H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
|
Post by H.A.S. on Jun 25, 2009 14:34:10 GMT -5
Excellent response! Being B&R in the 2x2's, it took me forever to grasp this concept. That's why I have a lot of tolerance for those who don't see the difference yet. ~~ Jesus is the way, the truth and life and no man comes unto the Father but through him. Jesus came to show us the way to eternal life.No Nathan; Jesus came to be the way to eternal life. That's the part I didn't understand as a 2x2. Anyway, that's another topic for another thread.
|
|
H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
|
Post by H.A.S. on Jun 25, 2009 14:58:38 GMT -5
~~ The early 2x2s workers tried to "Return" or "Continue" the apostolic ministry and way of worship Jesus and apostles started 2000 yrs ago.
By the way, there were other believers who have continued going forth as Jesus sent forth his messengers in the gospels and in the book of Acts for 1800 yrs prior to the 2x2 workers. Come on Nathan; you know as well as I do that these groups have nothing to do with the Friends and Workers.
|
|
H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
|
Post by H.A.S. on Jun 25, 2009 15:01:19 GMT -5
Here is sad story about Jesus being a "way" and his group being a works based, 2x2 ministry.Luke 18: 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (interminable ramblings about works... ie no adultery, stealing, blah blah blah) And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing (drum roll...) : sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me (more blah blah blah...)And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! (more of the same judgments ...) And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God (and clearly Jesus can't grasp these men ARE ALREADY SAVED)Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. (more worker worship garbage...) Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. (apparantly Jesus gets carried away with this worker sacrifice thing again...) Looks like Bert has a discount bible too. ;D
|
|
H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
|
Post by H.A.S. on Jun 25, 2009 15:15:27 GMT -5
~~ From my own understanding, observation and reading the Vaudois of today is NOT the same as those faithful martyrs true believers of Christ for 1800 yrs who stood up against the false teachings of the Catholic Church. They have departed from the teachings of Jesus when they joined with the reformation movement, teachings, practices by the late 1800's. I wonder if you feel the 2x2's departed from the teachings of Jesus when they stopped requiring that all converts become workers? Did they lose the moral high ground when they allowed people to simply be “Friends”? By the way, which year was it that the founders created the Sunday morning meeting again? I can never remember if it was 1906 or 1908...
|
|
H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
|
Post by H.A.S. on Jun 25, 2009 16:11:31 GMT -5
Worse Bert did this----- For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:He committed SACRILEGE by the act of depriving Gods Word of its sacred character. I think John might have been talking specifically about the book of Revelations when he wrote that. Either way, the only thing Bert is guilty of is telling a bad joke. I too am guilty of that sin , so I can't join you in casting stones at him. Maybe rotten tomatoes, but no stones.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 21:50:05 GMT -5
Clay, I wrote this to show in an honest manner HOW MOST PEOPLE PREFER TO READ THIS TEXT.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 25, 2009 21:55:24 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2009 5:16:46 GMT -5
The Sunday morning home gathering was first carried out by the foundation church. This practice was noted by numerous 2nd and 3rd century historians. Usually this was done quite early in the morning in celebration of Christ's resurrection. No one can claim credit for inventing or re-inventing it.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 27, 2009 9:32:41 GMT -5
The Sunday morning home gathering was first carried out by the foundation church. This practice was noted by numerous 2nd and 3rd century historians. Usually this was done quite early in the morning in celebration of Christ's resurrection. No one can claim credit for inventing or re-inventing it. Then why does not the 2X2's have a "sunrise" service like the Catholics and apparently as you say the 2nd and 3rd century people did? That is if we're really trying to "return" or "continue" the way the apostles did?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 5:15:20 GMT -5
