non-Trinitarians have is the places where Jesus and God interact. Jesus prays to God, sits beside God, claims that only God is good, etc. But these pictures come from the Synoptics, whereas most of our Trinitarian language comes from Johannine writings. If you read John carefully, Jesus never prays except once, which he does aloud for the benefit of the disciples. Whenever there is any interaction between Jesus and "God", John carefully uses the word "Father," instead. I think we may have to split the bible in half. Give half to the Trinitarians, half to the non-Trinitarians. Half? Don't you think its too much? Show me one scripture where Jesus is said to be GOD. Not 'one' with Him, but God, the (let's say) source of the Father? God IS the source of the Father isn't He? Or is that believed by the doctrine just as a manifestation? Because if it is, then how are we ever going to be 'Children of God'? If 'The Father' is just a reference, and is NOT God (as Zorro pointed out) then whose children are we going to be? The Fathers? Children-Father, ... yes, I can see that, but then how does being the 'Children of God' fit in all this? You see what I mean? The trinity just 'cuts' God up in too many pieces where He is questionable of His might at times. My way, God remains the source of all, the Holy Spirit is God manifesting Himself in different works, and the Son remains the 'Only Begotten of God' who was sent to earth and was born of Mary, was crucified and returned to Heaven to take His now 'higher' place with His Father who is GOD. What is so hard about that? God Himself said for us to worship The Son, for who worships the Son shows that they can comprehend to worship the Father. For because NO ONE seen the Father, it is easier for the created, on this journey to become spiritual to understand and (sort of) see the Father. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father", but this goes also with: "If you have seen a good Christian, who is filled with the Holy Spirit, you have seen the Father also". For "I am in you!" God said.
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