Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on May 9, 2008 0:35:37 GMT -5
I think part of the confusion could be that some think along the following lines 1. Only F&W are saved 2. There are some rules that need to be followed to stay in fellowship with the F&W. 3. Therefore sticking to the rules means you have salvation. i'd agree with that list - with one modification (from my ever-aging memories). being a F&W was put forward as being necessary for salvation, but not sufficient. so i'd get 1. Only F&W can be saved 2. There are some rules that need to be followed to stay in fellowship with the F&W. 3. Therefore sticking to the rules means you have your otherwise unavailable chance at salvation. which is why - imo - Tommy et al cling tightly to the exclusiveness idea. without it, the whole notion of "do I stay or do I go" takes on a different meaning ... /c not yet sufficiently caffeinated
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 9, 2008 2:29:52 GMT -5
... and yet people leave because of the supposed exclusivity. If they really use exclusivity for keeping members, it doesn't seem to be working...
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 9, 2008 2:33:17 GMT -5
Your last statement is a giveaway. You are obviously not a fully committed member of 2x2 if you even contemplate salvation coming form any other source than 2x2 workers ONLY!! Then almost noone is a "fully committed member" and therefore the whole idea of "fully committed member of 2x2" is a sham.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 9, 2008 2:38:45 GMT -5
elle: Just to deny (or confirm? :\) a suspicious idea that has been put forward lately about eastern Australians (see Publications/websites thread on main board): 1) Are you from the east coast of Australia? (especially if #1 is yes) 2) Do you believe Jesus is God? 3) Do many in your area a) believe Jesus is not God, b) believe salvation by works, c) believe in exclusivity of salvation to "2x2s"? 4) Similarly for most of the other claims in the above-mentioned other thread.
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Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on May 9, 2008 2:48:02 GMT -5
... and yet people leave because of the supposed exclusivity. If they really use exclusivity for keeping members, it doesn't seem to be working... of course it doesn't keep all members, I never said that (or at least, without the benefit of coffee i never *meant* to say that). I'm an example of that if you want - i obviously considered being married to an outsider more important than membership. we just don't know how many would leave were the exclusity teaching relaxed - in Ireland, for example.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 9, 2008 2:59:56 GMT -5
But (hypothetically speaking) does it keep more than it costs? It seems that most leave because of what they perceive to be doctrinal errors, including exclusivity. So I would guess that fewer would leave if not for these issues.
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elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on May 9, 2008 3:06:27 GMT -5
elle: Just to deny (or confirm? :\) a suspicious idea that has been put forward lately about eastern Australians (see Publications/websites thread on main board): 1) Are you from the east coast of Australia? (especially if #1 is yes) No, I’m in South Australia 2) Do you believe Jesus is God? Yes, I believe Jesus is divine and that he is God the Son. Most would probably classify me as a Trinitarian, but I’m not really cut and dried. There’s still a lot I can’t yet grasp 3) Do many in your area a) believe Jesus is not God, b) believe salvation by works, c) believe in exclusivity of salvation to "2x2s"? Not sure how useful my answers will be ( I can’t speak for others!) but here goes… Probably most haven’t thought carefully or deeply about these questions. Of those I have talked to about this (a very small minority that like to talk about doctrine and “question” what their parents or the workers have said), all are clear on salvation being a gift, not earnt, some still uncertain about exclusivity (you often hear the phrase "if they were really seeking God he’d bring them in contact with the workers”, and I used to think this myself, too), and many wary of the question about Jesus’ divinity because it contrasts with OT verses about there being only one God 4) Similarly for most of the other claims in the above-mentioned other thread. Don’t have time to look at the other thread just now, will come back alter (maybe- its almost the weekend here ;D)
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 9, 2008 3:14:43 GMT -5
Thanks elle.
Obviously (as you know) Jesus' divinity doesn't really contrast with the OT, but I have heard that idea. They should realize that Jesus said "I and my Father are one" -- so obviously having one God does not conflict with Jesus being God! On the other hand, God said "let us make man in our image". I think people like that need to meditate and pray on verses like Hebrews 1:8 and John 20:28 until they realize what those verses so plainly say and that there is no conflict with the rest of the Bible...
