timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
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Post by timber on Oct 8, 2008 7:41:40 GMT -5
Paul tells us that we are given free will, not to sin, but to love. We can and do sin while excercising our free will - God will allow the consequences of sin.
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2008 8:13:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the list of quotations. Do you have any opinions?
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2008 9:00:39 GMT -5
Rational,
The offence of sin must be seen in a juridical sense as a crime against God - even if the sin is directed at other people, it is ultimately an offence against God. The penalty for such crimes is spiritual death. When God offers to forgive his people, he does so as a governor who pardons a man on death row.
It probably means to reverse drought, or crop diesease. Could also be interpreted as a promise to restore social justice among the people.
Your cynicism is well-placed.
Hope is articulating a view which is insupportable from the Scriptures called Arminianism (semi-Pelganianism) - a widespread belief among fundamentalists, and evangelicals - although not so much among mainstream Protestant denominations.
In contradistinction to the view asserted here, Calvinism teaches that man has no free will to behave as an independant moral actor, but rather is enslaved to sin by default. This does not mean man is not accountable for his actions. Paul addresses this objection in Romans 9: "You will say to me then, how can God judge us, for who hath resisted his will?" Calvinism - systematic theology - teaches that God has the power to create "vessels unto honour, and vessels unto wrath" - I agree with Augustine: this means some are predestined to hell, and others to heaven.
You will object (as most do, even Christian folk), that God is unfair. Paul answers this objection also: "Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!" Or you will say that this is a God you would never worship. My answer is, "I know. And unless God takes away your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh you never will."
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2008 9:02:33 GMT -5
Paul tells us that we are given free will, not to sin, but to love. We can and do sin while excercising our free will - God will allow the consequences of sin. Where does Paul say this? Please provide a reference! Because I would contend that Paul NEVER makes this assertion. Paul NEVER makes an assertion incompatible with Predestination and Unconditional Election; neither for that matter does Christ - whose teachings are far from the free will model of Arminians or Molonists.
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Post by hope on Oct 8, 2008 9:05:44 GMT -5
My opinion is this~
We have the free will to enter into the most rewarding relationship with the almighty God~ no words could describe - and this relationship starts on earth~ we have free will to be richly blessed and richly loved by God "we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory" Romans 8:23
My testimony is this - I have "tasted and seen" that God is good - Sometimes others condemn my faith as foolish questioning whether there really is even an afterlife.. saying if there is not then my faith was in vain~
I believe everything in the bible -so clearly I believe in the afterlife - BUT even if there was none - the reward of walking everyday with a beautiful loving awesome God who is so real, so tangible is alone enough reason for me to raise my Hands and say I love you Lord, My heart and Life belongs to You~ It blows me away how intimate He is~ how He desires to be involved in every little detail and huge decision. I seek the Holy Spirits guidance and I can have faith that whether bad or good comes out of that choice that my Heavenly Father who loves me has chosen this experience for me - to grow, to learn and to be transformed more and more into His image. There is nothing to loose and everything to gain in an authentic relationship with the Lord , there are hard times and there are joyful times but now that I've met with Him I cannot imagine life without Him, I cannot forsake Him ~ The pure joy of His presence and getting to know Him is worth everything He asks me to give up for His glory~ He is more than enough for me~
If this is a "foretaste" I cannot wait for eternity with Him!!
"Here I am to worship.. here I am to bow down, here I am to say that Your my God~ Your altogether lovely, altogether worthy, altogether wonderful to me!"
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2008 20:35:15 GMT -5
HOPE: It is indeed interesting that you and I were both born in the same year, and are exactly the same age, yet our perceptions of Christianity are so wildly divergent.
I do not believe this is the case. And I do not believe a careful study of the Scriptures leads us to this conclusion. The repeated statements about the elect, and election, for example, prove that this is not the case. Furthermore, any meaningful study of Romans 9, in which Paul cites God as saying, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and whom I will I hardeneth" destroys the concept of free will rather completely.
You see, man is an enemy of God by nature. His will, mind and heart are twisted; he is dead in trespasses and sins. When Lazarus was in the tomb, he exemplified perfectly man's natural condition. Could Lazarus hear? No. Could Lazarus take steps toward Jesus? No. Could Lazarus understand his own condition? No. It required the intervention of Jesus to make him alive again. There was no exercise of will on Lazarus' part.
It is necessary for God to choose us, because surely in our natural condition we would never choose God. If you know your heart, you know that apart from the grace and mercy of God, you would have been surely among the world even now. I know that I would be as hard as a Pharisee, and at variance with Jesus, if it were not for the grace and mercy of God.
God is indeed good.
