Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:17:10 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2009 16:17:10 GMT -5
Nathan, you're bang on. I'm not thinking straight. I'm thinking "Irvine."
This thread has caused me to take up smoking. I'm now going to get a one-way ticket to Palestine, at least as far as this thread is concerned.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:29:36 GMT -5
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 11, 2009 16:29:36 GMT -5
This thread has caused me to take up smoking. I'm now going to get a one-way ticket to Palestine, at least as far as this thread is concerned. ;D Welcome to religion, ram.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:36:42 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 16:36:42 GMT -5
I stand in awe of the power of Satan to take a movement of sincere, humble, zealous and pasionate young people seeking to win souls for Christ and turn it, over time, into a religious system - the very thing they tried to get away from. hi JO! Is that kind of how you perceive the development of the Catholic Church in the early centuries? How about Paul's movement...I think of the church epistles of Timothy and Titus...are they suspect, teaching the formation of a religious system? I suppose the Catholic Church grew out of a simple assemby of Christ-worshippers at some time. I suspect any faults we find in Paul's writings are more to do with a lack of understanding of culture and language than with Paul himself. I think he would be horrified to see what people have done with his writings over the centuries.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:37:15 GMT -5
Post by someguy on Feb 11, 2009 16:37:15 GMT -5
Nathan wrote ~~ What class system are you talking about here? Yes, I agree with you that the workers need to encourage the friends to be led of the Spirit in all things, THINK, make decisions for themselves and less dependance on the workers. That's because you changed your wording. ~~~ I didn't change anything. If you had read the whole thread and you see I encourage others to be Spirit LED first.
How about Spirit led only? How can one be led by the Spirit and workers? Personally I am not dependant on the workers for any guidance whatsoever. Afterall they are human. I chose to be led by God, not man. My salvation is in Christ and in His leading and the Spirits leading. Not the workers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:45:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2009 16:45:32 GMT -5
Thanks DC and Nathan. Just have time to make this post before I get on the flight to Jerusalem. Maybe Willie is still out there waiting on me to become his companion in order to fulfill his Revelations two witnesses prophecy?
If so, I'll let you know if I "find" him "founding !" We don't want him to "start" "forming" something, or "leading" the "way."
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:51:57 GMT -5
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 11, 2009 16:51:57 GMT -5
Tell you what, Ram, if you will follow Willie to the planets where he wishes to spread the gospel into the outer reaches of the universe, THEN I will recognize him as a founder. I mean, more so than I already do.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 16:55:33 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 16:55:33 GMT -5
RE Sharon: Makes quite a bit of difference, according to the Bible. Falls under the subjects of: bearing false witness unrepented sins; Last, but not least, liars aren’t in heaven. Sharon wrote You’re right--I haven’t read a description on this board for Wm Irvine’s role in the 2x2 church that was any more right, correct or true than “founder.” I never a problem with the definition of the word “founder”—the definition for founder is quite simple. Someone posted the dictionary definition, and I thought it covered WmI’s role quite well. Main Entry: 1found•er Function: noun Etymology: 4found Date: 14th century : one that founds or establishes ------------------ Main Entry: 4found Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French funder, fonder, from Latin fundare, from fundus bottom — more at BOTTOM Date: 13th century 1 : to take the first steps in building 2 : to set or ground on something solid : BASE 3 : to establish (as an institution) often with provision for future maintenance I fail to see why the noun "Founder" should be a problem. They claimed there was no earthy founder. Now when the name of the earthly founder is available and known, and we want to substitute the founder's name -- there is all this balking (straining at gnats) And talk of where is appropriate and in apprpriate to discuss the founder's name and role in the church. Go figure. Cleardays post re "vested interest" is so right on...and the possibiity of many workers walking out over this issue is possiby of more concern to the higher ups than losing the friends. Cherie, don't ask for such things as for us to come up with an "agreed upon definition of founder" if you don't want one. I tried to help you with this topic....you apparently didn't really mean you wanted us to do anything other then to wrangle the subject over and over again, did you?
