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Post by sharon on Jun 15, 2009 17:47:48 GMT -5
Cherie - it sounds out as "I lie low" Nathan - why are you trying to rat out ilylo? Why are obsessed with knowing the identity of posters? Who cares who he is, just stay on topic for once in your life. I have always said that in my mind as "Ill e oh!" Shows where my mind is in medical matters all the time! ;D I actually was wondering just what might be wrong with him/her! ;D
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Post by todd on Jun 15, 2009 17:51:13 GMT -5
Oh really? Putting words in my mouth again, Todd? I understand quite well-- Cherie, could you please explain the difference between what I said about you above, and what you have in your book below. Surely you can see how I got the impression about the logic you use. Obviously this logic condradicts logic you use in other places of your book and the logic used on this forum by others, but that is another matter.
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Post by junia on Jun 15, 2009 17:52:23 GMT -5
Frankly, nathan, your behavior today was quite immature. Ditto.
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Post by todd on Jun 15, 2009 17:59:51 GMT -5
However you and your ilk (Todd for one) try to obfuscate and fudge the truth of the origins, Please show me where I have tried to obfuscate and fudge the truth of the origins. All I have done is asked for it to be explained but nobody can. I see some very contratictory arguments and "facts" that seem to be able to be changed to suit whatever someone is trying to prove at the time and even though I get a giggle out of it, it becomes a little bit serious when you use these false arguments to accuse people of lying.
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Post by emy on Jun 15, 2009 18:04:17 GMT -5
In post #1597 Nathan said this: << ~~~ Your work insinuates the 2x2 church as William Irvine's own experiement not according to the scriptures, the 2x2 church founded by him following Matthew 10 which meant when for the lost sheep House of Israel and and the children of Israel..... John Long was William Irivine's first companion in 1897. He was a false prophet then the rest couldn't be right.
Didn't you have an article on your website asking was William Irvine a prophet? >>
I think that may have been a reply to some of what he considers twisted by Cherie.
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Post by sharon on Jun 15, 2009 18:06:05 GMT -5
Cherie! I think perhaps the most suspicious ideas comes from the fact that you do not belong to the 2X2's anymore....
And it is mind-boggling for the average person to see all the historical documents and pictures you have taken your own time and your own money to gather together and arrange it in some order. What I mean by "mind-boggling" is not very many people use their own time without some kind of financial reimbursement and definitely not their own money in such an overmuch undertaking of the proportions you have taken and not "believe"!.....otherwords "WHy in this world are you not professing to be a 2X2 anymore if all this history you've gathered is meant to be positive?" That's the biggest question I hear said in regards to your historical endeavors and "if" they're to the positive! That's just being as bluntly honest...........sorry!
Personally, I feel a lot like September wrote about the history...why hide it? I know the beginning workers did NOT want to be honored and glorified in their endeavors, but not being honored for their actual part in it perhaps is what has brought about the "false prideful worshipping" of all workers for some people...mostly the workers themselves!
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Post by someguy on Jun 15, 2009 18:14:08 GMT -5
Frankly, nathan, your behavior today was quite immature. Ditto. I was wondering who this was....hahhahaha good one.