Excellent question Sharon. There are numerous references to Sunday worship in the New Testament. None mention a time. Therefor we assume a time wasn't important. We can celebrate His rising at sunrise, or we can celebrate him meeting with his disciples that night. But... the references to dawn services comes from extra-biblical sources, and probably don't refer to the founding church itself.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 7:10:31 GMT -5
Fred, Bert is not the one confusing the message. The workers, who are supposed to be preaching the way that was taught back when Jesus was around, seem to find themselves accused when they do this because people will say "Hey, those liars, this way started in 1897". They are confusing the message. Are you suggesting then that it is quite fine for the workers to continue preaching the Gospel that they have, and continue teaching about the way that began at Galilee? Or should they preach a different Gospel? What Fred is saying (if you don't mind me answering Fred) is sadly enough Bert can't seem to understand that the message about Jesus is not about the method in which it is presented. There are people on this board which are desperately trying to make others believe that the Gospel is also about a homeless ministry. Ok, fair enough. The Gospel I have read mentions a homeless ministry, but maybe you know of a different "gospel". I'm not sure if you have noticed, but the Gospel talks about more than just Jesus. The Gospel is about Jesus and many things he did. I'm not sure how you could have read the Gospel and missed him walking on water and a few other cool things he did while he was on earth. You know, he sent a homeless ministry back then, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that God is still sending out a homeless ministry today. The fact that this ministry is mentioned in the Gospel is probably to give us the faith that todays ministry is of God, when we see those continuing to be sent as they were back then.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 7:24:18 GMT -5
What do you mean that a group could not be cohesive? If they are not doing the same things or going in the same dirrection, they wouldn't be a group. And just to quote Cherie in case you somehow missed it... "no cohesive movement, body or group"... do you notice the word "group" in there? There was no "group". "What do you mean that a group could not be cohesive? If they are not doing the same things or going in the same dirrection, they wouldn't be a group. And just to quote Cherie in case you somehow missed it... "no cohesive movement, body or group"... do you notice the word "group" in there? There was no "group"." Todd, I think the "cohesive" word is the key....in 1897 there was NO movement to form a denomination or sect of religion....however through fellowship and alike beliefs there was inadvertently a "group" formed and all new converts soon became "workers" for this common cause...... Yes Sharon, this was exactly my point.... 1897, there was no group. All along there were those who weren't being turned into preachers, whether they were hooked up with Faith Mission prayer meetings or whatever it was. This idea that it was intended that everyone would become workers is ridiculous. It didn't happen to all coverts in the Faith Mission and didn't happen outside of that. Any suggestion of that is just a slur on the truth. I'm not sure what you mean here by the need for being top dog is within the system?! I do know that WI had some pride, and also did a few wrong things at certain times, but not really sure what you are telling me here.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 7:29:07 GMT -5
Todd, How long have you professed? Quite a few years. Do you need to know exactly?
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 7:36:28 GMT -5
Zorro, answer me. Two men: man 1 - starts preaching, right now, 2009 - word for word what is in the Gospel. Says his message goes back to the shores of Galilee. man2 - says the Gospel should have stayed on the shores of Galilee, this is a changed world and the Gospel should change. Who would you believe? I ask Todd how long he's professed and you ask me this? This has got be good for one of your lists. Bert, You should know the 10 golden rules!!! Here they are again to refresh your memory... 1. If Zorro asks Todd a question. 2. Nobody can ask Zorro a question 3. For the next 28 days. 10. Or else. Put yourself on a list, Bert.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 28, 2009 7:57:31 GMT -5
"I'm not sure what you mean here by the need for being top dog is within the system?! I do know that WI had some pride, and also did a few wrong things at certain times, but not really sure what you are telling me here."
