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Post by trevybear on Feb 12, 2011 17:38:52 GMT -5
They call Jesus a wine-bibber (an alcoholic) because he drank wine. I have traveled some of the world and was in Greece for a couple conventions. I saw most of the workers and the friends drinking wine at the pre convention barbecue on the convention grounds. I have seen many of the friends with and drinking wine and beer etc. The elder for Athens, Greece went with me for supper and we both drank beer. I have heard many people say that Jesus drank grape juice. The only thing I can see in the bible that Jesus was called an alcoholic. It says that John did not drink but it does not say that Jesus didn't drink wine. Jesus turned the water to wine at the wedding in the bible. And what about Lot? The only thing about drinking in the bible is where it says not to be given to strong drink. So hard liquor can be dangerous and not healthy like wine is.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 12, 2011 18:12:04 GMT -5
I am moving this thread in keeping with our policy on not debating doctrinal issues in Coffee Talk. There is an archive of questions for the workers there, but there was evidently little response from the workers, and this sort of discussion has been dropped on that board, though many of these questions have been oft-discussed here on the main board.
Al
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lauri
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Post by lauri on Feb 12, 2011 18:28:29 GMT -5
yes. preferably a nice merlot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 19:10:52 GMT -5
Jesus turned water into grape juice around here. Jesus neither drank wine nor offered it to anyone. Now you know the Truth!
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Post by kiwi on Feb 12, 2011 21:49:32 GMT -5
Jesus turned water into grape juice around here. Jesus neither drank wine nor offered it to anyone. Now you know the Truth! The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber,
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Post by JO on Feb 12, 2011 22:00:30 GMT -5
Jesus turned water into grape juice around here. Jesus neither drank wine nor offered it to anyone. Now you know the Truth! What Jesus turned the water into depends on where in the world you live.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 22:08:14 GMT -5
Jesus turned water into grape juice around here. Jesus neither drank wine nor offered it to anyone. Now you know the Truth! What Jesus turned the water into depends on where in the world you live. Happens a lot.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Feb 13, 2011 5:51:16 GMT -5
I've not found any scripture that prohibits drinking wine, not sure what 'strong drink' would have been.
There is plenty to suggest drunkenness is an issue, a sin, even. Its in the same categary as gluttony, laziness etc.
My conviction is that a beer or wine or two or three is not a sin. A dozen probably is.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 5:53:21 GMT -5
Trevybear - depends on where you live as to whether the fellowship accept alcohol. There are two issues involved here: 1 - alcohol in moderation is good 2 - alcohol can lead to addiction
Paul reminded us that we should not do anything which might be the fall of another, ie he could drink wine, but some weaker members, who perhaps could have a problem with drink, might justify trying it "because Paul drinks too."
We take grape juice in the meeting. Some take real wine.
Arguments that "wine" back then were "only grape juice" are tiresome and ridiculous.
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Post by fred on Feb 13, 2011 6:16:27 GMT -5
Is there a reason why your meeting uses grape juice bert, or is it just a tradition? It seems that the vast majority of meetings in NSW (even perhaps Australia) use wine as instructed. Wine is used at conventions on Sunday morning as well. I remember it was certain workers that taught the younger set (at Uni) that grape juice would have been the drink used in Jesus' day. Hard to fool the young thinkers, eh? I guess they thought his words were a bit tiresome.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 6:32:12 GMT -5
Fred, if a Worker told me that Jesus drank grape juice I would have a quiet word with him ;D Yes, I know plenty of NSW drink wine. We grew up with that. Feels more real to me, to be honest.
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Post by 2 on Feb 13, 2011 6:38:03 GMT -5
We take grape juice in the meeting. Some take real wine. Arguments that "wine" back then were "only grape juice" are tiresome and ridiculous. perhaps....yes, tiresome but maybe not ridiculous? when squeezing juice from grapes, we get grape juice, if properly bottled, this juice can last a long time. if it is opened, it soons begins the fermentation cycle. they real discussion, is at what point is grape juice at its finest? if we believe that any amount of 'alcoholic content' creates a compromise , then we abstain from partaking of that form of juice, when does grape juice literally become/contain trace amounts of alcohol? i believe that the threshhold of this conversion, is why people continue to debate what the answer is. fruit of the vine/vs aloholic wine, vs nonalcoholic wine..... so many choices, so little time to figure it out!?