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 17:18:49 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 11, 2009 17:18:49 GMT -5
Maybe I have alzheimers--but I don't recall asking for a unified definition of a founder...did I??? I recall someone posting the dictionary definition and it made perfect sense to me...I had no problem with the title being applied to WmI.
I recall some others were putting together a statement...about what how they viewed WmI's role--or how they viewed the start-up...and the ball was dropped on that...
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 17:25:17 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 17:25:17 GMT -5
I agree with your doubts about Irvine,and these were some of the words expressed by George W. This too came into play with his expulsion. Lin, I think what is not taken into consideration by a majority of people is the eventual evidence of WI's mental illness! He had delusions of grandeur, he thought he was one of the "two witnesses"...now isn't that some of Cherie's facts? So if he showed that far-fetched delusion of grandeur then, then it is highly probably that "delusions of grandeur" was a long-time problem with him. But with a seminary education, he utilized his biblical education to enhance his delusions of grandeur....the sad part of it was he was "close" to what the scriptures did said as in regards to the itinerant ministry setup in Mt. 10, wasn't he? NOW wait a min. before you all go off halfcocked at me saying this...I'm leading up to something...just keep your nerves calm....OK? He had this grandiose idea of starting something, and likely it was an "experiment" to him to see just how "high" it would take him in the religious world. Well, seems it served him well for a few years at least....and I don't think he suffered too much depreciation even after being excommunicated for he got to go where he so desired! Did he not? The sad part of it all, he most likely presented it as "a religiously educated man's" idea and those who were "lay ministers" under him, fell for it because they evidently held him up at better equipped to "understand the scriptures" then they....after all he was educated and most of them were not....also he had experience as a coal miner supervision also did he not. He'd learned how to spur others on to do his bidding, had he not? The spiritual zeal of the workers besides WI can be attributed to them for righteousness sake.....it also appears that when a very young Joseph Kerr introduced the LWD after being very upset at another denominational minister, that again WI saw it as a way to "be one-ups-man"! Again, his delusional self at work! Anything to make himself "top man". Better then someone else. How much his input caused this to become a doctrine is still pretty much a question, though we did read the letter from one worker who was excommunicated because he didn't believe in the LWD and it was WI who rudely and so very coldly thrust him out! When you add it all up, it came from a man with mental illness, utilizing his education and supervisory status and experiences to go above and beyond what the scriptures actually seem to mean...I'm meaning that Mt. 10 's commission was over and done by the time Jesus was crucified.....there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Mt. 28's commission entered into the picture...or I may have missed it??? Why the majority of workers accepted and continued the LWD is beyond me other then for some reason it appealed? Maybe that was just part of the mindset of each denomination in those days....I know that the Catholics sure made that a point to the point of murder in the first centuries! Just some medical reasoning here...maybe not so, because with WI dead there is no way to really know!
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 17:47:44 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 17:47:44 GMT -5
Maybe I have alzheimers--but I don't recall asking for a unified definition of a founder...did I??? I recall someone posting the dictionary definition and it made perfect sense to me...I had no problem with the title being applied to WmI. I recall some others were putting together a statement...about what how they viewed WmI's role--or how they viewed the star-up...and the ball was dropped on that... We've established that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in. From that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc. Does anyone have a problem with this?
