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Post by buzzybee on Apr 10, 2009 14:21:51 GMT -5
Sometimes when i listen to churches talk about the Trinity i am so confused I could (as someone else has already said) go eat a whole box of oreos. Plus a huge glass a milk to wash it all down.
Here's how i see it. God is a Spirit. Spirits have different physical properties than us more solid Humans. I feel that it's God's Spirit that made them one. Such as Jesus was maybe a separate entity than God, but since he was so full of Gods Spirit it was like they were one......and yet it didn't make him equal with God, he still new his place. Maybe it's the same with the Holy Spirit.
Now Humans are a bit different because we sin and God hates sin. However, we can become one through Christs atoning blood. This doesn't in essence put us on a direct link with God, like Jesus and and Holy Spirit had because of our sin. But we can feel a sort of watered down version through Christ. Maybe watered down is a poor word to use. Maybe the measure we feel is smaller because we aren't as connected as they were.
How does everyone else feel about this. Scripture is always good to compare with, but i would like candid comments please.
BB
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 10, 2009 15:10:05 GMT -5
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
I like your analogy buzz, but raise the bar a bit more: God is not A spirit, no more than he is A love, A light, or A truth. God IS spirit.
The Trinity is a crutch for those who try desperately to box God up into one or more literal beings with boundaries.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 10, 2009 15:20:15 GMT -5
The Trinity is a crutch for those who try desperately to box God up into one or more literal beings with boundariesThat's why you see most Christians using crutches I guess. How do you feel that believing in the Trinity limits God/Jesus/Holy Spirit? If anything, I think it takes boundaries away from what the Holy Spirit and Jesus are capable of. Personally, while I believe in the Trinity I also don't dwell on it. I also know that air is needed to breathe, but don't think much about it either. (unless someone in my general area has cut the cheese or something of the sort....) Scott
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 10, 2009 15:52:11 GMT -5
I'm with you Scott! I just feel we are belittling God to describe Him in time or space, as "a" anything...even a father, or a son, or a holy ghost. That conjures up images of a spirit floating around. It might help us to grasp His greatness by personifying "Love" or "Light" or "Wisdom" or "Truth" or any of the other boundless descriptions for God, but it does Him no justic.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 10, 2009 18:25:12 GMT -5
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.I like your analogy buzz, but raise the bar a bit more: God is not A spirit, no more than he is A love, A light, or A truth. God IS spirit. The Trinity is a crutch for those who try desperately to box God up into one or more literal beings with boundaries. I like your thoughts dietcoke.
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Post by buzzybee on Apr 10, 2009 19:47:49 GMT -5
I like where your coming from DC. But i think that there are alot of things that we do not know about the Spirit realm. Same thing with the Angelic realm. I do think we put limits on God because of our limited thinking. It's kind of like the more you know, the more you know you don't know..... (i hope that makes bert's quotes).
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Post by Brick on Apr 10, 2009 20:03:41 GMT -5
I'm kind of where DC is on this. How can you know the unknowable? But that is what the trinitarians seem to want to do: dissect a deity. Good luck with that. If I was a god, I'd be pissed.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 10, 2009 21:03:15 GMT -5
I think of "spirit" more like "attitude"....it's attitude that brings about the giving out and the receiving of anything, isn't it. For example, if my attitude is negative, then most likely anything I give out will be negative as well as anything I receive will obtain a negative interpretation. So to think about the Holy Spirit as being "pure", as Jesus is "pure" and God certainly is "pure" then what either of the trinity gives out is "pure" because of the "attitude" or the "spirit". To have God's spirit working in us, enables us to deal with and in life more "pure", more "positive", more "constructively" instead of "destructively"...JMO
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Post by buzzybee on Apr 10, 2009 21:33:01 GMT -5
I do not see the trinity as setting boundries, i see it more for a creating of oneness. Its something i would like to learn about. Not necessarily the trinity per say, but how the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are connected and why God even needed to use them. But even more importantly what he was trying to teach of by choosing the means that he did to bring us his Gospel, our comforter etc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 3:40:58 GMT -5
The trinity according to Bert...
Father = Moninity Father and the Son = Biinity Father, Son and Holy Ghost = Trinity 1 Spirit, Water, and the Blood = Trinity 2 Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost = Trinity 3 The spirit and soul and body = Trinity 4 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob = Trinity 5 Father, Son, Holy Ghost and The Word = Quadinity Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word and the Blood = Pentinity Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Blood and the Water = Hexinity Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Blood, the Water and God's servants = Heptatinity Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Blood, the Water, God’s servants and the disciples = Octoinity
... these are all scriptural, and equally valid.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 5:13:37 GMT -5
The real "Biinity."