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Post by emy on Jun 15, 2009 18:15:42 GMT -5
Nathan, just because someone tries to document the history of the fellowship does not mean that he or she is intent on destroying it. People have a right to know of the origins and make up their own minds as to whether the information is important or not. No other church/sect/cult has worked harder to deny and hide the origins and to its great detriment in my opinion. However you and your ilk (Todd for one) try to obfuscate and fudge the truth of the origins, the fact remains that many brave men and women, in face of huge opposition from friends, family and neighbours moved together under the organisational skills of WI and EC, inspired by the scriptures and I would say undoubtedly guided by God to form this fellowship that we know today. Insisting that there was no beginning, other than the usual old cobblers about the shores of Galilee makes a mockery of what these people faced and ultimately achieved. They should be lauded and celebrated, not swept under the carpet in shame due to staggering ignorance and a misguided notion that man cannot possibly have founded a fellowship that echoed that of church spoken of in Acts. Members of my family were moved by the struggles and sacrifices of these otherwise ordinary people, moved enough that the stories were passed down through the generations and spoken of with awe and wonderment that God could use these people in such a way to challenge the religious thinkers of the day. Members of my family were moved enough to give all they could to enable the fellowship to take shape in the way we know it and give shelter and more to countless that had been ostracised because of their convictions. They were happy to accept the founding of a fellowship by man, and were stirred up enough to move with them in the face of bitter opposition, to grow in faith with this new fellowship and make huge sacrifices themselves to enable the fellowship to grow. What elevates you and your ilk that makes the remarkable origins of the fellowship too prosaic for you? Rather than belly-aching about the Vaudois, the Waldenses and a foolish idea that Cherie is trying to destroy the fellowship, you ought to be grateful that there is an effort made to record the remarkable events that took place at the turn of the 20thC. Events that ought to inspire you enough to try to help the fellowship regain the momentum, the joy, the zeal of those amazing early days which only the most deluded amongst us would claim that the fellowship has never lost. And just a thought: did it ever occur to you and those of your ilk that there is the strongest temptation for disaffected exes to gleefully prick holes in the puffed up notions that this fellowship stretches back to Galilee? I suspect much of the denial of the wilfully ignorant fans flames of biased reporting that would otherwise not be apparent. September, I find this post rather frightening. The parts that I bolded show exactly why (along with other reasons) the early workers did not emphasize or talk about who may have implemented the ideas they gathered from the Bible. They were not looking for recognition for themselves or their peers. Their mission was to point to Christ and the Bible and gather others who believed the same things.
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Post by emy on Jun 15, 2009 18:19:01 GMT -5
Cherie! I think perhaps the most suspicious ideas comes from the fact that you do not belong to the 2X2's anymore.... ...<snip> ,,, WHy in this world are you not professing to be a 2X2 anymore if all this history you've gathered is meant to be positive?" That's the biggest question I hear said in regards to your historical endeavors and "if" they're to the positive! That's just being as bluntly honest...........sorry! ...<snip>... Good point, Sharon.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 15, 2009 18:21:37 GMT -5
Oh, now that makes a heck of a lot of sense. Someone who doesn't belong to the 2x2s tells the truth about the church. Meanwhile those who lie about the 2x2 church are still members.
Your argument doesn't wash.
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Post by todd on Jun 15, 2009 18:22:47 GMT -5
I'll answer for him/her--no, he/she's not my biological brother. And further, I dont even know who Ilylo really is. And I dont care...why do you care so much? It's like you have a crush on him/her? Cherie, why do you pretend here that you don't even know whether ilylo is a male or female, when previously you have told me that he is male. You have also told me that you had him helping you with your website, yet here you act as if you have never had anything to do with him. You shouldn't wonder then that I am very skeptical about these questions here. Is this just more pretence to give people the impression you don't know ilylo. Do the letters in "Ilylo" stand for something? How did you come up with that name anyway? These 2 questions don't fit together if they were being asked by a person who doesn't know the answer already. The first question was about how the name was derived, and then the second question has "anyway" on the end as if the first question wasn't about how the name was derived. Very strange indeed.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 15, 2009 18:26:19 GMT -5
todd,
Your hatred clouds your ability to discuss things on an even keel. Take a deep breath.
What cherie said is all perfectly true. Of course she knows I'm male, but leave it to you to make a federal case out of the minor details.
The remainder of her post is spot on accurate. If you can't handle that, then that's your problem.
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Post by sharon on Jun 15, 2009 18:28:50 GMT -5
Emy! I stated more or less the same thing....for I'd heard some of the beginning workers say just those words...they didn't want this effort to be "about them"! However, when things are not put down in black and white, then it isn't long until it does become a real lie and also it gets out of hand as to what one says it is to what another says it isn't! I do not think the beginning workers thought it thus far! We're seeing 4-6 th generation 2X2's and we're seeing alot of things that just shouldn't be...it is "oppressive" to mankind and God doesn't like "oppressors" nor does He like "liars"!
I fully understand what the beginning workers were trying to do by not "glorifying" themselves in it all.....but as the membership grew in numbers, of course, you're going to have more and more of human nature in the midst of it all and thus it comes out to be something that it really wasn't intended to be! That's just the way of the "commandments of men" that soon become doctrine...happens....it happens with other churches of the world, does it not. But they do have something to fall back upon....their beginning doctrine, history and whatever it was that spurred them on to form their sect of religion. It doesn't become a guessing game about it at all.
