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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 4, 2008 9:40:06 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2008 10:00:03 GMT -5
Purification can be accomplished by fire. This is how you should regard Cherie's motives. True, many will get burnt, as is happening, but the Bible instructs us that such purging is necessary.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 12:05:58 GMT -5
the Bible instructs us that such purging is necessary. I think we should start by purging much of the Bible. Not sure how I could class Cherie's motives as anything but pure, given the great personal dedication she has put into "helping others". GIC, I think such respectful work as Cherie's plays a helpful part. I know you don't feel it is respectful, but on a scale, it's far better than ilylo's hate campaign. If a person is ready to move on from the f&w's, they sometimes need an excuse, and if they are not yet ready to move on from Christianity as a whole, Cherie's work is a good compromising stance.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 4, 2008 12:38:58 GMT -5
Without GIC defining the terms "pure motive," or "agenda," this poll is ambiguous and is up to anyone's guess as to its reliability or significance... So for the record, here is my TTT Mission Statement and is what I consider to be: Cherie's "agenda" or "motives." My life story may be read on TTT at: www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_stories/berrykroppcherie.phpWhat does TTT do? makes historical details easily accessible provides facts and information provides information about the ex-member support group and e-mail discussion lists What are the purposes of TTT? To inform and educate. To publish the plain, unvarnished truth and oppose deception. TTT believes everyone who has ever been connected with this church has a right to know the historical facts concerning its founder and origin. TTT is dedicated to making the historical information easily accessible and readily available and stated in a manner that an adolescent will be able to understand it. It is TTT's goal that the history of the group will soon become common knowledge to its followers. TTT encourages individual examination and evaluation. TTT is not a church, denomination or religion. TTT is operated by a former member. Why does TTT do this?TTT takes seriously the command, "as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31). We wish we had known the facts that TTT publicizes. TTT is devoted to TRUTH. TTT is an answer to those that seek truth about this group. I am doing the same thing Luke did when he wrote his Gospel of Luke: "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled (Footnote: or been surely believed) among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." Luke 1:1-4 (NIV) The movement started by Wm Irvine included many of these same principles as other restoration movemenets that became churches in the 19th century. Wm Irvine's ideas were not original. Many others began moves back to the basics of Christianity which evolved into churches. The churches differ in their perspective of what particulars in the New Testament church and ministry they choose to emphasize. Like the 2x2 fellowship, several other religious movements also hold the belief that no one on earth for eighteen centuries has understood the Bible until their particular self-proclaimed leader was "raised up to restore" the correct or true interpretation of God's truth, will and way to mankind through his personal "revelations:" While others believe, "We're Christians only, but not the only Christians." What are TTT's standards regarding documentation and evidence? A great deal of effort has been made by the TTT Editor to hold a high standard of accuracy in reporting details about the 2x2 church and ministry. Telling The Truth has made it a practice to have on file a hard copy of each of the documents, newspaper articles, references, etc. listed in the Basic Researchers Guide, on the Telling the Truth website and in the Book, The Life and Ministry of Wm Irvine by Cherie Kropp. Material included in these mediums relates to subject matter that (1) is published or circulated and which (2) relates to The Church Without a Name, its history, founder and/or congregation. On rare occasions, a few comments without sources have been used, and they are prefaced by the words "allegedly" or "reportedly," indicating the editor has not substantiated same, but thought them worthy of inclusion. The TTT Editor has made due diligence to corroborate evidence when possible, but makes no representations concerning the accuracy of the information presented in the references listed. On occasion when there has been information that conflicts, both versions are given. Who is the Administrator of TTT?Telling The Truth (TTT) was started in 1997 by Cherie Kropp as the result of God coming for her words in a vow she made to Him: "for from the first day that thou dist set thing heart to understand...thy words were heard and I am come for thy words." Daniel 10:12
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2008 12:47:14 GMT -5
I have voted "yes, pure as God's Holy breath," simply because it is the closest option to
"Yes, presented honestly with good conscience before God."
Of course there is no clarification as to what matters Jason is referring. I'm assuming it's her website and matters arising therefrom.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 4, 2008 15:42:57 GMT -5
I think it a pointless poll. But I think I see the point trying to be made.
