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Post by lovejoy on Dec 8, 2008 13:12:38 GMT -5
In your lifetime what changes have you noticed in the unchanging way?
eg. When I was growing up sport was considered taboo and spoken against as something sinful. Now it seems to be practised and encouraged.
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Post by toffeecrumble on Dec 9, 2008 1:53:18 GMT -5
The dress code seems to have changed. Women, especially younger ones dress like the rest of the world! Even more revealing than most religious denominations. Some would not get away with wearing at work what they turn up to meeting in!
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Post by melissa on Dec 9, 2008 3:55:36 GMT -5
Radios are in use where they used to be a cause for criticism and worse.
Long hair is not in evidence as it used to be. Even middle aged women have hair barely long enough to pin up!
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Post by izzi on Dec 9, 2008 4:03:39 GMT -5
In South Africa, we wore hats unril the 1980's, even later - the dates are hazy. But hats used to be God's will, then he changed his mind rather suddenly. I believe South Africa was a bit behind with the hat thing.
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Post by melissa on Dec 9, 2008 4:33:18 GMT -5
So are you saying that God was a bit behind with his will???!!!??
You are right, hats for females are no longer part of the performance and haven't been for some time, now in places where they were an enforced item.
What about christmas trees? I see some where they would have been a cause for discord a few years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2008 4:37:24 GMT -5
You've heard the saying "if the hat fits....."
Now salvation is about fitting in. Although God's ways do not change, his ways do ! Does that make sense ? To have salvation you must fit in with whatever is accepted or rejected at the current time. At one time a woman had to wear a hat to "fit in" and thus be saved. Of course, her hair had to be in a bun under the hat. Now, woman don't wear hats. If a woman wore a hat to meeting nowadays, she would be regarded as not fitting in. Her salvation would be in question.
Back in Irvine's time there was pressure for men to fit in by growing beards. Round about the 1960's or later, the clean-shaven look was part odf the salvation appearance and any who grew beards except for medical or other exceptional reasons, were not fitting in,.
So don't knock hats. They have to fit !
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Post by izzi on Dec 9, 2008 5:54:42 GMT -5
Christmas trees i don't remember being an issue here. Some friends did have them, some didn't. My dad would sometimes go and pick a branch off any tree - one year I remember a messy old silver sage in the diningroom, which was upstairs and a kind of living room, while the mtn room was downstairs. My dad dressed like Santa and we decorated the silver sage and we all had enormous fun. Christmas in those years was in the middle of convention time so no workers present, but in any case, I cannot imagine any of them taking my dad on. Not because he was fierce, (though he was a forceful man) but because of his great humility and down-to-earth genuiness. He had his own style of dress. Because of a heart condition he couldn't wear ties as he felt they choked him, so he had a suit made with an open collar - a kind of safari suit with long sleeves, and everyone knew that's what he wore to convention and no-one ever complained. My father was such an unusual, warm person, with a gentleness not often found among elders. At home he wore shorts and a vest in hot weather. The workers adored him, and they very, very often said that my parents' home was a place of refuge, where they could walk around in a towel if they wished. Their home was in a rather remote seaside village.
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Post by melissa on Dec 9, 2008 6:21:03 GMT -5
You've heard the saying "if the hat fits....." Now salvation is about fitting in. Although God's ways do not change, his ways do ! Does that make sense ? To have salvation you must fit in with whatever is accepted or rejected at the current time. At one time a woman had to wear a hat to "fit in" and thus be saved. Of course, her hair had to be in a bun under the hat. Now, woman don't wear hats. If a woman wore a hat to meeting nowadays, she would be regarded as not fitting in. Her salvation would be in question. Back in Irvine's time there was pressure for men to fit in by growing beards. Round about the 1960's or later, the clean-shaven look was part odf the salvation appearance and any who grew beards except for medical or other exceptional reasons, were not fitting in,. So don't knock hats. They have to fit ! Are you feeling OK, Ram?