I honestly do not like this modern practice of raising hands. Whatever happened to closing eyes, bowing heads, and clasping our hands together - not showing our palms?
I have read what you have written in this thread, and in the prayer thread with some care. In my opinion, your faith seems highly charged with emotion, and I do not believe it is sustainable. Eventually emotions become exhausted; in fact, emotions are very temporary and must be constantly topped up with emotional music and words - I noticed that you referenced Hillsong on your signature panel.
I visited Youtube and found exactly the song you referenced. I also saw Hillsong congregants "worshipping". It consisted almost entirely of one camera cut after another of raw emotion.
True faith is not based on a collection of feelings. It is regulated by Scripture, doctrine, and the Church. All of these things are necessary for a groundedness that will sustain us all our lives.
I wonder whether you will be saying the same things in 10 years time.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2008 21:04:43 GMT -5
Jaason, I honestly do not like this modern practice of raising hands. Whatever happened to closing eyes, bowing heads, and clasping our hands together - not showing our palms?
I don't think it is a real new practice. It's been done for quite some time Nehemiah 8
5 Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up.
6 Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Psalm 28
Of David. 1 To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
2 Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.
Psalm 119
47 for I delight in your commands because I love them.
48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
Psalm 63
3Because thy lovingkindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee.
4Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.
Luke 24 The Ascension 50When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them.
51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
1 Timothy 2
7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.Just a comment. I don't see anything wrong with people worshiping in different ways. Scott
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 8, 2008 21:17:41 GMT -5
[I do not believe this is the case. And I do not believe a careful study of the Scriptures leads us to this conclusion.]
If not Jason maybe you dont know Jesus Christ.
Whats wrong with your palms? Something on them? are they tainted? Its biblical to raise your hands to the Lord. Exalting him.
Jason are you baptised in the Holy Spirit?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 8, 2008 21:23:55 GMT -5
Jason God is emotional. Did you know how Jesus weeps? He uses our emotion. Worshiping can be emotional and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it/ Look at the old prophets and tell me they were not emotional.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2008 21:44:02 GMT -5
If you are trying to say that because I hold to Predestination that I do not know Christ Jesus, I would answer that your logic is tortured. Firstly, there are millions of people who hold to such a view; and not so long ago, many of the major Protestant denominations did as well.
Secondly, you - along with others on this forum - keep asserting free will as being absolutely instrumental to salvation. I have cited numerous passages over the past month or so - from Jesus, to Paul, to Peter - as well as respected theologians (R. C. Sproul, Dr. J. White, etc) that show that free will is not a biblical concept. How else is Paul's words, "Ye were servants (slaves) to unrighteousness" but that now we have become "servants (slaves) to righteousness" to be interpreted?
As far as I can tell you have even bothered to touch Romans 9, or John 6:44, or any of the references I have given, and I suggest that this is because these passage - particularly Romans 9 - totally undercuts the philosophy you espouse.
Please do not question my relationship with God, when you cannot dialogue reasonably from God's Word.
Or, perhaps "lifting up holy hands" refers to the spirit of our hearts?
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2008 21:55:27 GMT -5
Jason God is emotional. Did you know how Jesus weeps? He uses our emotion. Worshiping can be emotional and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it/ Look at the old prophets and tell me they were not emotional. Interestingly, I was reading just last night R. C. Sproul's discussion of the Council of Chalcedon and the two natures of Christ. R. C. Sproul explains - rather brilliantly - that we must understand Jesus as fully man and fully God. Does God sweat, weep, grow weary? No, of course not. Jesus' humanity experienced these things, but his divinity did not. Is God the emotional being you claim he is? I say not; not in the sense that humans understand emotion. God's anger, love, compassion, sorrow etc. are holy, and so far above our finite capacity to understand that they must be "made flesh" in the humanity of the person of Jesus. Emotion is not substitute for the Holy Spirit. There is a chasm of difference between the work of the Spirit and the effect of emotion. I would posit that some on this board do not know the difference, and have surely confused emotionalism for the effect of the Spirit - this is evident in the outpouring of their writings which are often incoherent babble of one shade of positive emotion after another. A technicoloured flywheel. The Spirit brings peace. The Spirit brings calm. The Spirit brings rest - and functions as our Teacher. We cannot possibly learn the deep things of the heart if we are quivvering with emotion, stirred up by rock bands and syrupy ballads. Modern Christian music - I am afraid to say - strikes my ear as virtually indistinguishable from what one finds in a Disney film, and has content about as profound as, "Jesus is my boyfriend" as one theologian caustically put it. (I believe modern Christianity has magnified music to the atrophy of the word, prayer and silent reverence). We are to be led by the Spirit into all truth, and into a life of joyous calm. The Spirit als serves as our Comforter when confronted the very real horrors of human existence. Nothing that I read in the Scriptures convinces me that the Spirit turbocharges people with emotions, hypes them up into a frenzy, or makes them wade through a treacle of "love". Love is deeper than that.