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Post by JO on Dec 4, 2008 16:55:04 GMT -5
I have voted "yes, pure as God's Holy breath," simply because it is the closest option to "Yes, presented honestly with good conscience before God." Of course there is no clarification as to what matters Jason is referring. I'm assuming it's her website and matters arising therefrom. "yes, pure as God's Holy breath" is a foolish statement and no doubt will lessen the vote for this "pure motive" option. How can any human being's motive be as pure as God's holy breath? The overseers of our church have chosen not to be honest about the church's history so I feel Cherie is doing an important work. The longer it is left the harder it will be to assemble the documentation, and we wouldn't want people to base their faith on endless genealogies and myths....would we? I'm reminded of this quote by Doug Horton: If you love something let it go free. If it doesn't come back, you never had it. If it comes back, love it forever.People should be set free of this bondage of basing their faith on the myth of apostolic succession. Those who readjust their faith to being Christ-centered and remain in the fellowship will make a powerful contribution to a Christ-centered church. Those whose faith is only in the "one-true-way" living witness heresy should be set free.
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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 4, 2008 17:51:45 GMT -5
Says Cherie huffily, mixing in perfect proportions both self-righteousness and snootiness. I wonder as to the reliability and significance of the personal attack you made on Lin when the TMB had finally begun to enter a place of calm, tolerance and understanding - all too rare sadly - by launching that pathetic excuse of a poll.
Asking people to make judgements about someone else's mental acuity is just plain nasty. I do not care how it is sliced or diced, it is mean, it is cruel, and it is a form of mockery - as indeed it was intended to be. The irony here is that when confronted with a kind of facsimile of what you inflicted on someone else, you regard it as having limited significance. Well duh.
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Post by shushy on Dec 4, 2008 18:02:26 GMT -5
Jason your makin trouble again.
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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 4, 2008 18:07:06 GMT -5
If this is all the TTT did, it would not excite so much hostility. And if the name was less inflammatory - "Telling the Truth" is an attack all in itself - and was something like "Historical Archive of the Fellowship", it would have less projectile quality and probably smooth over a lot of angst there in itself.
The problem is Cherie does not just present facts and information, but an interpretation of them. This is a far cry from the impartial stance she purports to take. Unfortunately, Cherie is unable to recognise this due to her lack of formal training; there is a bias in her work, and it is detectable by both Friends and non-Friends alike.
Secondly, Cherie goes beyond mere "fact presentation" into theology. Her exegesis of the Scripture pertaining to hair, for example, is flawed. But even if one thought it was spot on, it is undeniably a presentation of theology and a critique of doctrine.
Cherie is simply not honest. And this is reflected in the distaste with which many people hold her. Oh sure, she has her fan club; which I observe generally comprises people who are typically bedazzled with factual sounding text, but those who are more inclined to critical thinking, analysis, and deep consideration find her work perplexing. It is a mishmash of facts, interpretations thereof, doctrinal teachings etc.
If this were true, then it would publish the WHOLE truth. That is, links to Bert's website so people can check out the opposing view. If Bert's website is so decrepit then surely the light on the TTT will easily dispel the darkness of ignorance and error? Or what about a link to Nathan's website, or my own - which would certainly challenge the view that the Friends are, in the main, theologically ignorant twits.
You can, of course, rationalise your decision to tell half the story by saying we are not "typical" Friends; but then this criteria could be applied to anyone on the Internet who defends the Church. It's a neat excuse to hide the full story. (NOTE: "AnsweringIslam.com" also links to conversion stories of Christians to Muslims, as do many ex-Mormon, ex-Roman Catholic, and ex-JW websites. Those who speak the truth, are not afraid to present the whole story. If they don't they are still only presenting a half-truth, or a lie).
Cherie compares herself to a divinely guided writer of Scripture! Let those exes who sneer at Workers comparing their work to that of the Apostles be forever silenced!