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Post by fred on Feb 13, 2011 6:52:22 GMT -5
We take grape juice in the meeting. Some take real wine. Arguments that "wine" back then were "only grape juice" are tiresome and ridiculous. perhaps....yes, tiresome but maybe not ridiculous? when squeezing juice from grapes, we get grape juice, if properly bottled, this juice can last a long time. if it is opened, it soons begins the fermentation cycle. they real discussion, is at what point is grape juice at its finest? if we believe that any amount of 'alcoholic content' creates a compromise , then we abstain from partaking of that form of juice, when does grape juice literally become/contain trace amounts of alcohol? i believe that the threshhold of this conversion, is why people continue to debate what the answer is. fruit of the vine/vs aloholic wine, vs nonalcoholic wine..... so many choices, so little time to figure it out!? Mmm........ a little study in the area of food preservation might be in order here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 8:33:37 GMT -5
Definitely would be an interesting study. I suspect many teetotalers would be horrified to discover that they are not teetotalers but willing consumers of alcohol, even though their consumption is minute.
Vanilla extract (and imitation vanilla) is probably the most commonly used food which is loaded with alcohol.
Apparently apple juice and grape juice all contain alcohol, some as high as 1% but most would be considerably lower.
Many sauces such as teriyaki sauce and soy sauce contain alcohol.
Then there are mouthwashes. Listerine contains alcohol as high as whiskey. Cough medicines are pretty high too.
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Post by rational on Feb 13, 2011 9:41:10 GMT -5
We take grape juice in the meeting. Some take real wine. Arguments that "wine" back then were "only grape juice" are tiresome and ridiculous. perhaps....yes, tiresome but maybe not ridiculous? when squeezing juice from grapes, we get grape juice, if properly bottled, this juice can last a long time. Considering biblical times, how would this happen? A pasteurization cycle before bottling? In what kind of a bottle do you think wine was stored? Are you implying that a closed bottle of grape juice will not ferment? Unfermented grape juice would have been available for only a short time following the harvest. Some claim that the grape juice was concentrated by boiling into a syrup resulting in what would have been similar to grape jelly. Using this method the alcohol would have been boiled off. Claims of the possibility of this sort of preservation are frequently presented to 'prove' that Jesus did not drink wine and do not seem to have wide support. It depends on how fermented you like your grape juice. While it is being squeezed the yeast is excreting ethanol. Wine, be definition, has fermented. Non-alcoholic wine would have been difficult (impossible) to make with the technology available at the time. Vacuum distillation, reverse osmosis, and even regular distillation were not available. Wines produced today would have classified as strong drink in the bible. There was no way to fortify wines so the maximum amount of alcohol would have been in the 15% range. Most wine, it is believed, was diluted with water before drinking. Strong drink would have been undiluted wine. So with wines being produced in the 5-7% range and then diluted 3:1 with water it would have been difficult to catch a buzz!
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Post by rational on Feb 13, 2011 9:46:38 GMT -5
Many sauces such as teriyaki sauce and soy sauce contain alcohol. When you are going with soy sauce I would always use the naturally brewed (Kikkoman Company) over the acidified hydrolyzed soy protein (ConAgra). But each to their own!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 10:08:26 GMT -5
It depends on the yeast. Some experts claim they can get the alcohol content as high as 30% while others claim 18% is easily attained.
Dilute 18% by 50% on one glass, and you will probably catch a buzz on an empty stomach.
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Post by rational on Feb 13, 2011 10:43:05 GMT -5
It depends on the yeast. Some experts claim they can get the alcohol content as high as 30% while others claim 18% is easily attained. I was considering the native yeasts of the time/area. To get these yields I am guessing the vintners kill the indigenous yeast with some agent (SO 2 was the favored choice but now has fallen into disuse) and then introduce strains that can survive in higher levels of alcohol, something unavailable for most of history.