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Post by hope on Oct 8, 2008 22:37:47 GMT -5
Amen Scott and Shushy ~ I am surprised that someone as "knowledgable" as GiC doesn't know that numerous places in the bible refer to hands raised... GiC have your read it cover to cover? Or do you just stick only to the writings of Paul as is typical of those who are legalistic, prefering to look at only part of God rather than the whole picture, really beginning opening our hearts to love the Lord can leave us feeling vulnerable and requires more faith than just following the rules - but God is perfect and we can trust in Him, He provides the faith required as we depend on Him for it. By reading the whole bible we get a better picture of who God really is ~ God's heart is for us to Know Him and be Known by Him.
As we get to know Him, love, awe and worship is a natural response to His presence. Indeed it is not a modern thing -neither is the "laying on of hands" by elders to pray over and prophecy - or the application of oil for anointing its all old and new testament - check it out, does your fellowship follow this examples as laid out in the bible. there is nothing in the bible to suggest that "lift up Holy hands" means anything but what it actually said~ humble your self and submit to God lifting up Holy Hands in prayer and worship. I'm surprised that you are only an 1983 Birthday - 25 and yet you are prideful enough to assume that you have all the answers and have nothing to learn. This sort of pride is a more common weakness in older men - be warned brother, for we all have to carefully guard against pride, when God observes us as grasshoppers before Him and beholds overflowing pride in our hearts it causes Him to distance Himself from us~ That sin is there- but if we confess it He is faithful to forgive, don't feel guilty (guilt is satan's way of causing us to hide from God - Genesis) So dont feel guilty about it but do take action, acknowledge it before the Lord, humble yourself, confess and ask Him to help you change and to have more of the humility in Christ. “ God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6 GiC your experience of God is one of "knowledge" - or as the bible descibes ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of who God is~ "3 Without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good 4 Treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God – 5 Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires 7 Always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected." The psalms are just one part of the bible that are CHARGED with emotion - highs and lows- but always in deep communion with God - always running Hard after Him, feeling deeply our dependancy and to "cry out" to God - they were mostly written by David a man the bible describes as "a man after God's own heart" - I seek to be a woman after God's own heart, led by His spirit. I will follow the example of worship I find in the bible. It is deception of Satan to think that we can know about God without getting to know Him- without entering into a relationship with Him. without feeling our dependancy on Him, without recieving His love and it in turn causing out hearts to fill with love for Him. The love that I feel for the Lord grows - and has grown - not gotten less and the more it grows the more I desire it and desire to be closer and closer to Him. I would not swap a relationship with Him for simply seeing God as a distance King locked in the Bible too mighty and busy running the Universe to commune with man . Your attitude to pre-destination is because you do not understand the character or heart of God which is that that all would come to eternal life. We could argue back and forth there is scripture that pretains to both ~ but Jesus called us to "all be as one" lets focus on our similarities so we can edify eachother and not our differences ~ to honor our Saviour. It seems to me that you have read about Him, but from what you have exposed of yourself on this forum for us to observe that You do not Know Him - there is no light shining from you. Knowledge alone does not do justice to the personality of God - your attitude to others and opinion of God is completely devoid of Love- we cannot love until we know the one who loves. we cannot really love those who hate us and despise us without God flowing love from heaven into us, then out of us. As I was reading your posts last night I couldn't help but notice a lack of the fruit of the spirit ~ I do not say these things to condemn you (because condemnation is a fruit of Satan) , but to convict and sharpen you for your edification and purification in Christ, but just as the prophet Nathan rebuked King David I am advising you to really look into your heart and ask who does it belong to? God wants more than your mind, He wants all of you to be taken captive to Christ. Look at how David responded to nathan's rebuke - not by having Him executed (which he could have because he was king ) no instead the Holy Spirit convicted him and he repented, and ran straight to God crying out for mercy. God loves that sort of heart. We all fail and come short but God's mercy is there if we will only humble outselves and cry out for. love is what the bible is really all about - noticabley the only two commandments that Jesus actually commanded, because out of recieving love from God and loving Him back all other fruits of the spirit are concieved, are birthed and grow. and so it all begin with Love - His love. Your attitude is common to those who know about God but haven't experienced Him for themselves. Your attitude is in my experience very common of those in the 2x2. All you have to do is humble yourself and say "Lord if what they are saying is true - show me" You demonstrate your lack of love in many ways, you use words that are unaccessible to an average reader because you don't care about reaching people or as the bible describes "sharpening" others but only to puff yourself up while cutting others down and seeking to raise yourself up above others - you certainly don't mimic Jesus by humbling yourself and "washing our feet", you mimic the Pharisees by bringing scathing condemnation without any love prefering to throw stones and Thank God that you are so above us all. - I cannot say for sure but from what I can testify of you Truly you certainly seem like a modern day Pharisee the sort that Jesus would fiercly rebuke. I have prayed earnestly for you~ Check your heart brother ~ can you really say you are guided by the Spirit? Where is the humility and the love that are the marks of Christ within? Even if you don't accept my faith this is biblical advice applicable to any believer.
