Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 12:59:12 GMT -5
Siwells, if you saw that person in what you thought was a Christian cult which was having a destructive effect on their life, would you still feel the same ? I am speaking generally here, not in relation to the 2x2 sect.
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Dec 8, 2008 13:06:46 GMT -5
Siwells, if you saw that person in what you thought was a Christian cult which was having a destructive effect on their life, would you still feel the same ? I am speaking generally here, not in relation to the 2x2 sect. If they are of legal age, I don't try to worry too much about it...unless they approach me with questions, complaints, then I try to advise them of sources that fit their questions or complaints. Now as a nurse, of course, if it's someone under legal age and there's abuse of any kind...I report it to the proper authorities to investigate. That's what I've been told to do, for it isn't my place to judge the matter at all!
|
|
|
Post by lin on Dec 8, 2008 13:50:06 GMT -5
I don't believe Cherie counseled anybody.
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Dec 8, 2008 20:35:31 GMT -5
I don't believe Cherie counseled anybody. Well, here she said she'd been a confident to hundreds who have left... So that makes you wiser and exclusive right? How so? I'm simply following the guidance of the Holy Spirit for me, Who does not lead everyone to do the same thing. I still respect those who choose to stay in meetings. Some who attend meetings are "exclusive" while others are not. I dont try to get them out. I respect their choice...as being what the Holy Spirit has led them to do. I took you seriously that you really wanted to know the answer to the question why are the friends leaving the F&W fellowship and what is keeping potential converts from coming in. What better person to let you in on a MAJOR reason than someone who left 20 years ago and has watched over a thousand others leave and who has been a confidante to hundreds who have left? Who has closely monitored the board for the entire time boards and lists have been in existence? What you do with this information is up to you...what I think of myself or what you or others think is irrelevant. The reason I gave still applies to why many have left or are not coming in. Why shoot the messenger? Thats what you have to evaluate...is it worth it to hang on to the very belief that is driving people away? A belief that is not found in the scripture? i.e. that God has only one way and that is a man-Jesus--not a method? I find it interesting that Cherie passed on Jessica Hagan's very personal email to GiC. I wonder if any others Cherie was a "confidante" for had their private stories passed around. fs
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Dec 8, 2008 20:45:19 GMT -5
I don't believe Cherie counseled anybody. I find it interesting that Cherie passed on Jessica Hagan's very personal email to GiC. I wonder if any others Cherie was a "confidante" for had their private stories passed around. fs Indeed!
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Dec 8, 2008 22:27:23 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Cherie passed on Jessica Hagan's very personal email to GiC. I wonder if any others Cherie was a "confidante" for had their private stories passed around. Citation, please, if you're capable.
|
|
lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
|
Post by lizzy on Dec 8, 2008 22:29:55 GMT -5
Tell me why she had to send mail(ten years back or so) to all the poor lost souls in OK that went to meeting. Has she had a big revelation or is she a troublemaker? Most would say, the latter.
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Dec 8, 2008 22:33:13 GMT -5
Funny that you think that those who tell the truth are the troublemakers. How odd.
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Dec 8, 2008 22:57:58 GMT -5
Tell me why she had to send mail(ten years back or so) to all the poor lost souls in OK that went to meeting. Has she had a big revelation or is she a troublemaker? Most would say, the latter. I also know people who have received mailings from her. I find it interesting that on this post she denied it outright: I haven't sent out any mailings. Not making sure of your facts again, Nate, before leveling accusations?
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Dec 8, 2008 23:24:49 GMT -5
What the heck is "truth according to you?" Truth is truth. It isn't according to anybody. But I digress. This has been explained to you repeatedly. And you still believe only in the "truth according to nathan."
