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Post by Zorro on Jul 2, 2009 0:36:33 GMT -5
Nathan says: The 11 apostles were not married. The Bible says: Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Kiwi says: It still does not prove that they were married at all.This exchange reminds me of the gospel mtg where a worker quotes the verse where Jesus tells John to take Mary into his home and says "of course we know John didn't have a home". Who said John didn't have a home? A worker. He has a name, but I don't feel compelled to reveal it on a message board. It's doubtful you'd know him anyway, so what difference does it make?
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 0:40:12 GMT -5
Did you work it out, or do you need more info? No, I'm still working on it. So, I'll cross off naivety. Whew.... thanks, that was the one I was worried about. Nope, old enough to be married with kids (another one on the way)... yeah yeah I know what you are thinking... I'll grow up soon enough. Why do people say this sort of stuff and never quote me so that I have a clue what you are on about? No. What makes people keep saying this? On VOT they were convinced I was a worker, in fact a senior worker, and to this day I'm not sure that I was able to convince them otherwise.
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Post by JO on Jul 2, 2009 1:36:09 GMT -5
~~ Marriage is not forbidden for workers. Many workers got married and some became conventions owners, some had Sunday morning meetings in their homes.
Sometimes we have two workers fall in love and they get married. I was a worker and I got married. For myself I wouldn't want to be married workers couple in the work.
A worker's life is already stressful as it is so why would I want to ADD more STRESS with a wife and children in the work. For me, Thanks! but no thanks.
But If some feel VERY strongly that God has called them to be married workers couples in the work ... let them go in the work.
We had quite a few married workers couples for almost 100 yrs. in USA and others countries. All workers are forbidden to marry but ex-workers are allowed to marry. All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel.
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Post by kiwi on Jul 2, 2009 1:40:35 GMT -5
~~ Marriage is not forbidden for workers. Many workers got married and some became conventions owners, some had Sunday morning meetings in their homes.
Sometimes we have two workers fall in love and they get married. I was a worker and I got married. For myself I wouldn't want to be married workers couple in the work.
A worker's life is already stressful as it is so why would I want to ADD more STRESS with a wife and children in the work. For me, Thanks! but no thanks.
But If some feel VERY strongly that God has called them to be married workers couples in the work ... let them go in the work.
We had quite a few married workers couples for almost 100 yrs. in USA and others countries. All workers are forbidden to marry but ex-workers are allowed to marry. All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel. Who has forbidden them? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel?
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Post by JO on Jul 2, 2009 2:25:02 GMT -5
All workers are forbidden to marry but ex-workers are allowed to marry. All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel. Who has forbidden them? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel? Ask the overseer if workers on his staff would be allowed to marry and remain on his staff. Ask the overseer if he would mind some of the friends hiring a hall and holding gospel meetings.
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Post by kiwi on Jul 2, 2009 4:34:09 GMT -5
Who has forbidden them? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel? Ask the overseer if workers on his staff would be allowed to marry and remain on his staff. Ask the overseer if he would mind some of the friends hiring a hall and holding gospel meetings. Come on now be a good chap and see if you could answer my questions?
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Post by JO on Jul 2, 2009 5:35:56 GMT -5
All workers are forbidden to marry but ex-workers are allowed to marry. All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel. Who has forbidden them? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel? Who has forbidden them?I know of no overseer who would allow his staff to marry and remain on the staff. Do you? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel?In my experience workers tend to be jealous of their position. They freak out when friends invite outsiders home for a bible study. Can you imagine what would happen if married believers hired a hall and preached the gospel publicly?
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 7:07:29 GMT -5
The one's without wives possibly all those who wives where not shown for. How many had wives/were married? You build a doctrine around "possibly" JO, nobody has even built a doctrine about this. If you have it, I would be interested to see it but either way, it is a fake. Here's what I have previously said about this... Hey, someguy, please read what I have said. I didn't say that the ministry MUST be homeless or MUST go 2x2, so it doesn't punch holes in any argument. How many times do I see people on here making wild assumptions about what is said, and I can see why people completely misinterpret what the preachers say sometmes, and then try to quote what they have said but get it comletely wrong and then they go telling others and writing books about how wrong the workers are, when it has just been their own inablity to understand basic language. All I was saying is that it doesn't surprise me that God is still sending out a homeless ministry. That doesn't mean that is all he sends. I know some of his group who have been married and gone on a mission and even bought a house in the country they went to minister, and those who even got jobs, and those who went in three's. And I bet that you know this too because it has been mentioned on this board often enough, but you try to pretend it didn't happen and that there is some sort of rule that it MUST be 2x2 and they MUST not be married and they MUST not have a permanant residence etc. This is not the case, so I really don't know how people can honestly argue that there IS a rule that says these things.