God created man for one purpose - to worship~ and to bring others to the place of worship by assisting them in deepening their relationship with God. The great commision for every believer~ "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
God be with us, may He be our teacher, and in His mercy may He open our eyes and soften our hearts, teaching us how to walk humbly with Him, In Jesus name~ Amen
Hope
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Post by hope on Oct 8, 2008 23:44:27 GMT -5
I will agree with you that some modern Christian bands lack the depth in their music required to bring a heart to worship- But I find that many cases the of best modern Christian worship bands music mostly has lyrics taken directly from the bible.
An interesting fact is that the hymns we sing today and consider to be "more holy" were once bible verses and truths sung to bar/ pub music from hundreds of years ago. In an attempt to evangelise many christians hundreds of years ago took popular tunes of their time and wrote Christian lyrics to it so they could go and perform it in pubs and as the locals sang along they were learning about the bible -Similar to the heart of Christian bands today~~
The KJV of the bible in its time was written / translated into the vernacular language (spoken) of time -similar to today it being translated into ghetto or at least very simplistic language~ It sounds fancy to us but compared to the language of the time it was "lower class" language that was used to make it more accessible to the "commoners" - Interesting eh?
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Post by hope on Oct 9, 2008 0:04:44 GMT -5
Open palms - hand high - to quote someone else "raising the hands coerces our unreliable and wayward thoughts and feelings and sets them on their proper object. " Raising my hands for me is submissive it is a posture of worship and keeps me more focused on the lord, I do it because it is biblical and because it has been something that has helped me enter into the Spirit of Worship~ This is just my opinion and experience~ God will teach you what He wants you to do.
*surrenderd and vulnerable, holding back nothing, hiding nothing
Again not my own words but this writer says it better than I could~~ "such postures bear a public witness to the fact that the church is in the very presence of God and that he is speaking to God. I grew up in worship that was largely disembodied and I feel now that the great weakness of that worship was precisely that it did not convey to the soul or to the congregation or to the world that in the high worship of the Lord’s Day the saints were coram Deo, in the very presence of God. The fact that we did not act like we were in God’s presence contributed mightily to this lack. "
Lord I am Yours~ Thank-you for Your promise never to forsake Your own~ We love you Lord, teach us to Love - Blast us with your Holy Spirit so we are unable to deny Your power and Glory any longer!
In Jesus name break the guaze of Deception Satan has placed over our eyes and let us see you with new revelation and new eyes, Lord may we keep learning by your Holy Spirit, you have promised in your word that you will be our teacher - Lord we call on that promise, may we continue to see you in every aspect of our lives, may we continue to see we are your beloved~ and you seek intimacy with us, not a spirit of religion or fear but a spirit of Praise, for Praising You releases Your power upon us~~ Praise you Lord!
Lord I pray that you would give me a heart of love for all on this board, Lord I confess my own pride before others and You and repent of my own pride, Lord I had thought it was gone but in adversary as my beliefs are challenged Lord I feel it rising in my heart again ~ Lord bring Your Holy Fire on this heart and burn up my pride and every impure thought that is not from You, Lord I call on your For humbling experiences - Lord I am willing so that I can be more like You~ for it is only in humilty that we can enter into communion with you ~ Lord do not withdraw from us~ only YOu can make me Holy, Lord I pray that YOu would continue Your mighty work In Jesus name
Father I pray that all here including myself would be anointed with the Spirit of a Child that we would hunger to learn and that we would grow from you alone and that we would not seek to raise ourselves above others, Lord I repent if any of my word we're cutting and not edifying, Forgive me Lord in Jesus name as I seek to forgive others also.