NOW IF the 2X2's had stayed with Jesus' teachings completely and alone Jesus' teachings, then it might have been a whole lot better....but we have to admit that the "form" that Paul wrote about in different places in his epistles and his writings were to the situation at hand is what the w&f's use almost explicitly...Jesus never said one word about hair nor dress, did He?.....just like Paul said about the hair on women....he ended up saying "We have NO such doctrine." But NO the workers and friends hold to it like it is one of the 10 commandments....that is being a "Pauline" and not a pure christian....that bothers me greatly and I'm not advocating being immodest or running for the latest in styles of hairdoes, etc.....but Paul himself said "Let your moderation be made known to all man." That in itself is enough to be said about clothing and hair and cars and anything to do with our customs and cultures of today!
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Post by fred on Jun 15, 2009 18:31:36 GMT -5
I 'know' that you are male because that is what you have claimed. However, now ram also claims to be you , and that might be true because the ram is a male. Oh it's all so confusing I think I'll have a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 15, 2009 18:34:44 GMT -5
I 'know' that you are male because that is what you have claimed. However, now ram also claims to be you , and that might be true because the ram is a male. Oh it's all so confusing I think I'll have a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down. Nah... I have a better idea. Put my avatar in your profile, change your display name to be the same as mine, and then resume operation. that should cause at least one conniption somewhere in the world.
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Post by sharon on Jun 15, 2009 18:44:08 GMT -5
~~~ hahaha... don't shoot us! please. You might shoot the good messenger! Get on your knees and ask God for the answer first then shoot one and save the other. You're in luck, he said to save you both. HAS...you're so funny! I suspect God would say...let them both live and He'd decide later, eh?
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Post by todd on Jun 15, 2009 18:45:08 GMT -5
todd, Your hatred clouds your ability to discuss things on an even keel. Take a deep breath. Sorry, give me a hug would you? I hope she understands why I am so skeptical. Too much of what she says doesn't add up. Yes accurate, but revealing. I should be able to handle it.
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Post by sharon on Jun 15, 2009 18:52:53 GMT -5
Oh, now that makes a heck of a lot of sense. Someone who doesn't belong to the 2x2s tells the truth about the church. Meanwhile those who lie about the 2x2 church are still members. Your argument doesn't wash. Sorry, ilyo, it wasn't meant as an argument...I'd said in the original post that it is mindboggling that someone in Cherie's position in regards to the 2X2's would use their own time and their own money....it is hard for anyone to understand the why she has done so and does not "believe" as a 2X2 anymore! I don't mean to be knocking anyone with the comment nor arguing any point....it just is a fact that people cannot understand it....and that is not just 2X2's, I've heard it from those who are not 2X2's. If Cherie had been and was a noted historian of other things, it wouldn't be hard to understand...but she has spent years and lots of her own money! It's just mind-boggling! And I think if she ever starts adding it all up, she might be mind boggled as well!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 15, 2009 18:53:11 GMT -5
Todd, this post by you is a perfect example of your comprehension issues. You deliberately misunderstand and make wild assumptions and you also bait people. I just dont care to use my time to unravel your errors in understanding. I dont care what you believe...my goal is to present facts. There is nothing in my post below that indicates I have "never" had anything to do with Ilylo. From my words, you ASSUMED that was what I was saying. But you were wrong in that assumption. Yes, Ilylo helped me tremendously with my website--"bless his pea pickin' lil heart!" His TLT logo is on TTT giving him credit -- however, the website work was not done in person--not even one phone call was made. It was all done via email and internet, with Ilylo remaining incognito. Bottom line: I dont know who Ilylo is - and it doesnt bother me. And I really dont care if you're skeptical or not...if that floats your boat go for it. Trying to convince skeptics is not what God has called me to do with my time. I present information--others can take it or leave it; and many help me increase it. I also correct false or incorrect information when I feel it is needful... PS I already answered your post 1652...on this thread I'll answer for him/her--no, he/she's not my biological brother. And further, I dont even know who Ilylo really is. And I dont care...why do you care so much? It's like you have a crush on him/her? Cherie, why do you pretend here that you don't even know whether ilylo is a male or female, when previously you have told me that he is male. You have also told me that you had him helping you with your website, yet here you act as if you have never had anything to do with him. You shouldn't wonder then that I am very skeptical about these questions here. Is this just more pretence to give people the impression you don't know ilylo. Do the letters in "Ilylo" stand for something? How did you come up with that name anyway? These 2 questions don't fit together if they were being asked by a person who doesn't know the answer already. The first question was about how the name was derived, and then the second question has "anyway" on the end as if the first question wasn't about how the name was derived. Very strange indeed.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 15, 2009 19:02:11 GMT -5