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Post by sharon on Jul 2, 2009 7:20:36 GMT -5
"The true history of the church that we should profess to belong to, is over 2000 years old. Somehow though, it is assumed that the workers are preaching some other church and some other way. There are a growing number of people here that do not appear to understand basic language and seem to not understand that the way that the workers are preaching is directly from the bible, a message that is over 2000 years old. If someone is feeling lied to because they thought that belonging to this group was a guarantee of salvation then that is sad, and I guess nothing is lost if they do leave the group if they were never going to understand what way is being spoken of, and who it is whereby we have hope of salvation. None if this has anything to do with events around the 1900’s."
The "church" we should be a part of is the "body of Christ"....it has nothing to do with a 2 tiered system called the 2X2's, the truth's fellowship NOR does it have anything to do with Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Adventists, Mormons, etc.
HOWEVER, for some reason many people think "belonging" to a "society" of people that make up some sect of religion is what enables them to get to heaven. VERY FEW people really understand SALVATION BY GRACE....they do not understand the full gift that Jesus has bought for mankind by His death on the cross and His resurrection. Oh yes, we say we know....but it has to do with "feeling" it to really know what it is all about. There is joy to be found within understanding it, in believing in the fullness of God's grace. I don't understand it or feel it as I want to feel it. It is almost impossible to explain to people the greatness of God's love in this gift of life Jesus has brought for us!
Todd, just because you have YOUR eyes on Jesus Christ and not the workers or the ministry or the mtgs. in the homes doesn't mean that there aren't and haven't been a considerable number of people that have! And that are the ones who find it the most distressful and the most hurtful when they wake up and realize that they've been led by their nose in the wrong direction.
As to workers preaching? I know there are some today who say that NO ONE can be saved EXCEPT they hear the gospel preached by Workers and profess through a WORKER! That is still going on! Believe it or not!
What that does, IMI, resigns all people BEFORE 1897 and those who have never had the opportunity of workers being in their midst to hell and that will never do......We are not to do that....HOW DARE WE JUDGE ANOTHER MAN'S SERVANT? How dare we!
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 7:41:31 GMT -5
Yes, I am saying that the good news story mentions other's names. I mean, I think it is good news for us that Jesus died on the cross, and could say "forgive them", but the last time I read that story it gave me a few details about the situation including the mention of a few of people that were there, and quite frankly, I'm glad that these things were mentioned because this event wouldn't have made half as much sense if these things weren't mentioned. You haven't been talking to gray from VOT by any chance have you? He tried to tell me that the entire Gospel is contained in 1 Cor 15:v3&4. In other places I saw where he said it was 1 Cor 15:1 - 4, and then when questioned he expanded it to say that it was 1 Cor 15:1-8. But v1-8 might not suit you if you don't think other people can be mentioned. Anyway, I will ask the questions again in hope that you will answer this time... Do you mean that the Gospel is more than Jesus but only Jesus... is that what you are saying? Can you tell me the extent of what you think the Gospel is? You say that it is only abut Jesus, but Jesus had some interactions with other men, so are you saying that this can't be mentioned because it is not only about Jesus and Him alone? In your version of the Gospel, can any other people's names be mentioned at all? Someguy was quite clear. The first four books of the NT are called the gospels. No he wasn't. I was trying to get him to explain the extent of his Gospel he was talking about but he wouldn't. All he kept doing is going on about the 4 books called the Gospels as you have done and not explain the Gospel that he was talking about. Which time was he correct? He changed his mind 3 times. Ok, so are you going to tell me what verses of 1 Cor 15 are the Gospel? You would know that these verses you mentioned below, which Paul was calling the Gospel includes people other than Jesus. Ok, I realise that the core is about Jesus' death and resurrection but there is a whole lot more that gives it some meaning. I find it hard to believe that people going to be inspired by workers preaching just v3 & 4 or 1 Cor 15. People will hear that Jesus died for our sins and they will think, "Oh poor fella... I knew I shouldn't have sinned... anyway maybe he wasn't a very nice person". And then they will hear that he was raised from the dead and they will think, "Whew, now I don't feel half as bad... I hope he gets on ok from now on". Anyway, I would love for you to tell me what you think the Gospel is, and especially which verses from 1 Cor 15. ...3 & 4? ...1 - 4? ...1 - 8?
