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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 13:20:08 GMT -5
This almost suggests that there are Christians who believe in a broken line of God's work. Hmmm... I wonder what church they go to.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 9, 2009 13:26:27 GMT -5
It's interesting to me how many my wife and I work with and know deliberately have more imtimate fellowship type home meetings outside of formal church services. It's obvious some people have a hunger for singing, praying, and testimony in an intimate meeting setting. It's been especially noticable here with women only and men only meetings for bible studies etc. - probably because some men take "women keep silence in the church" very literally. That's kind of sad - interesting that the friends and workers "allowed" women to speak in, pray in, and lead meetings before they had the right to vote. Keeping women silent would leave a huge gap in intimate fellowship type meetings in my opinion, some of the nicest prayers I 've heard for the emblems were by women.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 9, 2009 13:28:34 GMT -5
This almost suggests that there are Christians who believe in a broken line of God's work. Hmmm... I wonder what church they go to. Have you ever believed that ilylo?
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 13:51:27 GMT -5
Do you know anyone who does?
You make it sound like your belief is at odds with some unspoken norm. The point is that your belief is, or should be, the norm. However, you belong to a church which claims the idea of that norm to mean itself, and no other churches.
Then after the truth about the history of the 2x2 church becomes known, one gets to listen to the lame "stump theory" from the platform. So, back to my earlier comment... I know which church they go to.
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Post by someguy on Jul 9, 2009 13:52:50 GMT -5
It's interesting to me how many my wife and I work with and know deliberately have more imtimate fellowship type home meetings outside of formal church services. It's obvious some people have a hunger for singing, praying, and testimony in an intimate meeting setting. It's been especially noticable here with women only and men only meetings for bible studies etc. - probably because some men take "women keep silence in the church" very literally. That's kind of sad - interesting that the friends and workers "allowed" women to speak in, pray in, and lead meetings before they had the right to vote. Keeping women silent would leave a huge gap in intimate fellowship type meetings in my opinion, some of the nicest prayers I 've heard for the emblems were by women. Have you ever been in a men only study or do you know anyone who has been to a women only study? Only curious because as far as I understand they are not because woman should be silent at all. Rather it provides a safe environment for women to talk about issues that they have that may or may not be men related. It allows them the ability to talk with potentially more freedom in what they may feel is a safer environment. and visa versa. I went to a young mens bible study for a while and it was quite lovely. Young men being very open about their personal struggles and asking for prayer and encouragement. I am quite certain many things they confessed wouldn't have been brought up should there have been young women there. Just so you know it is not like we are cutting edge or anything. There are still places in Ontario where the elders/workers don't like women to give thanks for the emblems. A good friend of mine moved there and in her first meeting gave thanks and afterwards the elder took her aside and told her (women don't give thanks for the emblems here). I have another friend who married an aussie. To this day she still has never given thanks for the emblems because that is a mans job. When my buddy was over in Oz (the area his wife came from) only men gave thanks for the emblems. Not once did a woman in the nine months he was there. I don't know, maybe it is an aussie thing or maybe just a regional thing? We should ask Bert.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 9, 2009 18:16:06 GMT -5
Do you know anyone who does? You make it sound like your belief is at odds with some unspoken norm. The point is that your belief is, or should be, the norm. However, you belong to a church which claims the idea of that norm to mean itself, and no other churches. Then after the truth about the history of the 2x2 church becomes known, one gets to listen to the lame "stump theory" from the platform. So, back to my earlier comment... I know which church they go to. You didn't answer. I haven't heard anyone say straight out they believed the line of God's work with people across time has been broken. The only person I've heard the stump theory from is you. It's true God's family is a one generation family. There are no broken lines. There's really no other way to look at it, yes, that should be the norm. Still I've never felt I "belong to a church", I belong to God; You're not your own you belong to God, he ransomed you from sin, with his precious blood He bought your soul, you're His you belong to Him. I fellowship with some who feel the same. ~ someguy, I'll put it this way, I know men that would not allow a woman to speak in a coed intimate home meeting setting they had control over, I know this because one said so during testimony when we invited the family to a meeting with us. He wanted to debate 1Cr 14:34 right there during testimony not even realising that chapter is about not disturbing the edification, exhortation, and comfort of a meeting with things like debate, asking questions, speaking in tongues without an interpreter, etc. It was kind of a sad thing, the wife and her sister came to us afterwords and said, "your hymns! there's so much meat in them". I can understand women wanting to meet away from authoritarian men. Never good for men to lord it over women just because they think they can. And about any who don't allow women to pray for emblems - it's their loss - and it is a loss, no doubt about that at all. A woman's brain is wired differently, or it's that they are from Venus or somthing, I don't know, but I love listening to them, it's interesting how they speak, pray, and think. We were to a meeting in Kansas when my wife was 25 and she prayed for the emblems. After the meeting the elder thanked her for it saying that not many women did that. Good thing my wife didn't know that. Anyone who is thankful for the memorial represented by the emblems should be able to pray for them.