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 8, 2008 23:45:15 GMT -5
Tell me why she had to send mail(ten years back or so) to all the poor lost souls in OK that went to meeting. Has she had a big revelation or is she a troublemaker? Most would say, the latter. I also know people who have received mailings from her. I find it interesting that on this post she denied it outright: I haven't sent out any mailings.Not making sure of your facts again, Nate, before leveling accusations? I'm curious. Who are "all the poor lost souls in OK that went to meeting?" that you mention. Could you name some of them? I thought all the people I went to meeting with in Oklahoma were saved. So Nate believes the people in Oklahoma who go to meeting are LOST? How weird... This ambiguous vague accusation turns on the definition of mail or a "mailing." I am aware that many people have received mail from mass mailing or mail-outs through the years--but they didn't come from me. The term "mail out" generally meant that 300-1,000 more or less pieces of mail went out to some of the friends ANNONYMOUSLY. My knowledge of them doesnt mean I participated in them. You cannot prove this one--ever. Would be stupid to try. I probably know the sources for most of the larger mailouts that were made. Next time you take somebody's word for something and then make public accusations off of 2nd hand info--I would suggest you require verification from your sources to prove your claim before you write it publicly. Makes you look foolish to have no proof and the info come from an unreliable dubious source. Now, its no secret that I sent out an exit letter in 1991 - which is getting close to TWENTY YEARS AGO (not 10 as Nate stated) and one other following letter a year later answering those who replied to my exit letter--about 100 of them. That is plainly stated in my story which is published on my website. No secret at all. I've always been totally up front about that, and these were letters with my personal signature on them. However, I do not consider my sending personal letters a "mail out" per se. Both of these were personal letters from me to people I considered my friends and my relatives who I wanted to know why I left meetings. I sent out about 100 of them total--hardly a mass mailing, and only a handful went to people in Oklahoma actually. I had only lived in OK for 2 years when I left meetings, and didn't have many meeting friends here--as I state in my story. Now its possible people in OK copied them and distributed them...that I wouldnt know about. Previous to that I lived in Texas, California, and on the Mississippi convention grounds. So my personal letters went to these and possibly various states in America...wherever I had close friends FS - You're missing the point. The important thing: IS THE INFO ON TTT TRUE? I am irrelevant. I could be a murderer or felon or druggie--whatever--and it would not affect my ability to write the truth. A talking donkey can speak the truth. Go study about informal fallacies! You're committing them right and left. Unless you come up with something false on my website...you're just leveling false ad hominem attacks on me that everyone can see through. Here is what ad hominem attacks are www.tellingthetruth.info/questions_askbook/06ask.php? Your personal attacks don't affect the truth of my website one whit. Why dont you go over to TTT and see if you can find anything amiss there? I will correct anything there that is found to be incorrect, with proper verification. PS Read a copy of my Exit Letter I mailed to my F&R at: www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_stories/berrykroppcherie.php#Exit
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 0:00:53 GMT -5
NB - in the first quote box in my post--if you didn't write that, I apologize and my comments are redirected to whoever said that. With all that gibberish at the beginning of the quote I find it hard to know who the quote source is actually.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Dec 9, 2008 0:03:55 GMT -5
Cherie, did you also send out the Secret Sect book to close friends?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 0:07:02 GMT -5
Cherie, did you also send out the Secret Sect book to close friends? Not unless they requested it. Then I would loan them a book. I couldnt afford to do that...and I dont know anyone who did. Back in the early 1990s, this book cost $9 or $10 each.
|
|
lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
|
Post by lizzy on Dec 9, 2008 2:16:08 GMT -5
Nathan, I referred to them as poor lost souls, being facetious. I also know people who have received mailings from her. I find it interesting that on this post she denied it outright: I'm curious. Who are "all the poor lost souls in OK that went to meeting?" that you mention. Could you name some of them? I thought all the people I went to meeting with in Oklahoma were saved. So Nate believes the people in Oklahoma who go to meeting are LOST? How weird... ~~~ Where did I say the friends/people in Oklahoma are lost in my post? Where did you get this idea from?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 7:33:18 GMT -5
Nathan, I referred to them as poor lost souls, being facetious. ~~~ Where did I say the friends/people in Oklahoma are lost in my post? Where did you get this idea from? Lizzy: Did you or your family receive one of my exit letters in 1991? Were you living in Oklahoma then?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 10:36:47 GMT -5
RE NB:
That also works another way. If the workers had been honest about who started their church and when--those who have left the fellowship might never have chosen to be in that fellowship in the first place.