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 17:55:33 GMT -5
Post by someguy on Feb 11, 2009 17:55:33 GMT -5
Maybe I have alzheimers--but I don't recall asking for a unified definition of a founder...did I??? I recall someone posting the dictionary definition and it made perfect sense to me...I had no problem with the title being applied to WmI. I recall some others were putting together a statement...about what how they viewed WmI's role--or how they viewed the star-up...and the ball was dropped on that... We've established that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in. From that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc. Does anyone have a problem with this? Nope, sounds about right
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 17:56:32 GMT -5
Post by lin on Feb 11, 2009 17:56:32 GMT -5
I have no problem with any of this. It has absolutely no effect on my service to God. I guarantee this will not be the last time this rehash will appear. Give it maybe two weeks. That is if this one ever ends.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 18:22:19 GMT -5
Post by ronhall on Feb 11, 2009 18:22:19 GMT -5
Nathan, you're bang on. I'm not thinking straight. I'm thinking "Irvine." This thread has caused me to take up smoking. I'm now going to get a one-way ticket to Palestine, at least as far as this thread is concerned.I'd highly recommend you didn't take up smoking nor do I recommend you purchase a one-way ticket to Palestine. Instead I'd advise spending an hour or so studying and preparing something edifying for the Wednesday night Bible Study in your area tonight. You never know, someone might come away enlightened in your little meeting because a sincere effort was made to gain a better understanding of the subject at hand. And it won't be blowing smoke, either.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 18:23:22 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 18:23:22 GMT -5
I have no problem with any of this. It has absolutely no effect on my service to God. I guarantee this will not be the last time this rehash will appear. Give it maybe two weeks. That is if this one ever ends. This will only end when the workers and friends stop pretending their church has no earthly founder. Lin, I can say "me too" to your statement that the history "has absolutely no effect on my service to God". But how can that be a reason for lying about the beginnings?
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 18:24:24 GMT -5
Post by selah on Feb 11, 2009 18:24:24 GMT -5
Hi Nathan....
Although I think the f&w fellowship could be a wonderful church (small c)within the Church (big C), I believe it went off the rails when it decided that:
1. having a church (small c)/organization that carried out its functional activities in the same way as the 1st century disciples did, was a requirement of God.
2. it needed to separate itself from the rest of the body of Christ.
3. that people could only partake of salvation if they heard the news of Christ through the f&w workers.
4. personal convictions concerning non-essential issues were actually essential issues to be administered and monitored by a hierarchy of power.
This is not the complete list, but these are things that come to mind right now.
Blessings, Linda
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 18:29:36 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 18:29:36 GMT -5
We've established that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in. From that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc. Does anyone have a problem with this? 1) Someguy wrote: Nope, sound about right. ~~~ The most important question to ask is this... Did God move these early workers and the friends to "RETURN" to the METHODS and purpose TAUGHT by and CARRIED out by Christ and His apostles.
Was God in the movement? and with the workers and the friends who were deeply concerned about spiritual things and became fully CONVINCED that they should Continue in Christ and His apostles true way.
Without the approval of God and His leading in the movement EVERYTHING is meaningless. It doesn't matter whether you believe WI the founder or NOT.Nate, whether or not God was in the movement has nothing to do with lying about the beginnings of our fellowship.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 18:36:21 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 18:36:21 GMT -5
George Walker is no longer with us. I'm more concerned about workers and friends who lie about the beginnings today. Nate, do you agree that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in.....and from that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc? Are you honest enough to acknowledge that Nathan? This will only end when the workers and friends stop pretending their church has no earthly founder. Lin, I can say "me too" to your statement that the history "has absolutely no effect on my service to God". But how can that be a reason for lying about the beginnings? Do you believe George Walker (1899) lied about the beginning when he wrote to Selective Service authorities in 1914?
.... We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members. They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a RETURN to the METHODS and purpose TAUGHT and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them."
As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian ere met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history. Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary. The meetings continue to the present in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders, Baptism by Immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced. In the year 1903 ministers of this Christian body began their labors in the United States and in the year 1904 to Canada. In these and subsequent years through the preaching of the Gospel, assemblies were formed in homes as already described. In the 1906 the first annual conventions were held in North America, and from this beginning the number of Ministers in North America has grown to over 900 about equally divided between men and women; the assemblies for regular worship to over 3,000; and the annual convention over to 100. Those who enter this ministry must first establish very definitely their religious character and have fulfilled the other qualifications consider necessary. They MUST be upright and of high principle having proven their ability to earn their living in an honorable and must have taken an active part in the Church meetings regularly attended. If and when are considered to have qualified, and are then appointed and assisted an experienced minister in an evangelistic work in ministering to assemblies of Christians. From the time of appointment, ministers devote their entire time and talents to the work of the ministry. If for sufficient reason anyone thus accepted later prove to be Unworthy or Unfit he can not continue in this ministry. Signed George Walker
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:25:50 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 19:25:50 GMT -5
Thanks DC and Nathan. Just have time to make this post before I get on the flight to Jerusalem. Maybe Willie is still out there waiting on me to become his companion in order to fulfill his Revelations two witnesses prophecy? If so, I'll let you know if I "find" him "founding !" We don't want him to "start" "forming" something, or "leading" the "way." Or "originating"?