Lord I pray that in our differences there can be sharpening and unity amongst us, pour out the healing oil of your love on us that will allow things to run smoothly and with out friction. Lord we pray that you would give us Your heart for eachother, that we would as Jesus pleaded "all be as one". Lord help us to remember that men are not our enemies but Satan alone and how he uses even Your Holy word to bring division amonst us. Lord heal us and bind us together in love, In Jesus Name~
Amen
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 9, 2008 0:22:58 GMT -5
Two things here. Firstly you seem to look down on knowledge, as though it were somehow bad or corrupting to one's faith. I wonder how you understand Peter's words: " Add to your faith knowledge?" It may come as a surprise to you, but I have sought to gain knowledge - pertaining to doctrine, theologies, religious philosophy and canonical issues of the Bible - in order to strengthen my brethren when wrestling with an intellectual attack on their faith. Secondly: I never said I was unaware of hands being raised in Scripture. I only stated that I do not like this practice. It has not been a Christian practice for centuries - it's renewal seems to me to be contrived, and symbolic of a new kind of religious experience that is not coherent with Apostolic Christianity. Note please, that this is merely my opinion. Did you know that for the first few hundred years of the Christian Church, there were some communities who only possessed parts of the Scripture? Some communities only had access to Paul's writings. The fact that you seem to associate Pauline Scripture with legalism tells me a lot about your understanding of the nature of Scripture. Is not all of Scripture "God-breathed"? Does the Holy Spirit not work through every page of the Scriptures? Can Scripture err, or can Scripture lead us to error? Assuredly, it does not. Actually, some of my favourite books are in the Old Testament - Malachi, Isaiah, and the Proverbs. But my attention is mostly focussed on the New. My favourite books being John's Gospel, The Epistle to the Romans, Hebrews, Jude's Epistle, and James' Epistle. And I would suggest to you that your idea of God is not consistent with the Scriptures, as I shall shortly demonstrate. Who denies this? I do not. The oil for anointing does not appear anywhere in the New Testament in any meaningful religious sense. The New Testament points to the anointing wrought by the Holy Spirit. The only references are to be found in Mark 6:13, and James 5:14, and in neither instance is the oil attributed any special value, or prescribed in any sense other than a recommendation or purely medicinal sense. I conclude that the anointing of believers with oil is not a New Testament practice. I wonder how you consider yourself qualified or equipped to pass judgement on my soul in this way? Does not Paul - the Apostle you apparently hold in low regard - say that every man " stands or falls before his own master?" This passage - and I notice you excise the first two verses - describes the state of "man" in the "last days". If the "last days" are taken according to correct doctrine, meaning all the time that will elapse between Jesus' ascension and return, then this passage is a current description of the world. Apparently you are alleging that I am of the world! Ironically, this passage confirms the Doctrine of Predestination. Your translation finishes by stating, " ...who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected..." Who rejects them - man or God? God. What are they rejected from? They are rejected from the faith. How are they rejected? By God's will. On what grounds are they rejected? Because they are sinful to the extreme and oppose the truth. Why do they oppose the truth? Because they have depraved minds. What does a depraved mind lead them to? It leads them to be at total emnity with God. Can they turn freely back to God? No. Why not? Because God has rejected them. I will agree that a range of human experience is reflected in the Psalms, including some deep and potent emotions. I think you are misconstruing my perspective: I am not saying that having emotions is evil. I am saying that emotionalism is not Spirit. I agree. Who is saying otherwise? Do you seriously believe that this is my perspective of God? Or are you wilfully distorting and torturing my view in order to exagerrate some impersonality that I do not hold? If I believed this about God I would have to reject both his omnipotence and his omniscience. Evidently I do not reject either. I view God as a great and mighty LORD. I tremble in reverence before him. I am smitten with my own weak comprehension; and by my own inadequacy - the word "unworthy" can never do justice to my feelings of profound emptiness when I come before God. I am smitten by God's inestimable holiness; of God's unlimited Sovereignty. And I recognise I am completely at the mercy of God, even for my next breath. My comprehension of God is one of purity, holiness, and perfection. These are the attributes of God that inspire me to humble submission before him, and a clinging to the all-sufficient Saviour. Your presentation of my views about God are sadly in error. My "attitude" to Predestination (i.e. I hold to Predestination) has not come without many tears, and many prayers. Furthermore, I cannot deny Scripture: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)This is an interesting passage. God does not call a man, unless he has first predestinated them. Paul explains when this happens in the first chapter of Ephesians: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will... (Ephesians 1:4-5)As Paul maintains: God's choosing - the election of men and women to eternal life - happened prior to the creation of the world! God is omniscient. He knows all things from eternity to eternity. In Romans 9, Paul writes: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (Romans 9:11-14)Here Paul uses the example of Jacob and Esau to demonstrate election. The children were not yet born; they had not acted in any moral capacity, yet God declared the junior would serve the elder, and even declared a higher love for Jacob, and a lesser for Esau. The first objection the unwilling man raises to this, is, "That's unfair! God is being