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Post by 2 on Feb 13, 2011 14:01:00 GMT -5
perhaps....yes, tiresome but maybe not ridiculous? when squeezing juice from grapes, we get grape juice, if properly bottled, this juice can last a long time. Considering biblical times, how would this happen? A pasteurization cycle before bottling? In what kind of a bottle do you think wine was stored? Are you implying that a closed bottle of grape juice will not ferment? Unfermented grape juice would have been available for only a short time following the harvest. Some claim that the grape juice was concentrated by boiling into a syrup resulting in what would have been similar to grape jelly. Using this method the alcohol would have been boiled off. Claims of the possibility of this sort of preservation are frequently presented to 'prove' that Jesus did not drink wine and do not seem to have wide support. It depends on how fermented you like your grape juice. While it is being squeezed the yeast is excreting ethanol. Wine, be definition, has fermented. Non-alcoholic wine would have been difficult (impossible) to make with the technology available at the time. Vacuum distillation, reverse osmosis, and even regular distillation were not available. Wines produced today would have classified as strong drink in the bible. There was no way to fortify wines so the maximum amount of alcohol would have been in the 15% range. Most wine, it is believed, was diluted with water before drinking. Strong drink would have been undiluted wine. So with wines being produced in the 5-7% range and then diluted 3:1 with water it would have been difficult to catch a buzz! at what point does grape juice cause impaired judgement, (ie: as in, under the influence) we can have driving laws, that say what is : 'considered safely within the normal non-impaired influence', and if we disagree with that definition, we can disagree. does alcohol really impair a persons judgement? i think it does, but i have to admit to very little experimenting along that issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 14:15:47 GMT -5
When ancient Vikings needed to make a major decision, they would ponder it while sober and while drunk. If their conclusion was the same under both circumstances, they went ahead. Soberness revealed what they thought about the choice, drunkenness revealed what they felt about it. So it was a way of lining up the heart and mind.
Biblically, drunkenness is quite consistently taught against, but moderation is in biblical favour, perhaps more so than teetotalling. In fact, I don't think that teetotalling is actually advocated at all in the bible, perhaps but nothing comes to mind immediately.
Today, alcohol is much less favoured than other methods to improve one's life or address other problems. Today, we have a wide variety of drugs ranging from ASA to uptake- inhibitors to morphine and so on even though they are just doing what wine did for the ancients. Many of these drugs put people into varying states of impairment and sometimes addiction yet few fundamentalist Christians speak against them. Just another example of lack of understanding or downright hypocrisy that sometimes emerges from Christian thought.
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Post by 2 on Feb 13, 2011 14:20:06 GMT -5
When ancient Vikings needed to make a major decision, they would ponder it while sober and while drunk. If their conclusion was the same under both circumstances, they went ahead. Soberness revealed what they thought about the choice, drunkenness revealed what they felt about it. So it was a way of lining up the heart and mind. Biblically, drunkenness is quite consistently taught against, but moderation is in biblical favour, perhaps more so than teetotalling. In fact, I don't think that teetotalling is actually advocated at all in the bible, perhaps but nothing comes to mind immediately. Today, alcohol is much less favoured than other methods to improve one's life or address other problems. Today, we have a wide variety of drugs ranging from ASA to uptake- inhibitors to morphine and so on even though they are just doing what wine did for the ancients. Many of these drugs put people into varying states of impairment and sometimes addiction yet few fundamentalist Christians speak against them. Just another example of lack of understanding or downright hypocrisy that sometimes emerges from Christian thought. i understand that Samson was a teetotaler, but that didn't mean he couldn't make a major mistake.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Feb 13, 2011 15:17:04 GMT -5
at what point does grape juice cause impaired judgement, (ie: as in, under the influence) we can have driving laws, that say what is : 'considered safely within the normal non-impaired influence', and if we disagree with that definition, we can disagree. does alcohol really impair a persons judgement? i think it does, but i have to admit to very little experimenting along that issue. In my younger days I found 3 or 4 beers made me an excellent pool player. After the 6th I was rubbish again I drove mildy intoxicated once and vowed never to do it again. I was not very drunk, but the loss of some fine motor skills and concentration scared the cr@p outta me, so never again. - appreciating your POV on this topic Bert and fred. I agree, wine felt more authentic. I went to a meeting once where grape juice was used. It felt a little wierd. Not even sure what type of wine was used - in Qld I think mostly something like muscat or similar.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2011 15:56:48 GMT -5