God would never ask for a website to be established that would lead to the creation of so many atheists and agnostics. To dismantle people's faith is not the call of God; we are told to present the truth about Jesus and about God - the "truth" of God will set us free; not historical facts.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 18:17:23 GMT -5
I agree with all of your long post, GIC, until the end: God would never ask for a website to be established that would lead to the creation of so many atheists and agnostics. To dismantle people's faith is not the call of God; we are told to present the truth about Jesus and about God - the "truth" of God will set us free; not historical facts. oops! Now you're the one mixing theology with factual reporting. Note that I agree...I often complain about Cherie's method of mixing religious beliefs into her factual reporting, because, to me, that hurts her credibility...but I still stand by my statement that she performs a useful purpose. I would likewise agree that anyone who provides a website which condemns the surface-level fellowship of traditional Christianity and points people to the f&w's is doing a service for people who need a more intense relationship with God. Everybody is different.
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Post by degem on Dec 4, 2008 18:23:41 GMT -5
"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2008 18:25:06 GMT -5
I can think of no truer historical fact than the truth of God, something that God himself, through his inspired word has sought to preserve.
Telling the Truth (TTT) about the F&W's fellowship has been made necessary due to deception by workers in former times, which workers today have not recognised nor sought to resolve. Nor does it look like they intend to.
Until those responsible for the deception, or at least its correction, take measures to put matters right, then Cherie's historical archives (I challenge you to overturn the historical facts) will rightfully be regarded as priceless treasure chest on account of the wealth of truthful and accurate information it contains. A veritable deep reservoir of satiating knowledge and information for those with honest hearts truly seeking to establish for themselves the proper foundations and history of this sect. Let us not make feeble attempts to separate spirituality and history. The historical value of spiritual truth is immense. Those sects which proclaim to be a part of historical spirituality should rightly have their claims subjected to examination. This requires openness and honesty, not secrecy and prevaricative responses.
Jason, it is clear you don't like Cherie. It is also clear that the historical truths she records is more than a thorn in your side.
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Post by spiderman on Dec 4, 2008 18:26:57 GMT -5
Jason your makin trouble again. Jason is only looking for trouble. Talk about a personal attack!! I would really like to visit with you face to face, Jason. You are one of the few people that I have come close to ignoring. I probably will from now on. You have nothing to say. Cherie, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all your hard work and silent suffering at the hands of the likes of Jason and his ilk.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 18:45:21 GMT -5
Cherie, thank you for all your hard work, but I sure wish you wouldn't mix religion with reporting.
ram, I have no clue what you mean by this: I can think of no truer historical fact than the truth of God, something that God himself, through his inspired word has sought to preserve.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 4, 2008 18:49:33 GMT -5
So much for Jason's pledge that he neither creates nor votes in polls such as this.
Dietcoke complains about "hate campaigns..." What do you call this thread, dietcoke? A love fest? Get real. The only hate campaign here is from the Grand Hypocrite Jason Landless.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2008 18:56:16 GMT -5
DC, we seem to struggle to understand each other and be on the same page. Good job we are not in the same choir.
Of course, I just don't understand your position regarding God and his inspired word.
Jase appears to be separating the Truth of God from Historical fact. This is what I'm commenting on. God's truth is recorded in the Holy Bible. At least that is what I believe. Since God's truth spans from eternity to eternity,or from the formation of the Earth until now in temporal terms, it is historical fact. God has sought to preserve certain information of his work on Earth and with mankind, including the sending of his son Jesus for our benefit. These historical facts are for our spiritual benefit.
Of course I suspect you do not believe this ?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 19:05:11 GMT -5
Dietcoke complains about "hate campaigns..." What do you call this thread, dietcoke? A love fest? Get real. The only hate campaign here is from the Grand Hypocrite Jason Landless. That may be true, ilylo. I do not approve of Jason's methods any more than I approve of yours. Both of you can really get in a groove sometimes. His puts-downs do not escape my attention. Yet, for some reason, his methods are more tolerable to me than yours; somehow, your one-line snipe-show makes me wanna strangle you, whereas his long diatribes sprinkled with superiority just make me shake my head. Yet, I know I come across the same way to some people. I do not know why your methods are so repulsive to me; I should congratulate you on your effectiveness, I guess, while at the same time apologize for singling you out so often. I'm sorry.