WI was the "oldest" of all the beginning workers, he'd been a mining supervisor, he'd sit in some theology classes and he was FM's leader at the beginning of the movement. It was a natural process in which the other workers looked to him for leadership and appointing him as the first overseer. However, I feel that they did not know WI very well....what I've read about him, he was pretty much for moving around a lot....seems that is a carry over unto this day....that way NO one gets to know you as a person whether for good or bad. Constantly moving from one group to another does some protection and it also increases the potential for the worker-worship to become prevalent. I've seen it in some of my own family and I've seen what it causes down the line...it isn't healthy for anyone NOT to be known as an individual, always being held up as perfect and more then godly, etc. NO one can really attain that status and keep it. However back to WI, he was found to be amoral in his lifestyle and apparently continued that even after being an overseer of the workers from all indications. He also had delusions of grandeur about himself....he wasn't of very good mental healthy at all! He wasn't a very good worker to be left in the position he was in and he certainly became a great liability as he would've started preaching and perhaps did some about how he was one of the "two" witnesses, etc.....so the other workers banded together and gracefully granted him his wishes and shipped him to Israel! There have been times where other workers have held tight to being "top dog".....I've seen and heard them "bristle" at one another should they perceive another is impinging on their "terriotory". That is just human nature, perhaps at it worst. I also think the Jack Carroll and George Walker feud that never really got resolved is another example of top dog syndrome! There still is a hangover and it seems the "spirit" of this continuing terriotorial feud is even worse then when JC and GW were alive...GW did apologize and sought to bring a common goal to the two sides of the US.....bringing those within the fellowship to common goals and principles, but it just hasn't happened....fact is seems to be widening the difference. And I'm referring to the D&R issue, the "form" of outward manifestations of professing especially concerning women's looks and attire and things that some can do tha others wouldn't dare to do! When you get down to the brass tacts of it all, it really seems like it is two different sects of religion....honestly! There is less cohesiveness now then there was 112 yrs. ago!
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 7:58:28 GMT -5
No, but I do try to imitate him at times. And that is fair enough. The thing is though that people use these dates as evidence regarding William Irvine being the founder, but unfortunately they can't agree on anything he did to become the founder and that is why there are many dates. If we knew what he did, we would also know when he did it and therefore have an idea of the starting of this group. So whether you don't care about the starting date, it is tied in with how it was started, because finding what started it should also reveal when it was started. And it is actually the "founder" that is the subject of this thread, and I am like you in that I am not that interested in the particular date. No I haven't asked yet. Do you want me to ask a specific question to see what he answers? Like do you want me to ask about William Irvine, or do you want me to ask about the beginning of our group to see if he mentions William Irvine? What are you on about?... I just said that the history is important to the church, but not really the period of time we are talking about here. Thanks for the advice, but you didn't answer the question. Jesus' church which began more than 2000 years ago, would be more than 2000 years old knowing that the church still exists today. That is the only true church. Any body of people who call themselves a church to seperate themselves from other Christians are being exclusive and would therefore be not part of the one church of Jesus (that began in Galilee).
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 8:05:39 GMT -5
~~ Jesus is the way, the truth and life and no man comes unto the Father but through him. Jesus came to show us the way to eternal life. Jesus came to be the way. Hey JO, I wonder if that's what Nathan meant when he said that "Jesus is the way"?
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 28, 2009 8:18:46 GMT -5
~~ The early 2x2s workers tried to "Return" or "Continue" the apostolic ministry and way of worship Jesus and apostles started 2000 yrs ago.
By the way, there were other believers who have continued going forth as Jesus sent forth his messengers in the gospels and in the book of Acts for 1800 yrs prior to the 2x2 workers. The word continue in this context is a lie, because it gives the impression of apostolic succession. I don't see why it is a lie. It might be an Australian thing, but someone had been planting a crop and stopped because they had to go somewhere or do something, it would not be unusual to say "Well you go and do that, and I'll continue the planting". This is even though the planting has not been continuous. Surely the fact that someone says that they are going to go and continue something would give some indication that they are not doing it right now and the "continuing" is not of something that they haven't stopped doing. If the early workers said that they are going to continue the apostolic ministry, surely you would use reasonable english comprehension skills to reaslise that they have not always been doing that. Others have been, but just not those who said it. I find a lot of misunderstanding of basic language around these parts so don't feel bad.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jun 28, 2009 8:18:54 GMT -5