The ministry without a home and the church in the home. From these we must NOT depart. They are the body and blood of Christ. (Jack Carroll).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 7:35:27 GMT -5
the new biinity, when the apostles and disciples were safely out of the way :- 1 - church 2 - priest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 8:02:09 GMT -5
I'm also with DC in those views. Mankind has been creating God in his own image for a long time. The dimension in which God exists is probably beyond describablility because of the dimension in which we exist.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 11, 2009 9:10:31 GMT -5
I think we all put God in a box so to speak. There is the 'group box' that the church teaches us he is in, and then there is our 'personal box' where we place him. That one would be our individual relationship and belief about God. I think the first box probably is wrong, but I think the second is fine. It is about our individual relationship with Jesus/God, and that is where we need to place our focus. Because we all have our individual gifts to bring to the Church (body of Christ which spans all denominations) I believe that God will speak to each of us individually and we all respond to His voice differently and individually. That is a good thing! Like I said before, I believe in the Trinity, but don't think that it is something which needs to be dwelt on or agonized over. We just need to focus on our individual relationship with Jesus/God. The problems I see are when we try to analyze how the Holy Spirit is working in other peoples lives that cause the most issues between fellow Christians. Who am I to try and tell someone else that 'my way' is correct and theirs is wrong? Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 11, 2009 9:18:32 GMT -5
Ha!!! I added the Holy Spirit in this line: The problems I see are when we try to analyze how the Holy Spirit is working in other peoples lives that cause the most issues between fellow Christians. But thanks for pointing that out! (of course since I think they are all 'one' Just mentioning one means all of them...) Ha!! Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 9:30:49 GMT -5
People say they view the Father and Son as one "in spirit." Well, of course! Is "God"not a singular Spirit?
Is there anyone else posting here who perceives God a singular substance (Spirit) with a plural existence? (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, love, light, indwelling believers, and so on.) Seems simple enough to me. However, I accept that such a conception can be as a great mystery for those who cannot perceive and thus accept God as anything, much less a "Spirit."
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2009 11:05:51 GMT -5
I saw an interesting quote in the Globe this week that bears on some of the things posted in this thread: "Christianity is not an intellectual system, a collection of dogmas, or a moralism [but] instead an encounter, a love story ... an event, (Globe and Mail, 4/8/09)" Guess who said that? It might surprise you to know those words were written by Pope Benedict. With respect to the Trinity, I found and like this web page: skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/jesus_god.htmlI suppose as the page is called the "Skeptics Bible" the person is trying to undermine Scripture by pointing up contradictory verses. Personally, I find wherever there are apparent contradictions in the Bible there is also much food for thought. The early Christians fought for 200 years about the issue of the Trinity. The question was not whether or not Jesus was God, as almost all parties agreed that was the case. The question was largely whether Jesus came out of God, or was with God from the beginning back in Eternity. There's a good overview of the whole debate here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism. I think I tend towards a form of Arianism myself, but I'd have to read up again to confirm it. Do I think it really matters? No. However, the concept of the Trinity is used as a differentiator by mainstream churches to marginalize groups such as ours; you can see attempts at this on the TMB on occasion, and on web sites like VOT.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 11, 2009 11:11:15 GMT -5
Interesting Dennis, I've been wondering if "family" trumps "trinity", if "trinity" puts the Spirit in a box it's not confined to. In John 17 Jesus prayed that "all who believe on me through their word" would be "one like we are one" - like you say a family of "indwelling believers" , sons and daughters of God, all bound as one with the same spirit that binds God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost as one.
Bert, is family another "unity" for your list??
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Post by ilylo on Apr 11, 2009 11:14:04 GMT -5
However, the concept of the Trinity is used as a differentiator by mainstream churches to marginalize groups such as ours; you can see attempts at this on the TMB on occasion, and on web sites like VOT. Interesting that you hold others accountable for the shortcomings of the 2x2 church.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2009 11:18:53 GMT -5
However, the concept of the Trinity is used as a differentiator by mainstream churches to marginalize groups such as ours; you can see attempts at this on the TMB on occasion, and on web sites like VOT. Interesting that you hold others accountable for the shortcomings of the 2x2 church. I'm not making any excuses for our shortcomings. But neither is every single criticism valid.