And had the workers not preached their method was God's "only way" ...many would never have been in the fellowship in the first place. Many were/are in the fellowship largely because they believe false information given to them by the very ones they trusted the most (the workers) to be truthful with them.
For if they had been given all the critical information they had a right to know--full disclosure by the workers--with which to make a rational decision... they would have had a free choice in the matter. Thats what I seek to give with TTT. Free choice. Information to be used in making life decisions
How is TTT "poison"--when the F&W aren't the only Christians in the world? Provided they remain Christians, what does it matter if some leave your fellowship or go elsewhere to assemble with other believers?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 11:43:33 GMT -5
FS
I recognize that the above statement is presented as your opinion--however, with all due respect--you don't know what you're talking about.
It IS quite common in America...I should know. I've been a licensed professional who researches names on a daily basis for the past ten years. I check out 50-100 names a day on most working days. It's part of my job. In the 3 hours I've been at work so far today, I've already checked out 25 names, as well as checked a number of others items.
Why not just assume that most people have good reasons for what they do? That way you wouldnt get egg on your face so much.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 12:29:48 GMT -5
NB: I asked you where/what is the "poison" on TTT you refer to in your analogy? I assumed from your comment that you believed there was already something on TTT that was bad/evil/false. Something people read on TTT and could die spiritually from...
Instead you give me advice on what you would like me TO post.
Again I ask you--where/what is the poison on TTT??? Please stick to the question.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 12:48:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 13:07:12 GMT -5
Define "agenda" ~~~ My 2x2 Itinerant preachers/apostles through out the ages website will show the analogy to the readers that your website is NOT telling them the whole truth. You indeed have an agenda toward the 2x2s.
You want the 2x2s THINK that you don't have any agenda against their church, faith, belief... but by your website you have an agenda.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 13:24:06 GMT -5
Come on, Cherie... Deep down in your heart You know what your agenda is already. I believe that everyone has an agenda - me, you and everyone. The word can be used in a positive or negative connotation. An AGENDA is merely the underlying reason for what someone does/is doing. What is YOUR agenda/reason for your website? Just wondered what meaning you were infusing into the word in your earlier post above. I didn't want to take your meaning wrong...and be found addressing a straw man argument, so I asked for a definition. Feel free to state what you THINK is my agenda. My mission statement is plainly stated on TTT at: www.tellingthetruth.info/home/aboutttt.php
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 14:48:27 GMT -5
NB: I do refer to others who did the same thing as WmI strove to do—to get back to the basics of Christianity. Its found in Chapter 8 of my book - heading "Restoration ideal." I do allow the readers to draw their own conclusion… www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/08wmibook.php
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 16:33:25 GMT -5
The link worked for me. Try it again. use Refresh maybe?
|
|
|
Post by emy on Dec 9, 2008 17:02:53 GMT -5
<< Not unless they requested it. Then I would loan them a book. I couldnt afford to do that...and I dont know anyone who did. Back in the early 1990s, this book cost $9 or $10 each. >>
The book I believe was sent by you was more like in the mid-80s.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Dec 9, 2008 17:14:16 GMT -5
Nathan used the word 'poison'. I would be inclined to use 'deception.' And it starts at the top of the first page. I'm not sure what keywords bring up your site, but let's say one would be "Truth" or some other designation used informally by the friends and workers. So here's a page advertised as "Telling The Truth" and one opens it to find a nice little (homey) scene with a Bible, hymnbook (clearly Hymns Old & New), a Bible bag, study list, etc. Looks like it will be friendly to the fellowship of friends and workers, right? Hmmmmmm.......