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Post by september on Dec 9, 2008 6:36:13 GMT -5
You've heard the saying "if the hat fits....." Now salvation is about fitting in. Although God's ways do not change, his ways do ! Does that make sense ? To have salvation you must fit in with whatever is accepted or rejected at the current time. At one time a woman had to wear a hat to "fit in" and thus be saved. Of course, her hair had to be in a bun under the hat. Now, woman don't wear hats. If a woman wore a hat to meeting nowadays, she would be regarded as not fitting in. Her salvation would be in question. Back in Irvine's time there was pressure for men to fit in by growing beards. Round about the 1960's or later, the clean-shaven look was part odf the salvation appearance and any who grew beards except for medical or other exceptional reasons, were not fitting in,. So don't knock hats. They have to fit ! Are you feeling OK, Ram? I'd imagine he is Melissa! Actually, I think Ram is spot on here and I'm celebrating it today by having my hair chopped off! He's right about hats in meetings now- three sisters wore hats to Christmas meetings in Ireland one year (probably about 10 years ago now) and were castigated by the workers and friends alike for being "fashionable" yet barely 3 years prior to that I clearly recall Hilda Landen sporting an uncomfortable-looking electric blue ensemble complete with electric blue pill box hat in the mission.
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Post by melissa on Dec 9, 2008 6:45:33 GMT -5
Glad I do not serve a schizophrenic, rule making God who doesn't know his own mind!!!
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Post by september on Dec 9, 2008 6:48:51 GMT -5
In your lifetime what changes have you noticed in the unchanging way? eg. When I was growing up sport was considered taboo and spoken against as something sinful. Now it seems to be practised and encouraged. Watching television via the internet and openly discussing it. Going to watch professional football matches and again, being quite open about it. Within the past 10 years, some poor innocent from Co. Armagh got his picture in the paper at a rugby international and was carpeted by Tommie G for being at the match. It was all the more interesting as the young chap apparently wasn't professing at the time. For some reason, car rallying has always been acceptable in Ireland although participation is not encouraged. 10 years ago football was organised amongst the friends one night a week in Belfast and within a short space of time, was discouraged by the workers. It was revived again in recent years and there's not been a squeak about it and indeed, there is an annual game played in Craigavon every Christmas/New Year where the organiser Jonathan McMinn rents the pitch for £100 approx and charges the participants (by invitation only as opposed to the earlier "come-as-you-wish" games which were discouraged) £20 a head. The workers are au fait with the situation yet haven't said anything about the obvious commerce involved nor the exclusive nature.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2008 9:24:53 GMT -5
You've heard the saying "if the hat fits....." Now salvation is about fitting in. Although God's ways do not change, his ways do ! Does that make sense ? To have salvation you must fit in with whatever is accepted or rejected at the current time. At one time a woman had to wear a hat to "fit in" and thus be saved. Of course, her hair had to be in a bun under the hat. Now, woman don't wear hats. If a woman wore a hat to meeting nowadays, she would be regarded as not fitting in. Her salvation would be in question. Back in Irvine's time there was pressure for men to fit in by growing beards. Round about the 1960's or later, the clean-shaven look was part odf the salvation appearance and any who grew beards except for medical or other exceptional reasons, were not fitting in,. So don't knock hats. They have to fit ! Are you feeling OK, Ram? Can I get back to you on that one Mel ? I need to phone the workers to see what feeling "fits in" best.
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Post by melissa on Dec 10, 2008 12:30:34 GMT -5
That's a relief, I thought you'd lost it. Don't forget to letus know the latest trend.....
Izzi, I enjoy your posts. It must have been great growing up in your home.
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Post by jphillips on Dec 12, 2008 7:53:30 GMT -5
Wonder if divorces are cropping up within the faith in Ire?UK like in the states? They were unheard of in the 50s, 60s and early 70s in USA.
The suspicions of sexual affairs was also unheard of in that era, but not today.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 22, 2008 23:05:51 GMT -5
One of the major changes in the WAY that I have witnessed is that many professing folks are partaking in a worldly activity or two and continue to attend meeting! They; go to movies and discuss them, play team sports and invite other professing friends to attend the games, drink alcohol at home and in public, celebrate Christmas through gift giving and mailing of cards, woman cut their hair and get their eyebrows plucked, woman get fake finger and toe nails, men grow beards, men wear shorts while the woman wear pants, woman wear their hair down, woman wear make-up, young woman get engagement rings instead of watches, weddings are large shows instead of private humble gatherings, bridal showers are common and lingerie is a popular gift.
I guess, "Life's about changes nothing ever stays the same!"