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Post by jdouglas on Dec 4, 2008 19:07:02 GMT -5
Not voting as I don't like the choices. From everything I know, Cherie appears to be motivated to help people. And I thank her! Jen
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 19:08:57 GMT -5
Jase appears to be separating the Truth of God from Historical fact. This is what I'm commenting on. God's truth is recorded in the Holy Bible. At least that is what I believe. Since God's truth spans from eternity to eternity,or from the formation of the Earth until now in temporal terms, it is historical fact. God has sought to preserve certain information of his work on Earth and with mankind, including the sending of his son Jesus for our benefit. These historical facts are for our spiritual benefit. Of course I suspect you do not believe this ? No I do not. I believe it would be healthy for you to recognize two different levels of "truth", two different meanings you ascribe to the words "historical fact." That Jesus lived on the earth may be established as a fact (some would disagree with even this); that God sent him for our benefit is a theological belief which cannot be proven. I love discussing BOTH kinds of facts/truths but when we mix the two, it just drives me insane. They don't mix; indeed, the "truths" of our religions contradict the "truths" of the scientific, studiable world around us.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2008 19:18:36 GMT -5
DC, with respect, it is way past my bed-time, so maybe I just don't have a clear head on what you're driving at. Maybe by the time I revisit the board jwbd will have interjected with an interpretation that I can make sense of, or should it be make nonsense of ?
I'm afraid I'm only interested in one kind of truth now. For too long I believed in two levels or ways of truth, that I sure ain't going back down that road again.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 19:25:09 GMT -5
alright, ram, get some sleep! It's only 4:00 where I live!
a simple example: One "truth" in our religion is that God hates evil; hates it so much that he once destroyed the world in a flood, preserving only a little band of righteous followers.
The scientific "truth" is that no such flood ever happened, and we can prove it.
See how Christianities "truths" are on a much higher plane, way above any dreary cold, hard facts, much more worthy of our discussion? But, let's not mix the two kinds of "truth", or we'll just get confused. Discussions about how many species of animals went into the ark are totally stupid.
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Post by hope on Dec 4, 2008 21:18:17 GMT -5
Jason - it has been noted by a brilliant mind of a famous write~ "(we) can't help detesting ... other people having the same faults as ourselves." this came to my mind as I think of the things that you write.... "He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and would turn, and I would heal them." John 12:40 as for Cherie - she is usually professional, concise and informative in what she presents on here in her messages. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says but I think this is another unnecessarily personal attack poll started by you. I believe that your behaviour indicates that you would have been instigating alot of stoning if you lived in Jesus time. John 8:6 May God give you a Spirit of wisdom...
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 4, 2008 21:42:23 GMT -5
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Post by hope on Dec 4, 2008 21:48:10 GMT -5
I also think its interesting that every option on the poll is loaded. There is no "yes from what I have observed she is pure in her intentions".... typical exaggeration - extreme - that really manipulates the posters because you don't give them fair options.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 4, 2008 21:59:42 GMT -5
Cherie, I confess I've never looked closely at your book, thinking it was a rehash of what was on the website. The table of contents looks pure, though! Do YOU feel it is an unbiased report of the facts, void of religious posturing? Maybe it is exactly what I have wanted.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 4, 2008 22:14:26 GMT -5
His puts-downs do not escape my attention. Then why do they escape your criticism (unlike someone else I know)? Yet, for some reason, his methods are more tolerable to me than yours; I can see why "fecal matter" and "thoughtless jackass" comments would be more tolerable to you. somehow, your one-line snipe-show makes me wanna strangle you, I love how people complain about my "one-line" comments. Would you find it more tolerable if I posted long diatribes sprinkled with superiority? whereas his long diatribes sprinkled with superiority just make me shake my head. Of course. His hate-filled speeches are more tolerable to you. Really?
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Post by ilylo on Dec 4, 2008 22:18:29 GMT -5
If this were true, then it would publish the WHOLE truth. That is, links to Bert's website so people can check out the opposing view. If Bert's website is so decrepit then surely the light on the TTT will easily dispel the darkness of ignorance and error? Or what about a link to Nathan's website, or my own - which would certainly challenge the view that the Friends are, in the main, theologically ignorant twits. Hello, captain clueless. You don't link to her site. So quit whining like a 2-yr-old that she doesn't link to yours. Hypocrite.
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