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Post by someguy on Jul 9, 2009 18:28:57 GMT -5
someguy, I'll put it this way, I know men that would not allow a woman to speak in a coed intimate home meeting setting they had control over, I know this because one said so during testimony when we invited the family to a meeting with us. He wanted to debate 1Cr 14:34 right there during testimony not even realising that chapter is about not disturbing the edification, exhortation, and comfort of a meeting with things like debate, asking questions, speaking in tongues without an interpreter, etc. It was kind of a sad thing, the wife and her sister came to us afterwords and said, "your hymns! there's so much meat in them". I can understand women wanting to meet away from authoritarian men. Never good for men to lord it over women just because they think they can. And about any who don't allow women to pray for emblems - it's their loss - and it is a loss, no doubt about that at all. A woman's brain is wired differently, or it's that they are from Venus or somthing, I don't know, but I love listening to them, it's interesting how they speak, pray, and think. We were to a meeting in Kansas when my wife was 25 and she prayed for the emblems. After the meeting the elder thanked her for it saying that not many women did that. Good thing my wife didn't know that. Anyone who is thankful for the memorial represented by the emblems should be able to pray for them. Well Jesse I have no reason not to believe you I just find this rather sad. Having attended a bible study in town regularly for the past 6 months with my fiancee I can tell you not all Christian men feel that way. It was a co-ed study and functions similar to ours. Worship (singing), reading, and prayer to end. All spoke and all were respected. As for not permitting women to say thanks for the emblems I agree, it is their loss. Christ died for all, not just men, so surely we can all be filled with gratitude even our sisters.
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Post by StAnne on Jul 9, 2009 21:58:35 GMT -5
Because no one joins this church because of it's claims of it's origins. (Or at least no one with sense) Their reasons are much deeper. Who cares what happened a century ago? HUH??? Most people join a church because of it's origins one way or another. When they join they feel they can believe what is said about the origins. To claim an origin that is 'unbroken' back to the time of Christ is joining because of a belief in that statement. For others, joining a church who claims it's origins are 'based on' the life of Christ is a whole different scenario. That is what I grew up believing.... an unbroken line.... It was and is a lie and I am glad to hear that it is (for the most part) no longer being preached from the platform. Scott Scott, Scott, Scott, I can believe you grew up believing "an unbroken line", I and many others didn't, can *you* believe *that*?? Don't attribute a universal claim to the friends and workers that many did not make or believe. I absolutely believed it was an unbroken line as that is what was taught, many times over.
I am so happy to know the truth of it. (Pun intended.) That it is absolutely not the NT church of apostolic succession. But there's one that is.