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:31:08 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 19:31:08 GMT -5
1) George Walker is no longer with us. I'm more concerned about workers and friends who lie about the beginnings today. Nate, do you agree that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in.....and from that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc? Are you honest enough to acknowledge that Nathan? ~~~ Wilson Mclung is no longer with us either so all of the workers in the early days. You and I will NEVER know the truth of the beginning....Why, do you want me to be honest and acknowledge in something either you, me or anyone else today who were NOT there in the beginning or KNOW what really had taken place.
OK, I believe George Walker told the truth when he wrote to Selective Service authorities. He certainly didn't pretend his organization was founded on the shores of Galilee. Now will you agree that William Irvine started the mission Wilson McClung, George Walker, Jack Carrol etc worked in.....and from that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc?
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:37:54 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 19:37:54 GMT -5
Ms. Siwells, Does Mr. Irvine have a mental illness documented? or are you surmising? If so where? is religion mental illness? In the F&W fellowship, those who have left the fellowship or are considered 'weak' in the faith, are often referred to as having mental illnesses. The label, mental illness, seems to fly quite readily on those who do not completely support the system. When people cannot be controlled by the system, many labels have been applied such as unwilling, spiritually dead, God doesn't work with spiritually dead people, lost out, of Satan, mentally ill, and so on........ Periodot, you apparently again are jumping to some foregone conclusions for you apparently DID NOT READ THIS PART OF THAT POST "So if he showed that far-fetched delusion of grandeur then, then it is highly probably that "delusions of grandeur" was a long-time problem with him. But with a seminary education, he utilized his biblical education to enhance his delusions of grandeur....the sad part of it was he was "close" to what the scriptures did said as in regards to the itinerant ministry setup in Mt. 10, wasn't he? NOW wait a min. before you all go off halfcocked at me saying this...I'm leading up to something...just keep your nerves calm....OK?" What does the last two lines say? Thank you!
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:41:39 GMT -5
Post by someguy on Feb 11, 2009 19:41:39 GMT -5
OK, I believe George Walker told the truth when he wrote to Selective Service authorities in 1914. He certainly didn't pretend his organization was founded on the shores of Galilee. Now will you agree that William Irvine started the mission Wilson McClung, George Walker, Jack Carrol etc worked in.....and from that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc? Good luck getting Nate to admit anything.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:45:38 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 19:45:38 GMT -5
"George Walker is no longer with us. I'm more concerned about workers and friends who lie about the beginnings today.
Nate, do you agree that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in.....and from that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc?"
jo! This is my biggest concern about labeling WI as the "founder" of what is known today as the truths' fellowship or 2x2's or workers' church.....because what has evolved does in no wise seem to measure up to what the "facts" purport it to be nor what I can remember from those early day workers own testimony. Somewhere along the line what WI founded died out and maybe purposely so, I'm not certain.
But the issues that seem to have been the crux of all the exits and offenses were not so within the early day workers ambitions. Was it the "distancing" from WI that caused the problems? Perhaps it did! And as we've read on this board and this topic, what WI had to start with seemed to be "flawed" from a biblical understanding to start with.
Was it because of the flawed understanding? Or a leading personality with problems of delusions of grandeur to start with or something entirely foreign to both of that and an evolution of a system that is simply flawed by "men's commandments" becoming the doctrine?
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:48:33 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 11, 2009 19:48:33 GMT -5
Sharon wrote: The "seminary education" you speak of relative to WmI is not a certain fact. When I wrote them to confirm his attendance, the college was unable to find in their records that WmI had attended at any time.