What hasn't changed is... T.V.'s are hidden in a closet, they are a very judgmental people, they are mistaken in believing they are the only way, they follow preachers who have not studied theology, they are closed minded, they are extremely nice to your face and talk behind your back, they have a social ranking among the followers, they are held together because they like being part of a social group or it's a family conviction, they surround themselves with people who think just like them, their ministers are focused on correcting their flock, there is very little encouragement to enjoy life, they ostracize members of their own family if they don't attend meeting, they cover-up the failures of their professing friends and families, but take joy in seeing their non-professing family members struggle, they dress in expensive clothing and place emphasis on appearances, if they are members of your family and you don't profess...they will come to your town and never stop by to visit, however if you go to their town....you are expected to pay them a visit.
I guess, "In-spite of the pain, we just need to love them."
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Post by melissa on Dec 23, 2008 12:23:25 GMT -5
Sadly, I have to agree with most of what you've said here, Puzzled, except for the false toe nails!!!!! ( I must confess I have not yet noticed any of those!)
I wish it wasn't so, how I wish! For years I thought it was me who was out of line with the thinking etc. the odd one out...... until I began to read here on these boards and a few others. Sooooooo Sorry!
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Post by puzzled on Dec 24, 2008 10:11:25 GMT -5
Melissa,
Thank you for the kind response! Writing this post was difficult, mainly because knowing these truths is one thing, but seeing the facts in text is another. My husband saw me while I was writing the post and commented, that I looked angry. My arms were folded and I had a scowl on my face.
I guess what is hard for me is that I left the truth about 12 years ago mainly because I couldn't live by the strict rules, I was very depressed, I needed to find out who I was. I missed the friends terribly, I went from having many of friends to having only a few. I was heartbroken, but I couldn't lead a double life. My conscience wouldn't allow it. So, I stayed away.
Now, many of the friends are bending the rules, and staying in the fellowship. They seem to support eachother in their wayward activities. I suppose they can't live the strict lifestyle anymore than I could, so they find themselves taking little baby steps to freedom.
I attended to a few professing weddings in the last 5 years. The day before the wedding the the entire wedding party, except the guys of course, had a pedicure party! In which they went to a salon and were pampered.
On the wedding day, there were many beautifully manicured French tip toe nails in the celebration, which were not covered with black stocking!
Thank you for listening, expressing myslef in this way is healthy for me.
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Post by melissa on Dec 25, 2008 8:23:52 GMT -5
My dear Puzzled, Your post breaks my heart, again. If only I could tell you, if I had words enough.
I tried to live the WAY, when I was young, and failed. The unbearably strict rules got in the way. I saw myself as the evil one, the unwilling one, the disobedient one. I lived with a broken heart when I exed myself. Who knows the torture of living the condemned life because of what I knew.
Many people across continents have done so only to return on the occasion of a wedding/ funeral/ other occasion to see that the very things you exed yourself over, or worse still, in some cases, were exed over, have all been reversed. Even workers do not uphold the absolutely necessary stumbling blocks that were put in your way and in mine.
Where's the sense in that?
Until I saw all the changes, I might have thought that returning was the only way to heaven.
I can relate to what you posted about needing to find out who you were. There is too much intensity and momentum at times in the way, for anyone to be able to take a step back and take a good look at oneself/ourselves to see where we are heading.
The worldly activities are not considered wayward any more and most things are now openly acceptable by many workers, but it still depends on your area/region.
Either they were right or wrong. How can right change suddenly?
It is quite sickening that we have been gazumped!
Ask for reasons and we are told "The older workers made mistakes."
I'd say they DID, INDEED. Someone did.
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Post by lin on Dec 25, 2008 10:24:00 GMT -5
Sad to say that all of these outward rules are not true righteousness. The kingdom of God is within. The beautiful reflection of an inward working of the spirit,that moves us to do things because we love.
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Post by pianoman on Dec 26, 2008 2:13:26 GMT -5
My Irish blood brings me here, and Ram and I have been going at one another, in a very amusing and funny way. Not at all adversarial in nature, We email and joke and he has a marvelous sense of humor as do I.
Lin has it nailed and I just wanted to elaborate on what he is saying.
Yes the F&W's are on computers now, and you can watch TV shows on the PC.
Yes some drink wine at meals.
HERE IS MY MAIN POINT ON THIS SUBJECT!!!
There are two plains we live on, the natural and the spiritual.
Anything, that is common and decent, used in moderation is not sinful. Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach. Jesus drank wine. DON'T GO TO EXCESS!!
The spiritual realm is of the spirit, and our direct relationship with God. We can not get enough of God's spirit in our lives.