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Post by Gene on Jul 9, 2009 22:01:44 GMT -5
With some trepidation I say this because I'm really not interested in stirring up any liberal, homosexual passions, or the wrath of any here who subscribe to this way of thinking. But yes there are people worldwide who believe gays are hellbound etc etc. And for different reasons. I won't say they're any more hellbound than another sinner, what I would say is to not acknowledge sin and to be so diligent in trying to pass it off as anything but, because it "feels good, or you think you're born this way, or you see nothing wrong with it, or whatever the case may be, well, hellbound comes to mind. In other words, whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not, or believe it or not, homosexuality is sinful and unnatural behavior, and God condemns it. So flaunting it and being proud of it rather than repenting, will put you just where the unrepentant sinner is. Hellbound. This is not just my opinion, it's scriptural. You can spend the rest of your life trying to change society's views on this, but fortunately, God's mind won't be changed because His word stands forever. scienceray.com/biology/gay-animals-on-parade/
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 22:03:49 GMT -5
You didn't answer. I did. I can't help that you didn't like it. I haven't heard anyone say straight out they believed the line of God's work with people across time has been broken. The only person I've heard the stump theory from is you. Then you obviously aren't paying attention to your own church leaders.
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Post by fred on Jul 10, 2009 4:24:39 GMT -5
Women in Oz are only permitted to give thanks for the emblems if there are no men present. There may have been times when they did but after an admonition at convention form the overseer this practice ceased. ( Actually a younger worker had asked me to encourage the women in our meeting to do so - the announcement at convention was a bit of a bombshell).
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 10, 2009 7:56:13 GMT -5
Yesterday at 5:16pm, Jesse_Lackman wrote: The stump theory sermon by Willie Pollock has long been on TTT at: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/pollock-stump.phpWillie Pollock's Stump Explanation: (Gap category) "First of all, I will tell you what I teach. I tell people that the Faith is a continuation of New Testament days. The word continuation means two things. It can mean there is no break and it also means a break in time no matter how long the break is, if you return to the same thing. We have what was in existence 2,000 years ago. I believe there was a break between N.T. times & today, but the same word & work has been revived. A wheat seed can remain on the shelf for 1,000 years and then be planted & grow & it will produce wheat. "If someone said there was a continual apostolic succession I doubt if that is accurate, but their statement does not change my salvation and relationship with God. Even if a person lied, that would have nothing to do with the Truth or our salvation. Truth does not have to be in people (although hopefully it always is) because it is in God & in Christ & in his eternal word. In Ps 11:3, if foundations are destroyed, the righteous would have nothing to build on. The temple of Solomon had huge foundation stones laid under the surface and the temple was later burned but likely the foundation stones were still there when the temple was rebuilt in the book of Ezra. We know where to build today because Christ laid the foundation stones & they are still there. (Willie Pollock, Worker, 1988 Gilroy #1 CA Conv.) Everett Swanson, Canadian Worker, communication w/Cindy Brown 1995 "There has NOT been a continuity from Jesus time until now, but we feel there was a stump left some-where--but today, there is a tree. God's work may have to go underground again, but there is a tree of fellowship today." Willie Pollock, Worker, 1988 Glenn Valley, British Columbia convention. "I don't want to drop a bombshell on you by saying this--but there has not always been a tree--not even in the Bible. But we believe that somewhere there has always been a root, a stump of Truth. We can't explain it. By faith, we accept it. If we need too much explanation, we don't have faith. During the time of the captivity, there was no tree--no true worship and sacrifice. But Daniel prayed toward Jerusalem like a stump. We don't read of any tree during the period of time between the Old and New Testaments, but when Jesus came, we read of six people. It sprouted again. In our day, there is a tree that is flourishing."
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Post by freespirit on Jul 10, 2009 11:35:41 GMT -5
Women in Oz are only permitted to give thanks for the emblems if there are no men present. There may have been times when they did but after an admonition at convention form the overseer this practice ceased. ( Actually a younger worker had asked me to encourage the women in our meeting to do so - the announcement at convention was a bit of a bombshell). I've never heard of anyone telling women they couldn't offer thanks for the bread and wine--we are free to do so if we are so moved by God- (and sometimes women offer thanks here)-but I'm against affirmative action prayer time. One time our elder "encouraged" the women to offer thanks. There was a weird silence. Then an older lady offered thanks. Then the next week we all went back to exactly the way we were doing it before. And it has stayed the same ever since. And thank God the man got the hint and never brought up the subject again. Otherwise us ladies would have had to tell him to shut up with his weirdo ideas about what we should or shouldn't do. We're happy, leave us alone! If we want to pray, we will. ;D ;D freespirit PS In OZ do the sister workers lead the meeting (or pray for the emblems) even when men are present? If so, this man's admonition does not really make sense to me.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2009 15:15:22 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 15:27:40 GMT -5
Come on now Jesse, you know that big trees can grow from JUST ONE root or stump, as it did in this case.