Sharon, I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it. and I dont find it offensive. I believe there are 2x2 Christians. I just do not believe the 2x2 church is God's "only way" on earth. I know people find that odd. Thats just the way it is. I've explained why I do what I do before and given my mission statement. Its on TTT and its in my story on TTT. I dont have time or inclination to into that again. Please realize that I've been doing this for 20 years--it didn't happen overnight. It was a small body of information that has been gradually increased over time. And others have contributed to my costs and voluntarily given their time, resources and abilities to help me in this endeavor. I'm not the only one. There are others who have done as much as I have done and I marvel at them also. One was B&R; and the other one learned about the 2x2s when she was in her 20s. She never was in it--yet she has amassed the most amazing archive and is writing a book also. Cherie! I think perhaps the most suspicious ideas comes from the fact that you do not belong to the 2X2's anymore... And it is mind-boggling for the average person to see all the historical documents and pictures you have taken your own time and your own money to gather together and arrange it in some order. What I mean by "mind-boggling" is not very many people use their own time without some kind of financial reimbursement and definitely not their own money in such an overmuch undertaking of the proportions you have taken and not "believe"!.....otherwords "WHy in this world are you not professing to be a 2X2 anymore if all this history you've gathered is meant to be positive?" That's the biggest question I hear said in regards to your historical endeavors and "if" they're to the positive! That's just being as bluntly honest...........sorry! Personally, I feel a lot like September wrote about the history...why hide it? I know the beginning workers did NOT want to be honored and glorified in their endeavors, but not being honored for their actual part in it perhaps is what has brought about the "false prideful worshipping" of all workers for some people...mostly the workers themselves!
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Post by Gene on Jun 15, 2009 19:04:52 GMT -5
Hmmmm.... you look a lot like junia to me.
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Post by sharon on Jun 15, 2009 19:13:16 GMT -5
Cherie, to be fair.....I'm hoping this introductory paragraph is what you mean as your mission statement.....
"What is Telling The Truth?
The purpose of the TTT website is to inform and educate. To publish the plain, unvarnished truth and to oppose deception. TTT believes everyone who has ever been associated with this church has a right to know the historical facts concerning its founder and origin. TTT is dedicated to making the historical information easily accessible and available. TTT strives to state information in such a manner that an adolescent will be able to understand it. It is TTT's goal that the history of the group will become common knowledge. TTT encourages individual examination and evaluation. TTT is not a church, denomination or religion, and is operated by a former member."
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 15, 2009 19:20:56 GMT -5
Cherie, to be fair.....I'm hoping this introductory paragraph is what you mean as your mission statement..... "What is Telling The Truth? The purpose of the TTT website is to inform and educate. To publish the plain, unvarnished truth and to oppose deception. TTT believes everyone who has ever been associated with this church has a right to know the historical facts concerning its founder and origin. TTT is dedicated to making the historical information easily accessible and available. TTT strives to state information in such a manner that an adolescent will be able to understand it. It is TTT's goal that the history of the group will become common knowledge. TTT encourages individual examination and evaluation. TTT is not a church, denomination or religion, and is operated by a former member." The Mission statement is on TTT home page under Home - Mission statement. www.tellingthetruth.info/home/aboutttt.phpAlso, consider this: If someone inside the fellowship created a website such as TTT - they would most likely be given the choice of taking it down or being excommunicated... so if it was to happen, it had to be done an an outsider...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 19:34:55 GMT -5
Anything which persuades in the name of "informing" is deception.
Anything which denies the voices of those it speaks against is false judgment.