unfair!". Paul is well versed in this response, it would seem, because immediately he answers, " Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!" Have you ever wondered why Jesus said, " I lay down my life for the sins of many", rather than the sins of "all"? I have provided Scripture. I doubt very much you have investigated this teaching - and I sincerely doubt you could cite many references to maintain your claim. I have never claimed to be perfect. I have always been open about that. I am a very sinful, very imperfect, flawed and small man. I have never claimed to be anything else. I am glad then, that you are not my Judge. I think that it is a bit of a fib, don't you agree? I think you do say these things to condemn! Who else would be able to make these sorts of statements but one who assumes the position of judge? I thank you for your concern.. Can you tell me the exact number of prayers I have offered up? The number of tears I have shed when praying? The number of hours I have spent reading the Scriptures? Can you tell me the content of my earnest and desperate prayers? If you cannot, why judgest thou me? You neither understand my thinking, nor have you apparently considered the possibility that I am correct - emotion is not the same as Spirit. Quite untrue. Also untrue. [/b]by humbling yourself and "washing our feet", you mimic the Pharisees by bringing scathing condemnation without any love prefering to throw stones and Thank God that you are so above us all. [/quote] H'mmm... I remember now... you aren't condeming me at all; you're attempting to "convict" me! My "condemnation" - I consider it more along the lines of disagreement with alternative views - but my "condemnation" is based wholly on the Bible as informed by systematic theology. If you can show me where I have erred in my interpretation of the Scriptures, please do so! My first instinct is to respond to these claims you are making about what Jesus would say to me, and what is in my heart. I must say, that assuming yourself to be an expert on my spiritual condition and then lecturing me about it, is not endearing. I shall regard your comments about my lack of humility, my distorted view of God, my being puffed up, my being full of vain knowledge, your identification of me with the worldly reprobates, your statement that I would be rebuked by none other than Jesus himself for practicing modern day Pharisaism etc. as your efforts to assist me in deepening my relationship with God. Thank you. I cannot tell you how warm and rosy your assistance makes me feel!
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Post by hope on Oct 9, 2008 0:32:11 GMT -5
I think its also important to realise that it isn't always amazing and powerful joy~ if it was always easy to worship then we would become complacant. Look at the Psalms David underwent many trials to refine his faith. trials that left him discouraged, the following Psalm is always once of Praise because God has been faithful.
Recently - last month - I went through a month of intense spiritual attack. For no apparent reason God shrouded His face (I knew He was there but it was so hard to draw close to Him), it became increasingly difficult for me to enter into praise and to worship Him. The only emotion I experience for that time was distress and longing to be closer to Him. I spent increased time in prayer - thought I really struggled to want to pray - but I did - and once I did the prayer time was good - though my heart was distressed not worshipping - Satan took this opportunity to war viciously against me, attacking me in various ways, physically , emotionally and spiritually.
Just as I thought I couldnt take anymore and was starting to feel dispair, God lifted the time of testing and I felt His love in a most powerful way, I felt so assured of His love and it was so present~ I realised that at times He hides His face to see how much we really love Him - He tests us - Job, Abraham - there are numerous examples in the bible, He lets us go through times where its a struggle to commit our way to Him to serve and worship Him so that we are refined and so we grow.
I believe that the testing and spiritual attack was permitted by God - to refine me, to help me grow and to make my faith steadfast and teach me to persevere. What followed the time of testing was so encouraging that I would welcome another month like that. He seems more glorious to me than before because of it! God tests to refine those that He loves.
It is not all emotion driven~ there must be perservance and transformation by the refining of the Holy Spirit and the sword of the word, but worship is imporant it is our purpose and your heart should be worshipping~
In heaven this will be our main occupation, if you are not practiced and enjoying it now would you even want to be there?
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Post by hope on Oct 9, 2008 1:15:12 GMT -5
To GIC
I repent
I probabley have judged you too harshly~ My harsh judgement was probably born from the fact that my faith is often attacked by 2x2 who feel threatened by it, who are just as harsh and unloving as you appear to be so I immediately connect you with those I know - my human error (from what you have promclaimed as your relationship with God - but without witnessing the good fruit it was a natural assumption to come to) As harsh as my judgement was I was not done with a heart to hurt or tear down - (condemn) but a heart to convict, shake/wake up.
I said what was in my heart from what I have witnessed of you and your attitude - but I do not know you or your heart - God does, He sees your tears and hears your prayers. He is your Judge not me. I do repent and seek your forgiveness.
I hold all of the bible in high regard (I noticed you didnt answer my question about having read it cover to cover -and you don't have to its not me you have to answer to - consider it a rhetorical question, don't simply react to me and reflect and allow God to move and convict) -
I do not disregard pauls letter, I love them~ my bible is without a doubt in my mind my most treasured and essential posession, I fear their ever being religious oppression in my time where i live (esp at the moment) and it being taken from me, it has the words of life that I feed and drink from.