I know it seems hypocritical to watch a TV that is hidden in a closet, or on your computer. These things are personal choices that people make.
Professing simply means that one has chosen to Profess their desire to follow Jesus. Not man. Why can't we do this without meetings? I do.
Another point I want to make is that I know the kingdom or "way" will never be perfect, it has the human factor in it.
love and peace of God to all, Pianoman
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Post by lin on Dec 26, 2008 9:15:38 GMT -5
One sign of being alive is we grow and growing often means change
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Post by puzzled on Dec 26, 2008 12:00:11 GMT -5
Dear Melissa, lin, and Pianoman,
I have so enjoyed reading your posts! Thank you for sharing and caring. It is very pleasant to converse with others who understand my experience, and are willing to share their wisdom. I have greatly benefited from reflecting upon your views!!!!
I consider myself a spiritual person, but not religious. I meditate once daily, and strive to live a pure life. I have come to enjoy Zen teachings. However, I believe I will never be able to join an organization which strives to mold it followers by taking over their minds and their lifestyle. I will always retain my freedom.
I believe that there is a being which we can't see. I am not sure if it's purpose, I just know that it exists. People all over the world have given it various names, I prefer not to classify the being with a title. I just know it's real. I strive to enjoy it's presence and live in harmony with it.
I realize this seems really odd, but it is truly what's in my heart and it gives me peace.
My sincere gratitude to all!
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alana
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Post by alana on Dec 26, 2008 12:45:14 GMT -5
You have given us a lot to think about, Puzzled, as have, Lin,Pianoman and many others. It is good to learn other perspectives and to broaden our views. I am often reluctant and afraid to do this. It shakes the ground i am standing on!
Thanks and keep posting!
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Post by lin on Dec 27, 2008 20:48:07 GMT -5
God doesn't put us in a mold to make us his vessel. He does want to put this lump of clay that we are on his potters wheel and shape us after his thoughts. It has been said in making a vessel on the wheel it takes a finger on the inside of the vessel as well as the outside to shape it. I like that picture. We can't have one without the other.
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Post by freespirit on Dec 27, 2008 23:44:51 GMT -5
I attended to a few professing weddings in the last 5 years. The day before the wedding the the entire wedding party, except the guys of course, had a pedicure party! In which they went to a salon and were pampered. On the wedding day, there were many beautifully manicured French tip toe nails in the celebration, which were not covered with black stocking! Esther 2:9 The girl pleased him and won his favor. Immediately he provided her with her beauty treatments and special food. He assigned to her seven maids selected from the king's palace and moved her and her maids into the best place in the harem. Jeremiah 2:32 Does a maiden forget her jewelry, a bride her wedding ornaments?
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Post by toffeecrumble on Dec 29, 2008 12:09:09 GMT -5
If you are a 2x2 you will be asked to forget your jewelry. Try wearing it and see how long before you are approached with the request to remove it!
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Post by freespirit on Dec 29, 2008 14:28:24 GMT -5
If you are a 2x2 you will be asked to forget your jewelry. Try wearing it and see how long before you are approached with the request to remove it! I have thought about this some and IMO the attitude of wearing jewelry for the express purpose of seeing how long one is approached--as if to spite someone and purposefully cause contention--is very immature. If a woman wishes to wear jewelry--especially something meaningful such as a ring or bracelet that her husband has given to her--then she should put it on and wear it like Rebecca did the jewelry that Isaac sent to her--with the purpose of honoring her mate. Jewelry should never be worn to spite another person or show someone up. Those don't seem like very good motivations to me. JMO. fs
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Post by september on Dec 29, 2008 17:54:46 GMT -5
If you are a 2x2 you will be asked to forget your jewelry. Try wearing it and see how long before you are approached with the request to remove it! I have thought about this some and IMO the attitude of wearing jewelry for the express purpose of seeing how long one is approached--as if to spite someone and purposefully cause contention--is very immature. If a woman wishes to wear jewelry--especially something meaningful such as a ring or bracelet that her husband has given to her--then she should put it on and wear it like Rebecca did the jewelry that Isaac sent to her--with the purpose of honoring her mate. Jewelry should never be worn to spite another person or show someone up. Those don't seem like very good motivations to me. JMO. fs How odd: I read TC's comment as a rhetorical question, not something spiteful or immature. TC, I know exactly what you mean and because one knows what the reaction will be, one tends not to wear jewellery, whether to honour one's mate or not.
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