When ancient Vikings needed to make a major decision, they would ponder it while sober and while drunk. If their conclusion was the same under both circumstances, they went ahead. Soberness revealed what they thought about the choice, drunkenness revealed what they felt about it. So it was a way of lining up the heart and mind. Biblically, drunkenness is quite consistently taught against, but moderation is in biblical favour, perhaps more so than teetotalling. In fact, I don't think that teetotalling is actually advocated at all in the bible, perhaps but nothing comes to mind immediately. Today, alcohol is much less favoured than other methods to improve one's life or address other problems. Today, we have a wide variety of drugs ranging from ASA to uptake- inhibitors to morphine and so on even though they are just doing what wine did for the ancients. Many of these drugs put people into varying states of impairment and sometimes addiction yet few fundamentalist Christians speak against them. Just another example of lack of understanding or downright hypocrisy that sometimes emerges from Christian thought. To be properly Biblical you should drink some wine. It should be alcoholic wine in order to do something for thine often infirmities. 1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 13, 2011 21:40:59 GMT -5
In the age to come, "the threshing floors will be filled with grain; the vats will overflow with new wine and oil."
If you aren't allowed to drink, you're gonna be missing out!
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Post by Sylvestra on Feb 13, 2011 23:07:39 GMT -5
When ancient Vikings needed to make a major decision, they would ponder it while sober and while drunk. If their conclusion was the same under both circumstances, they went ahead. Soberness revealed what they thought about the choice, drunkenness revealed what they felt about it. So it was a way of lining up the heart and mind. Biblically, drunkenness is quite consistently taught against, but moderation is in biblical favour, perhaps more so than teetotalling. In fact, I don't think that teetotalling is actually advocated at all in the bible, perhaps but nothing comes to mind immediately. Today, alcohol is much less favoured than other methods to improve one's life or address other problems. Today, we have a wide variety of drugs ranging from ASA to uptake- inhibitors to morphine and so on even though they are just doing what wine did for the ancients. Many of these drugs put people into varying states of impairment and sometimes addiction yet few fundamentalist Christians speak against them. Just another example of lack of understanding or downright hypocrisy that sometimes emerges from Christian thought. To be properly Biblical you should drink some wine. It should be alcoholic wine in order to do something for thine often infirmities. 1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. Our "often" infirmities? Does this mean we can drink when our spouses and kids are a pain in the &%# ?
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Post by rational on Feb 14, 2011 1:19:14 GMT -5
In the age to come, "the threshing floors will be filled with grain; the vats will overflow with new wine and oil." If you aren't allowed to drink, you're gonna be missing out! Plus the floor is going to be a mess!
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Post by quizzer on Feb 14, 2011 13:41:28 GMT -5
Bottoms up!
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Post by goodapollo on Feb 16, 2011 10:58:18 GMT -5
When ancient Vikings needed to make a major decision, they would ponder it while sober and while drunk. If their conclusion was the same under both circumstances, they went ahead. Soberness revealed what they thought about the choice, drunkenness revealed what they felt about it. So it was a way of lining up the heart and mind. Biblically, drunkenness is quite consistently taught against, but moderation is in biblical favour, perhaps more so than teetotalling. In fact, I don't think that teetotalling is actually advocated at all in the bible, perhaps but nothing comes to mind immediately. Today, alcohol is much less favoured than other methods to improve one's life or address other problems. Today, we have a wide variety of drugs ranging from ASA to uptake- inhibitors to morphine and so on even though they are just doing what wine did for the ancients. Many of these drugs put people into varying states of impairment and sometimes addiction yet few fundamentalist Christians speak against them. Just another example of lack of understanding or downright hypocrisy that sometimes emerges from Christian thought. Great post Clearday! I've often wondered why those drugs are overlooked in most of Christian culture. I cannot pass judgement, but still it brings up that point of inconsistency in some religious circles. I've also wondered about certain stories in the Bible in which the main character is said to have never imbibed alcohol. In some cases the parents or the character was instructed never to drink. Any thoughts on that?
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