I also do not distain education, I have done some biblical training myself for times that I have gone out on the mission field and at one of the training sessions it was it was quoted
"God does not need our knowledge but He does not need our ignorance either" its important to learn from those who loved God in the past and what He taught them during their walk with Him on earth. I value knowledge ~ as I quoted before
"3 Without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good 4 Treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God – 5 Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires 7 Always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
many use their knowledge as a supplement for knowing God and being immersed in His spirit. They are all about the rules and not about acknowledgin the spirit world that the bible proclaims.
peace and love brother~ may God carry You in His arms
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Post by hope on Oct 9, 2008 1:36:53 GMT -5
New Testament Anointing with Oil~
In the book of James, the inspired writer exhorts: “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up” (5:14, 15).
There is another place in the new testament that I was reading last night it is referred to /commanded ~ I will look it up later when I get a chance
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Post by hope on Oct 9, 2008 2:03:10 GMT -5
We are to be led by the Spirit into all truth, and into a life of joyous calm. The Spirit als serves as our Comforter when confronted the very real horrors of human existence. Nothing that I read in the Scriptures convinces me that the Spirit turbocharges people with emotions, hypes them up into a frenzy, or makes them wade through a treacle of "love". Love is deeper than that. 2 Samuel 6:13-17,20-23 Now King David was told, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God." So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart. .....When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!" David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel — I will celebrate before the LORD. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor." And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death. King David - a man after God's own heart - dancing and worshipping before the Lord in such emotion that his robes were falling off - His wife despised Him for it because His love was so directed towards the Lord and not as much to her~ He describes himself as "undignified" in worship~ Jeremiah 3:31-3-5 "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness. I will build you up again and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel. Again you will take up your tambourines and go out to dance with the joyful." Exodus 15:19-21 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea. And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. There are many many other verses in the bible that support open worship ~ Love is an emotion AND much deeper than that too~
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Post by hope on Oct 9, 2008 2:40:27 GMT -5
James 4 Drawing Close to God 1 What is causing the quarrels and fights among you? Don’t they come from the evil desires at war within you? 2 You want what you don’t have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous of what others have, but you can’t get it, so you fight and wage war to take it away from them. Yet you don’t have what you want because you don’t ask God for it. 3 And even when you ask, you don’t get it because your motives are all wrong—you want only what will give you pleasure. 4 You adulterers! Don’t you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God. 5 What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that the spirit God has placed within us is filled with envy? 6 But he gives us even more grace to stand against such evil desires. As the Scriptures say,
“God opposes the proud but favors the humble.”[c]
7 So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come close to God, and God will come close to you. Wash your hands, you sinners; purify your hearts, for your loyalty is divided between God and the world. 9 Let there be tears for what you have done. Let there be sorrow and deep grief. Let there be sadness instead of laughter, and gloom instead of joy. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up in honor.
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Post by landdownunder on Oct 9, 2008 7:46:08 GMT -5
Calvinism - systematic theology - teaches that God has the power to create "vessels unto honour, and vessels unto wrath" - I agree with Augustine: this means some are predestined to hell, and others to heaven. You will object (as most do, even Christian folk), that God is unfair. Paul answers this objection also: "Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!" Or you will say that this is a God you would never worship. My answer is, "I know. And unless God takes away your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh you never will." Well we agree on something. There is a strong thread of Calvinism running through the entire bible. You are very unusual, being a F&W meeting person and believing this. You and me, we would be in a small minority, likely 10% or less. Other parts of scripture seem to emphasise free will. Neither you, me nor Hope will understand it perfectly, in this life. But yes, I definitely believe that God chose me. And you. And Hope. We are so steeped in sin in our unregenerate state that it is impossible without God's Holy Spirit draws us, for us to seek God first. That is biblical truth too. The elect of God, chosen in Him from before the foundation of the earth. This is biblical truth. As is the fact that we choose to love Him because he first loved us. Or that we choose to either present our bodies as living sacrifices, daily, or to not yield them to the Holy Spirit within. HOPE: It is indeed interesting that you and I were both born in the same year, and are exactly the same age, yet our perceptions of Christianity are so wildly divergent. In my opinion, your faith seems highly charged with emotion, and I do not believe it is sustainable. Eventually emotions become exhausted; in fact, emotions are very temporary and must be constantly topped up with emotional music and words I see Hope as a stimulating young lady, very encouraging, a sister in Christ, who seeks a close and intimate relationship with our Father God and with the Lord Jesus Christ. Her close relationship (I have no doubt) is one that you and I should jealously desire. Because if we desire closeness with God he has promised it will happen. I could worry more about your doctrinal learning Jason sustaining you, more than Hope's degree of intimacy with God sustaining her. As for God being emotional, God whom I know is very emotional, demonstrative, has an eye for beauty and perfection and fine detail as well as being just, holy, righteous, judge, merciful, full of grace, love, sense of humour. And he craves intimacy with us, God who runs to meet the repentant sinner (prodigal) and falls on us and covers us with many kisses... the list of God's attributes is more than we can ever imagine or document. If God in the parable of the prodigal son is not emotional, I don't know what is.