Any body of people who call themselves a church to separate themselves from other Christians are being exclusive and would therefore be not part of the one church of Jesus (that began in Galilee).You got that right todd! Any group of people that separate themselves from other Christians and claim to be the 'only way' have removed themselves from the true Church. Since the true Church is the people and not a group of any sort, any 'group' that claims to be 'the way' is exclusive and therefore MUST be wrong. Hey!! We agree on something!! Cool huh??? Scott
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Jun 28, 2009 11:46:45 GMT -5
Any body of people who call themselves a church to separate themselves from other Christians are being exclusive and would therefore be not part of the one church of Jesus (that began in Galilee).You got that right todd! Any group of people that separate themselves from other Christians and claim to be the 'only way' have removed themselves from the true Church. Since the true Church is the people and not a group of any sort, any 'group' that claims to be 'the way' is exclusive and therefore MUST be wrong. Hey!! We agree on something!! Cool huh??? Scott 'Other Christians'? What, like the Mormons, or todays Catholics? True Believers do not go to war against each other, and do not even take the other to court. If they did, and was an acceptable practice, they would NOT YET or NO MORE be true Christian; 1 Cor 6:7-11 7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. NKJVA true Christian would not 'hide' from other Christians, especially from the world, so I agree with you there Scott; Mark 8:38 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." NKJV
Luke 9:26
Also, a true Church of God would never promote any wrongdoing, or tolerate sin of any kind. If they do, they have severed themselves from the head, which is Christ, and are dead (in sin);
John 12:46-49 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him — the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. NKJV
John 14:24 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. NKJV
John 15:12 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. NKJV
Love one another, but NOT the sin. Hate the sin and rebuke those who live in them, don't even eat with such a one, but cast him out, so he will feel what it is to be with Satan again, living in his sin, so that he may repent, and his soul would be saved on THAT DAY!
John 15:18-19 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. NKJV
If the world LOVES you, then you are of the world and NOT a Christian.
Sin is darkness, and when a group of believers who call themselves Christian (2X2's) 'hide', they are NOT being a light to this darkened world. Why, because their 'deeds' are evil, so they are also living in darkness;
John 3:20-21 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV
There is no excuse to hide, as Nathan explained to me once as to why the 2X2's hide, saying they were afraid of persecution.
Persecution is the very SIGN that you are being a light, a Christian;
John 15:20 20 Remember the word that I said to you,'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. NKJV
Matt 10:24-26 24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!
So why hide? Fear, what? So they would not know who you are, or afraid that they might find something wrong with you?
26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. NKJV
Matt 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake NKJV
2 Tim 3:10-11 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra — what persecutions I endured. NKJV
Jesus is my Founder, He found me, and bought me for a very high price. Because of HIM I am worth a lot, so why hide?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jun 28, 2009 12:28:11 GMT -5
Hi todd! You know, he sent a homeless ministry back then, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that God is still sending out a homeless ministry today. The fact that this ministry is mentioned in the Gospel is probably to give us the faith that todays ministry is of God, when we see those continuing to be sent as they were back then.Wasn't the actual situation back then that Jesus sent the apostles away from their homes to minister? To me that is a bit different than a homeless ministry. After all, those apostles had homes and wives which they returned to didn't they? We read of Jesus telling John to take his mother into his home for example..... This has always kind of bugged me when people speak of a 'homeless ministry' rather than speaking of the need to minister 'away from ones home'. Scott
|
|
|
Post by someguy on Jun 28, 2009 18:26:06 GMT -5
Ok, fair enough. The Gospel I have read mentions a homeless ministry, but maybe you know of a different "gospel". I'm not sure if you have noticed, but the Gospel talks about more than just Jesus. The Gospel is about Jesus and many things he did. I'm not sure how you could have read the Gospel and missed him walking on water and a few other cool things he did while he was on earth. You know, he sent a homeless ministry back then, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that God is still sending out a homeless ministry today. The fact that this ministry is mentioned in the Gospel is probably to give us the faith that today's ministry is of God, when we see those continuing to be sent as they were back then. This is exactly the type of behavior that I am talking about. It scares me to think that people can convince others that the call of Jesus is into a system rather than a call to Jesus himself. Emphasizing the system, one can easily miss the call of Christ, which is to Him and not to a