FWIW I heard several workers preach (repeat?) about this theory, only it wasn't an explanation, rather a mystery, because at that time I had bought into the Gallilee origin teachings and couldn't figure out exactly what they were meaning. The culture at that time, at least in my area was, you didn't ask for clarification, but rather you had to work it out for yourself.
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Post by fred on Jul 11, 2009 3:51:29 GMT -5
Yes fs, women workers automatically take the meeting even when they are only novices, unless of course there is a prior arrangement. We had an o/seas lady worker in our meeting not too long ago and she requested the meeting to go ahead with its normal routine.
And no, they do not give thanks for the bread or wine while there are men present.
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Post by freespirit on Jul 11, 2009 7:30:39 GMT -5
We had an o/seas lady worker in our meeting not too long ago and she requested the meeting to go ahead with its normal routine. That sounds like she was sweet and wanted to show respect to the elder. I think it was a nice thing to do. freespirit
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Post by fred on Jul 12, 2009 4:07:00 GMT -5
Yeah freespirit, that's how it was - and working in a third world country, not as burdened by traditions and rituals.
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Post by freespirit on Jul 12, 2009 14:21:26 GMT -5
H'mmmmmmm.... so if a woman goes to a meeting and (1) one person thinks that women should absolutely never offer thanks while men are present and (2) a different person wants to force encourage women to offer thanks despite how the women themselves may or may not feel about it, then what is the right thing for a woman to do? I get the impression that anything we do is going to upset somebody. fs
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Post by freespirit on Jul 12, 2009 16:16:11 GMT -5
But, Nathan, the overseer worker disagrees. So, now what should the elder do? fs
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Post by What Hat on Jul 12, 2009 19:00:20 GMT -5
Not exactly correct. In our area I know of one older British elder who does not like the practice. But the workers want women to give thanks, and it is generally the practice here ... so far as I know. A 94 year old lady in our meeting often gives thanks for the bread ... neat, eh?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 12, 2009 19:15:01 GMT -5
Hey Jesse! Scott, Scott, Scott, I can believe you grew up believing "an unbroken line", I and many others didn't, can *you* believe *that*?? Don't attribute a universal claim to the friends and workers that many did not make or believe. Yes, of course I believe it Jesse. I read here how different all of us were taught, and have no problem believing we all have had different experiences growing up. That really wasn't any universal claim I was trying to make at all, just sharing how it was with me. I have mentioned that old 'stump theory' a few times here also. I heard that preached on more than one occasion. I think that Tharold Sylvester spoke about it at convention. I want to say it was at Olympia, Washington convention. There was some guy picketing on the road with a sign about Cooneyites out there. I think that was the reason for Tharold speaking about it, although I could be remembering wrong. Scott
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Post by freespirit on Jul 12, 2009 23:30:11 GMT -5
But, Nathan, the overseer worker disagrees. So, now what should the elder do? fs ~~ Then ask the overseer to explain what Paul wrote in I Cor. chapter 11-14 about every believer to take parts in the emblems/Eucharists=thanksgiving, praying, and praising God and His Son death, life and resurrection.