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Post by Sort yourself on May 10, 2008 2:58:49 GMT -5
This is the most dishonest twist I have read about the rules in 2x2ism. Ask those who were exed over not folowing any given rule whether it was a rule or not? iF WORKERS DEEMEMED THE POSSESSION OF A TV SUFFICIENT TO BLOCK MEMBERS FROM FELLOWSHIP, who are you to come on here saying that keeping the rule was NOT a requirement for salvation. OF COURSE the rules are not requirements for salvation, that is why there ois SO much anger that workers acted as if they were and have offended so many good christians. 'clap trap', you seem confused. Do you think they are or are not? If "workers deememed the possession of a tv sufficient to block members from fellowship", it does not matter "who" the other poster is -- anyone can and should say that there is no such requirement for salvation -- are you implying that you believe that if the 'workers' thought that way, that keeping the rule would be a requirement for salvation? Your next paragraph seems to contradict that. Hence -- you seem confused. Sort yourself out if you are confused, CULT. You are usung a 2x2 ploy of turning the accusation back on the accuser and twisting their words. You resemble Aileen, who of course is not Aileen. Is this more clear to you? Workers over years have forced "rules" {call them any other name you choose} upon friends. Preached the rules as part of the gospel of salvation. They usually keep the rules for AFTER the candidate has joined/professed. Then they come down heavily with the threat of losing out, excommunication, shunning, whatever means the result is the same. Your salvation has sometimes depended upon your willingness to get rid of your TV or other impediment, whatever. May exes are angry that the things they were exed for are accepted now by workers and friends. This would seem to be a gross deception. What was once true is always true. or never was true. Now, can you manage that one Calledunto whatever and Aileen? And can you not hogg the board before others get a chance to give a reply. It is getting boring, CUL alia Aileen.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 10, 2008 22:45:30 GMT -5
Read this again:
You are the one that made that statement -- I did not need to turn it around. I can answer your question and say that anyone with a decent understanding of the New Testament can say that keeping the rule is not a requirement for salvation. Is that not good enough for you? You said the quoted text, not me. You say it even more explicitly in the above post:
I know that to be false, but you state it as if you believe it to be true. Do you believe it? You believe salvation depends on willingness to get rid of a TV? You're still confused.
Prove that the things you call "rules" have been preached "as part of the gospel of salvation".
Angry that others don't have to suffer what they suffered? How loving and kind of these "exes" you describe.
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Post by InChrist on May 15, 2008 7:33:00 GMT -5
Prove that the things you call "rules" have been preached "as part of the gospel of salvation".
A worker explained to me in 2001 that having a television would affect ones eternal destiny. Do you think that could that be taken as affecting ones salvation?
What do you believe the whole "gospel of salvation" is according to the beliefs of your church?
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Post by Bubbles on May 15, 2008 9:20:48 GMT -5
Thanks elle. Obviously (as you know) Jesus' divinity doesn't really contrast with the OT, but I have heard that idea. They should realize that Jesus said "I and my Father are one" -- so obviously having one God does not conflict with Jesus being God! On the other hand, God said "let us make man in our image". I think people like that need to meditate and pray on verses like Hebrews 1:8 and John 20:28 until they realize what those verses so plainly say and that there is no conflict with the rest of the Bible... Genesis 2:24 -- Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.Does this mean that Adam is Eve and Eve is Adam? Also, how does believing/not believing in the Trinity affect one's salvation? If we believe in the Trinity, what is our reward and if we don't believe in the Trinity, what is our punishment. Or vice versa.
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Post by ooT on May 15, 2008 14:13:04 GMT -5
<< Also, how does believing/not believing in the Trinity affect one's salvation? If we believe in the Trinity, what is our reward and if we don't believe in the Trinity, what is our punishment. >>
That is a question I also need answered.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 16, 2008 6:44:03 GMT -5
What God do you believe in if not the Trinity?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 16, 2008 6:45:49 GMT -5
Genesis 2:24 -- Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.Does this mean that Adam is Eve and Eve is Adam? Only in flesh.