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Post by ilylo on Jul 2, 2009 7:44:09 GMT -5
todd's mockery puts bert's mockery to shame.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 2, 2009 8:22:55 GMT -5
Yes Ilylo, I'm afraid there are limits to even my patience.
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 8:25:31 GMT -5
"The true history of the church that we should profess to belong to, is over 2000 years old. Somehow though, it is assumed that the workers are preaching some other church and some other way. There are a growing number of people here that do not appear to understand basic language and seem to not understand that the way that the workers are preaching is directly from the bible, a message that is over 2000 years old. If someone is feeling lied to because they thought that belonging to this group was a guarantee of salvation then that is sad, and I guess nothing is lost if they do leave the group if they were never going to understand what way is being spoken of, and who it is whereby we have hope of salvation. None if this has anything to do with events around the 1900’s." The "church" we should be a part of is the "body of Christ"....it has nothing to do with a 2 tiered system called the 2X2's, the truth's fellowship NOR does it have anything to do with Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Adventists, Mormons, etc. And Sharon I am sure that you have no part in any system call the 2x2s because there is no such thing. It is possible to become a Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Adventist, Mormon, etc. because these are real thing that people can profess to be, but I certainly aren't going to bother doing that myself, because as you would know, none of that is going to help our salvation. Best if recognise our individuality regarding salvation. And this is the very reason that I will not get membership in one of the religions. I belong to God and that is enough. Yes, few there be that find it. It is a strait and narrow way. Yes, it happened to the disciples and naturally it is going to happen today, but there is nothing wrong with following the teachings of the preachers if they are following Jesus. There are many beautiful workers with a pure spirit and if only we all lived to that standard the world would be a good place. What do you mean by "led in the wrong direction"? Have you got evidence that it is possible to be saved without a worker? Here's what my bible says about it 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! To me that sounds as though the only way to hear about this is through a preacher, and I haven't really looked at it in great depth to be convinced one way or another, but I sure would love to see your evidence that suggests that you don't need a preacher... especially seeing you seem to be refuting those that say, "you need to hear us to be saved" as though they are lying. My bible suggests that they aren't. Are you aware that preachers were being sent out thousands of years ago? OK OK I know... I am going to get accused of double speak, or whatever you want to call it, for my responses above, but you are pretending that there is such a thing as 2x2 and then you can pretend other things such as when the workers talk about the only way that they really meant 2x2 (even though they were talking about Jesus' way). The truth is that no such thing as 2x2 exists and when you understand that, you will realise that the workers have only ever told you the truth. Just one simple request... if anybody is going to say that this is double speak or something else (and I don't mind if you do), could you please quote the double speak so I know what you are talking about, or what it is that I said wrong.
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 8:30:42 GMT -5
todd's mockery puts bert's mockery to shame. Hooray for the Aussies!!! BTW, do you have any idea what William Irvine did that they call him "founder".
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 8:34:26 GMT -5
Yes Ilylo, I'm afraid there are limits to even my patience. It may be much better for your health and wellbeing if you just put me on "ignore".
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Post by ilylo on Jul 2, 2009 8:56:55 GMT -5
BTW, do you have any idea what William Irvine did that they call him "founder". Yes. It may be much better for your health and wellbeing if you just put me on "ignore". In a manner of speaking, you already are.