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Post by ilylo on Apr 11, 2009 11:22:11 GMT -5
Like much of what the 2x2 church claims about itself.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 11, 2009 11:29:40 GMT -5
I think we all put God in a box so to speak. There is the 'group box' that the church teaches us he is in, and then there is our 'personal box' where we place him. That one would be our individual relationship and belief about God. I think the first box probably is wrong, but I think the second is fine. It is about our individual relationship with Jesus/God, and that is where we need to place our focus. Because we all have our individual gifts to bring to the Church (body of Christ which spans all denominations) I believe that God will speak to each of us individually and we all respond to His voice differently and individually. That is a good thing! Like I said before, I believe in the Trinity, but don't think that it is something which needs to be dwelt on or agonized over. We just need to focus on our individual relationship with Jesus/God. The problems I see are when we try to analyze how the Holy Spirit is working in other peoples lives that cause the most issues between fellow Christians. Who am I to try and tell someone else that 'my way' is correct and theirs is wrong? Scott Scott, I saw a picture this morning with this phrase printed on it and it spoke to me very kindly...."God loves us like we are the only person on the earth." Now I think it's hard to comprehend such a love, you know....because we as humans "love" many and we often "scatter" our love to cover all of those we love. However the love that is "new" in a 2 person relationship is perhaps the closest we can begin to know the love of God! I'm particularly speaking about the love we have for our "mate"......JMO
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2009 11:30:10 GMT -5
People say they view the Father and Son as one "in spirit." Well, of course! Is "God"not a singular Spirit?
Is there anyone else posting here who perceives God a singular substance (Spirit) with a plural existence? (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, love, light, indwelling believers, and so on.) Seems simple enough to me. However, I accept that such a conception can be as a great mystery for those who cannot perceive and thus accept God as anything, much less a "Spirit." You read of God speaking to Moses in a cloud, and his voice in the thunder. Also that no man has seen God at any time. Where does God end and his creation begin? Is God of one substance and his creation of another? I suppose the difference is that one is incorruptible and the other is not. So then you have those things which are of God, but project into his Creation. Like his Son, his voice in the cloud, his Spirit, and so on. Are these also creations of a sort, but incorruptible ones? Unfortunately, no one has yet been able to come up with a set of experiments by which we can determine the ways in which God works.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2009 11:36:59 GMT -5
Like much of what the 2x2 church claims about itself. We're both free to evaluate and accept or reject whatever claims we wish.
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Post by ilylo on Apr 11, 2009 11:47:58 GMT -5
Yes, I've heard that line many times from those willing to give 2x2ism a free pass regarding the invalid claims it makes about itself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 13:03:53 GMT -5
Perhaps you have put it better than I did, Jesse, but you certainly expressed what I intended. God undoubtedly is found in the Basic Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and They in Him: I've no problem with that. This is why when people ask me if I believe in those three as one, I say, "yes, and more!"
Like expressed, though, His Being, as A Spirit also reveals Himself in many ways, Light; Love; (and as "What" expressed) Word; the singular Fruit of the Spirit consisting of: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, belief, meekness (which is not weakness as we've so often heard), & temperance; truth; and a host of other descriptions of His Spirit as can be found, including those as being "one" in whom He dwells.
Sad to me, when anyone tries to limit that wonderful Spirit Being. [/color]
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Post by buzzybee on Apr 11, 2009 16:14:34 GMT -5
Thanks all for your posts. One of the main reasons i ask is that in order to become a member of certain churches you get the doctrine serman. Most of them say you must believe in the Trinity.
Maybe i could say that what i learned is when i try to understand what the trinity is i limit God, because our human mind is not capable of understanding this...
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Post by Sharon on Apr 11, 2009 18:10:56 GMT -5
Thanks all for your posts. One of the main reasons i ask is that in order to become a member of certain churches you get the doctrine serman. Most of them say you must believe in the Trinity. Maybe i could say that what i learned is when i try to understand what the trinity is i limit God, because our human mind is not capable of understanding this... I think as you meditate more about God's creation and His plan of salvation, it will come to you in piecemeal understanding....God gives us understanding as He sees we're able to understand and live with it. I can understand anyone being hesitant to join a church just because they push the "trinity"....that says to me that they're not looking at "babes" in believing....Paul wrote about those who were babes who still needed the "milk of the word". So to force someone to say they understand and they don't isn't very good in my books! It isn't serving the individual well! JMO
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