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Post by Bubbles on May 16, 2008 13:11:17 GMT -5
What God do you believe in if not the Trinity? During past and present time in this fellowship, when one (worker or saint) was asked if they believed in the trinity the answer was, "The word trinity is not in the Bible." End of discussion. I took that to mean no. I believe in the one and only God of heaven and earth. I believe Jesus was God in the flesh. In coming to earth he brought everything heavenly with him and everything that was of God was in him and manifested itself in his thoughts, words and actions. I believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate being that is like the manner of Jesus. Jesus, whose time on this earth in the flesh, taught people about God and taught people what God wanted from their lives. The Holy Spirit continues this and helps to lead and guide us in the direction God wants us to take. It is the Spirit that teaches us. Jesus said he would send the Comforter. In believing this way CUL, how does that affect my salvation in light of what you believe? FWIW, I have never been taught the trinity and have never been able to grasp the significance of it. It was not discussed so therefore not important.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 16, 2008 13:44:08 GMT -5
The trinity is a rather simple concept. It just means that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and that all three are God -- singular God, for they are one. A lot of the discussion and theory that complicates the matter is not really necessary, IMO.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a separate being that is like the manner of Jesus". But I do know that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are listed together in the Bible and are said to be one.
I'm not in a position to judge your salvation, Bubbles, but I do want you to have true beliefs.
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Post by Bubbles on May 16, 2008 15:27:36 GMT -5
What I mean, calleduntoliberty, is I suppose I should have said the Holy Spirit is a separate being also. As in, God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all separate "beings" for lack of a better word. But they all manifest the same desires and hopes for all mankind. They work in unison, in agreement on all things but they are 3 that are separate. I suppose for me, the term "they are one" means just that. That they are one in that they agree and work together in unison on all things.
You did ask me what God I believed in if not the trinity. Is my God not the same God as your God?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 16, 2008 16:58:02 GMT -5
Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'being'.
If you believe all three are God and are one with each other -- that is the trinity. I don't know whether you do or not.
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Post by Bubbles on May 16, 2008 17:33:52 GMT -5
Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'being'. If you believe all three are God and are one with each other -- that is the trinity. I don't know whether you do or not. The word "being" is defined as the state or quality of having existence. Or the fact or state of existing. Maybe the word "entity" would help you understand what I mean. Entity is defined as something that has a distinct, separate existence. To me they are 3 separate entities. I can agree they are all one with each other as in being in unison, one with another. But they cannot all be God. There is only one God, one Jesus and one Holy Spirit. Three different, separate and distinct entities that agree with one another on all things. Sooo, let's put it this way. You believe in the Trinity. I do not believe in the Trinity. In your opinion, is your God different than my God? In my conviction, God is The Father, Jesus is The Son, and The Holy Spirit is The Comforter. They each play a separate role in my salvation. Can you explain your conviction of the benefits of The Trinity?
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Post by gratefulforgrace on May 16, 2008 18:54:51 GMT -5
Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'being'. If you believe all three are God and are one with each other -- that is the trinity. I don't know whether you do or not. The word "being" is defined as the state or quality of having existence. Or the fact or state of existing. Maybe the word "entity" would help you understand what I mean. Entity is defined as something that has a distinct, separate existence. To me they are 3 separate entities. I can agree they are all one with each other as in being in unison, one with another. But they cannot all be God. There is only one God, one Jesus and one Holy Spirit. Three different, separate and distinct entities that agree with one another on all things. Sooo, let's put it this way. You believe in the Trinity. I do not believe in the Trinity. In your opinion, is your God different than my God? In my conviction, God is The Father, Jesus is The Son, and The Holy Spirit is The Comforter. They each play a separate role in my salvation. Can you explain your conviction of the benefits of The Trinity? Bubbles, I know it is hard for the human mind to comprehend, but here are the verses in the Bible that say it clearly and certainly that Jesus is God. Beyond that... You believe that God speaks to your heart? That is the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God, all One. It is beyond the understanding of the human mind. We have to have faith. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen." If they were not all God, and not all One, we could not worship Jesus, nor obey the Holy Ghost, because we are to worship and obey only the One true God.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2008 19:17:19 GMT -5
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knows all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 10:28)
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)
If he is not God, then what is he?
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Post by ali on May 17, 2008 2:32:10 GMT -5
I know of someone who professed in our mission and had a TV. The workers allowed him to profess but were not happy about the TV. I think they thought in time he'd get rid of it when he'd be going to the meetings for a while and would get a clearer revelation. He didn't get a chance because a man in his meeting went round to his house and told him he shouldn't have it. The man stopped coming to the meeting but thanks to the bishop in the meeting, he came back a few years later and professed again. I think he got rid of the TV just around then.
So while the workers didn't say anything, the friends are left with no doubt that tellys are not allowed.