Frankly, I never got past that scene in exploring your site, because I knew what was coming.
PS. Ahhh! I forgot to mention the workers' picture!
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 17:20:34 GMT -5
<< Not unless they requested it. Then I would loan them a book. I couldnt afford to do that...and I dont know anyone who did. Back in the early 1990s, this book cost $9 or $10 each. >> The book I believe was sent by you was more like in the mid-80s. The SS was published in 1982. I finally got a copy of it in 1990. So, no, I wouldnt have been able to mail any copies of SS out in the mid 1980s. I was a Texas 2x2 back then...who had never even heard of Wm Irvine until I moved to OK in the late 1980s. Whats your reason for asking?? Are you trying to track down the sender of a book you received from someone? Or do you think that it would be wrong if I or someone had purchased the SS and mailed out copies to some friends???
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Dec 9, 2008 17:34:01 GMT -5
I think that's a hard call to make. Speculation is available to everyone and does not really make a case either way.
Now this is where I take exception - this is where you cross from fact into opinion. Firstly, I would reject that the Workers were \ have \ are giving our false information. This would imply all the Workers are deliberate liars; I do not accept that any more than I would accept the argument that all Roman Catholic priests should be behind bars because of CSA.
Secondly, the larger proportion of this claim - the exclusivity which is such a bugbear for some - is also a matter of belief and faith. Even though I accept the general historical accounts of the "beginnings" of the Church, this does not preclude me from believing that the Church is true, and that it does have the apostolic mandate (if not succession). Our Head Worker, a couple of years ago, announced to the convention that the Church has not been in existence continually throughout the ages. There is no Apostolic Succession, he said.
I have not seen a great exodus as a result of this declaration.
That's fine. Providing you do not attempt to push your materials onto people, I don't see a problem with it. And providing you do not make your website kind of mandatory for discussion or dialogue, I also do not see a problem with it. Generally, people who are seeking this information will find it; those who are not interested will not go looking for it.
There is much about the TTT and other websites (especially the TLT) that, in my view, is abnormal or unusual, and should send signals to rational and educated folks. I acknowledge that you present yourself as the author of your website, Cherie, which is commendable of you. Whatever one may think, one does need to give you credit for having the courage of your convictions.
However, I think there needs to be much greater transparency - on both sides of the fence. Why all the anonymity surprises me. If I am speaking the truth; if I am seeking to be honest; if I am upholding the divine principles of God, then why should I fear to put my name out there?
Secondly, telling the truth involves telling the whole truth - not merely a selection. If you limited your website to historical fact, and changed the somewhat accusative title, I do believe you would not meet with so much angst. Selectivity suggests polemic. A case in point is my own website, in which I admit only one perspecitve: mine, and the Reformed Theology that underpins it. Hence I am happy to admit that my website is pure, unadulterated polemic. It is not scholarly, and is not intended to be.
Thirdly, the enterprise goes well beyond mere reassertion of historical fact. For example, you website speculates as to motive - you must admit you do often paint the Workers as liars and frauds; "covering up" the truth. Your website also delves into what I feel is questionable theology (I intend to take additional formal theological training for my Arts degree next year in order to wrestle with this). For instance, you establish an intepretive method for looking at the Scripture, and then proceed to argue about certain Pauline teachings. From your writing on the TMB, you certainly do not accept Christ's teaching regarding Divorce and Remarriage - hence your website has a teaching facility to it as well.
You collect information that is not strictly relevant to the historical narrative. This is what tends to set people off. For instance, the collection of Worker lists to put into a searchable online database so that Workers could be "tracked" over the years. This to me is irrelevant to the "historic beginnings" of the Church, and it appealed to others in the same light. In fact - as it was pointed out - such a database had the potential to endanger Workers' lives in countries traditionally hostile to Christianity.
So it is not about "TTT" per se, as much as it is - as Nathan indicated - about agenda. Perhaps your agenda is a bit too... free range?
|
|