It would be nice if those who write these books and web sites could contact us on the TMB, and provide that voice. Cherie, could you give us opportunity, whenever you contact someone writing such books, to put forward our point of view?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 15, 2009 19:45:59 GMT -5
Anything which persuades in the name of "informing" is deception. Anything which denies the voices of those it speaks against is false judgment. It would be nice if those who write these books and web sites could contact us on the TMB, and provide that voice. Cherie, could you give us opportunity, whenever you contact someone writing such books, to put forward our point of view? All the authors of books-in-progress that I am aware of know where to find the TMB...
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 15, 2009 19:48:08 GMT -5
Then why are there so many "pioneering" worker stories doing exactly what September mentioned? Check them out at: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/ Nathan, just because someone tries to document the history of the fellowship does not mean that he or she is intent on destroying it. People have a right to know of the origins and make up their own minds as to whether the information is important or not. No other church/sect/cult has worked harder to deny and hide the origins and to its great detriment in my opinion. However you and your ilk (Todd for one) try to obfuscate and fudge the truth of the origins, the fact remains that many brave men and women, in face of huge opposition from friends, family and neighbours moved together under the organisational skills of WI and EC, inspired by the scriptures and I would say undoubtedly guided by God to form this fellowship that we know today. Insisting that there was no beginning, other than the usual old cobblers about the shores of Galilee makes a mockery of what these people faced and ultimately achieved. They should be lauded and celebrated, not swept under the carpet in shame due to staggering ignorance and a misguided notion that man cannot possibly have founded a fellowship that echoed that of church spoken of in Acts. Members of my family were moved by the struggles and sacrifices of these otherwise ordinary people, moved enough that the stories were passed down through the generations and spoken of with awe and wonderment that God could use these people in such a way to challenge the religious thinkers of the day. Members of my family were moved enough to give all they could to enable the fellowship to take shape in the way we know it and give shelter and more to countless that had been ostracised because of their convictions. They were happy to accept the founding of a fellowship by man, and were stirred up enough to move with them in the face of bitter opposition, to grow in faith with this new fellowship and make huge sacrifices themselves to enable the fellowship to grow. What elevates you and your ilk that makes the remarkable origins of the fellowship too prosaic for you? Rather than belly-aching about the Vaudois, the Waldenses and a foolish idea that Cherie is trying to destroy the fellowship, you ought to be grateful that there is an effort made to record the remarkable events that took place at the turn of the 20thC. Events that ought to inspire you enough to try to help the fellowship regain the momentum, the joy, the zeal of those amazing early days which only the most deluded amongst us would claim that the fellowship has never lost. And just a thought: did it ever occur to you and those of your ilk that there is the strongest temptation for disaffected exes to gleefully prick holes in the puffed up notions that this fellowship stretches back to Galilee? I suspect much of the denial of the wilfully ignorant fans flames of biased reporting that would otherwise not be apparent. September, I find this post rather frightening. The parts that I bolded show exactly why (along with other reasons) the early workers did not emphasize or talk about who may have implemented the ideas they gathered from the Bible. They were not looking for recognition for themselves or their peers. Their mission was to point to Christ and the Bible and gather others who believed the same things.
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Post by todd on Jun 15, 2009 20:03:24 GMT -5
Todd, this post by you is a perfect example of your comprehension issues. You deliberately misunderstand and make wild assumptions and you also bait people. I just dont care to use my time to unravel your errors in understanding. But could you if you had time? I didn't actually assume anything because I already knew what you knew. I was just commenting about how you were acting. You should try being more consistant and not contradictory with your "facts". What I said was that you were acting like you had nothing to do with him. If saying "It's like you have a crush on him/her?" isn't some sort of act that you don't know his sex then I don't know what is. I am probably just being overly skeptical. He's a good chap. He does love and defend you vehemently, and you both have very similar writing styles, so it is probably a pity that you don't know him better. Thanks, I was feeling bad. Shouldn't you clear up some of the confusion though? You have presented some true and good information, and also some false and bad information. Lets hope that people are able to discern for themselves. The need is now. PS no you didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 20:05:24 GMT -5
Hi Cherie, could you, in your email banter with them, made mention of my request? I want to review these books on a future web site, and would like to be able to say whether this request was respected.
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