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Post by Geoff on Jul 2, 2009 9:15:33 GMT -5
Who has forbidden them? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel? Who has forbidden them?I know of no overseer who would allow his staff to marry and remain on the staff. Do you? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel?In my experience workers tend to be jealous of their position. They freak out when friends invite outsiders home for a bible study. Can you imagine what would happen if married believers hired a hall and preached the gospel publicly? But we cannot take only our own experience and state that as the rule. I have listened to married people (not workers) preach alongside workers in gospel meeting. I have been in study meetings in a home where workers were not there, held for those showing interest in the gospel, and not having "joined". For every rule there are 10 exceptions.
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Post by Zorro on Jul 2, 2009 9:23:51 GMT -5
OK OK I know... I am going to get accused of double speak, or whatever you want to call it, for my responses above, but you are pretending that there is such a thing as 2x2 and then you can pretend other things such as when the workers talk about the only way that they really meant 2x2 (even though they were talking about Jesus' way). The truth is that no such thing as 2x2 exists and when you understand that, you will realise that the workers have only ever told you the truth.
Are you actually serious? I had an overseer sit in my living room and explain to me that belief in the worker's ministry and the meetings in the home is a "fruit of the spirit".
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Post by ilylo on Jul 2, 2009 10:58:50 GMT -5
...and then you have this sleight of hand from nathan.
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Post by someguy on Jul 2, 2009 12:12:26 GMT -5
Yes, I am saying that the good news story mentions other's names. I mean, I think it is good news for us that Jesus died on the cross, and could say "forgive them", but the last time I read that story it gave me a few details about the situation including the mention of a few of people that were there, and quite frankly, I'm glad that these things were mentioned because this event wouldn't have made half as much sense if these things weren't mentioned. You haven't been talking to gray from VOT by any chance have you? He tried to tell me that the entire Gospel is contained in 1 Cor 15:v3&4. In other places I saw where he said it was 1 Cor 15:1 - 4, and then when questioned he expanded it to say that it was 1 Cor 15:1-8. But v1-8 might not suit you if you don't think other people can be mentioned. Anyway, I will ask the questions again in hope that you will answer this time... Do you mean that the Gospel is more than Jesus but only Jesus... is that what you are saying? Can you tell me the extent of what you think the Gospel is? You say that it is only abut Jesus, but Jesus had some interactions with other men, so are you saying that this can't be mentioned because it is not only about Jesus and Him alone? In your version of the Gospel, can any other people's names be mentioned at all? Someguy was quite clear. The first four books of the NT are called the gospels. Each one has a title such as "The gospel according to Mark". Those titles were written on the outside of the scrolls. Initially the scrolls were probably circulating without any title as the intended recipients knew who it was from. But with wider circulation and other versions being distributed it would have become a matter of convenience to label each scroll. Thus each version came to be known as a 'gospel' because each version contained the Gospel (capital G). This person, gray, that you refer to, is correct. The Gospel is presented as a creed in 1.Cor.15. The words delivered and received are technical rabbinical terms referring to the passing on of authoritative tradition. There is some question about what extent of this passage belongs in that authoritative tradition. It certainly covers vss.3-4 and possibly, though not necessarily, includes vs.5 referencing Peter and the 12. In any case, the Gospel (capital G) is succinctly stated in creedal form with: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures." The Gospel is the theological core of the story, that Christ has bought our salvation through His death and resurrection. References to other people are not strictly necessary in order for a person to receive the Gospel and exercise faith. The four books, or gospels, flesh out the events and stories in which the Gospel unfolds. So yes, the Gospel, the good news which saves and about which Paul exclaims, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes", is entirely about Jesus. Thanks Rob for explaining better than I could.
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 15:51:21 GMT -5
Who has forbidden them? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel? Who has forbidden them?I know of no overseer who would allow his staff to marry and remain on the staff. Do you? Who has forbidden married believers from preaching the gospel?In my experience workers tend to be jealous of their position. They freak out when friends invite outsiders home for a bible study. Can you imagine what would happen if married believers hired a hall and preached the gospel publicly? Hey JO, I would like you to answer these questions from kiwi too. Please do that if you get a chance because I would love to know who it was that has forbidden this.