1893: BIBLE TRAINING INSTITUTE. John Long wrote in his Journal: "After spending two years in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, he joined the Faith Mission..." Also: "He entered John Anderson's classes in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow A.D. 1894."
Goodhand Pattison wrote in Accounts of the Early Days, “Sometime after his conversion, W.I. spent a term of some years I think, in what is known as the ‘Bible Institute’, meanwhile getting to know some of the aims and working of the F.M. (Faith Mission), he determined to throw in his lot with them, as being the best he could see. . .”
The following statement of Wm. Irvine has been understood to mean that the Bible college refused him admission, so he sat in the back of the class and listened in:
“...was not satisfied with my knowledge of the book. . . In September they refused to receive me as a student in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, though I attended the classes from outside. . . I benefited in the Bible Institute by getting to know the book according to the teachings of the best and most holy and evangelical missionary people in the world.”(October 13, 1920 Letter to Dunbars).
The Glasgow Bible College in Glasgow, Scotland was founded in 1892, and was formerly called The Bible Training Institute. Their first President was John Anderson, a shipping agent from Androssan, Ayshire.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:48:52 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 19:48:52 GMT -5
Ms Siwells, your ability to diagnose mental illness is quite common for members of the F&W fellowship even without licensure to qualify. Again, you still apparently have not read that posting adequately...what does this say and it ends the whole post. "Just some medical reasoning here...maybe not so, because with WI dead there is no way to really know! " There is NO diagnoses made....just because you've a problem with me still being within the truth's fellowship is no reason for you to pick at me via this post.....if you've a personal problem with me take it to a private PM, please!
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:50:17 GMT -5
Post by JO on Feb 11, 2009 19:50:17 GMT -5
"George Walker is no longer with us. I'm more concerned about workers and friends who lie about the beginnings today. Nate, do you agree that William Irvine was the founder of the mission that Wilson McClung and his peers worked in.....and from that mission an organization evolved over time - Sunday AM meetings, a convention and special meetings system, overseers and workers' lists etc?" jo! This is my biggest concern about labeling WI as the "founder" of what is known today as the truths' fellowship or 2x2's or workers' church.....because what has evolved does in no wise seem to measure up to what the "facts" purport it to be nor what I can remember from those early day workers own testimony. Somewhere along the line what WI founded died out and maybe purposely so, I'm not certain. But the issues that seem to have been the crux of all the exits and offenses were not so within the early day workers ambitions. Was it the "distancing" from WI that caused the problems? Perhaps it did! And as we've read on this board and this topic, what WI had to start with seemed to be "flawed" from a biblical understanding to start with. Was it because of the flawed understanding? Or a leading personality with problems of delusions of grandeur to start with or something entirely foreign to both of that and an evolution of a system that is simply flawed by "men's commandments" becoming the doctrine? I'd like to discuss this with you, but first I'm trying to get Nathan to acknowledge that William Irvine started the mission Wilson McClung, George Walker, Jack Carrol etc worked in.
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:55:15 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 19:55:15 GMT -5
“...was not satisfied with my knowledge of the book. . . In September they refused to receive me as a student in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, though I attended the classes from outside. . . I benefited in the Bible Institute by getting to know the book according to the teachings of the best and most holy and evangelical missionary people in the world.”(October 13, 1920 Letter to Dunbars). "
Just some more of the "facts" that are available that enhance the QUESTION of WI's delusions of grandeur and how much that affected what he really did do. It is apparent in his life just a short few years later that his delusions of grandeur of being one of the two witnesses in REvs. might have been something going on all along! JMOP and that's not worth a whole lot but brings some things into a more reasonable picture of how things got out of hand!
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 19:59:30 GMT -5
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 11, 2009 19:59:30 GMT -5
this thread has sure taken a humorous turn
|
|
|
FOUNDER
Feb 11, 2009 20:05:14 GMT -5
Post by Sharon on Feb 11, 2009 20:05:14 GMT -5
this thread has sure taken a humorous turn Thank you, I think!
|
|