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Post by Bubbles on May 17, 2008 8:22:03 GMT -5
I know it is hard for the human mind to comprehend, but here are the verses in the Bible that say it clearly and certainly that Jesus is God. Beyond that... You believe that God speaks to your heart? That is the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God, all One. It is beyond the understanding of the human mind. We have to have faith. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen." If they were not all God, and not all One, we could not worship Jesus, nor obey the Holy Ghost, because we are to worship and obey only the One true God. This is good. Especially the faith part. Anytime faith is involved your mind releases the need to have everything all neat and tidy. Squared away, if you will. In reading your explanation, just when I thought "I got it", it was elusive once again. I suppose this would be the time to insert the faith part . I have never been taught anything concerning the Trinity. I suppose I could Google it. But if you have anymore illustrations, I would enjoy reading them.
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Post by ram unplugged on May 17, 2008 17:00:15 GMT -5
Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'being'. If you believe all three are God and are one with each other -- that is the trinity. I don't know whether you do or not. The word "being" is defined as the state or quality of having existence. Or the fact or state of existing. Maybe the word "entity" would help you understand what I mean. Entity is defined as something that has a distinct, separate existence. To me they are 3 separate entities. I can agree they are all one with each other as in being in unison, one with another. But they cannot all be God. There is only one God, one Jesus and one Holy Spirit. Three different, separate and distinct entities that agree with one another on all things. Sooo, let's put it this way. You believe in the Trinity. I do not believe in the Trinity. In your opinion, is your God different than my God? In my conviction, God is The Father, Jesus is The Son, and The Holy Spirit is The Comforter. They each play a separate role in my salvation. Can you explain your conviction of the benefits of The Trinity? Whilst in some ways I am more comfortable with the concept of three separate beings, i cannot lose sight of the fact that we are peomised all three will dwell within us. We must have the Christ within, God the Father has promised to make hisabode with us, and Jesus promised to send the comforter to be with us. Clearly each of these three entities or beings exist as, and are with us, in spiritual form. Yet there is ONLY ONE Spirit. That one spiritual entity or being contains the three identities. The only time there was separation was when Jesus died on the cross. The spirit of God was temprarily withdrawn, leaving the "human" Jesus hanging there. God was withdrawn, leaving the human form. It seems there is no spiritual separation of the three identities, therefore they are indeed "one !"
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Post by except for Aileen on May 17, 2008 17:41:30 GMT -5
I know of someone who professed in our mission and had a TV. The workers allowed him to profess but were not happy about the TV. I think they thought in time he'd get rid of it when he'd be going to the meetings for a while and would get a clearer revelation. He didn't get a chance because a man in his meeting went round to his house and told him he shouldn't have it. The man stopped coming to the meeting but thanks to the bishop in the meeting, he came back a few years later and professed again. I think he got rid of the TV just around then. So while the workers didn't say anything, the friends are left with no doubt that tellys are not allowed. Except for Aileen who views TV with workers. Which workers???
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Post by What did Paul mean on May 17, 2008 17:49:48 GMT -5
What did Paul mean when he gave the advice not to "wrest the scriptures"?
Would that not include the confusion whether God exists as three entities or the three in one? It seems a ridiculous to differentiate or dispute the existence of God in whatever form. Neither does it enhance nor diminish God in any way.
This is what is meant by dwelling on theory instead of the issues of life.
Will it have any bearing on our salvation whether we call it the Trinity or God in three persons?
Let's get on with living the scriptures as best we can instead of trying to create differences that don't exist.
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Post by Two Drunks on May 17, 2008 17:53:29 GMT -5
What a completely nonsensical exchange of views. Like two drunks arguing at the road ide over the way home. I have witnessed this subject being debated (usually rather badly!) so many times that I fear for my own sanity. Is Jesus God? Who cares and what difference does it make anyway? What purpose does such a hopeless debate serve anyway?
In a remarkable exchange one claims categorically that there is only one God but then betrays his confidence in this position by asking whether 'my God is different to your God?" thereby holding out the possibility that there may actually be two Gods. Hmm! Then the other, perhaps unsettled by such a possibility, fails to answer this rather fundamental question, but goes on to claim there is only one Holy Spirit? How one knows all these things with such certainty is all rather puzzling.
Is it possible that there are two Gods, two Holy Spirits and Two Jesus's, three of which are one while the other (parallel) three are separate entities? That way both get to be right in the same way that two drunks can both be right about the way home even if they are both heading in opposite directions? Or perhaps they are both wrong. Which, having attempted to follow the debate, seems much more likely.
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