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Post by JO on Jul 2, 2009 15:53:08 GMT -5
Nathan, do you know of an overseer who would allow any worker on his staff to marry and remain on his staff? Do you know of an overseer who would accept a married person who offered to join his staff? Do you know of an overseer who would allow the friends to hire a hall and preach the gospel in his area? If not, then these statements are correct: All workers are forbidden to marry. (but ex-workers are allowed to marry). All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel (except on rare occassions to speak in worker-controlled meetings when a 2x2 worker has no companion). ~~ Marriage is not forbidden for workers. Many workers got married and some became conventions owners, some had Sunday morning meetings in their homes.
Sometimes we have two workers fall in love and they get married. I was a worker and I got married. For myself I wouldn't want to be married workers couple in the work.
A worker's life is already stressful as it is so why would I want to ADD more STRESS with a wife and children in the work. For me, Thanks! but no thanks.
But If some feel VERY strongly that God has called them to be married workers couples in the work ... let them go in the work.
We had quite a few married workers couples for almost 100 yrs. in USA and others countries. 1) Jesusonly wrote: All workers are forbidden to marry but ex-workers are allowed to marry. ~~~ This is a false understanding. Workers and ex-workers are allowed to MARRY anytime they want to. Marriage is NOT forbidden by the workers.2) All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel. ~~~ This is false again. I have known and heard the church elders, and the friends sometimes preached in the gospel meetings with the worker when he/she has no companion. After the experience the friends have great compassion and understanding for the worker's calling.
Most of the outsiders came to the gospel from the friends sharing/preaching the message of Christ to them first before they met or heard the workers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 16:00:18 GMT -5
Of course those statements are perfectly correct. If married couples were allowed in the work there would be a considerable number of them in there full time, but there are none.
When Nathan says workers are allowed to get married, he is correct but doesn't say that they have to give up the work in order to get married. The fact that Nathan considers himself a married worker does not establish the fact that regular workers consider him a fellow worker.
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Post by Zorro on Jul 2, 2009 16:03:40 GMT -5
When Nathan says workers are allowed to get married, he is correct but doesn't say that they have to give up the work in order to get married. The fact that Nathan considers himself a married worker does not establish the fact that regular workers consider him a fellow worker.
+1
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 16:22:01 GMT -5
2) All married believers are forbidden from preaching the gospel. ~~~ This is false again. I have known and heard the church elders, and the friends sometimes preached in the gospel meetings with the worker when he/she has no companion. After the experience the friends have great compassion and understanding for the worker's calling.
Nathan, I have sat in missions just like this where one of the locals was preaching with the worker. He had a house that he went home to every night, and he was married. I have also heard stories of married couples going on a mission specifically to preach the Gospel. People are grasping at straws to try and find fault when they know very well that there are no such rules about this. Hopefully some of these people will realise that they are not really being very truthful, and ask themselves why they would come up with such a poor accusation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 16:27:34 GMT -5
Todd, yet again you are so right. You keep in there buddy, you're doing a great job.
A while back some guy was trying to convince the board that the early workers taught that only those who sowed their lives as seed received authority from God to preach the gospel. They had to sell everything they had, scatter it so as it could not be picked up again, then go out as a homeless minister, relying on God to meet their needs.
Boy was he a nutcase or what?
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2009 16:28:07 GMT -5
Thanks Rob for explaining better than I could. SG, Rob didn't explain the extent of the Gospel that you are talking about either. If you look in 1 Cor 15 you will see other names mentioned. Are you saying that this isn't the Gospel despite Paul saying that it is. Could you explain the extent of this Good news story... what is in it, and what is out?
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 2, 2009 16:42:17 GMT -5
Todd wrote: Ok, I realise that the core is about Jesus' death and resurrection but there is a whole lot more that gives it some meaning. I find it hard to believe that people going to be inspired by workers preaching just v3 & 4 or 1 Cor 15. People will hear that Jesus died for our sins and they will think, "Oh poor fella... I knew I shouldn't have sinned... anyway maybe he wasn't a very nice person". And then they will hear that he was raised from the dead and they will think, "Whew, now I don't feel half as bad... I hope he gets on ok from now on".
Guess Rob was on right track then. The Bible tells us that the preaching of the Cross is foolishness to the world.
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