method or denomination. Oh yah Todd, some verses about homes just in case you missed them. Matt 8:14 "And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever." John 19:25-27 the latter part of verse 27 "...And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. " These aren't exactly homeless apostles are they? Jesus asked them to go to the house of Israel but I don't recall him asking Peter or John to sell their homes before or after they went. I do recall a young man who trusted in his riches being asked to sell all he had, but none of the apostles were asked this. However, for people who like to believe it is all about a system, or method, we see serious twisting of the scriptures to snare people in the thinking that those who minister must be homeless and go out in 2's. If you don't try to twist the scriptures we can easily see that they had homes, therefore punching holes in your argument that the ministry must be homeless. Todd, the Gospel's talk about more than Jesus but the "Gospel" is about Jesus and Him alone. I caution against believing anything that is Jesus plus something else to be salvation.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 28, 2009 18:37:23 GMT -5
Todd, the Gospel's talk about more than Jesus but the "Gospel" is about Jesus and Him alone. I caution against believing anything that is Jesus plus something else to be salvation." quote I agree...."Gospel" simply is interpreted "good news", isn't it? What is the "good news" of? Isn't it about "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...."? what does that phrase mean? It means that love is what led Jesus to Calvary's cross where He died for all mankind......it is in some parts of the gospels it says that He would save "many". The "good news" is the fact Jesus came to the earth into a human form, and at the prime of His life, He was sentenced by false witnesses, beat, mocked, scorned and then crucified one of the cruelest deaths known to man! This kind of death was saved for the worst of criminals....the shame He suffered, He had no thought for it, He minded it not....and why? Because through His tasting death and hell for all mankind He has brought salvation by grace to all mankind to those whosoever believes on Him! That is the "good news"!
To add anything else to the "gospel" dilutes its' effect, don't you think Todd?
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Jun 28, 2009 19:24:20 GMT -5
Does it matter how many were or were not married? The truth is that Jesus sent out men regardless of whether they were married or not.
We don't know how many of the 70 were married or not married, because it was not an issue.
How many women did Jesus send out, Nathan?
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 28, 2009 19:30:37 GMT -5
I was going to say, I'm not sure marriage had anything to do with the commission in Mt. 10....for Jesus knew that commission would be short lived....He later told His Apostles that there would be some there that would not see death before they saw the kingdom of God in glory or come in its' glory.....I used to think and I think I heard that meant when Jesus was to return to gather His own fromt he four winds of the earth...I do not think so, Jesus was talking about the power and glory that comes with the "resurrection"...only God can do that, only God is that omnipotent! That is the power and glory was telling that some of that generation would not pass away before they saw it......it's kind of like the old prophet that had lived long enough to see Jesus right after He was born, isn't it? That was power and glory of the kingdom of heaven to that old man and there was Anna, the prophetess within that also...she figured that she got to see the power and glory of the kingdom of heaven when she got to see the baby Jesus! I think it is a matter of when we reach our individual recognition of just who Jesus is and that is when we get to see the power and the glory of the kingdom of heaven, is that a possibility?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jun 28, 2009 21:35:30 GMT -5
Hi Nathan! ~~ In the gospels the 12 and 70 apostles didn't really understand or comprehend their callings as Itinerant ministry gospel preachers! Until the day of the Pentecost in Acts 2.And just which verses in Acts 2 show that they really understand or comprehend their callings as Itinerant ministry gospel preachers!I think you are confusing a calling from God to being a minister with a calling to be an itinerant preacher. I don't have an issue with some people being called to be itinerant preachers. I DO have an issue with people who try to prove that being an itinerant preacher is the ONLY way to carry the gospel message. The bible doesn't back that up in my belief. We are ALL called upon to share the good news of the gospel. Some are called to fulfill different roles in the church, but there is no place in the bible that makes it a rule to be itinerant, nor to go 2x2. Of course this is just my opinion based on what I read in the bible.... Scott
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jun 28, 2009 21:39:15 GMT -5
~~ How many apostles were married that you of in the New Testament? who were they?
How many apostles were not married?
Your questions really have nothing to do with my point Nathan. My point was that those chosen by Jesus were sent away from their homes to carry the message, and that some of them were married. At no time did Jesus tell them to get rid of their homes nor that they were going to have to dump their wives or girlfriends. Scott
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Jun 29, 2009 0:23:12 GMT -5
Todd, How long have you professed? Quite a few years. Do you need to know exactly? No, I don't need to know. I'm just trying to figure out if you're naive.
|
|