hmmmmm... the women can sing, pray, speak in the Sunday morning meetings BUT not to give thanks for the emblems the most important part of worshipping God in spirit and in truth. That's kind a strange don't you think?*shrug* I don't think it's any stranger than men leading the meeting. Or women wearing skirts. Or any number of other odd things that we do. fs
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Post by open mind on Aug 25, 2009 22:32:35 GMT -5
It's interesting to me how many my wife and I work with and know deliberately have more imtimate fellowship type home meetings outside of formal church services. It's obvious some people have a hunger for singing, praying, and testimony in an intimate meeting setting. It's been especially noticable here with women only and men only meetings for bible studies etc. - probably because some men take "women keep silence in the church" very literally. That's kind of sad - interesting that the friends and workers "allowed" women to speak in, pray in, and lead meetings before they had the right to vote. Keeping women silent would leave a huge gap in intimate fellowship type meetings in my opinion, some of the nicest prayers I 've heard for the emblems were by women. Have you ever been in a men only study or do you know anyone who has been to a women only study? Only curious because as far as I understand they are not because woman should be silent at all. Rather it provides a safe environment for women to talk about issues that they have that may or may not be men related. It allows them the ability to talk with potentially more freedom in what they may feel is a safer environment. and visa versa. I went to a young mens bible study for a while and it was quite lovely. Young men being very open about their personal struggles and asking for prayer and encouragement. I am quite certain many things they confessed wouldn't have been brought up should there have been young women there. Just so you know it is not like we are cutting edge or anything. There are still places in Ontario where the elders/workers don't like women to give thanks for the emblems. A good friend of mine moved there and in her first meeting gave thanks and afterwards the elder took her aside and told her (women don't give thanks for the emblems here). I have another friend who married an aussie. To this day she still has never given thanks for the emblems because that is a mans job. When my buddy was over in Oz (the area his wife came from) only men gave thanks for the emblems. Not once did a woman in the nine months he was there. I don't know, maybe it is an aussie thing or maybe just a regional thing? We should ask Bert. I am from Australia (NSW) and it is ecouraged of women to give thanks for the emblems (normally the elder will ask 'a brother or sister to give thanks'
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Post by toffeecrumble on Aug 29, 2009 13:29:02 GMT -5
It is not the case everywhere that a woman can be moved by God's Spirit to give thanks for the emblems, strange though that may be! I know of a woman who was reprimanded for doing so, even though she really the Spirit prompting. This was in UK. I am not sure if this is a rule for all parts of the United Kingdom unless there are no male participamts present.
Incredible, isn't it, that God's Spirit operates differently in different countries! What is that? Racism? or Nationalism? I always thought that God would be impartial.
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Post by emy on Aug 29, 2009 13:33:29 GMT -5
Maybe it wasn't the Spirit operating differently, but the the lack of close touch with the Spirit in the reprimander? We're not all always responsive, unfortunately.
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Post by shushy on Sept 2, 2009 10:42:26 GMT -5
It is not the case everywhere that a woman can be moved by God's Spirit to give thanks for the emblems, strange though that may be! I know of a woman who was reprimanded for doing so, even though she really the Spirit prompting. This was in UK. I am not sure if this is a rule for all parts of the United Kingdom unless there are no male participamts present. Incredible, isn't it, that God's Spirit operates differently in different countries! What is that? Racism? or Nationalism? I always thought that God would be impartial. Interesting comments toffee.. The Holy Spirit is blamed for a lot of stuff ups. IMO He isnt gender selective. In any church setting there is some kind of structure. In a local church the person doing the emblems will already have been appointed and prepared in the closet for it. Its a known fact in church circles that men have dominated the church leadership scene. As a woman breaking into that scene with a gift it can be very hard/or used to be. You had to prove yourself by reason of use. Women hear from God. Some men have a problem with that.Ive known them to over ride, hinder what God is trying to do, speak against women, laugh, poke fun with their male friends over lunch or even speak out loud in a conference while she was preaching. I have a friend who deliberately tried to prove a point by wearing a scarlet suit. She had more flack for that while preaching than anything she preached. She proved the point. There was nothing wrong with her preaching it was great, she came from a cult too. IMO the men were the ones with the problem. She just looked too attractive in red. She was covered modestly it was just the color. Why do men belittle women and get away with it. GOD IS FOR WOMEN HE SPEAKS TO WOMEN WE ROCK........ Now dont get me wrong so do men. Well some men.
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Post by shushy on Sept 2, 2009 10:48:07 GMT -5
somegy Some of the most powerful ministry Ive seen were at womens camps. We had fun too. I obtained some turbo lax which i dropped into my friends tea....she was so mouthy and had been irritating us...
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