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Post by selah on Oct 9, 2008 13:43:26 GMT -5
landdownunder, I think you touched on something very important when you said,
This was the exact concern Jesus had for the faithful Torah-believing Jews. Jesus came for the very reason of restoring RELATIONSHIP between people and His Father. Relationship IS EMOTIONAL. Without it, we have a mere set of doctrines or a belief system which can neither give eternal life or the profound dimension of experiencing the true love of our heavenly Father.
God is REAL. Our faith should not be founded on our beliefs, doctrines, traditions etc. Our faith should be founded on our real, living, loving and emotional God.
Emotions are not a negative thing. We have tear ducts, we love to laugh, our hearts swell with emotion...God made us in His image. These are GOOD things. It is the enemy who would try to deceive us into believing otherwise. He seeks to rob us of these incredibly beautiful and poignant expressions of the heart.
Blessings Linda
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 9, 2008 19:48:38 GMT -5
The long night of the soul - I think we have all experienced it. But is this the same as "spiritual attack"? I would be inclined to say no on the basis that the Church is a haven; a sanctuary from the power of Satan. As Paul said of the incestuous man, "I will hand him over to Satan that he learn not to sin", by which, of course, he meant excommunicate him.
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Post by degem on Oct 9, 2008 19:58:11 GMT -5
I am in no way mocking anyone when I say this but I have never heard of "praying the scriptures" before until I read over the thread "21 days of intercession."
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 9, 2008 20:02:21 GMT -5
There is nothing to forgive - it belongs to a forgiven past. All is well again. (But thank you for your repentance.)
I am sure my brethren do not mean to "attack" you. They truly believe they are doing the service of God - I imagine they would have concerns about you; concerns as to your doctrine and beliefs; and although they may seem hard - they are only as hard as Paul when confronting something they deem to be serious. Within they have a heart where God dwells.
No. I will respond to the question. Have I read the Bible as a sequence from cover-to-cover? No. Have I read the entire Bible? Yes. Have I carefully studied the New Testament? Yes.
Interesting. What sort of training have you done? You mention going out on the mission field - which church orchestrated that? I'd be interested - out of plain curiosity - to know!
H'mmm... Well it did not seem that way given some of your remarks earlier.
The Apostle Jude was addressing the nascent Gnosticism in the Church - this is why it is not only necessary to know the content of the Bible, but its context.
The Gnostics, of course, prized secret knowledge. They believed salvation came through acquiring this secret knowledge, and thus becoming enlightened. Their religion had one degree of learning after another. Truly, they were "always learning, and never coming to the knowledge of the truth".
And also to you. Peace, -GiC
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 9, 2008 20:10:47 GMT -5
But let us look carefully at this text. What saves the sick? The prayer of faith. How does the prayer of faith save the sick? The Lord responds to faithful prayer. How does the Lord respond? By raising up him that is sick.
I conclude from this passage that this commendation to anoint the sick with oil was not the establishment of a New Testament rite; but was a medicinal action. Oil was used in this way in ancient Israel.
It is in Mark's Gospel, and it is not a command.
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Post by degem on Oct 9, 2008 20:14:21 GMT -5
I can't find the post right now but I believe someone said that they had Physically felt the presence of God upon (or around) them. I understand spiritually feeling the presence of God but how does one know of the physical presence of God? What does it feel like? My questions probably sound as clear as mud.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 9, 2008 20:17:18 GMT -5
I agree. And it pains my heart immensely to consider that some among my brethren would not be open to these truths, even though they are entirely biblical. I think it is the name "Calvinism" that turns people off; it still turns me off to this day. And indeed, Calvin himself hated the term. You've expressed this truth very concisely and neatly - much better than my rather verbose explanations! Yes indeed. We are in full agreement on this matter. As above! This is an encouraging thought. Rest assured, I do not draw upon doctrines to feed my soul. I acknowledge that we can cultivate the most orthodox TULIP garden in the world, and still not have recieved salvation in the Lord. Peace be unto you, -GiC
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